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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:27 PM
Original message
Corporate America May Be in Big Trouble
In this season of giving, the NY Times may have unwittingly given those who detest Corporate America a reason to celebrate.

It's now being reported that not only has Bush been knowingly violating the Constitution for three years by illegally wiretapping US citizens, but that telecommunication data (phone calls, emails, and other such electronic communications) has been voluntarily, and cooperatively given in massive loads to the NSA, likewise WITHOUT a court order or warrant.

It has become apparent, to this blogger, why publications like Barron's (posted via Mydd.com) have come out against what this President has done regarding SnoopGate. Barron's is a publication that, according to John Aravosis of AMERICABlog, is read by every CEO in the country and is as repudiable as the Wall Street Journal for the articles they write.

Quite simply, in the pages and pages of privacy practices that your phone, email, and cell phone company have sent you over the last several years, all in an effort to convince you that your data will not be given out to anyone, does it mention anywhere that the company reserves the right to share data files on you with the federal government without a court order, a legal requirement to do so, due process, or probable cause? Mine don't.

<http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/24/175120/91>

This could get very interesting folks.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. It certainly could get interesting
I never thought about the corporation's involvement. Good catch.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's a perfect example of old-style Corporatism of 60 years ago
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 06:33 PM by Selatius
Nothing more classic an example than the merger of state and corporate power in the literal sense. The problem is they got caught. What will they do now? That's the interesting question.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I am of the opinion corporations of 60 years ago were somewhat accountable
It seems that an MBA preesident has allowed the boundaries to become cloudy - the hell with morals and ethics - if it's margionally legal it's good to go, and if it's deemed illegal, just change the law to suit your needs.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Tell that to IBM, which sold counting machines to Nazi Germany
They knew the machines were being used to tabulate and keep track of the number of people inside their concentration camps and forced-labor camps. Tell that to Prescott Bush and everybody else in the business world who made money, while millions died.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Holy crap.
Hoooooly CRAP.

:popcorn:
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hey even corporations aren't safe from Dubya
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 06:48 PM by C_U_L8R
Dubya's little NSA see-all machine is the ultimate in insider trading from the outside
All kinds o mischief can be stirred up with White House approved corporate espionage
.. whether or not a company is a friend of Dubya.
And all to profit the Bush Family Evil Empire.

these folks are crooks...
as they say just follow the money

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Holy crap, with this sort of info.... one could know just how much
to bid on no contract jobs in Iraq..... wait..... nevermind.
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mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. Another good reason to get corporation out of elections (a real election
reform) and remove person-hood from corporations. I have said this before and at this time there are movements to this effect.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. What's happening here is in fact typical of capitalism:
particularly in a world of increasing or impending scarcities, the imposition of fascist tyranny is the only way the capitalists can maintain their profits. The telecommunication companies are merely doing what Big Business has always done, just as the Republicans -- always fascist at heart -- are (once again) peeling away the velvet slipper of "compassionate conservatism" to reveal the Nazi jackboot beneath.

This is old news to those of us who are old-time socialists or Marxists, but 40 years of corporate-controlled public schools so thoroughly brainwashed everybody born after about about 1945 that far too many Americans neither recognize the historical truth of class warfare or understand that capitalism (however necessary it might be) is nevertheless pure evil at its core: the most murderous and malignant greed imaginable perversely rationalized into a virtue.

As to what will happen, the answer is absolutely nothing. Bush will remain in power, the ultimate achievement of the global oligarchy. Tyranny will become ever more obvious (and ever more oppressive), and the American public -- already cowed into submission (and terrified of losing the few trinkets it has left) -- will do nothing at all: the failure of the Democratic Party to become a true opposition party denies the citizenry the only leadership around which opposition might have mobilized. The now absolute certainty of stolen elections further guarantees that even if such mobilization were to take place, it would be effectively neutralized at the ballot box.

History shows that once a citizenry is this methodically oppressed, except under very unusual circumstances liberation can only come from without.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. This may be true....
in the case of companies which deal with limited natural resources such as oil, otherwise healthy non-corporatist capitalism benefits from competition.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Capitalism put Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet and Bush into power.
It also put into power Herbert Hoover (the Great Depression), Eisenhower (the McCarthy Era), Nixon (Watergate), Reagan (resumption of capitalism's traditional War Against Working America and the Poor), Bush senior (more WAWAP), and Clinton (WAWAP including slow genocide in the form of welfare reform).

For someone who is not part of the corporate oligarchy -- not a member of the real ruling class -- to endorse the spurious notion that capitalism has a benign side is nothing more than proof of how diabolically successful the 40-year brainwashing I mentioned above has actually been: conditioning the slaves to love not only their shackles but the lash itself.

I will grant that capitalism is essential -- at least at this sad and quite possibly terminally ill stage of human development -- but it is essential in the same way nuclear power is essential: it has to be caged and controlled lest it run amok and destroy everything within reach.

