Who is more Evil? Osama or Bush?

[Octafish]

Osama murdered 3,000 -- according to the U.S. Government.



Bush murdered 30,000 -- by his own estimation.



Should the word "more" be disregarded? Especially when the Iraqis had NOTHING to do with 9-11.



Evil is evil. Size doesn't matter when one person is hurt by the intentional act of cruelty of another.

From where comes the real evil?

Who or what is the leading source of the world's evil?

Who is truly evil?



Hey, un-Admirable Poindexter! These are rhetorical questions meant for purposes of discussion.

EDIT: Substituted guitarbush photo.

[madokie]

1. I feel safe in saying bush* is the most evil person any of us will

ever know the likes of before or after. this little piss ant is... well you know.

[Octafish]

10. Like father, like son.

Poppy Bush ordered the invasion of Panama in order to remove his CIA stooge and drug-running ally Manuel Noriega from power. Estimates are that 400 to 2,000 innocent people died in just one neighborhood.

EXPLORING STATE CRIMINALITY: THE INVASION OF PANAMA

Ronald C. Kramer
Western Michigan University

Title: State Crime, The Media, And The Invasion of Panama.
Authors: Christina Jacqueline Johns and P. Ward Johnson.
Publisher: Westport, Connecticut: Praeger.
Year: 1994.

Title: The Panama Deception.
Director: Barbara Trent.
Writer and Editor: David Kasper.
Narrator: Elizabeth Montgomery.
Released: Empowerment Project, Chapel Hill, North Carolina. A Rhino Home Video Release. (1992) 91 minutes.

One of the most important, yet neglected, areas of criminological inquiry is that of state criminality. The nation-state, through its organizational structures and state managers, has historically engaged in numerous violations of its own criminal and civil laws, as well as various forms of international law. Many of these state crimes have been exceedingly violent, destructive, and costly. Despite the frequency of state criminality and the enormous social harm that it causes, the discipline of criminology has paid scant attention to this form of illegal behavior. Only a few criminologists have undertaken any empirical or theoretical work in this area. And a recent analysis of criminal justice and criminology textbooks shows that "political" crime of any type gets very little coverage. (Tunnell, 1993a).

The neglect of crimes by the state, however, appears to be changing. A number of works dealing with state criminality have appeared in recent years (Chambliss, 1989; Perdue, 1989; Barak, 1991; Kauzlarich, Kramer, and Smith, 1992; Tunnell, 1993b; Kramer, 1992; 1994) and some textbooks now contain a chapter on the topic (Beirne and Messerschmidt, 1991; Sykes and Cullen, 1992). The book and film under review here are part of what I hope will be a growing trend among criminologists and others to explore the nature, extent, causes, and social control of state criminality.

Both the book by Christina Johns and P. Ward Johnson and the Oscar winning film by director Barbara Trent, focus on one specific act of state violence: the illegal invasion of Panama by the United States in December of 1989. State Crime, The Media, and The Invasion of Panama, and The Panama Deception, both cover the same general ground in presenting their case studies of this illegal armed intervention. Both sketch out the broad historical context of U.S.-Panamanian relations, document the shift in U.S. policy toward General Manuel Antonio Noriega, critique the reasons that President George Bush offered for what he called "Operation Just Cause," analyze the complicity of the U.S. media in the affair, reveal the destructive consequences of the attack on Panama and its devastating aftermath, and offer some thoughts about the future of the United States and the region of Latin America.

Along the way, both the film and the book address a number of important criminological concerns. In addition to simply raising the critical issue of state violence and political crime, these works present some critical insights into the political economy of state criminality, the nature of international law and selective criminalization, and the problems of social control concerning institutional and organizational offenders.

Johns and Johnson open their book by sketching out the political and economic context in which the invasion of Panama took place. They use the concept of "rollback" to analyze U.S. foreign policy actions in the postwar period. Rollback is "the determination of U.S. policy elites to return to a precommunist world, with the final goals of eliminating communism in the USSR and establishing free-market capitalism worldwide" (p.6). Rollback emerged as an especially potent force during the Reagan-Bush years and in fact, "the new world order" touted by Bush "was nothing more than a vision of successful rollback with the United States in control" (p. 6).

