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AP: Bitter Debate Over 'Birthright Citizenship'

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RSchewe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:39 PM
Original message
AP: Bitter Debate Over 'Birthright Citizenship'
By DAVID CRARY
AP National Writer

NEW YORK (AP) -- A proposal to change long-standing federal policy and deny citizenship to babies born to illegal immigrants on U.S. soil ran aground this month in Congress, but it is sure to resurface - kindling bitter debate even if it fails to become law.

At issue is "birthright citizenship" - provided for since the Constitution's 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868.

Section 1 of that amendment, drafted with freed slaves in mind, says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."

Some conservatives in Congress, as well as advocacy groups seeking to crack down on illegal immigration, say the amendment has been misapplied over the years, that it was never intended to grant citizenship automatically to babies of illegal immigrants. Thus they contend that federal legislation, rather than a difficult-to-achieve constitutional amendment, would be sufficient to end birthright citizenship.

more...


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ILLEGAL_IMMIGRANTS_BIRTHRIGHT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


What do you all think of this?

Someone brought this up in a conversation with me the other day and the article stood out to me when I saw it. I never put much thought of it until that conversation and I wonder what supporters and opponents argue on this issue. After hearing more about the issue I can form an opinion about it. At this point though, I am honestly pretty ignorant about this topic.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. only a buncha fuckin' bigots are bringing this up, if you ask me (nt)
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Lori Price CLG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great signature picture, RSchewe! n/t
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. It infuriates me. .
do they want the Constitution to read: "All those naturally born on American soil and members of the Republican Party will be considered citizens?"

This is absolutely preposterous. And they act as if we have not had wave upon wave of immigration from all corners of the globe over the years. It is a ridiculous and un-American proposal.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't know what to think of this
On one hand, we are one of the few countries that awards citizenship upon birth and I find this odd. On the other hand, it does seem racist to oppose this policy.

I think the question to answer is this - if this policy were abolished, would it help reduce the number of illegal immigrants entering the US? Will it solve a problem or just create a new one?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Two-tier citizenship is not acceptable. Ever.
It also requires a constitutional amendment. It cannot simply be legislated.

Another flag-burning, gay marriage garbage issue to prove they've been working, not stealing and partying, when they go home.
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RSchewe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Indeed. Here is a Knight Ridder article from earlier this month on this.
KR Washington Bureau | 12/07/2005 | Conservatives look at ending birthright citizenship for immigrants

(snip)

Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., who serves on the House immigration subcommittee, said it would take a constitutional amendment to deny birthright citizenship.

"You can only assume they are offering this for political reasons and not a legal reason," she said.

Many conservatives have been pressing for stronger actions against illegal immigrants, such as building a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border. A national poll last month by the nonpartisan Rasmussen Reports found that 49 percent favored denying citizenship to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants, with 41 percent opposing such a proposal.

Supporters note that few countries - none in Europe - offer birthright citizenship.

more...


http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13352283.htm


It sounds like a constitutional ammendment will be necessary. And we all know how hard it is to get one of those put into law.

This sounds like a red meat issue on first glance, but I am curious to know what justification European nations use to oppose it or not adopt it.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. It has not been "misapplied"
It is the Constitution. It is perfectly clear that it applies to

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States"

These people are insane. And dangerous. If they can take constitutional rights and protections from one group (those born here, of whatever sort of parents), then they can move on to people of color. Then gays. Then women. Then people of the 'wrong' political persuasion. Then to people of insufficient means. Then the developmentally challenged.

It's WHY we have the constitution. To protect our rights and liberties.



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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. This crud is just nauseating ..
what part of the 14th don't they understand?

Fortunately, there is a snowball's chance in Hell of them getting such an amendment through. How are you going to decide who gets to be a citizen? Only Native Americans? Only white males? People will take to the streets in massive protest if this even comes close to being passed in Congress. Then, of course, it would have to be ratified by the States. No way that is going to happen.

Hope these guys rot in a Hell of their own making for even thinking about a proposal this hateful.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. you're going to take to the streets? you and what army?
you're going to take to the street to protest a man's right to earn even the minimum wage for his labor

you're going to take to the street to protest our right to protect our national borders

no "people" would take to the street in any massive protest if the law were changed or just correctly enforced under the principle that no criminal is allowed to profit from his crime

i think most decent people would like to see once-good jobs pay a living wage again, which they won't do as long as people are given powerful incentive to come here and work for slave wages, however, we are shouted down by the forces that profit from continuing to entice people here to work for nothing

most americans don't hire slaves, why don't we leave it to the rich and conscience-less to defend policies that benefit them at our expense?

i suppose you are confident that YOU are too gifted to ever see your wages undercut by an illegal immigrant, whoo hoo, well, karma is coming

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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Well, I guess I disagree profoundly with you.
First of all, I have a law degree and have spent several years studying the Constitution. Citizenship is a whole different topic than immigration policy.