As to your notion of "healthy non-corporatist capitalism," the core motive of infinite greed is identical whether the enterprise is as big as Exxon or as small as the corner candy store or a back country crossroads grocery. The only difference is in scale: the big corporations own the U.S. government (and have the U.S. military as their goons and the CIA as their death squad); the little businesses own local government and have the local police as their goon squad. In many parts of the nation, small business has its own death squad too: the Ku Klux Klan -- the leadership of which is overwhelmingly small business owners: another example of the intimate, father-and-son connection between the profit motive and fascism.

As to profit (and the related notion of "growth"), these are precisely the concepts by which capitalism transmogrifies greed into a virtue. But greed is the one genuine human evil -- and the core evil from which all other evils spawn. Big business or small, "profit" is turning all workers into slaves, and "growth" is literally destroying the planet.

As to the Democratic Party's role in this dismal equation -- what the party could be (the vehicle for restoration of the New Deal and thus truly the savior of the People) versus what it has become (merely another institution by which the oligarchy enforces its increasingly tyrannical will) -- here's Noam Chomsky on the subject:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=20106

(Thanks to relative newcomer missouri dem 2 for posting the Chomsky link early yesterday.)

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm afraid I have to disagree...
It's true that there is a common stereotype of the greedy businessman who is often corrupt and may tend to pull his or her weight when it comes to gaining favors from elected officials or local government agencies. I suppose the nature of the "business" is that it may tend to foster and reinforce much of this behavior.

There are also instances of businesspeople who break this stereotype and who in fact may be quite generous and beneficent. There are also those who are quite benevolent, yet still corrupt... go figure.

The best example of someone breaking this stereotype that I can think of was my grandmother, who, I believe, was considered the first businesswoman in her county. She always placed other people ahead of herself and lived in a modest apartment all of her adult life. She also did fulltime charity work after retirement and well into her 80s. If I could be 1/10 as good as she I would be doing extremely well.

The point is, not all businesspeople or business owners are fascists and I don't believe capitalism necessarilly has to lead to any unhealthy relationships with government or law enforcement at any level. Grouping any unrelated class of people together and saying that they all display the same types of behavior is, in and of itself, bigotry.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Interesting the attempt to suppress historical truth by denouncing...
its disclosure as "bigotry": structurally identical to the rightist ploy of censoring birth-control information as "pornography." The tactical parallels aside, the effort to silence legitimate criticism of capitalists and capitalism -- and thereby serve the down-presser agenda of keeping the population in maximum ignorance -- provides a perfect illustration of the methods that allow the plutocrats to expand their tyranny unchecked, so that the United States will soon be the slave-state they have intended to make it since the 1930s: the Fourth Reich.

Thus too the persistence in U.S. history -- indeed some would claim this is America's only relevant historical thread -- of business-run-amok thievery: Credit Mobilier, Teapot Dome, Dixon-Yates, the Billy Sol Estes swindle, the Savings and Loan debacle, Enron -- and that's just off the top of my head, without bothering to get up from my desk and walk over to my bookshelves.

In close and revealing lockstep with the thievery is the death and destruction resulting from greed: the Coal Creek War, Swannanoa Tunnel, the Fraterville Mine Disaster, the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, the Matewan Massacre, the Mingo County War, Love Canal, Exxon Valdez, the Bhopal Horror -- again just off the top of my head, without access to Google or my books.

As to your claim that "(t)here are also instances of businesspeople who break this stereotype..." I can respond only that never in nearly 45 years of journalism (and never in 65 years of living in a business family) have I met a single one: not one. But since you cite a contrary (and therefore exceptional) example from your own family I will (of course) accept your testimony at face value and also applaud your rare good fortune: no doubt your grandmother was a remarkable woman.

But (and not to detract from your grandmother's goodness) surely you know even fascists can be "quite generous and beneficent" -- witness, for example, the Nazi German businessman/official John Rabe, who helped save thousands of Chinese during the Japanese rape of Nanking. Or the Mafia dons who give literally millions to Catholic charities. Yet the fact benign human qualities can survive in a malignant system does not minimize the malignance itself.

As to your implied contention that charitable work is somehow proof capitalism is ultimately benevolent, in truth charity (particularly of the arrogant, condescending sort we have in the U.S.) is especially pernicious. By the enchantments of its feel-good reassurance and its hypocritical self-gratification, charity blinds the public to the unspeakable realities of life in the United States -- the harshest, most savage (and most rapidly deteriorating) living conditions in the entire industrial world. Charity thereby deliberately obscures the original problem of greed -- the source of capitalist savagery -- and all the resultant problems of capitalist exploitation; this (and the concurrent shaming of the poor) is precisely charity's underlying intent. Bottom line, if capitalism were as you claim, there would be no need for charity.

As to your assertion that "not all businesspeople or business owners are fascists," I would reply that while this may certainly be true on the conscious level, the capitalist subconscious is entirely different matter: thus the thoroughly well-documented tendencies of business communities the world over to embrace fascism the moment their interests are threatened, whether by workers demanding their rights, by growing scarcities of supply, or by some combination of both.

Indeed capitalism IS fascism: the führerprinzip (however disguised) that rules the workplace; the übermenschen/üntermenschen hierarchy of owners/executives versus workers; the demand for instant and unquestioning obedience; the predatory relationship of a business to its customers and competitors -- a corporation is in fact the microcosm of a fascist state: forever seeking lebensraum in the form of ever-expanding growth and profits, forever striving toward ever greater subjugation of customers (cheaper-to-produce, ever-more-badly-made products at ever higher costs) and ever greater exploitation of workers (more work for less pay).

Admittedly there are many companies -- the healthcare cooperative to which I belong is a perfect example -- that start out with the best of intentions. But capitalism is like quicksand: it sucks everyone down to its lowest level. Hence -- merely to stay afloat in the capitalist jungle -- the co-op has become as exploitative as any Fortune 500 company, paying ever-greater maximum dollars to its definitively greedy executives (whose only skills are exploitation and manipulation) and ever-more-minimal dollars to the workers, in this instance doctors, technicians and nurses (who -- irony of ironies -- had to strike earlier this year to save their own healthcare benefits). The same sort of thing happens to individuals in this system: note how -- in America -- reform politicians are almost always corrupted. Only a few -- a very tiny, insignificant few -- manage to remain immune.

But even as you imply I am a bigot, you tacitly admit I speak the truth: "I suppose the nature of the 'business' is that it may tend to foster and reinforce much of this behavior" -- the very savagery we socialists decry. Therefore shame on you, not only for playing the "bigotry" card but for trying to spin my criticism of capitalism into a personal attack on your grandmother.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hear, hear! Well said, sir.
It is testimony to the effectiveness of cradle-to-grave indoctrination that we believe that capitalism is somehow inherently benign or even beneficial. It is a system that rests upon the coercive power of the state to create an entitlement - the entitlement of 'ownership' to which some portion of the wealth created by the labor of others is 'redistributed.' That there is no clear accountability of nor limit to that reapportionment is testimony to the corruption in the system. There is no bound. Currently, I see approximately 2/3rds of the wealth created by labor in S&P500 corporations being 'reapportioned' to ownership. (The net operating income per employee is currently around $86,000/year.) This doesn't even begin to describe the many-tiered laundering of funds through successive profit-extracting outsources of products and services comprising the 'modern' corporation, not does it reflect the regressive multi-tiered tax system that is increasingly burdening the worker in lieu of the 'owner' to whom the benefits of governance are inequitably allocated.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. A brilliant and fascinating commentary.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. You certainly have one side of the argument down
The fact is that throughout human history we have always struggled with political and economic systems and there is not one of them that doesn't have it's warts.

"The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists." Willi Schlamm


The rise of unchecked global corporations and unrestrained capitalism are just the latest chapter in the human story. In relative terms, we have only recently emerged from the jungle to create political systems based on units larger than clans or groups. We still carry very deeply within us the basic instincts that allowed us to survive as a species for millions of years. Violence, greed and subjugation are basic instincts that no economic or political system yet devised has been able to fully restrain.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. As to "basic instincts," socialism at least offers the potential...
of a ladder by which to climb out of the cesspool of "(v)iolence, greed and subjugation," while capitalism -- by contrast -- would thrust us deeper in, making virtues of the very evils we need to transcend if humanity is to survive.

Indeed this is the true horror of the Bush Administration: it has unleashed what I call capitalism's "inner tyrannosaur" -- a combination of greed and malevolence that in its savagery far exceeds anything I have seen in an entire lifetime of encounters with the dark side of American life: outsourcing, downsizing, looting of pensions, forcible wage reduction, union-busting, methodical destruction of the socioeconomic safety net, imposition of censorship, deliberate agitation of racism, sexism and homophobia -- not to mention the runaway Third-Reich-type imperialism we see in the Middle East -- and every bit of it unabashedly in the name of the concentration of wealth. Not the "compassionate conservatism" we were promised (and by which so many of us were deliberately defrauded), but rather a kind of fascism that moves ever closer to genuine Nazism with every new and terrifying disclosure: ever more brazen peeling away of the now-obviously-bogus velvet slipper of "compassionate conservatism" to reveal the hobnailed fascist jackboot we now know always lay beneath.

Would that the ghost of my father appeared so I could question him about the Great Depression and the years preceding it. Were the capitalists this openly and defiantly vicious? Was the Republican Party even then such a willing, gleeful embodiment of fascism? Had the oligarchy mustered an army of stormtroopers equivalent to today's terrifying legions of Christian Fundamentalists -- "Dominionists" and "Reconstructionists" who make no secret of their intent to resume public witch-burnings? Was liberty itself in such obvious jeopardy?

