I have an objective question about the debate last night

[WilliamPitt]

I am up in New Hampshire with my mom. Her TV gets two stations, neither of which carried the debate. Ergo, I missed the whole thing. I am asking, in this thread, for a Dean supporter to objectively rate Dean's performance, a Kerry supporter to objectively rate Kerry's performance, a Clark supporter to etc. etc. etc. for all of them.

Strengths and weaknesses. The candidate-war threads aren't helping me. Thanks in advance.

[ewagner]

As one leaning toward Clark

I didn't like his performance last night. He was not as relaxed as usual. It looked like he was trying to get his talking points out rather than directly answer the questions. His facial expressions were bad...he was too "wide-eyed" while answering the questions.

I don't know what it was, but I found myself actaully standing and cheering after Sharpton's zingers....he's a terrific orator.....

edited for clarity

[ShaneGR]

16. Actually, I thought he responded to Liebermans attacks well

Other than that, it is extremely hard with this many candidates to really stand out.

BTW, Lieberman was a complete ass.

[59millionmorons]

25. I agree

He was forceful. I love the two pointer finger hand gestures. He seemed like he was attacking the issue's he was discussing. I liked that, I previously thought he was to laid back.

[bearfartinthewoods]

30. RERUN ON CSPAN NOW 10AM eastern

maybe you can get it from the website Will.

[mrgorth]

1. I never like Dean's debate performances

I thought he answered the questions well enough. I think he could've answered his first question about supporting the troops in a better way than just "well Bush is worse". What that doesn't address is "Hey Dean, you're seen as a peacenik. Tell us why you aren't". Dean needs to sound tougher to me. Also, his "I have as much foreign policy experience as Bush" was a bad answer. Granted, he mentioned Carter and Clinton. I think he should've just referenced Clinton. Two more important things. First, I fail to understand why someone doesn't make Dean get some new suits. Second, Dean stammers too much in debates and this frustrates the hell out of me. I've told HQ he should either take a shot or meditate. I know he's a better stump guy than debate guy but he's gonna have to debate a Rove coached Bush sooner or later. Solve the problem.

[rwork]

2. Will.

Buy your mom a dish network system.( You can get free now.) For around $34.00 per month you can get 100 channels including the 2 c-spans. Fox carried the debate last night. It was hard to press in the hated channel numbers.

[vi5]

3. Objectivity? Huh?

I recognize each of the letters in that word, but after spending too much time on DU, put together it means nothing?

I don't have a candidate yet, but they all seem to be dissapointing me on a daily basis so I don't know what to do any more.

I just hope that whoever the nomination is picks their vice president so that it's an absolutely killer ticket, and I think the only way to do that is if whoever is the nom picks on of their primary opponents.

[VolcanoJen]

4. Edwards debuted a new slogan...

"I wrote it down."

I didn't really understand it, and it honestly irritated me, but he used it over and over again.

"I have formulated an exit strategy. I wrote it down."

"I have a solid plan for health care coverage. I wrote it down."

Usually John does better, and although I'm a supporter (it's him or Clark for me), I would have liked to have seen more substance from him this time around. He definitely performed better in the CNN debate.

- Jennifer

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. advice from Graham?

also challenges Bush's ability to do the same- can he write? (NOTE: I didn't see the debate)

[AP]

19. I just read through the transcript at the Wash Post....

...and I don't remember "I wrote it down"...but he does talk about his real solutions booklet at least once, which you can get from his web site.

The point is, you're never going to get substance in the debate. A long answer is three four-sentence paragraphs. Pointing ot Real Solutions IS about as substantial an answer as you're going to get.

I didn't see the debate, and it's really hard to transfer the transcript to a sense of how they performed and looked. It seemed like everyone got to make their points. The Conventional Wisdom section was interesting.

I've been reading comments here, and I have to say there's a huge disconnect between the comments here, like this "I wrote it down" comment, or saying that Kucinich flubbed the 300 vs 35 murders thing -- he got it wrong, but he corrected himself with more, accurate numbers (17,000 since 72. Also, when you read the transcript, Dean looks bad when he reads the ad copy -- it sort of confirms what Kucinich was saying. Also, Clark's line about Shelton -- if anyone knows what's motivating him to lie, please let me know -- was a pretty good way to talk about that issue.