I've lived in California all of my life, spending many years working as a social worker. I have never seen an immigrant take a job that would have been taken by an American citizen.

And, one thing I'm sure of, out here, people would protest in great numbers at any proposal that sought to limit the granting of citizenship.

Such a proposal would NEVER pass the California legislative system. NEVER.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. a criminal is not supposed to profit from crime
Edited on Mon Dec-26-05 07:27 PM by pitohui
it is against usa law & against common law in all countries i know of for a person who commits an illegal act to benefit from their crime

illegal aliens should not have something as valuable as usa citizenship awarded to their children

it should have never been allowed, but the conservatives and apparently even some people pretending to be progressives want a class of slaves working here forever, which means they want illegal aliens working here to save them a few bucks and who cares if it costs the working citizen his or her job as no one who has to pay taxes and live in a real house can compete w. slave labor not paying taxes and living in a tent

just look at all the knee-jerk claims that it is racism to oppose illegal immigation come straight out of the gate

we are supposed to be silenced by the shouts, and most people will be

i'm sorry, it is not racist to not want to hire a slave or to allow my neighbor to hire a slave for pennies on the dollar

illegal immigrants should be deported when found, those who employ them should be heavily fined so that citizens can become competitive again in once-good jobs like construction, and, no, as a consequence, you cannot be awarding automatic citizenship to babies born to ILLEGAL immigrants

our founding fathers would shit kittens if they knew the constitution was being interpreted in this way, you will note, this custom does not go back to founding of the country or the constitution but to 1868, it says so in that very article you cite

the intent of law was never to invite people to break law to give birth on american soil

but, since we don't have the will to do anything abt this issue & for sure the rich republicans who hire these near-slaves don't, nothing will be done & eventually the one thing that makes usa special (its wild and open spaces) will be gone forever, never to be regained


it saddens me to see how quickly even "progressives" fall in line to please rich republican interests, all it takes is to pull out the word "racist" and they will be assimilated
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. The child is innocent of the act of the parent.
That is a concept that precedes America, I think.

The child being born free shouldn't be considered "proceeds from crime".
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. mexico is a free country too
it's fairly racist to assume that only the usa is a free country

unfortunately, like it or not, a dependent child is a team w/ its mother, you can't split them up, so you ARE rewarding the parent

unless you are willing to split up parent & child, which i don't think so
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Guess you've never heard of cases where the mother is deported but the
child, a native US citizen can stay. Thus families are indeed split up. It happens.

Also cases where the US born children go with the parent when the parent is deported.

You contend that having a child in the US is a free ticket for illegals to stay in the US. The Feds don't concur and they do deport parents who are here illegally.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. So you figure the folks who enacted the 14th amendment were unaware
of immigration to the US? They just forgot about it when they crafted the language of the 14th amendment? They simply had no clue what they were doing and what the outcome was, despite the considerable immigration to the US in the 1800's?

And what were the US laws regarding immigration prior to and including 1868? US immigration laws of the time would seem relevant if you're so sure of what the enactors didn't intend yet neglected to specify in the 14th amendment.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. they were unaware of people crossing the border to have babies, yeah
as it's a phenomenom of the late 20th century & they were not psychics, yeah, of course they were unaware

we repealed prohibition (also a constitutional amendment) because, YOU KNOW WHAT, sometimes the framers of the law screw up, sorry to pop your bubble, but to err is human
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Look up the immigration laws at the time and tell me what constituted
Edited on Mon Dec-26-05 08:05 PM by Garbo 2004
illegal immigration prior to 1868 since you've contended that the enactors of the 14th Amendment didn't intend what they wrote and the 14th Amendment is being misapplied.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. YOU are quite right, Garbo 2004.
Moreover, the Amendment is first and foremost interpreted per its 'four corners,' or plain meaning. And it seems plain enough to me - if you are born here, you are a citizen. They did this to avoid bigoted criteria. It was right then, it is what is right now.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Giving birth is not illegal ...
and the fact of birth is what results in citizenship.

They need to be clear about what is really behind this bill: racism - for it is aimed at Mexicans. When I was born, I immediately became an American citizen; everyone else should get the same privilege.

Immigration and wage policy is different than the 14th Amendment, which is part of the Constitution (that's why it is called an Amendment).

How do you know the intent of the law? How much constitutional research have you done on it?

And, if I may ask, how familiar are you with the problem? In your particular state, have you worked with immigrants?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well, those brown skinned babies are a real threat to 'Murka.
They'll be eatin' up all that Gerber's baby food that should be gobbled up by good 'Murkin babies - preferably with blonde hair and blue eyes.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Why should rethugs care about this issue? They already support these:
Edited on Mon Dec-26-05 07:36 PM by HypnoToad
1. Giving H1B visas, et al, to foreigners, shipping them to America to learn our customs, our languages, and education for our high paying jobs so they can help devalue said professions.

2. They support offshoring. There is no net difference between that and rampant immigration.

I needn't go on. The fuckers only care about short term greed and have no plans, never mind having no clue, about a truly globalized world. America may not be cost-effective, but it doesn't stop them from keeping the cost of necessities high all the same...

I could go on for ages. And there's no point to.


Edit: Spelling, though nobody should have to explain every reason for editing unless they feel like it... :)
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RSchewe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Good points. Thom Hartmann boils Republican economic policy down to....
two words:

Cheap Labor.


I agree. So this makes me wonder why these people would have these contradicting views.

This must be a split in the party dividing two radical factions, the isolationists, the Pat Buchanan types, and the pro-cheap labor corporate whores.
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Dem Agog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...
The beauty of that phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" is that those immigrants came to this country and made it the great nation it is today.

Now so many of their descendants want to deny birthright citizenship to immigrants. Those tired, those poor, those huddled masses have changed. Many are now rich, cut-off from their heritage, and proud bigots.

If we do this, then we should dismantle the Statue of Liberty as well.

The terrorists have won.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. yes, we should, if that is the attitude taken
if we cannot think clearly and accurately because we have to always parrot in lockstep to a stupid poem, if a stupid poem means more than securing our national boundaries and preventing people from working as slaves, then HELL YEAH

no poem, no statue, is worth the resurrection of slavery

anyone who thinks the intent of the 14th amendment was to encourage people to work as slaves or near slaves in this country...wow is all i can say

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. The intent of the 14th amendment is exactly what it says: those
born in the US are US citizens. Not criminals or slaves but US citizens.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
26. This is a hot issue for a lot of people
and it's often not a left/right issue. It's one of those things which, if our founding fathers and those who followed might have ever envisioned happening in our country, might have chosen a different route in the wording of the Bill of Rights or as a constitutional amendment.

Xenophobia is rampant in our country. It doesn't come in one size or shape fits all. People who are as liberal as could possibly be are often uncomfortable about the issue as much as anyone on the right. It's a dirty little secret that many keep hidden away, paying lip service to a set of liberal values, but secretly hope that they never have to deal with the situation in reality.

On one hand, they defend the "birthright citizenship" that is part of our Federal constitution, and on the other hand, they have severe qualms about allowing "illegals" any rights that tie them to our country.

When I lived in Southern California, I saw day workers every single day taking on tasks that most people wouldn't even consider. I ended up having to admire them for their pluck--putting needs over wants and desires. They had to feed their families, and no job was too repulsive to them as long as the end was achieved. Whether they were legal or not, they had a work ethic which was solid and consistent. And they did jobs that many of us would never even consider, never mind actually do with any conviction.

It's surprising to some that even many of our poorest have adopted some not so wonderful attitudes. Even our poorest are spoiled rotten in comparison to some from other countries, where the conditions are so atrocious that cleaning toilets and sewers in the United States is preferable to living a day-to-day existence in their own country.

The work ethos in the US has gotten steadily worse over the years. While entitlement programs have helped many of those in the most dire of situations, there are those who have used the system to their advantage, and as a result consider themselves above others. As someone once told me, the class system in our country has gotten to the point that as long as there are people who are worse off than themselves, people are often happy with their lot in life. And they will continue to be relatively happy as long as the status quo is maintained. It's a human fallibity that we can enjoy poverty or being low on the social ladder as long as we're not the ones on the bottom rung. Instead of being happy that others can get a leg up from their circumstances, we're more pleased when we can keep others down under normal circumstances. And thus, while we might denigrate illegal aliens who simply want a better life for themselves and their families, we bitch and moan that they're taking jobs away from "Americans", and at the same time are grateful that we're not in the same class as these people and that they are the ones on that lowest rung. They take the jobs that we would never take, and yet we still bitch and moan.

We hear stories all the time about how some people are brought over to the US to be essentially slaves, in such jobs as sweat shops, prostition rings and other horrible and unthinkable positions. We see it in our TV dramas, in newspapers and in the news. We will mutter to ourselves about how horrible it all is, and who would ever allow themselves to be put into such a position. But we forget that what we see as waking adults in the United States of American is all an illusion. That underneath our own reallities there is a side of life that we hope never to see and never WANT to see, either. We forget that people in other countries often find a refrigerator box a more roomy alternative to the shacks they live in; that the garbage from a good restaurant is more nutritious than what they get to eat on an everyday basis; that life in a sweat shop or prostitution ring is preferable to life or death in their own countries. We forget that even the poorest amongst Americans have color televisions, and that those in other countries might find our set of values all so mixed up and out of whack with what is happening in these places.

The third world conditions that resulted from Katrina, for example, showed a side of the reality that many were shocked by. They failed to realize that what we saw in Louisiana and Mississippi was as normal to many others in the world than we would ever care to see. Many could close their eyes--and hearts--to that reality, but every day, many of us are closer to that reality than to what was always considered the American "dream." We try to block out the grimness that is true, unadulterated poverty, but it's there, and it's not going away any time soon.

People from other countries, including--especially--our neighbor to the south, know that even living on the streets in the USA is worth coming here to. And frequently, amnesty and naturalization can take the sting out of living on top of steam vents for months--even years--at a time. And for many who make it into the country and manage to make some sort of living, the ability to succeed means that anything they can do to alleviate the suffering of their families abroad is worth it.

A century ago, this promise brought many people to the US. There were many who tried--and died--in transit. We all know at least one story of someone who escaped from politcal and financial turmoil elsehwere. In our own recent past, we have seen stories of those who have tried to come here from another country--Cuba, Mexico, South America, Laos and Cambodia, the former Soviet Union, and pretty just about everywhere. If we know anything about the history of their country, we are either in complete sympathy with their dreams or at least allow them the benefit of the doubt. If we see them somehow as "freeloaders" coming to the United States to take the "dream" away from a "native" American, we resent their presence and their desires for their families. But it's the ignorance--the galling xenophobia--that we must deal with--the idea that somehow, these people are intruders in our land. They are no more intruders than most of us are, unless any of us can claim to be completely descended from a Native American. We ALL have in our past otherwise someone who immigrated from a foreign land. We ALL have the blood of an Asian, a European, an African, South American or Australian somewhere in our past. We are ALL aliens in America, and some of us not so long ago.

One of the disagreements with birthright citizenship is the idea that these people are getting something for "free." Being an American citizen does not give anyone something for "free"--ever. The only thing being an American citizen can give a person is a promise. The promise that freedom exists, and that those determined to work hard can have a chance that they might not have in their own country. And yes, these are many people homeless here, and there are many who are unable to make that promise work for them, regardless of their citizenry. And yes, the system fails many of these people on a daily basis. But in truth, there are just as many who strive daily to make their dreams into reality and who do succeed. And there are just as many who want to keep others repressed without any ability to make that dream come true. And regardless of all else, the world we live in is not going to change any time soon in a major way, because many people are too satisfied to allow others to hop over them on that social ladder. So there will always be resentment over others coming here and trying to better themselves.

There is another factor as well. Many times, immigration to the United States is a money issue. If you are rich, your chances for becoming a "wanted" citizen is much, much higher than if you are poor and are coming here essentially with just the clothes on your back. And yet it is the poorest among us, the most down and out, who need to be able to come here and save their families from such dire straits that they're merely lucky to be still alive. If we look back to the earliest years of the twentieth century, we know that America was a mecca for so many who escaped death and horror in their own countries. It is only when shown in context of history that we realize that for a large part, we have been too blind to the rest of the world's situation to appreciate what we have already. We ARE spoiled--spoiled enough to forget the rest of the world and what is going on in other countries, even today.

I can not say that I agree with every part of the right to citizenship of those who have illegally come into the country, but I can say that too many Americans are too complacent to even consider the alternatives for these people. And I think that many here don't have the drive and the ambition that compels many of these "aliens" to come here and succeed. Many people here think that simply being American is all they need in order to manipulate the system, and don't--and won't--use their abilities to further themselves, especially when it comes to jobs that are often too dirty or too low for them to even take.

Some complain that these illegals take away jobs from Americans, but it's not true. And frankly, I think that many who complain about illegals need to spend a week in the shoes of someone who has come here to put food on the table for their families, and who will work at the least desireable jobs for that same week. We might want to bitch about someone coming here as an illegal just to "play the system" but it really doesn't wash in the real world. In the real world, even the lowest American citizen still wants to see someone lower on the rungs than himself. And that is the status quo in which repukes delight.
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