Because in the America of my father's childhood, strikers were routinely machine-gunned in the streets by National Guardsmen, I think I know what his answer would be. I think he would shake his head and say that capitalists and capitalism are no more or less malignant than ever, but that at least in his day there was a strong grassroots pull toward socialism -- the Communist Party was the third largest political party in the United States, controlled many city governments and was by far the best organized party in U.S. history (with local self-help groups throughout the nation that would later prove vital to the war effort). Moreover the grass-roots impetus was so hugely powerful it finally found expression in the New Deal -- the Marxist truth of class struggle wed to the democratic principles on which the United States was founded: tolerance of capitalism as a necessary evil, but with government solidly entrenched as protector of the people against capitalism's innate malevolence.

But there is no corresponding impetus today. In other words -- even though economic collapse seems repeatedly averted -- today we are much worse off: just as Al Gore himself has said, worse off than we have ever been. Methodically oppressed by the Republicans and totally betrayed by the vast majority of Democrats (note again the Noam Chomsky link above), we truly have no alternative to the burgeoning imperial corporate torture state. For all of us who are not part of the oligarchy, post-Katrina New Orleans is indeed America's future -- at this point the only future in sight.

Which, the ghost of my father would probably say, makes socialism -- especially Marx and Marxism -- more relevant now than ever.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. Happy, Merry, & all that...
Spot on observation as they say. We must talk.
:tinfoilhat:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. Thanks for the thorough response....
I will need to bookmark this and return to it later, this is an interesting discussion.

Let me just say I didn't intend to spin anything, or to defend American corporatism (which I would differentiate from capitalism). The current corporate culture in America is quite corrupt and if you've happened to run across many of my other postings on the issue, I have no intention of defending most big corporate Republicans or the Bush dynastry which panders to the military-energy-industrial complex. By lumping all capitalists together I feel that you are diluting the issue.

I've mentioned this article in another post, it really makes my point very clear:

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=5562


Remember that, this Tax Day, when you mail that check off, made payable to the U.S. Treasury. Imagine if you had to make it out to, say, Trireme Partners, or Hillman Capital, or Boeing-Lockheed-Martin-Whomever directly – think what a difference in perception that would make. Because that's what's really going on. The redistribution of wealth from the lower and middle classes to a government-connected financial elite: that's not laissez-faire capitalism, or anything close to free-market economics – that's political plutocracy.

<snip>

Leftist critics of our foreign policy of global intervention point to this system of war profiteering – of a foreign policy engineered by corporate interests for their own benefit – as an indictment of capitalism. It is nothing of the sort. The interplay of government and corporate interests is made possible by the marriage of economy and state.
A divorce, and not a strengthening of the marital vows, is the only way to break the power of the War Party. Laissez-faire is the only alternative to the Welfare-Warfare State.


I regret that my "playing the bigotry card" is offensive, but you have to realize that when you take any group of people such as businessmen, calling them all fascists, or Democrats, calling them all "Commies" for example, it can be quite offensive to some. I'm sure my grandmother is not alone- even my other set of grandparents owned and operated a restaurant at one time. Most of their friends were working class people and I would hardly characterize them as greedy and certainly not fascist.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. Americas dirtiest little secret is it's peoples SELFISHNESS & GREED!
nw56-Thank you for your posts-they are100% spot on! :applause:


"Americas dirtiest little secret is it's peoples SELFISHNESS & GREED!" :puke:

I said this to my husband just before Christmas while thinking of all the ugliness this country has experienced during the reign of Bush-things that most people in Ameica have turned a blind eye to because their own self centered and selfish greed which drives them to accumulate more money and toys that ARE NEVER and WILL NEVER be enough.

To me, it is ALL CRYSTAL CLEAR:

From the OBVIOUSNESS of MIHOP/LIHOP of 9/11...

to the TOTAL LIES & PROPAGANDA that led us to War in Iraq,

to the UTTER DISREGARD OF Katrina and the now FORGOTTEN people in the Gulf...

to the TOTAL CLASS WAR with attacks on jobs, social security, medicare, of the middle class & poor (etc)...

to the SELLOUT TO CORPORATE INTERESTS by most Dems in Congress...

to the TOTAL APATHY of the people...

....ALL of these things are nothing more than pure, selfish, unchecked GREED GREED GREED!!! :grr:

It will be a miracle if we all survive!

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. In reponse to other points in this post....

I've now returned and had a chance to read through your post more carefully.

I feel that one of the greatest dangers in a capitalist system is that once wealth is accumulated, the wealthy then develop a strong sense of privilege and will install systems to preserve their wealth and the wealth of their families and associates. I am also put off by the arrogance and condescension that comes with the notion that charity is the only answer to the problems of poverty. It has been argued that the Bush family, over several generations, has accumulated much more wealth than is actually being reported (for example wealth that was accumulated by Prescott Bush in promoting Hitler and fostering industrialism in Hitler's Germany). When the wealthy own all of the depletable resources, such as land or oil rights, then essentially the game IS over once they can put into place systems to maintain control over the rest of us. When these wealthy dynasties then take control over government and media, even if the government were to convert to a socialist or communist system, how would you then wrestle control away? How is this supposed to work in China, for example, unless the final solution is, indeed, a violent revolution?

Capitalism may have enabled the greediest and most fascistic elements of society to rise to the top, but I don't believe that doing away with capitalism will do anything to solve the problems that have developed as a result. I believe that the only way out of these problems is to acknowledge that some, among the powerful, actually have society's best interests as their priority, and that they will work to put into a place a system (perhaps a combination of social policies and capitalism) with the right kind of governmental controls to ensure the separation of government and privilege, or separation of government and corporate power. No one within the current administration has demonstrated an ability to even understand what is at stake; they probably latch onto religious beliefs and delusional "End Times" prophesies for their own peace of mind.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. I agree particularly with this point:
Edited on Sun Dec-25-05 10:58 AM by Selatius
I will grant that capitalism is essential -- at least at this sad and quite possibly terminally ill stage of human development -- but it is essential in the same way nuclear power is essential: it has to be caged and controlled lest it run amok and destroy everything within reach.

Nobody around here really is aware of socialist thought. Capitalism as a way of life has, by default, been the things people participate in. The problem is education. Nobody has taught these people the benefits of mutual cooperation, just competition. Then again, the education system has been warped and twisted by business interests since the day it was established.

I became a libertarian socialist by thinking my way out of capitalism, and I rejected the notion of state-dominated socialism because it is too much a concentration of decision-making power into the hands of a few. I knew the notion that "everybody can make it" is propaganda. Somebody is always made to be the rich man's foot stool. It's a zero-sum game. Somebody wins, and somebody loses even if everybody has a strong work ethic. I remember in class one year the teacher asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up. People wanted to be kings, presidents, firemen, police officers, soldiers, movie stars, rock stars, etc. I never heard one say he or she wanted to be a janitor or a construction worker or any job that requires a large amount of labor.

They are seen as lesser positions in society even though everyone's labor is important for the functioning of any society, but one would think that is not the case because everything is priced in a monetary system, and janitors, factory workers, etc. are relatively paid pennies compared to shareholders who sit on the board of directors of a corporation, the owners of the means of production.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. The tyranny you describe as "state dominated socialism" is not...
an expression of socialism; it is rather an expression of a sad historical truth: that peoples conditioned by centuries of tyranny (e.g., the Russians and Chinese) find it difficult to rise above tyranny despite their best intentions.

(It is an aside, but most of us have been so methodically robbed of our own history that we profoundly misunderstand liberty and how it comes about. In the Orient, there is no such concept at all, while in the West it is entirely a pagan survival: folk memories of 50 blessed centuries before the advent of patriarchy and Abrahamic religion -- orally preserved traditions of pre-Christian British and Germanic tribal democracies, lore such as that of the Tuatha de Danaan {"Children of the Goddess Danu"} grafted onto principles written down by the Greeks just as these principles were vanishing from the world seemingly forever {and probably recorded for precisely that reason}; notions viciously suppressed by the Church as "heresy" but rediscovered because there is in fact one force so powerful it cannot be gainsaid; notions resurrected and nurtured and renewed by inputs themselves provided by expansions of the quest for liberty: for example the articles of the Iroquois Confederacy as a foundation for such documents as the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut and finally the United States Constitution itself, out of which -- in turn -- comes the liberation of minorities and ultimately, at long last {and 3600 years after the sack of Knossos}, the liberation of women again. Thus liberty is a verb as well as a noun, and never a static state: by definition not only the results of struggle against oppression, but -- precisely as Sartre and Camus noted -- the very struggle itself.)

Returning to the topic of socialism, the embryonic eco-socialism of the Counterculture, especially in the avowedly communal Back-to-the-Land Movement, was deeply focused on avoiding the contradictions inherent in the Soviet and Chinese models of socialism and was instinctively groping toward development of a construct -- practical as well as theoretical -- in which these contradictions would be resolved. Albeit in a low-profiled way, I was very much part of this process, "low-profiled" because of my (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt to strike a working balance between my heart's commitment to the Counterculture and its "revolution in consciousness" versus my stomach's commitment to regular meals: the superficial conformity essential if one was to earn a living even at the lowest levels of corporate journalism. Indeed the greater of my two unfinished books -- both destroyed forever in a ruinous fire -- would have devoted at least one chapter to exploring the specifically political (and therefore economic) implications of Countercultural values. These implications -- chief among them the enormous potential of a socialist society absolved from the tyrannical inertia of the Soviet and Chinese models -- were in fact the very reason the Counterculture was so relentlessly attacked by the oligarchy: not only the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Operation COINTELPRO (which mainly targeted the anti-Vietnam-War Movement), but the Central Intelligence Agency's far more malevolent and cunning Operation CHAOS, which destroyed not merely the alternative press but the entire embryonic Countercultural infrastructure. Thus, thanks to the CIA, the analyses that might have healed the wounds inflicted on socialism by the Soviet and Chinese disasters -- disasters not symptomatic of flaws in socialism but rather the tendency of long-tyrannized peoples to lapse back into tyranny -- these curative analyses were never written.

Had they been written, the emphasis would no doubt have been on refining the very model by which the Counterculture mistakenly believed it could have supplanted the corporate state: this was the creation of local and eventually regional People's Coalitions that, theoretically, would have literally made the corporate state obsolete. In the parlance of the era, "the capitalist system is irrelevant; we are building the New World here, outside the capitalist system and beyond reach of its corruption; when today's corporate overlords and their politicians die, the capitalist system will die with them, and our coalitions will take its place." Such naivete, to be sure, but terrifying to the establishment nevertheless. For this is precisely how the Soviet system was born in 1905 Russia out of the political ferment that followed the Russo-Japanese War; "soviet" is a Russian term for a coalition of workers. And when the Czarist oligarchy collapsed, the Soviets did indeed take over -- only to be defeated by opposition so savage it made the inertia of tyranny inescapable. From the perspective of the oligarchy, the magnitude of the threat is thus undeniable; had a system of People's Coalitions existed in New Orleans and on the Gulf Coast at the time of Katrina, it would have become the sole functioning government in the aftermath: another incarnation of the deservedly legendary Petrograd Soviet, in its chaotic libertarian-socialist zeal one of the truly magnificent expressions of human yearning.

Building on the basic models of the agricultural commune and the infrastructure of communal enterprise that often sprang up in nearby towns to support these communes -- today's elitist food co-ops are a sadly paradoxical remnant of that tragically optimistic and egalitarian era -- it is theoretically possible to construct a socialism from the ground up that not only serves the people but provides adequate outlet for entrepreneurial impulses and thereby preserves, within the context of public ownership, the greatest possible opportunity for individual initiative. The decisive difference, of course, is in the contrasting goals of capitalism versus socialism: in the former, the fulfillment of selfish and self-centered greed; in the latter, the fulfillment of self in the context of greater service to humanity. Imagine in this context a structure that begins with each commune or individual enterprise, which then elects representatives to local Peoples Coalitions, which in turn elects representatives to area-wide People's Coalitions, which itself elects representatives to state-level People's Coalitions, which elects representatives to regional People's Coalitions, which in turn sends its delegates to the National People's Coalition. Set this atop the existing system of constitutional governance -- city, county, state, federal -- and you have a democratic structure such as Jefferson could only dream of; apply it to economic governance and you have a nation-wide socialist economy forever rescued from the fatal problems of centralization. Combine the economic humanitarianism of socialism with the scientific principles of environmentalism -- "eco-socialism" as it is increasingly known -- and you have solved the problem Marx himself identified but could not solve because the underlying knowledge, so succinctly summarized by Epton, Margulis and Lovelock in the Gaea Hypothesis (1974), had not yet been discovered -- or, more accurately, recovered from the graves into which its earlier versions were genocidally flung, whether at Knossos, Ynys Mon or Wounded Knee.

Moreover -- that is, if the nation's wealth is to be divided so the apocalyptic impact of the forthcoming shortages is equally apportioned (as justice demands) -- there is no alternative. The choice is between socialism (in which everyone is guaranteed the necessities of life and therefore granted maximum potential to thrive) versus oligarchy (in which the ruling class lives in obscene opulence while all the rest of us starve).

In a democratic society, the relevance of Marx is mostly limited to his articulation of the historical truth of class struggle. Under tyranny, the relevance of Marx becomes a thousand times greater -- and from the perspective of the board-room a thousand times more fearful. Ironically, it is occupants of that board-room -- the plutocrats who control the DemoPublican parties and therefore the government -- who will determine which relevance Marx is accorded, not only here the the U.S., but everywhere the global oligarchy has offered its pitch ("Step Right Up") and begun the seductive process of enslavement.

I would add only that these are not games we play; do not even for an instant doubt what is at stake.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Your reference to New Orleans/Mississippi Gulf Coast
Ultimately, I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that if these people's coalitions had existed prior to Katrina, many people would have been saved if not by FEMA or even the state governments but by the people themselves operating as a single front. (BTW, I am a resident of the Mississippi Gulf Coast. My home and family survived, but everything else is gone)

I sent an article to one of my friends about a potential example of people developing libertarian-socialist-like tendencies in the New Orleans area several months back, specifically in what was left of the French Quarter. At the time, there was no functioning authority in the area, and people had to band together for survival. Small bands of people had decided to set up a primitive economy of sorts.