Edwards sticking up for Kucinich and CMB re speaking time was great (since they're all in the bottom three together usually).

I didn't think CMB's excuse for attending Abache's son's funeral in Nigeria was at all satisfactory. Nigeria is a seriouly fucked up country. Whereas standing up against apartheid in the Illinois state house is great, it's a no-brainer. Cheney is about the only person serving at a high level who was visibly on the wrong side of that issue. Nigeria, however, was more nuanced, and I'm not impressed with anyone showing support for Shell Oil Chief of Police Abache, whether they do it on their own dime or otherwise.

There were a few other small things which stuck out in the transcript...it's worth a read.

I'd love to know the time breakdown again. I guess I could do a word count from the transcript.

[bearfartinthewoods]

24. he was trying to make the point that he has developed plans

and presented them for all to see. maybe it was a swipe at wafflers?
i'm not sure. it didn't irritate me as much as you. and i thought he did quite well however, i did miss about the middle third of the debates so maybe my estimation might be different if i had seen all of it.

as a Kerry supporter as well, he had the best one-liners, except for Al. who ever is writing his material knocked it out of the park.

[Padraig18]

5. Dean supporter

I'd give Howard a B-/C+; he didn't suck, but he didn't do well. I think Kerry 'won' the debate because he was articulate, funny, relaxed and confident. Dean 'survived', because no one blew him away, so in conventional terms, you could say he also 'won'.

[Eloriel]

26. I think he did better this time than any before -- he keeps

improving.

Truly, the only one who "wins" these packed debates is Al Sharpton, hands down.

Dean's performance was a little uneven, but better than some of the other debates, esp. the first ones.

The questions, IMO, were a little more substantive this time, for all the candidates. That helped it be a more satisfying debate.

I thought that the Faux gang (Wm Krystal and Jaun Williams) had a very good point afterwards: Dean "won" because no one knocked him down. As the frontrunner, he stays frontrunner if they don't deal him some serious deathblows, and they didn't.

If you want to see some other Dean supporters' take on the debates (and they can be VERY critical), you can always check the blog comments that were running during the debate.

Eloriel

[displacedtexan]

28. interesting observation!

i have posted, on numerous occasions, that perception alone motivates the masses (this explains why nixon lost the debates in 1960). while each candidate last night championed the 'purpose' of the party (to save us from further * destruction, both physical and economic), only two (imho, as a national collegiate debate judge)) presented a clearly articulated 'vision' (a road map toward real national security, global cooperation, and a sound economic policy here at home): edwards and kerry.

perhaps this is because both edwards and kerry have many years of experience as legislative orators.

despite edwards' awkwardly repeated references to his plans being 'written down,' he did manage to communicate the vision of reinventing a prosperous america.

kerry needs more time to shape his arguments and rebuttals (again, probably a result of his floor oratory/extempore experience); however, he does seem to be the sound byte master! last night, he pointed out to gov. dean that we elect a president, not a staff. this quote has already appeared in numerous op eds this morning. as for criticism of his gun safety tangent, this was planned. he had to articulate his position before the largest possible audience, in order to have quotes in the can for each of the highest-rated issues when reporters begin in earnest to define each candidate's stances in january. this indicates smart campaigning.

as posted by many (in many threads) already, gov. dean has to concentrate too much on his public speaking style; therefore, communicating his message is hindered. senator lieberman is toast; his negatives far outweigh his positives (remember, i'm talking about perception only). rep. gephardt doesn't do enough to make him stand out among the crowd. gen. clark is unprepared to face tough questions quickly on a variety of issues. the others are wonderful human beings, but they lack the perceived gravitas necessaary.

above all, each of us can defend our candidates of choice ad infinitum; the perceptions of the dnc powers-that-be are the only ones that really matter at this point: state race money and support depend on national money and support. it's not trickle down; it's trickle up: if state-level candidates go along with state party leaders, races get 'targeted.' the same goes for national races. the candidate most likely to meet the party's needs (as per purpose and vision) will most likely get the nod. remember what happened to mccain when the party circled the wagons? what makes people think that dems are any different?

[blm]

48. Whoa...you make alot of good points.

.

[Capn Sunshine]

42. I conceed this is not Deans best format

But its one of the reasons I LIKE him. Dean is a out in the crowds guy. He despises the debate format, he is better when he's allowed to deliver his unfiltered message; he gets frustrated when he's not.

I didn't see the debates as my neighborhood was on fire. But I don't really CARE how he does ; at this stage of the race only the hopeless wonks (no Offense, Wonk!) are even tuned in.

So natter away and dither and micro parse,the message that makes one a front runner doesn't come from the tube. It comes from the heart. And Dean has plenty in this department.

[THUNDER HANDS]

6. I didn't watch it either

Frankly, I don't see a point anymore. Nobody is gonna rise and fall based on their performances in the debates.

The field is too big right now. Frankly, all Dean has to do to maintain his lead after the debates is to not walk over to Kerry and slap him upside the head with a sock full of marbles, ala "Homie Da Clown" from In Living Color.

When the field gets narrowed, I think the debates will be worth watching again.

[Skwmom]

7. Have you read a transcript?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2003Oct26.html

[Skwmom]

8. Looking at the transcript I think it's somewhat misleading

For example, it gives the impression that Lieberman was applauded for his attacks which definitely was not the case.

[fknobbit]

9. The only reason I watch the debates

Is to watch Kerry and Sharpton get in zingers. You gotta love Kerry when he says things like "the republicans believe God to be". Again he gets the prize winning funny of the debate. I dream of this guy in a debate with the shrubster.

[wtmusic]

10. A Dean Supporter Who Would Like To Know

why Dean can't change his incorrect misleading ad about his 'opponents'. Very disappointing.

[henslee]

11. They were all stiff. Amazingly the moderator was chewing gum...

It was weird... you could even see it rolling around in his mouth.

There are too many running to have a debate... the whole thing seems pointless.
The General was disappointingly stiff and was struggling to answer the moderator coherently on a big question. His dark hourse charm is not as obvious as it was before. Kucinich was forgettable but lovable. Dean looks fatter, like his collar too tight. I dont ever remember what he said. Edwards talks weird and is not terribly specific. Kerry was presidential but like what does that mean these days. Lieberman is insane and egostistical to even be still running. Sharpton may be amusing but he is not a factor... and I still remember what a punk he used to be back in the day.

[maha]

40. "His" mouth? The moderator was a lady!

Are you talking about one of the questioners?

[unfrigginreal]

12. Dean supporter

I wasn't impressed with Dean's performance last night. He didn't suck, but he came off to me as though he was just there playing prevent defense. At one point he got grumbles from the audience, while rebutting a Kerry jab, for using the "bush-lite" line. Funny thing is the audience gave Sharpton a standing ovation for saying the same thing without using the term "bush-lite."(Sharpton was amazing BTW)

He received 2 jabs from Kerry and one from Kucinich. He was not given an opportunity to rebut one of the Kerry jabs, but even when he did rebut he just came off as though he were trying to hard to stay above the fray(a losing position, in my opinion, if someone is going after your jugular)

I initially thought that his closing was great, but after seeing it a second time I'm not sure that anyone but his supporters understood that he was talking about his campaigns' success and how they achieved it.

I don't think that he hurt himself with this performance but I don't think he picked up many new supporters either.

[VelmaD]

13. Don't feel like you're alone...

I haven't had cable for over 5 years so I missed the debate last night too. It's interesting to read the responses so far from folks critiquing their own candidates. Sounds like we didn't miss much.

[KoKo]

14. I thought Kerry handled himself the best, and I'm a Dean/Kucinich

supporter. What impressed me about Kerry (and I am NOT fond of him) is that he actually made a good attack against Bush and his mishandling of the "Invasion and Occupation." He seemed to be more engaged last night than in the other debates (I've watched them all), so I will give him credit for redeeming himself a little in my view.

Getting a transcript would be the best, although the dynamics of the live event are missed, and they are often the most important. I also thought that Edwards handled himself well in that his "charm" came across more fully in this debate (that will matter with some voters).

It was disappointing that Kucinich again wasn't given enough time to speak.

Sharpton won the Night, though. He articulates the issues that are important to ME more than any other candidate. I think other DU'ers felt the same about his performance, because he did very well in one of the DU polls.

[HFishbine]

20. Kerry?!?!

Kerry completely avoided the question about re-instituting the draft by using up all his time to talk about previous questions. Looked like he was side-stepping. And that closing... it was one big set-up with no point, punchline, or conclusion -- just seemed extraneous. Left me thinking, "And, what's your point?"

[TheDonkey]

23. I'd have to disagree

Kerry was the calmest, most prepared, and had some great zingers. I think he did an excellent job this time around and he even looked healthier (maybe some grecian for men).

[HFishbine]

27. Disagree?

So he did answer the question about the draft?

[TheDonkey]

35. I think we all know the answer to that question

he has said it many times before: Internationalize the force and bring other countries in it reducing the burden on our Armed Forces.

He did talk about other questions that he's not been able to comment on rather than that question which he's answered 20x before. I don't believe it was side-stepping.

[KoKo]

33. As I said I'm NOT fond of Kerry, don't like him at all. But, I thought he

was more pulled together than I've seen him in the other debates. I was trying to be objective. I thought that's what the poster of the original question asked. Even though I don't support Kerry, I noticed he was more "up to it" last night.

Sharpton made the best Democratic points of all of them. But, then, he has nothing to lose. :-(

[Snellius]

34. As an early Kerry supporter, I reluctantly disagree

I have to admit -- though I still admire him greatly, especially for his environmental stand -- I'm beginning to understand why people find him smug, distant, aloof, vainglorious. He has that talking down and "I know better" attitude that rubbed people wrong about Gore. For example, at the end, he launced into an admirable defense of gun control (though he incorrectly referred to an article in the W. Post. It was NY Times). The effort was admirable but he still talked in terms of the "Brady Bill" and "Assault Weapons Ban Bill" which did little to convince other than sound wonkish. He tries to be "Hey, man" or funny but he still orders Swiss cheese on this Philly cheese steak.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. Swiss cheese on a Philly cheese steak

I wonder how many votes Kerry will lose because of 'that' vote? :eyes:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

38. Swiss cheese vs American? The class war perceptions are HUGELY

important in the mind of Mr and Mrs TV Nation. That's one of the ways Dumbya appeals to 'just folks' with his calculated Texanisms.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

39. It's neither: Cheez-whiz

At least John can counter that his 'class' didn't disqualify him from serving in Vietnam.

http://www.thetoughdemocrat.com/archives/000195.html

[Uzybone]

44. Yes.....and being wonkish

is very bad. Its that kind of stuff that gets us a moran like Bush as president. I keep hoping us Dems get more serious this time around.

[CMT]

15. objectively speaking on Dean

I think over time Dean's debate performances have improved, but I still think compared to some of the others he needs work--I think he needs to relax more and add a little humor and perhaps be a little bit more spontaneous. His answers at times (like some of the others) sound canned. Yet he made no gaffes that I'm aware of and he answered most of the questions pretty well and while he could have been stronger on defending himself as having limited foreign policy experience--he is correct in saying that he had as much as Reagan, Clinton, and Bush II. I think he could have added that without being a major foreign policy brain he was right on in regards to Iraq.

Overall I would give him a B-

Even though I don't much care for Lieberman I think he actually performed best last night. He is consistent on Iraq and attacks Kerry and Edwards on their inconsistencies in supporting the resolution but now opposing the $87 Billion. He isn't in the debates to win over the liberal activists which I believe he realizes he will never win over, but to try and win more moderate/conservative democrats as presenting himself as such. So in effect, Joe does less pandering to key democratic groups than other candidates.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. Kucinich

did a good job of articulating his exit strategy for Iraq and received enthusiastic applause for it.

However, he seemed to be talking past the questions in some cases, and his closing statement was weak and unfocused.

The only stand-out speaker was Al Sharpton. I absolutely loved his answer to the questioner who asked what the middle class should sacrifice to balance the budget. He said something to the effect that working and middle class people were already sending their children to die in Iraq, and that it should not be too much to ask rich people to pay more taxes.

He was in top form all evening.

Otherwise, every speaker had good moments and bad moments. I liked Kerry a lot until his "huh?" closing statement about guns, because it seemed odd to bring up a totally new point in what was supposed to be your all-in-one "vote for me because..." appeal.

[slinkerwink]

21. I give Dean a B-

Dean did a great job of rebutting Kucinich, but then Dean seemed to peter off, and left himself open to two attacks by Kerry. He did a fine job of staying on course in the debate though.

He's done better in other debates and the reason why he wasn't so fiery is probably because he's sick.

[TheDonkey]

22. You should catch a repeat!

It was a pretty good debate.

What surprised me most was that CMB did not do very well this debate like I usually hope. She blatantly avoided questions and didn't have much facts. Kucinich seemed more aggrivated that usually also did not make his best apperance.

I was very pleased with Kerry's performance and would say, "he won" but won't. Kerry had some great one-liners, excellent homework on what he was talking about, and never faltered when he was questioned. The only think holding him back from being a winner is he was mostly shining when he had to protect his ideas or himself and really didin't state anything mouth droppingly important otherwise.

Dean is just too stiff and scripted during the debates. This is not his time to shine during these things. He wasn't awful but didn't say anything remotely memorable.

Liberman was extra conservative on FOX methinks. He went looney and was just attacking everyone except Dean.

Edwards did not seem as confident as usual. He was sweaty and evaded questions a lot. He did a good job of defending himself again Lib. attacks though.

Sharpton is just Sharpton and rocked the house w/ passionate anti-bush bashing.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

29. Dean supporter here (and take on Kucinich, who I also like)

He did ok, but there was nothing to write home about. In sports analogy terms, I felt like he was trying to run out the clock, to stay on top.

He looked fairly relaxed. My guess would be that he didn't gain any followers, nor did he lose any.

------------

DK: I like him, may vote for him in the primary, and I realize he'll never win.

Kucinich flubbed a statistic last night. He mentioned that Detroit had 300 murders in the month of September. The Fox-bots came back to him later and, in fairly merciless fashion, corrected him. He thanked them for the correction and stated that there had actually been 30-someodd murders in the month of September. It was an awkward moment; I believe it didn't do him any favors.

He also got tepid, polite response on his Dept of Peace initiative. I think Kucinich lost some ground last night.

--------------

For what it's worth, I believe that Carol Mosely-Braun's performance was very near flawless. She comports herself well, knows her issues thoroughly, and is well-spoken. I wish she was given more creedence.

[AP]

51. As I noted above...

CMB's response to the Nigeria question might have looked good, but it didn't read well in the transcript. It looked like a dodge.

[KittyWampus]

31. Clark Supporter- He Did Fairly Well

He did VERY well countering snipes

He did only fairly well on economic issues... no real specifics... he has them and I don't know why he doesn't use them. He is calling for a cut in Pentagon spending... perhaps he's waiting for some reason???

On edit: Kerry did VERY well. He is a class act... a seasoned pro. When he takes swipes he does it as a gentleman...

[robbedvoter]

32. Clark - his best yet - FAUX better than CNN?!!!???

Here's my favorite part:

"We used to call charges like that "McCarthyism" when they came out in the 1950s. 


Now, the simple truth is that Hugh Shelton is an old friend of mine;
I've known him for 20 years. But we had a significant disagreement
about policy. 

I believe the purpose of the United States in Europe was to follow
through on our commitments to bring peace to Bosnia and prevent another
round of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, in Kosovo.

CLARK: I believe there were 1.5 million Albanians there who were in
danger of being thrown out of their homes and having their lives and
property at risk.

Some people in the Pentagon disagreed with me. I went through the
Pentagon and recommended we use diplomacy backed by the threat of
force. I had the permission of the Pentagon to do that. I worked, I
warned, I struggled to prevent a war. And when it finally came down to
it, I had to fight it, lead it, and we won it.

But let me tell you two things. Number one, I stand up and fight for
what I believe in. And nobody is going to see the United States on my
watch humiliated in a military mission because we don't have the
gumption to follow through on our requirements. 

And number two, when you put American troops in harm's way, you better
not do it without a plan and a strategy and the determination that
you're going to prevail. 

That's what I stood for. We were successful. I received two
distinguished service medals, the Presidential Medal of Freedom for
that kind of leadership. 

Why Hugh Shelton would say that now, I have no idea.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2003Oct26.html

[abcdan]

36. A memorable moment

I'm an Edwards/Clark guy, but to me the most memorable moment came from Sharpton (no surprise there).

When that smarmy Fox news guy, Cameron, asked, "Reverend Sharpton, along the lines of budget politics, it's fairly evident that all of you up there would prefer to see the wealthiest Americans shoulder a greater part of the burden. What sacrifice would you put upon average working families to carry their share of the burden in the coming Sharpton economy?"

Part of Al's response was, "In fact, it is on our backs that you are being able to do what you've been able to do. We've been the ones that have beared the brunt of the American economy. We just have not shared from the prosperity."

I LOVE how Al doesn't take crap from the moderators. He doesn't simply defend the position but he dishes it back to them with the implication, "how dare you spew out your Republican spin!"

[AP]

52. The truth eminates from that man like he's God's messenger on earth,

don't you think?

[Egnever]

41. My take on dean and others

Deans my guy till the end.

I thought last night was not a great night for him however. He seemed confused in some of his answers and unprepared. There were a couple points were he made his point very well, but he was also attacked a couple times with no chance to rebut and i think it hurt him.

The second time kerry went after him and they went to comercial dean clearly made a fuss to get a chance to rebut the point but I think by the time the break was over and they got back to it he had lost what it was he was rebutting and was trying to address the comentators questions and kerry's jab in the same answer and i think he flubbed it.

That aside I dont think he got hurt. I agree with what a lot of others are saying. I dont think he gained much support from the debate but I dont think he lost anything either.

Lieberman slaughtered himself I think. I will be amazed if he doesnt take a huge hit in the polls behind this.

Kerry I think had his best performance to date. Despite the fact that he practically never addressed the original questions he had his points prepared and delivered them well. I think he has figured out that the strategy in these debates is to take your time and make the points you feel you need to make. I think it worked well for him and agree with the strategy. I personaly cant stand the man but i think he did well last night.

Ghep said nothing IMHO or less than nothing. It was all about why hes not bush over and over. Bush bad ghep good cause clinton was good and ghep like clinton. Just no substance there I dont think he did himself any favors.

Edwards over all was decent I think he got nailed on the patriot act think th ough and I think it will hurt him. Till last night i thought he was coming on strong but the patriot act question was really bad for him and i think it will hurt him. I was moving edwards to my number two spot before last night but now he slides backwards some.

Kucinich ...... HMMM Denis had a mixed performance last night. I think he was great on his Iraq exit strategy and scored points. However his clear disgust with the moderators and his attempted attack on Dean didnt go over well i dont think. Also his answer on the department of peice will leave people going huh? He was trying to make a point i think of the dangers of the detroit streets but I think his misquote and his trying to connect those deaths with his department of peace diluted his message and made it apear strange.


CMB was affable as always. Not a contender IMHO but once again presented herself as inteligent and worthy of a position somewhere.

Sharpton was the man. Yet again this guy comes out and says what needs to be said. He is definately slaping the donky! I will miss him if/when he drops out. Never thought i would say that but the man is just rocking! His statement regarding the I/P situation was the closest to the truth I have seen on the national stage ever to this date. Unfortunately Lieberman followed and spouted the PC propaganda and took away from Al's message but I will have a soft spot for al from now on for his courage to stand up and speak the truth on this devisive issue.

hmmm oh Clark. Clark did nothing. I dont know if he helped or hurt himself. I think a large portion of Clarks support comes from the Idea of clark and I dont think he did anything to define himself l;ast night. His answers said Ill make things better but not how. There isnt much time to talk so i guess he can use that as an excuse but of all of them up there hes the one that needs to let his suporters and others know who he is. I dont think he did anything last night to make his positions clear.

Overall I think sharpton Won the debate. Kerry got the second best performance out of it and dean Didnt get injured. The rest either held thier ground or lost some IMHO.

It was a lively debate though and far more entertaining than any of the previous ones. The questions for the most part were good ones with the exception of a few that were completely rude. "Do you think you time is over ghep?" WTF? I dont care if he was in last place that sort of question is just out of line.

Good debate my guy didnt do as well as I would have liked him to but life goes on and its still his to lose so I am ok with it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

43. "I personally can't stand the man" (Kerry)

I'm not sure why this is so but if you could put your emotions aside would he have a chance? Something tells me this drives a LOT of people toward Dean and away from Kerry.
Personally I tend to have more respect for people who are well informed, highly intelligent, and good articulate speakers.

[knowledgeispower]

46. Kerry is just an a$$hole

He reminds me of this line from the Coen Brothers movie The Big Lebowski. The Dude is talking to Walter after Walter pulled a gun on a competitor (a "pacifist with emotional problems") in a bowling alley. Walter asks The Dude if he was wrong (about the competitor's foot being over the line when he bowled) and The Dude responds: "No Walter, you're not wrong, you're just an asshole!"

That is Kerry right there. I like a lot of his ideas, but he comes across as a condescending prick. Can you say liberal elitist?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

47. Hmmm. Chalk one up for complete and unadulterated

prejudice.

[dsc]

57. This from a person who calls Dean supporters

fuanamentalists and criminals. Sorry but if you aren't the last person I will take lessons in manners from you have to be close to it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

58. You got the wrong guy- I never called anyone that

andI would never generalize like that. I said some were fanatical in their uncritical view of Dean.

[JohnKleeb]

59. Wrong person I know who you are talking about though

[killbotfactory]

50. I've gotten a strong sense of entitlement from the Kerry campaign

Especially when Lehane was still on board. It rubs me the wrong way.

[blm]

54. That's why I never liked Lehane. Didn't in 2000 and less in 2003.

I think he's a GOP operative.

[Egnever]

49. No he wouldnt have a chance

He comes across to me as pure politician. His IWR votew was pure politics IMHO he knew better and stated it in his speach but voted for it anyway. His answers to everything time after time is couched to make sure he offensds as few as possible without actually making a stand.

He personifies everything I hate in politics. An unwillingness to do anything without calculating the political gain combined with pure posturing to try to apear hip.

He comes off to me as pure carreer politician through and through.

Last nights tax example is a perfect ilustration of my point. Regardless of the fact that he uses whoevers fair and balanced numbers to make his point he was misleading people the same way bush does by pullling the one huge tax break example out of the picture to make his case when the reality of the situation is the majority of people didnt get anythiong like that tax cut. You have to fit a very specific criteria for that particular tax cut and he knows it yet uses bush tactics to suport his position. Its lying to my face and I dont like it even a little bit.

Listen to what howard said 60% got less than 600 dollars 60%!!!!!!

kerry's example effects what 1%? 5%? whatever it is its BS and i am sick of the washington spin. It makes me want to puke kerry does it almost every time I see him speak and I will never give him a pass for it.

I will vote for him against bush if I am given that choice. But in my mind if he gets the nod there will be no change whatsoever in washington overall. And i will do what i can to see him replaced by someone else after his term is up.

Washington as usual is dead to me the years since bush has come to office has shown me clearly how few of them there are actually worried more about what is right than what will get them re-elected.

I would rather vote for Kucinich. He is a complete nutcase if you ask me but at least he sticks to what he thinks is right.

[Egnever]

53. Hmm perhaps a little harsh

When i think about kerry I get angry. I feel like he is trying to hoodwink me and others by spining his positiions to be palatable and i dont like it even a little bit.

My biggest problem with kerry is I dont see him as a leader. I see him as a follower. Sure hes been in the senate for years and come down on the right side of a lot of things. But I just dont see any shining examples of where he actually leads in anything. I see him jumping on the bandwagon all over the place but not actually leading.

He is great in the senate as he seems to recognize decent legislation for the most part and jump on board. But I just dont see him being the originator of good ideas, He seems like a me too guy. Not only that but its me too and give me the credit for it!

And dont get me started on the vietnam veteran thing.

Yea he got three purple hearts and other medals. Three purple hearts and two days off for his injuries makes me squirm. I dont associate purple hearts with injuries that dont even take you out of action. And touting them as examples of courage does just the oposite for me. It screams to me of oportunistic and degrading to all of the vets who get purple hearts for lost limbs. The fact that he threw others medals over the wall and took credit for it for a long time bugs me greatly and lessens him in my mind to a terrible degree. I find it completely dishonest and again oportunistic. Again taking credit for something he really didnt do. Sure the effect garned from it was a decent one but it would have been just as impactfull if not more so to have acredited it correctly in the first place.

Quite honestly his whole vietnam gig leaves more questions for me than it makes me think of him as honerable and brave.

I dont think kerry is the devil. But i think he is and has been a purely political beast out of touch with anything aproaching normal every day america other than what his advisors tell him normal middle america should look like or is like.

Once again he will get my vote in the general if it comes to that but It will greatly diminish my hope for politics in america. I am tired of yes men. I want leaders right or wrong. Our system is setup to handle leaders right and wrong that why we have checks and balances. THe two party entrenchment we have going now is destroying those checks and balances. Kerry exemplifies for me the party man and the party man is wrong as much as he is right. If we had real leaders bush would not have been able to run roughshod over this country the way he has. Instead we have the pukes walking lockstep with the man no matter how wrongheaded the policies are and it is destroying this country. Recently that lockstep is starting to break and its about damn time.

Now if we can just break our own problems with lockstep ionside the dem party,

[DrFunkenstein]

55. Would A Cold Political Calculator...

Refuse to accept PAC in any of his races?

Go against 80% of his own Party on Defense of Marriage?

Investigate and tell the unwanted truth about POW-MIAs in the Rambo era?

Take on Oliver North before anyone knew his name?

Get kicked off Iran-Contra because Dems feared he would create a second Watergate?

Take on the CIA for turning a blind eye to drug smuggling?

Filibuster attacks on ANWR?

Protest civilian casualties from "free fire zones" to top brass WHILE in Vietnam?

Create a major "clean election" bill with Paul Wellstone?

Fight terrorism for 15 years before anyone knew what it was?

---

Kerry has taken alot of thankless positions because of conviction. You may disagree with Kerry on IWR, but his vote was based on beliefs he held since 1997. He was hardly comfortable with his vote, but he felt it was a vote he had to make in a position responsible for American lives in the long term. Kerry dealt with Saddam since going back to the 80's. This is not something he went lightly into.

I'm sorry if you can't look past the vote, but after looking at his position at the time, do you think that he wouldn't have handled it magnificently?

[proud patriot]

45. Objective Dean Supporter Checking

He did fine , a little flat , but came thru
unscathed IMHO

[Lady President]

56. Kerry supporter (bash free)

Because I'm a complete nerd I actually took notes on the debate. Here are a few comments about Kerry:

Strengths: This was Kerry's strongest debate so far. He's noted as being a wonderful public speaker and he finally showed it. (I haven't been incredibly impressed with his debate performances until last night.) He actually brought the funny! There is another thread with one-liners, but he was second to Sharpton (of course) with the one-liners. Made strong point about tax cuts and his foreign policy experience. In a word: Poised.

Weaknesses: His closing statement was disjointed. I know that he wanted to mention his gun control policies with this crowd, but his attempt to tie it to his opposition of special interest groups sounded awkward. His hair looked like it had been colored. I remember the stories about Clinton's hair and would hate to see another series of hair articles. All the candidates, including Kerry, need to stop when the bell rings.

I'll spare you any of the comments I could make on the others. :) (Sharpton and Edwards were charming.)