CONTINUED...

http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol3is2/state.html

Where there is no vision thing, people will perish. And disappear.

[AntiCoup2K4]

2. Trick question

Because Osama himself is a creation of the Bush Criminal Empire.

[Octafish]

11. Excellent point. They're also business buddies.

From the late Bush biographer, Jim Hatfield, written a few weeks before 9-11, so please forgive what may seem a light downplaying the threat from Osama.

Why would Osama bin Laden want to kill Dubya, his former business partner?

By James Hatfield

Editor's note: In light of last week's horrific events and the Bush administration's reaction to them, we are reprising the following from the last column Jim Hatfield wrote for Online Journal prior to his tragic death on July 18:

July 3, 2001—There may be fireworks in Genoa, Italy, this month, too.

A plot by Saudi master terrorist, Osama bin Laden, to assassinate Dubya during the July 20 economic summit of world leaders, was uncovered after dozens of suspected Islamic militants linked to bin Laden's international terror network were arrested in Frankfurt, Germany, and Milan, Italy, in April.

German intelligence services have stated that bin Laden is covertly financing neo-Nazi skinhead groups throughout Europe to launch another terrorist attack at a high-profile American target—his first since the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen last October.

According to counter-terrorism experts quoted in Germany's largest newspaper, the attack on Dubya might be a James Bond-like aerial strike in the form of remote-controlled airplanes packed with plastic explosives.

Why would Osama bi Laden want to kill, Dubya, his former business partner?

CONTINUED...

http://www.onlinejournal.org/Special_Reports/Hatfield-R-091901/hatfield-r-091901.html

Back in July 2001, before it was fashionable to do so, Hatfield did a bang-up of job of pegging the basic cowardice of George W Bush.

It's a bloomin' onion without a scorecard wrapped in an enigma of lies.

[against all enemies]

3. Cheney is the Ace of Spades, his evil trumps all others.

[Octafish]

12. Cheney is very, very, very evil. Consider his support for Dr. A.Q. Khan...

Sneer likes to hasten the spread of nuclear weapons -- for profit, of course:

The Veep and Pakistan

Cheney Helped Cover-Up Nuclear Proliferation in 1989, So Pentagon Could Sell Pakistan Fighter Jets

By JASON LEOPOLD
Counterpunch
March 8, 2004

When news of Pakistan's clandestine program involving its top nuclear scientist selling rogue nations, such as Iran and North Korea, blueprints for building an atomic bomb was uncovered last month, the world's leaders waited, with baited breath, to see what type of punishment President Bush would bestow upon Pakistan's President Pervez Musharaff.

Bush has, after all, spent his entire term in office talking tough about countries and dictators that conceal weapons of mass destruction and even tougher on individuals who supply rogue nations and terrorists with the means to build WMDs. For all intents and purposes, Pakistan and Musharraf fit that description.

Remember, Bush accused Iraq of harboring a cache of WMDs, which was the primary reason the United States launched a preemptive strike there a year ago, and also claimed that Iraq may have given its WMDs to al-Qaeda terrorists and/or Syria, weapons that, Bush said, could be used to attack the U.S.

Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and top members of the administration reacted with shock when they found out that Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan's top nuclear scientist, spent the past 15 years selling outlaw nations nuclear technology and equipment. So it was sort of a surprise when Bush, upon finding out about Khan's proliferation of nuclear technology, let Pakistan off with a slap on the wrist. But it was all an act. In fact, it was actually a cover-up designed to shield Cheney because he knew about the proliferation for more than a decade and did nothing to stop it.

Like the terrorist attacks on 9-11, the Bush administration had mountains of evidence on Pakistan's sales of nuclear technology and equipment to nations vilified by the U.S._nations that are considered much more of a threat than Iraq_but turned a blind eye to the threat and allowed it to happen.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold03082004.html

Why this isn't in the press corpse is beyond my ken.