Labor was divided up among the various tasks that needed to be done. Some of them did the cooking. Others foraged for food or whatever was necessary for survival, and still more cleaned clothes or went out and scavenged clothes from abandoned city blocks. However, the thing that drew my attention was the fact that there was nothing that could be seen as a centralized decision-making structure beyond a model that, from what I could tell, appears to be very close if not was direct democracy. There was no one ordering these people to do things. They were doing these tasks of their own free will, for the mutual survival of all involved. They shared with each other the fruits of their labor.

I remarked to my friend that these survivors discovered the true definition socialism in the fall of civilization, the collapse of the local capitalist driven economy and the impotence of the authorities, but they probably didn't know it because most folks don't know the idea behind socialism except the bastardized, corrupted version taught in the US. Anyway, I suspect these little communities were quickly put to an end after they sent in the national guard to clean out the city and make everybody evacuate.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Very interesting and thanks. There was some reporting on these...
instinctive reversions to socialism including interviews with people who had been part of a food distribution collective, but the stories were quickly submerged in the official (and murderously racist) "minorities run amok" meme: a submergence I have no doubt was intentional and dictated from on high.

One of the interesting revelations of natural disaster is the extent to which socialism is an expression of basic human instincts -- while the murderous hierarchy implicit in capitalism (life valued only in terms of wealth and potential for profit) always has to be imposed by force. For example the food-distribution collective was stopped at gunpoint by the authorities and all its food confiscated. When the members protested, they were shot at and thereby dispersed: obviously there was an official policy that under no circumstances would people be allowed to organize for self-preservation -- the mere existence of such a policy conclusive proof of genocidal intent. (It is not clear who did the confiscating and shooting: local police, federal mercenaries imported from Iraq, the military, or imported police like the California Highway Patrol -- police officially trained to be brutally, even savagely anti-gun who not coincidentally were used in most of the firearms confiscations: note the vicious beating of an elderly female home-owner found to be in possession of a firearm for self-defense, a beating filmed and aired by CBC but dutifully suppressed by all U.S. television outlets.)

Were there not such rigid taboos against reporting expressions of the socialist instinct, I suspect many more examples of spontaneously formed collectives (and many more examples too of their brutal suppression by the authorities) would be common knowledge.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. :Holy. Fuckin. Shit:
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Hi; didn't know you were back.
Contemplate what I said above in the context of the forcible imposition of patriarchy 3600 years ago: "One of the interesting revelations of natural disaster is the extent to which socialism is an expression of basic human instincts -- while the murderous hierarchy implicit in capitalism (life valued only in terms of wealth and potential for profit) always has to be imposed by force." Excavations of Knossos, for example, show a city in which (apart from the palace, and very much unlike the patriarchal domains of Rome or Athens) there were neither extremes of poverty nor of wealth. Excavations at Thera show parallel evidence. The obvious suggestion is that Minoan civilization -- which we know to have been goddess-centered -- was also socialist. The broader implication is that not only is socialism a basic human instinct, it is an instinct that must be brutally suppressed for capitalism to prevail. (I wonder what other evidence might be found to support this hypothesis.)

(Am leaving to run errands but will be back later this afternoon.)
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Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. wow....
newswolf56 - how the hell can you type so much so fast?!! Very informative and GREAT stuff. Any recommended readings for someone interested in capitalism / socialism etc??


PS - thanks.
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drduffy Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. yes. avarice, greed, evil. Capitalism unbridled.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. Born in 1949.
TV Generation.
Nevertheless, I see fully and clearly the evils wrought on humans, animals, and in general the planet by capitalism and industrialism.
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. as long as "corporate america" is financing politics
we will continue to live in an oligarchy, no matter if the label slapped on it is republican or democratic, the true power will lie in the boardrooms of the multi-nats like exxxon-mobil, halliburton and ADM and monsanto their ilk.
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. So Barron's is as "repudiable" as the Wall Street Journal. . .
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 07:23 PM by Journeyman
and this, based on their articles . . .

Tell me, if someone can, why this is a "good thing" . . . or are we hard against what Twain decried as loose language, the use of a wrong word when the right word can't be found (caused in the main by laziness), the difference being like that of a chestnut horse and a horse chestnut.

edit: typo ((we're all prone to 'em)
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. Contact your ISP and your telephone carrier...
...let them know that you want assurances from them, in writing, that your constitutional rights are being respected and that they are NOT cooperating with this illegal power grab. If they have a Privacy Policy posted, read over it and if applicable, quote it back to them and threaten them with a lawsuit for the balance of all monies you have paid them since Bush started this program for aggregious breach of contract. If you own or manage a business, all the better. Accuse them of leaving your vital corporate data vulnerable to exploitation and theft due to the, no doubt, crappy ass implementation of this program. If enough of us make noise, it'll make a difference. Know any right wingers? Exploit their paranoid nature, make them think their pockets are being picked.

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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Barrons and most CEOs will be upset
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 07:47 PM by wakeme2008
having Bush listen to their overseas telephone calls. Think about that.....

Could some of that data show up at the Carlyle Group......

from http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html

Meet The Carlyle Group

These names stands out to me..


Carlucci

Former Secretary of Defense and
Deputy Director
of the CIA


Bush
Former
US President and
Vice President
Former Director
of the CIA

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. Was data from some of the recent hack jobthefts a result of hackers
getting into these government databases?

Second question - When I heard that Poindexter was supposed to stop his data mining project, I never believed that the project would stop. This looks like it could be another lie and crime against the citizens.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. Much like Nero (I think, too lazy to look it up) making the big show
of publicly destroying all of the records compiled on Roman Citizens, but only after he had them copied for future use.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. Corporate America will be in big trouble when & if we are able to restore
our right to vote. That's WHY they took our right to vote away--because we, as a sovereign people, are the only people in the world with the potential to regulate, reign in and dismantle the U.S.-based global corporate predators who are oppressing us and everyone else, and are destroying our planet. Our vote, used collectively, is an extremely valuable item. They know this. Result: we now have rightwing Bushite corporations tabulating all our votes with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, and with highly insecure and hackable computers, and virtually no audit/recount controls. Our elections have no transparency. We have no idea by what formula they are counting our votes, and NO RIGHT to review those formulas, or any of the secret, invisible, parts of voting counting. Our election officials have given away our right to vote--sold it right away in the $4 billion "Help America Hack Act" boondoggle--in exchange for illegitimate power, lavish lobbying perks, and "revolving door" jobs, and sometimes out of stark-raving ignorance.

Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

THEN we will see what's to be done about dismantling this corporate/military junta, and busting its lying, propagandizing news monopolies.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. I agree with your sentiment, but how do you think that the restoration
of voting will make a difference? The Sheeple of the United States have consistently voted in favor of enslavement for generations. The rise of our particular brand of capitalism has been growing for over a hundred years, through both Democratic and Republican Congresses and administrations, with nary a whisper of dissent from the electorate, nor their 'representatives.
Here's hoping you have a great holiday
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. "I'm switching to smoke signals!"
Will be what I tell my wireless provider if it turns out they have allowed the government to access their lines.

They will probably bend over backwards to keep people, but I would be perfectly happy to jump on a class-action suit against any provider I have had that complied with this illegal and unconstitutional order.

They have lawyers! They should have protected their consumers against illegal surveillance!

Anyone get it?
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. I happened to notice in Texas a bill to specifically demand that such
companies cooperate with the government, and that they are protected from lawsuits by their customers that might result from such invasions of privacy.

I thought it was quite bizarre.

As usual, these thugs have a Plan A and a Plan B and a Plan C...
State-level legislation is always one of their backup plans.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. Is Corporate-Political Spying also an issue?
With access to private phone conversations and file transfers, that info can help competitor's. If the competitors are also fronting the Criminal-in-Chief....I'd bet George "Inside Trader" Bush wouldn't have a problem sharing biz intel with a Pioneer.
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sara8 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
24. Against the Wind
After all of this and the tragic attack on 9/11 and the war on terrorism, Islam remain the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.

http://www.therevival.co.uk/revivalissues/september11_and_conversions.htm
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

Famous people too:

Singer "Cat Stevens" Oh, baby, baby it's a wild world
Hear his story as told him

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/singerUnid/E94AFB9F1279780B482569BA0007D998

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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Hi sara8!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. If * is in corporamerica's pocket, they have little to fear.
Small businesses may still have to fear, but not the large ones.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
29. CorporaKabuki
The unbridled collection of personal data (including piss tests, for cripe's sake!), not only customers but employees, by the corporatists (Equifax, Experian, and TRW anyone?) has been facilitated and legitimzed by the state - a state (superfically) prohibited from such wholesale collection. Now, as the ownership of the state by corporatists becomes clearer, who could possibly be surprised that NSA would (and has been?) easily tap into such a mother's lode of personal data?

"You have family in the old country, comrade?" :eyes:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. Seperation of church, CORPORATION and state NOW!
Never trust a preacher or businessman who can't keep his own profit persuing business designs and his own beliefs OUT of state affairs!!

Do not blindly put any trust in a Ceo millionare or preacher with a limo to have your human interests and your needs at heart if elected if you are poor or workling class.Image is NOTHING.

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ms.smiler Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
37. Does anyone else wonder if reviewing and acting upon this data
is what kept Cheney busy in his secure location?
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