[the_real_38]

4. A tie ...

... they're both right-wing nut jobs who claims 'God tells them' to kill other people.

[Karenina]

7. Sorry, no proof of OBL's guilt!

[Octafish]

13. A momentary zen.

Know the part. Know the whole.

Evil incarnate. Evil incarnate.



Asshole. Isshule.

[yknot]

5. What did Osama do?

All the pics in your post are Bush crimes.

[shance]

6. We don't know do we? We've been so lied to by this Administration

and the only information we have received about Osama has come from the Bush Administration and their obedient media sources.

I believe Osama was more of a patsy than anything. A convenient scapegoat that many believe is dead now.

[yknot]

9. Yep. n/t

[Octafish]

14. True. It's a guess.

We do know the Bushes and the bin Ladens have done a lot of business together.

Mr. James R Bath straddles both camps, so to speak.

Here are a couple of documents from government archives:

Duhbya Did BIG Business with Bin Laden Family

The relationship is made clear by one James R Bath, Texas Air National Guard flying buddy of George W Bush. There’s a big difference between Bath and Bush, though. Bath served in Vietnam. Honorably.

In 1972, both officers were grounded because they refused, er, failed to get their yearly medical examination. That 1972 is the same year the Pentagon started testing pilots for drugs is just a coincidence, I’m sure. Here’s the official US Government document chronicling the above:



In 1976, Bath got a great job as the official United States business agent for two of the wealthiest merchant families in Saudi Arabia—the bin Mahfouz (banking and BCCI) and the bin Laden (construction monopoly). To be in charge of their U.S. invested petrodollars must’ve been a most interesting endeavor.

The above I'll purdy up for its own post, thanks to your suggestion.

More importantly: A hearty welcome to DU, yknot. I like the 'tude.

[Hyernel]

8. Osama is honest about his agenda. Bush is not.

[Octafish]

15. It's hard-wired: Bush folk are incapable of telling the truth.

BushWatch has created an excellent compendium. An example:

EXCERPT...

Bush's Trifecta Of Lies

President Bush, speaking to the nation this month about the need to challenge Saddam Hussein, warned that Iraq has a growing fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used "for missions targeting the United States."

Last month, asked if there were new and conclusive evidence of Hussein's nuclear weapons capabilities, Bush cited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency saying the Iraqis were "six months away from developing a weapon." And last week, the president said objections by a labor union to having customs officials wear radiation detectors has the potential to delay the policy "for a long period of time."

All three assertions were powerful arguments for the actions Bush sought. And all three statements were dubious, if not wrong. Further information revealed that the aircraft lack the range to reach the United States; there was no such report by the IAEA; and the customs dispute over the detectors was resolved long ago. --10.22.02, Washington Post

CONTINUED...

http://bushwatch.org/bushlies.htm

You are correct, Hyernel. Bush is hiding his agenda.

Published on Monday, October 29, 2001 in the Mirror/UK

Hidden Agenda Behind War on Terror

by John Pilger, Former Mirror chief foreign correspondent

The war against terrorism is a fraud. After three weeks' bombing, not a single terrorist implicated in the attacks on America has been caught or killed in Afghanistan.

Instead, one of the poorest, most stricken nations has been terrorised by the most powerful - to the point where American pilots have run out of dubious "military" targets and are now destroying mud houses, a hospital, Red Cross warehouses, lorries carrying refugees.

Unlike the relentless pictures from New York, we are seeing almost nothing of this. Tony Blair has yet to tell us what the violent death of children - seven in one family - has to do with Osama bin Laden.

CONTINUED...

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1029-02.htm

Pilger's article was written in October 2001 about Afghanistan before the illegal Iraq invasion.

Gee. People STILL support the evil turd?

[proud patriot]

16. I'm locking this thread

A consensus was reached by moderators and we feel this thread is quite inflammatory . Comparing these 2 people
is inappropriate on Democratic Underground .

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground