My Angolan Fam. Member Jailed as Suspected Terrorist – Pat. Act Hits Home

[Time for change]

I’ll refer to her as Hope because “Hope Against Hope” is her DU screen name (though she doesn’t yet have enough posts to start a thread on her own.)

Hope is a 32 year old woman who fled to the United States from Angola in 2002 because her husband was trying to have her killed because she gave birth to four daughters and no sons. She sought and obtained asylum here in 2004. She has been working as a pharmacy technician since shortly after she arrived here, and she hopes to soon become a U.S. citizen. My wife and I took her into our home several months ago so that she could save up enough money to have her four daughters, currently living in Angola, come to this country to live with her. Since then she has worked full time while taking college courses at the University of Maryland (which is the primary reason why her DU post count is so low).


Arrest and imprisonment

About a week ago (December 14th) Hope planned to fly to Africa to retrieve her daughters. Stopping at her bank to withdraw $2000 for her trip a few hours before her scheduled departure, she was pulled over by a police car after having driven about a mile from her bank. Here is a paraphrase of the conversation that ensued between Hope and the man in plain clothes from the police car, who was apparently an FBI agent:
Agent: Did you just withdraw $2000 from your bank?
Hope: Yes
Agent: You’re under arrest. You’ll have to give me the money and come with us.
Hope: Why? What did I do?
Agent: You have no right to ask me that. Do you see my badge?
Hope: I have to catch a plane this evening. Will I be allowed to do that?
Agent: Are you going to come on your own, or do we have to come in there and get you?

So Hope gave the agent her $2000, got out of her car, was handcuffed, went into the police car, and was driven to Baltimore, where she was put in a small prison cell. At no time was she read her rights, nor was she given any reason for her arrest prior to arriving at her prison cell. Once in prison she was told that the reason for her arrest was that she was suspected of terrorism. She asked if she could call her home (where she was living with my wife and me), and she was told that the only people she could call were her employer and her lawyer. She was also told that her employer would have to vouch for her employment, and her lawyer would also have to vouch for her before she could be released from prison.

Fortunately for Hope, she was able to reach both her lawyer and her employer by phone, and they both came to the Baltimore prison where she was being held, to vouch for her. She was in prison for about four hours before being released.


Attempt to go to Africa to retrieve her children

My wife then rushed Hope to the airport. On her way there, I talked with her by cell phone. It was very difficult for me to hear clearly what she was saying because she was crying uncontrollably. But I did manage to hear a few things between her sobs. This is a paraphrase of some of the most important things she said to me:
-- We have to tell the DU about this.
-- The United States could be (or used to be) such a great country.
-- We have to impeach Bush.

Hope arrived at the airport barely in time to make her flight. However, as she attempted to board the plane she was told that she was not cleared to fly because of her recent arrest. She had to take a taxi home because my wife had left her at the airport, assuming there was no problem.

The next day (December 15th) Hope saw her lawyer, and he got her record cleared so that she could leave for Africa the next evening. She then flew to Africa on the 15th, was reunited with her children, and returned with them yesterday.


There are so many unresolved questions I have about this

- If verification of employment was so important, why couldn’t her bank have done that?
- What would have happened to her if she didn’t have a lawyer?
- Why wasn’t she allowed to call me and my wife?
- What would have happened to her if she had been unemployed?
- Why didn’t they read her her rights? (Because she doesn’t have any?)
- When they arrested her why couldn’t they tell her what she was being arrested for?
- Why didn’t the FBI clear her record upon her release, so that she could make her plane?
- Why did the FBI and the police have to be so nasty to her?
- Does any of this have to do with the posting I’ve done on the DU?
- Does any of this help to protect us against terrorism?
- Most important, does the Patriot Act make any or all of what happened to her legal?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. What a horrific story

It's against the law for a foreigner to withdraw money from a US bank?

[rocktivity]

5. I doubt she would have been able to withdraw the money

if she'd had an account. Very mysterious indeed.

:headbang:
rocknation (one of five daughters and no sons)

[Trevelyan]

14. Thank you for letting us know. Although it must have been a nightmarish

experience, Hope is blessed to have such a caring family and I am glad she was able to get her children.

We do have to impeach bush and John Conyers has made a strong request that we sign his letter to begin the Impeachment Investigation NOW!

http://www.dembloggers.com/~~~

My comments on Sen. Kennedy's blogsite:

http://www.tedkennedy.com/journal/544/the-presidential-daily-briefs-amendment?commented=1#c000899

~~It is true that resident bush has begun martial law without announcing it. The VIPER program of arresting people in subway and trains who do not want armed guards with unruly guard dogs intimidating them into showing ID just for riding public transport and the very suspicious death of a man on a plane in Miami who did NOT announce he had a bomb as testified by the other passengers who also said they were much more afraid of the federal marshalls holding guns at their head and telling them not to look is very much like the murder of Menendez after the very suspicious London bombings.

This has to STOP NOW!!

I signed Rep. Conyers’ letter to begin an Impeachment Inquiry NOW at

http://www.johnconyers.com/ - Conyer’s Action Items
"Blogged by John Conyers on 12.22.05
http://www.conyersblog.us/
Wednesday, December 21st, 2005

Support for Iraq Report, Impeachment Actions, Censure Grow

It has been an incredible whirlwind two days. The Report was downloaded by tens of thousands of individuals in the first 24 hours. Our petition is off to a good start, with some 4000 sigining in the first 24 hours as well. The Report along with my resolutions and new steps to hold the Bush Admiinistration accountable for their flaunting of the law received widespread press coverage, in the liberal and mainstream media. I did interviews on Stephanie Miller and Bev Smith Shows yesterday. I did the Joe Madison Show today, Democracy Now with Amy Goodman, Michigan Radio, and Radio Pacifica today. I was also interviewed by Roll Call, which did a front page, above the fold article. The RNC and GOP leaders chose to respond with their usual change the subject mentality."

~~~Someone on the Thom Hartmann show just asked if Bush spied on Congress or Senate people. Maybe that's why he did it illegally. Because it wasn't for terrorism but for political purposes.

http://www.impeachpac.org/
http://www.conyersblog.us/

TELL CONGRESS TO IMPEACH GEORGE BUSH
http://democrats.com/peoplesemailnetwork/65

[Time for change]

65. Thank you much

I signed Conyers' call for censure and impeachment investigation (can't remember if I had previously signed that one, but it couldn't hurt to do it twice).

If ever a "president" needed to be impeached, the time is now. And if this is successful then we will need to go after Cheney.

[Time for change]

31. They gave her no explanation for why they suspected her

of terrorism. But I think that from what happened we can deduce with a great deal of confidence that it was the withdrawal of the money -- from her own checking account -- that triggered this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. It doesn't make any sense

Why did they let her leave the bank? Why not nab her there?

[understandinglife]

43. Because, imho, the bank had absolutely nothing to do with her ...

... apprehension. The FBI had her under "total information awareness" scrutiny -- electronically.

When she bought that airline ticket, her profile got highlighted. The already had her bank account and any other account she might have (cell phone, ISP, etc.), under surveillance.

As soon as the bank teller logged the withdrawal, it was detected, electronically, and a local agent, who may already have been trailing her, was authorized to make the arrest.

If she used her cell phone as she went to the bank and any time after leaving the bank, that was likely how they were tracking her.

Welcome to Poindexter's TIA in action ... and you thought they canceled that program ...


Peace.

[Time for change]

51. I suppose because there were no police in the bank

Either the bank notified the police upon her withdrawal of the money OR, as understandinglife suggests below (which sounds more likely to me), the FBI had been on her tail ever since she purchased the airline tickets, and the withdrawal of the money triggered their going into action. In any event, I assume that it took a while for the FBI to get into the area.

[pitohui]

125. the bank reports to treasury, treasury or FBI called local law enforcement

there is no reason to speculate, it is almost certain she had cash deposits or withdrawals in the past, the bank filed either a CTR (currency transaction report) or a SPR (suspicious person's report) and then the dept. of treasury would decide whether to investigate further

i've had many CTRs filed on me, and i suspect a few SPRs, but my circumstances were pretty obvious as i had filed with the IRS that i was on a gambling team

i suspect the woman's occupation -- it sounds like grad student -- made it suspicious because someone in her situation, a refugee and a student so poor they had to live in another's home, would not normally be handling large sums of cash

so the dept. of treasury calls local law enforcement & they pick up the lady for questioning

i had my house poked around a bit but it went no further than that

another friend was contacted by the sheriff of his small town, he actually told him that the dept. of treasury had called the sheriff's office and said, "hey, you know this dude bought in for $10,000 at tunica the other night, why don't you check him out?" the sheriff knew the guy was a gambler and didn't need further investigation but it was clear from what he told my friend that the dept. of treasury does "sic" the cops on people sometimes

the bank prob. wishes they were not caught in the middle of this, however, if they do NOT report, the consequences are severe, and they are required to report any suspicions of money-laundering, no matter how feeble or ridiculous according to some pretty silly guidelines

so don't blame the bank, blame ronald reagan & the war on drugs, which is where all this crap got started

[Time for change]

136. But I don't see what was suspicious about her

Her occupation, as noted in the OP is pharmacy technician. I don't see why a pharmacy technician couldn't save $2000.

[pitohui]

138. reading further i do see what was suspicious

4 one-way tickets for minor children from a poor country in africa that she had left, claiming asylum, which to usa officials would imply she should have felt afraid to return there

i know, you know, it was her own children

but if she wasn't what she presented herself to be & if she was planning to smuggle the children for human trafficking, it would also look a lot like that

real people almost always buy round-trip tickets because they are cheaper than one ways, you just throw away the return leg you know you won't need, most people are not so super ethical they feel obligated to pay the airline more money for the one-way just because the airline would like them to

that's it, that's the whole ball of wax

i'm sorry she was investigated at all, but to me it is quite obvious why, and she had a much better outcome than anyone i know personally in this situation

i'm not sure what the complaint is, actually, she got to take the trip, she got the money back, she has the kids

so what's the problem really?

it is not realistic to tell law enforcement they can never arrest anyone ever unless they are 100 percent sure the person is guilty, that is for a jury to decide, law enforcement officers have to act based on the likelihood that a crime is being committed

i want to clarify, i think it's shitty this happened, it makes me mad when it happens to people i know, but your story is actually the BEST story i've heard like this, not sure what she has to gain by pursuing it further, since she doesn't seem to have any damages &, in any case, you don't get damages for being arrested unless it's really egregious -- and this, to law enforcement and to the courts, is not going to sound egregious

please, don't believe me, please encourage her to follow the advice of her attorney, his or her advice to lay low for now is the BEST advice i've heard on this thread

[seabeyond]

2. and they tell us, what does it matter if you have done nothing wrong.

this is why it matters. they have taken it so far, you get in trouble even if you have done nothing wrong. and THAT,........ is WRONG

[Blue_In_AK]

3. This is shameful...

What have we become?

[EFerrari]

4. The answer to most of those questions is

1. Because they can and
2. Because they aren't paid to care.

I'm so sorry.

We have to turn this police state around. And before we do, these stories will be sadly more common.

Hope, I apologize for my criminal government.

[Hope against hope]

17. Americans are great people!!! Especially DUers!!!

You do not have to apologize dear. This is the work of the sickening Bush administraion. Lets keep the fire burning in the hope that it will over soon!!!!

[beam me up scottie]

28. We're fortunate that you still wish to live here, Hope against hope.

My mother was an immigrant and one of the most courageous people I've ever known.

I'm thrilled to hear your children are with you.

Stay strong.

[understandinglife]

46. Welcome to DU, Hope. Tfc knows me. If I and my wife can do anything ...

... to help you and your daughters, just have him contact me, and we will do anything we can.


Peace.

[Time for change]

113. Thank you very much ul

Hope very much appreciates your kindness and had written you an extensive reply this afternoon. But she's a slow writer, so by the time she tried to post the message it would not post - and then she lost it. Right now she has rather numerous tasks that she has to complete, so she didn't have time to re-write it before she had to leave here for a few days. But here is what she had to say, other than her expression of appreciation:

She doesn't want people to feel sorry for her. She says that she was very lucky because it could have been a lot worse. She could have ended up like the guy who was shot and killed a few days ago, or they could have locked her up and thrown away the key. So she's very happy that she only had to spend four hours in prison.

I guess that when you've gone through what she has, what she went through a few days ago doesn't seem so bad. And she said that she's very much looking forward to the time when she has a lot more time to spend on the DU.

[understandinglife]

118. Very kind of you to send along this informaton, Tfc. We look forward ...

... to having Hope share her experiences and insights. How she and her daughters got here and why they strove to do so, is what "America" is supposed to mean. Her story encompasses the stark contrast of what "America" is; and what "America" most definitely must NOT become.


Peace.

[all.of.me]

68. i am so glad you were able to get your children, though!

i'm glad you're home safe with your children. i was wondering throughout the whole story if you'd get out of the country, then back in. there is a happy ending.

now we need to act to end this sort of thing.

[derby378]

69. Welcome to DU, Hope!

And my wife and I are so sorry to hear about this. Our hearts are sick over what this government is doing to America.

You've given us yet another reason to fight against Nero's administration tooth-and-nail. We will never forget.

[HeeBGBz]

70. I'm sorry this happened to you

I'm glad you finally got to be with your children. It makes me sick that people are hurt like this by a criminal administration.

[EuroObserver]

72. Hi there Hope against hope

from a citizen of a country led by a sickening associate of the sickening Bush administraion (UK), and of Europe.

I think we all realise that, in spite of everything - especially what's been happening recently but also much earlier history - that many people of the US, precisely because of their spirit of honesty, freeedom, self-expession, justice and resistance, still represent a very powerful (but not the only) lighthouse of hope in the world. The future of sanity and of freedom in many parts of the world, not just in the USA, will depend upon how these current political tensions are eventually resolved. I believe many people are working on it.

Thanks for allowing us to listen to your story. Though it doesn't help much I'd like to apologise for my sex's frequent machismo and general incapacity for, or fear of, love. Solidaridad desde España. Respect to you and your loved ones, Hope.

A. (tears in my eyes). With hope.

[supernova]

76. My goodness Hope against Hope

I'm so glad your arrest got resolved. And I'm so glad that you had people who care about you to vouche for you. Hopefully, when you become a citizen (If you still want to after that! - I wouldn't blame you if you changed your mind.) this problem won't recurr. I hope it won't recur anyway. That's just horrible!

:hug: I hope your holiday seasn will be brighter now that your kids are here, too. :grouphug: I wish all of you a good life here.

[bleever]

104. My thoughts are with you, Hope. Best of luck, and

the happiest of holidays to you and Tfc, who is a great asset to the DU community.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

6. This might be a dumb question, but I was under the impression

that alien residents of the US were afforded the same civil liberties as citizens, they only thing different was that they couldn't vote.

Has this been given away by the US Patriot Act?

[seabeyond]

18. maybe this si a picture of what our civil liberties have become

i know there have been people that have asked why they were being stopped and the police wouldnt answer. i was stopped and asked what i did wrong and he just asked for my stuff. then chatted a minute and let me go. never did tell me why

[Time for change]

64. That is one of the questions at the top of my list

I think we need to know the answer to that.

[Nitrogenica]

7. I used to hear stories like this about how the USSR treated

people during the 70's & 80's, used as shocking reasons communism was so wrong.

They had their reasons for doing that, I'm sure. Now our country uses 9/11 to justify any violation of civil rights.

The authorities could take her to Gitmo (siberia) if they wanted and she'd be held indefinately with no trial and charges, no trace. How similar is that to those Communist legends of the Cold War? To me it sounds EXACTLY the same.

More importantly...who at that bank is responsible for calling the FBI, and why?

[Longhorn]

8. The arrest goes on her record in a matter of hours

but the fact that she was granted asylum in this country wasn't a matter of record, too?

What rules was the bank following? Call the authorities if a person of color or with an 'unAmerican' name or -- fill in the blank -- withdraws $2,000? $1,000? $100?

Not only is this terribly unjust, it is inept. If our resources are being used thusly, I'm sure there is no one around to catch the real bad guys!

[Time for change]

83. Yes, that's about it -- inept and unjust

That's the signature line for this administration.

[YourBrother]

92. the real bad guys ...

depends on who you think are the real bad guys?


who's good and bad really is all dependant on your perspective, and it's born out of creating a "them" and "us" culture between nations, religions, colours, credes or hairstyles, so as to divert attention from the real "them" and "us" which should exist between the consciencious good natured people of the world who want a good future for themselves, their familys and the same for all others, the vast majority of people i would say ... and the people who's behaviour is destructive, deceitful and would have you fight tooth and claw with your fellow man for their own personal and financial gains encouraging hate and feelings of superiority by birthright

maybe that's a "them" and "us" culture we should be cultivating :D

[pitohui]

126. try $750

although i think it unlikely the bank would really feel obliged to file a suspicious person's report on such a small withdrawal, there are circumstances under federal law where the payee does have to report a transaction as small as $750

i suggest obtaining an ATM card and withdrawing cash as needed in the country you are visiting rather than carrying large sums of cash around the world, it also protects you from pickpockets and armed robbers

[Aimah]

9. They must have already been investigating her.

The fact that she withdrew 2000.00 isn't enough on it's own of a red flag for that kind of response. Although there are report limits for certain amounts and negotiable items the bank can file a report for anything they find strange. The fact that the FBI officer stopped her a mile from the bank is strange. They must have tracked her from the time she bought the plane ticket and new she was leaving that day. The scenario seems to have gone that way because she's not yet a US citizen.

[antigone382]

10. Tell her that this American is sorry this injustice was done to her

Surely many foreigners take out such sums when travelling home.

Where is any probable cause other than the money withdrawal?

This stinks, but I am glad she is safe with her daughters. To think, she came here to try to break free of tyranny.....

[Selatius]

11. This is infuriating

This is something one would expect in authoritarian dictatorships, not the US. Of course, such expectations are built upon the notion that "it can't happen here."

[Time for change]

67. Exactly right -- most people think "it can't happen here"

Well, they'd better get over that way of thinking soon.

Here's something that I posted a few months ago on that subject:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2069007
That was before I had any direct personal experience with this kind of stuff

At the time there wasn't very much agreement with my views on this. I think that that is changing quickly.

[pitohui]

127. why do you think it can't happen here?

it has been happening to people i know since 1990

i would be more sympathetic to this attitude if i hadn't been trying to get attention to the problems caused by the money-laundering act since practically the day it was passed

and in real life, no one NO ONE cares until it is their money that is seized because everyone thinks it only happens to somebody else, someone black or someone poor or someone criminal, someone other

this is just as much a crime when it happens to a citizen as when it happens to a resident alien -- but no one cares & you can't get a phone call from the last page of the newspaper when it happens to a citizen

[tsuki]

12. Send this to Arlen Specter. A little research that I was doing

tonight.

From thinkprogress.org

What Drudge says:

Clinton, February 9, 1995: “The Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order”

What Clinton actually signed:

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) <50 U.S.C. 1822(a)> of the Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.

The entire controversy about Bush’s program is that, for the first time ever, allows warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and other people inside of the United States. Clinton’s 1995 executive order did not authorize that.

Drudge pulls the same trick with Carter.

/more at site

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/drudge-fact-check

I have got to think that this monitoring was warrantless. Violation of the Fourth.

[Time for change]

71. Right, against our constitutional rights, but

do you think that it is permitted by the Patriot Act?

[tsuki]

85. Cannot be. That would be unconstitutional. Our government's

basic charter to govern is derived from the Constitution. You cannot pass into law an unconstitutional act. It calls into question the right to govern.

[Time for change]

87. But unconstitutional laws ARE passed

Sometimes they are later overturned by the Supreme Court. But given how conservative our Supreme Court is now, if Alito gets confirmed it's hard to imagine them overturning the Patriot Act, no matter how unconstitutional it is.

[EuroObserver]

94. But, in time of "war"?

Or other such "State of Exception or Emergency"? What of your Constitution then?

[beam me up scottie]

13. I really hope her lawyer is doing more than getting her record cleared.

If not, she should get another lawyer.

We need to send a message that this will not be tolerated.

[EFerrari]

16. That arrest will stay on her Permanent Record forever

unless she goes to court to get it expunged. Even then, whenever she is pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light, the whole thing starts over because she is now in the police datebase.

It's just horrendous.

edit: clarity

[beam me up scottie]

24. That's why she should hire an attack dog lawyer.

Because this wasn't a parking ticket.

[EFerrari]

29. Yes! Downthread, proud2blib suggests the ACLU. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

32. Much better!

They usually make sure horror stories like these get maximum exposure.:thumbsup:

[AndyTiedye]

33. And In that Permanent Record, It Says She was Arrested for What?

What would it say? She wasn't charged with anything.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Suspected terrorism.

It's in the op.

[EFerrari]

53. It will say she was arrested and questioned by the FBI.

It won't matter that she was never arraigned or charged. The arrest is what is on the record.

:(

[pitohui]

130. don't catastrophize

the story upstream i told abt the guy in miami airport who was arrested and had his money seized and he did NOT get it back, not for years, and then not enough to cover his costs...somehow he manages to travel all over the world on his usa passport and continue living his life

there is no use telling this woman that her life is over because she was arrested one time, esp. having been arrested & released only 4 hours later

her life is not over

there is nothing to expunge because she wasn't convicted of anything

don't panic the woman, what is done is done, and she can certainly recover from this and go on and have a great life for herself & her children


i think there are plenty on DU who have been arrested, some for political crimes like protesting, and they would be v. upset to hear someone tell others that the whole thing "starts over" every time they have a broken taillight, come on, this is enough to make someone want to reconsider any kind of protest or political action right there, fortunately it is NOT true

[proud patriot]

15. Get this to your Senators as well as to

Senator Boxer and any other policy makers
that you feel will listen to you .

Document everything write it all down
and do this quickly . Someone out there
might write about it in a book or newspaper.

we must find a way to compile these experiences
from those abused by the current paranoid
police/fbi etc .....

I also want to see where it's law that one's
privacy is abridged when taking cash out of
the bank . Why was anyone notified when she
withdrew the cash ?

[understandinglife]

27. "Why was anyone notified when she withdrew the cash?" ... See # 22.

And, I agree with you. Document every detail.

I also agree that a national registry, similar to the those created to document all the instances of election fraud in 2004, should be begun -- the ACLU may be the ideal sponsor of such a reporting and archiving system.


Peace.

[proud patriot]

100. Thanks post 22

explanation of the bank withdrawl makes sense .

I also agree the ACLU is a good idea and
perhaps the NLG (national lawyers guild)
might be interested .

[Time for change]

58. Yes, I agree with all that

I will notify Senator Boxer, and probably lots of others as well, but we need to work with Hope's lawyer on that. Don't want to do anything that will jeopardize her at this time.

As to why she was arrested, I thought it had to do solely with the withdrawal of the money. But some other posters have pointed out that the FBI probably started watching her movements when she purchased the plane ticket.

Whether any of this was legal, I have no idea. Hope's lawyer is very upset about this too. It seems to me that he is aware that this was not legal. But I am not sure -- hope to find out soon.

[dweller]

19. and then reading this other thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2331615

makes me not wonder.


It makes no sense that $2000 would seem such a out of place amount, for someone traveling, or at Christmas time .... something else is missing in this story. Not from your side though.

hoping you are all safe and well now.
dp

[Time for change]

82. Some posters mentioned that they thought it was the one-way tickets

she purchased for her children. I don't know if that makes more sense or not, but I suspect that they are right about that.

[Neil Lisst]

20. They might have been responding to a tip that was bogus.

It appears they were tipped off to some conduct of hers which was innocent, but maybe someone had implied was not innocent. Maybe it was a vengeful person she knows.

The fact that they quickly released her seemed to indicate they got it resolved fairly promptly. It raises my eyebrows, but it makes me wonder who was so mean as to set this woman up. The feds don't simply show up because some African woman withdraws $2000 in cash. This had to be set in motion before she ever got to the bank.

I'd get her to the ACLU and let them assess it. They understand these things a lot better than the rest of us.

[EFerrari]

23. ACLU is a great idea. Because there will be clean up

or this incident will haunt her later. Good call, Neil.

[nuxvomica]

25. Good idea. The ACLU has handled similar cases

This woman does have rights regardless of her status as long as she is legally in this country.

[EOTE]

26. Is that necessarily so?

It doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility to me that the fact that an African woman withrawding 2 grand is enough to be arrested in *'s America. We're living in very scary times. It seems to me that this is yet another example of what depths this country has sunk to in a mere 5 years.

[gardenista]

35. This is an interesting theory.

what a shame that our freedoms have eroded to the point where a vengeful person can use the system to potentially destroy a person's life.

I hope that this case can be investigated thoroughly, because there is something terribly wrong here.

[Neil Lisst]

79. It's just a theory, but it fits the facts.

If they had ANYTHING on her, she would not have been out in 4 hours. It had to be a mistake in identity or information, either accidently, or with intent.

I'm very concerned about that type of vengeful thing in today's world. The internet is full of psychos who obsess over others and do whatever they can to attack those they don't like.

[Time for change]

86. However

She was told that unless her employer and her lawyer vouched for her she would not have been released. She was very fortunate that not only was she able to get hold of both of them, but they both came down to vouch for her almost immediately. Had that not happened there is no telling how long she would have been held for. They wouldn't even let her call me or my wife until the others vouched for her.

[Time for change]

84. It's reminiscent of the McCarthy era

But I think it's a lot worse now. During the McCarthy era, at least our President was not part of the problem (though I believe he could have come out more strongly against it). McCarthy did have an awful lot of power though.

[The Doctor.]

21. They are cracking down on people who express dissent...

If you post to DU, you are suspect.

I would be surprised if most regular posters here are not on a 'watch list'.

If you don't mind, I'd like to spread this story around via E-mail. Considering all of us here are merely one degree removed from your friend, I might suggest we all email this around and state unequivocally that this happened to a friend of ours who shall remain nameless for her protection.
That is assuming this account is accurate, and I've no reason to doubt that.

This is a story that should get around fast.

[Bozita]

30. I'm a frequent poster -- My daughter's been given the "step out of line"..

... search on her last 6 flights.

[beam me up scottie]

34. And you conclude that's because you post here?

[Bozita]

39. Not at all ---Perhaps other posters have similar experiences?

Curious.

[beam me up scottie]

42. They must think so, they've been posting about them all week.

I guess it's flattering to think that we're important enough to rate constant surveillance.

But it's rather ridiculous in the shadow of this woman's very real experience with the government.

[EFerrari]

47. I don't fly and we sold the car so there aren't too many

opportunities for official contact right now. Next year, I've research to do in Mexico so it could come up.

The funny thing is, we have all kinds of cop friends here at home because of the community work. Sigh. Special Agent Mike, Alex and Amanda -- I hope the agency finds a better use of your time.

[Time for change]

90. I have to admit that

If they were targeting people for aggressive searching based on their DU posting, and if they did that consistently, I would be fully searched every time I tried to board a plane -- and I'm not.

I think that there are simply way too many of us for them to deal with it, assuming that they wanted to -- which they probably would like to do IMO.

[barbtries]

101. i think it's bad luck

in 2003 i had to "step out of line" on 4 of 5 flights. i was told it's predicated on a code that's on the boarding pass and is random, and that my percentage meant i was very unlucky. for what it's worth, i had not yet found du.

[lostnfound]

61. Does she buy tickets at the last minute? or buy 1-way 1st class?

Those are common reasons for the special searches.

On edit: I'm not saying such screenings are rational, I think they are nuts.

[Time for change]

97. She bought one-way tickets for her four daughters

But they were not last minute and they were not first class.

[pitohui]

131. one way tickets are a flag

everybody gets searched when they buy one-way tickets, that's an automatic

reason -- round-trip tickets are cheaper, it is assumed that there are only two reasons you buy a one-way ticket, you don't plan to come back or you work for a company too stupid to economize, the latter reason is usally the correct one, however, since she bought the one-way tickets for kids they could see it wasn't business...

esp. since it wasn't a last minute purchase, she should have been able to do better price-wise by buying a round-trip ticket and throwing away the return, and it also looks less suspicious to the TSA

keep in mind, they don't know this lady, all they know is, big cash withdrawal, and she plans to come back w. 4 kids, hmmm, maybe she's real, maybe she's a child smuggler, how the heck can they know unless they snoop further? that's their justification, not saying they are in the right, but i'm saying they believe they are in the right & that's how they would justify

[Time for change]

41. I agree -- that's one of the main reasons I posted this

This of course is a scandalous story. And the more people in this country who know about it the better.

[understandinglife]

22. For starters, if you haven't already, contact the ACLU on Tuesday.

I suspect the FBI had tagged her well before she made the withdrawl, i.e., as soon as she purchased the ticket and they probably were monitoring, electronically, her bank account.

I doubt the bank called them; they were probably sniffing the transactions.

This would suggest an MO that any non-citizen, on any form of visa, is under extensive electronic surveillance (any form of transportation ticket purchas, rental car, bank transaction, credit card transaction, phone, internet, etc.) - as are, now very likely, all of us.

I suspect numerous Members of Congress will find this situation a matter of interest, but, the most efficient way to bring it to their attention, imho, is to get the ACLU involved.

Tell her that we are all thrilled she has returned with her daughters and every true American will defend her rights.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

40. And, here's how they are doing it ....

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/24/politics/24spy.html?ei=5088&en=014edb4eb79bdf63&ex=1293080400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

And, all of this should have been published more than a year ago ....


Peace.

[EuroObserver]

74. Yep. Everything connected to everywhere else...

That's a hell of a lot of raw data. Expensive.

[Time for change]

63. I certainly will ul, thank you

The ACLU, of course. Why didn't I think of that myself. I guess that things have just been moving so fast before, and I've never had the occasion to contact them about any personal issue before.

I hadn't thought about the idea of the FBI putting her under surveillance after purchasing the ticket until I read your post. I guess you're right about that.

Either way, I just don't see what the motivation was. Do these people really think (the FBI agent, for example) that this kind of thing protects us against terrorism, or did this episode serve mainly as an outlet for his hatred? I would be very interested to know.

[understandinglife]

73. "I would be very interested to know." As would I. I suspect he was ...

... "just following orders." And, considers it his right to be "tough."


Peace.

[pitohui]

132. you don't handle cash do you?

I doubt the bank called them; they were probably sniffing the transactions.

trust me, the bank filed a report on her, the consequences of not filing such a report are extremely severe

any time you withdraw or deposit a large sum of cash, YOUR bank, yes YOUR bank, files a CTR or another report on you, based on the amount, no mysterious "sniffer" needed

i've even been asked to assist in helping an inexperienced bank clerk fill out the CTR on myself, altho they are not supposed to tell you they are doing it if they can get away w. it

congress and ACLU are aware of these regs, first passed by congress in the 80s and repeatedly upheld by the courts ever since, so you are just advising the lady to waste her time & money

but i would advise the lady to get an attorney experienced in forfeiture and to talk to him (or her, if there are any hers practicing in this area) and get the word from the horse's mouth

congress will not be shocked that $2K was reported, they would feel this is system working as it should, they would like to pass legislation making $750 in cash a reportable transaction

[understandinglife]

150. Not the issue and I'm fully aware of reporting issues with regard to ..

... withdrawl of cash.

If you re-read the OP you will notice a key sentence describing the fact that she was apprehended within a mile of the bank.

How did they know what direction she went when she left the bank? Think about it.

Whether the bank contacted anyone (as they should) or not, I think it highly likely any credit card or bank account she has was under surveillance at least from the time of the purchase of the airplane ticket, if not before. And, I suspect that they were able to apprehend her within a mile of the bank because they either already were tailing her or she was on her cellphone and that's how they knew which direction she was driving.


Peace.

[gardenista]

37. Oh yeah, I forgot to say, "Hi, Agent Mike!"

:hi:

you know where to find me...

And I suppose you know where to find everyone else posting on this thread.

Don't you wish you were doing something better with your time?

[The Doctor.]

44. Actually it's Alex who gets Friday nights now...

Mike has the seniority now to stick some other poor schlep on Friday Night DUty so he can go tie one on.

Doesn't that piss you off just a little Alex?
You know they're laughing about it too.

S'ok, another 5 years and you can get Friday nights off too.

[understandinglife]

45. And, don't forget to say "hi" to agent Amanda, as well ...

:hi:

You know the FBI is in full "equal employment opportunity" compliance. :evilgrin:


Peace.

[EuroObserver]

75. And Hi Agents José and María, por ejemplo. n/t

[Dunvegan]

48. ACLU, Time for change...

...Hope should seek them out immediately.

I'm just sick over this tyranny that used to be America.

I wonder, did Hope purchase one-way tickets in advance for her daughters?

One-way tickets are another tick in the Bush Regime's Stalinometer.

Doesn't matter...I'm appalled and sending this to my congress critters.

I hope all of us do the same.

MAKE A FUSS! SPEAK LOUDLY! AND, YES, I'M YELLING.

[Time for change]

80. ACLU is a very good idea IMO

We will try to make contact today.

Yes, Hope purchased one-way tickets in advance for her daughters. I can't imagine why one-way airplane tickets for four children of no more than ten years of age should be a warning signal.

[sakabatou]

49. Patriot Acto wa... SHINE O SURU!

[Lindacooks]

50. Well, the slide to facism is complete.

This sounds exactly like Nazi Germany.

[Time for change]

98. Interesting -- I made that point a few months ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2069007

I believe that it's only gotten worse since then.

[rumpel]

52. I am glad she is back here safe and with her children. As for banks,

I have a feeling that all financial institutions were the first to monitor all accounts and financial dealings. Just like the telecommunication industry and airline industry has been told by the administration. They've gotten their legislative wishes passed and * got his.
Just yesterday I posted, that my bank suddenly closed my company account. I was told, they had an audit because of the Patriot Act and they were scrutinizing every account now. They were only given 2 days to have all the documentation on all accounts in order. I was told something on my company documentation was not there. I am still waiting to hear what happened.
This is what happens when you have an account for close to ten years, and local banks get taken over by large out of State national banks. They lose documentation, they mix up accounts and addresses. and then comes along the data mining of * & Co.
I doubt if all of this has anything to do with posting on DU, however I am pretty sure we are not his favorite people, being vindictive, reportedly is a * family trait. But are we not too little of a fish to matter to these guys?
Meanwhile, there are so many scams, financial crimes that are rampant. The FBI does not have enough manpower to go after them. The priorities are totally screwed up.
This shows you how data mining is highly ineffective and targets the innocent wrongfully. I would write Senators and Representatives unless they fix this rampant power grab by * they will not only lose their jobs but their beloved country as they inherited it.

[Time for change]

99. Screwed up priorities - that's for sure

Fortunately there are too many of us for them to deal with.

Thank you for the well wishes.

[Straight Shooter]

54. This is so bizarre that I can't even begin to express what I'm thinking.

For now I will wish blessings to Hope and the best of all possible outcomes.

Thank you for sharing this with us, Time for change. I know this is also very hard on you and your family.

[Time for change]

102. Thank you Straight Shooter

Of course this is difficult, but the good wishes of you and so many other DUers mean a lot to us and keep our spirits up.

[LunaC]

55. I'm outraged! Let's call in the media!

The Patriot Act and domestic spying is being used to harass hard-working, innocent, foreign-born nationals. This abuse needs to be exposed by the media. May I forward your story about Hope to Helen Thomas in the hope that she'll be interested in pursuing this further or recommend another reporter/journalist who might be willing to do so?

The unbridled abuses of the Bush Administration MUST be EXPOSED and STOPPED!

[Time for change]

103. I agree with you -- this stuff needs to be exposed

The problem with Hope's situation is that her lawyer is advising her to lay low for the time being, while some sensitive issues involving her children are addressed. She wants the story to come out too, but not right now.

No problem with your forwarding this to anyone you want. Hope's real name is not out there, so that would work fine. But she's not quite ready to come public with her real name on this yet.

[LunaC]

108. Let me know when you want to go public

I'm glad I asked before I sent a barrage of emails to reporters.

[Time for change]

114. I most certainly will - thank you

Like I said, nothing wrong with feeling out some reporters at this time if you are inclined to do that. I'm just saying that she is not yet ready to make her real name public.

[TygrBright]

111. TFC--- another resource to try...

...would be a law school's professor(s) of Constitutional law. As I noted elsewhere, NO reasonable interpretation of the Constitution can possibly deny Hope from having every single right that a U.S. citizen has, except the right to vote, while she is in any U.S. jurisdiction. Those rights apply to ALL PERSONS.

And it's bloody well time that we stopped selectively according those rights only to fair-skinned people of European ancestry who can speak English fluently.

This should be a "line in the sand" case, I really think the U.S. is ready for it, with the outrage about the fascist tactics of this administration so widespread and fresh.

I can understand Hope not wishing to do anything that might jeopardize her childrens' status, naturally. But I also think that if every aspect of this case (and it IS a case!) is handled with maximum public scrutiny, any pissant INS or FBI bureaucrat trying to play 'regulation' on her will get their ass handed to them on a sizzle platter, well-done. This case EMBODIES everything that has gone wrong with America in the past two decades. It is also a hard kick in the nuts to the anti-immigration woolhats trying to hide their xenophobia under smarmy "we're not opposed to immigration, just ILLEGAL immigration" rationalizations, while they cheer on the metamorphosis of the Federal immigration bureaucracy into an exclusionary Stalinist gestapo.

My LORD this gets my bile up. Hope, her lawyer, and you have my strong support, good wishes, positive vibes, thoughts and prayers, etc. as you wade through this vile mess. Your efforts can only help expose this evil to the light. There is no chance it will shrivel up and blow away without public outrage, the sleazy petty dictators have their claws too deeply into the machine.

outragedly,
Bright

[Time for change]

115. I much appreciate that Bright - and I certainly agree with you

Hope has never said that she doesn't want to push this issue. In fact, just the opposite. She has been thrilled by the reaction of the DU to her case, and she very much wants to see it through. But right now there are some very sensitive dealings going on regarding her children, and she's hesitant to push it right now. Probably in about three weeks we will begin to take advantage of all the excellent ideas and resources that posters such as yourself have provided regarding this case.

[pitohui]

133. please follow the lawyer's advice

most of the advice i've read in this thread is pure speculation & is obviously being posted by people who have never been in the situation

[LunaC]

56. Contact these reporters

Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove, Officials Report
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISENat the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/24/politics/24spy.html?ex=1293080400&en=014edb4eb79bdf63&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

They're already covering the domestic spying angle and might be interested in your story.

[passy]

57. So your home phone was probably tapped.

And the cross referencing probably led them to DU because your ISP just handed them your internet logs.
This thread is most probably monitored.
So Time for Change I hope that you've paid all your taxes and maybe I should check mine.
In any case good luck to Hope, but it seems to me that she might not be that much safer now.
Lets hope that she doesn't loan books by Angolan or Mozambican authors from her local library, you know the gov doesn't like people reading communist propaganda.

[Vektor]

59. My guess is that they begin monitoring her as soon as she sought

asylum here. The Administration really distrusts foreigners, and they were probably on her trail like white on rice the moment she decided to leave Angola and come here.

I am so sorry this happened. It's insanity.

[Time for change]

116. But on the other hand, she WAS granted asylum here in 2004

So I have to believe that things are getting worse in this country (Of course there's a lot more than just this case to prove that.)

[DemReadingDU]

60. Glad you are here to help her

so sorry this has happened.

What happened to her money? Did she get it back without any problems?

[Time for change]

117. Yes, they gave her the money back when she was released from jail

Hope noticed however, that the agent was so rude that he didn't even count it out when he gave it back to her (like clerks in stores are trained to do). But she counted it herself, and it was all there. And she got back without any problems, thanks.

[pitohui]

134. that's fantastic she got the money back

you don't usually, you know

the only cases i know of personally where folks got the money back, it took years of litigation

i doubt the agent was trained in procedures for returning the money, since it almost never happens, he was prob. kicking himself later he didn't count it himself, he laid himself open if she had later claimed he palmed something, he just didn't think from the sound of it

i understand you are upset & feel hope was badly treated, truth was, sounds like she had the best treatment of anyone i have ever heard of in this situation

it could have been, and usually is, much much worse

[Time for change]

140. Are you saying that it would not be blatantly illegal to not give the

money back?

[pitohui]

151. of course it is not illegal to keep the money

money does not have civil rights, only persons do, money is not a person

under forfeiture law, money seized as possible proceeds of crime need not be returned unless proven otherwise, since you can't prove a negative, generally you will not get the money back, in usa a PERSON is innocent until proven otherwise but money is not given the presumption of innocence because forfeiture law is based on maritime law and NOT regular common law

as one of my friends was told, sir we realize you are not dealing drugs, we are not accusing you of any crime, but we are seizing this money as possible proceeds of drug crime

he never got his money back, his entire life savings, as an autistic, he was afraid of banks and had no social skills, a very sad story -- and, yes, if you were wondering, he was white and a usa citizen

i could tell so many stories like this because i was in a cash business but i don't want to talk yr ear off, bottom line, it's legal, it happens every damn day

america has not been america since ronald reagan, we do ourselves no favors to pretend the law is not the law

i would like this law changed

i have not been successful

primary reason -- can't get the public or media interested, most people refuse to read the law or to understand the law, and since most middle class people never handle cash, and they don't know anyone who does handle the cash, they don't understand the realities of forfeiture law, it's outside their experience, they assume that only a criminal would handle a large sum of cash

i am not trying to be mean, i would like to help hope & others like her, but her case is the BEST outcome i have ever heard of in a seizure, she has obtained her objective, what else does she expect to accomplish

the law is not going to be struck down, it has been upheld for almost 20 yrs and congress only debates whether to extend the reach of the money-laundering act, it is never going to decide to suddenly shut down the reach of the money-laundering act

[Time for change]

156. That sucks big time

I appreciate your work trying to change this.

Perhaps the only reason that they gave the money back is that Hope not only had a lawyer but one who was willing to come right over and vouche for her. He was very mad too. He probably wanted to avoid adverse publicity.

[rosesaylavee]

62. This makes me ashamed of my country...

what are they thinking?

Please let us know how this turns out, if you do file with ACLU, if you do get a journalist interested in covering this, etc.

I would shine as a bright a light on this as you possibly can - It's hard to be secret when several million are expressing an interest in teh story. Nightline, Frontline, hey, give it to Katie C on Good Morning America (OR GOOD MORNING AMERIKA - WAKE THE F*** UP!)

[Time for change]

119. Yes, their actions were definitely on the dark side of civility

I must make a note to post a follow-up on this when that is available. There has been so much interest expressed in this.

[Boredtodeath]

66. One way tickets?

I assume she purchased one way tickets for her children to fly here?

THAT was the likely trigger which raised the red flag. And if she bought her tickets online with a debit card, they had her account information handy.

I'm not saying it's right. Hell, I'm not even saying it's logical........I'm just saying that's the likely trigger that started the whole thing.

[Time for change]

120. Yes, she purchased one way tickets for her children

A few other posters have mentioned that also, but I don't see why that would be a trigger. I mean, the oldest one is ten. Can't they look at the ages and determine that this is not a red flag?

[pitohui]

135. you never heard of human trafficking?

i would say the purchase of one-way tickets for underage children is a flag that should be investigated further, certainly

you can't win, don't investigate, you make it easier for traffickers to flow thru the usa, investigate, sometimes you stop and question the wrong person

:shrug:

wouldn't you be nasty too if you thought you were dealing w. a child smuggler? fact is, she was out of jail (not prison) shorter than most people who are arrested on traffic violations AND she got the money back, which is huge, that never happens w/out litigation in my experience

it's a sad thing to happen but i personally know of many much worse cases

[Time for change]

141. Actually, I simply did not think of the possibility that they might have

suspected human trafficking.

But if that was what they were worried about, why wouldn't they seek verification that the tickets were for her own children, rather than requiring her lawyer to "vouch" for her and verification of employment?

[pitohui]

152. clearly they did seek verification

they apprehended her, questioned her, and spoke to her employer to verify employment

how would you seek verification that she was who she said she was? i'm really curious

i know of lots of cases like this, most caucasion males, one jewish male, none were treated as well as you describe, i realize it's upsetting when it happens to you, but from where i'm standing it sounds like she dodged a bullet

[Time for change]

157. But if their primary concern was that she was doing a slave trade in

children, then why would they release her before they investigated that possibility. They could have called her mother, for example, to verify that the tickets she bought were for her daughters.

[hootinholler]

77. You have no right to ask me that. Do you see my badge?

Bullshit! I have the right to know why I am being arrested. Now, in her situation it's less clear. Is a person granted asylum afforded the same rights as a citizen? My heart tells it should be so, but, my heart has been inaccurate on lots of things these days.

-Hoot

[Time for change]

121. In my opinion, even if it WAS legal to say that

(and I don't at all know that it was)
Simple common decency would have required that at the very least the FBI agent should have answered her question.

[helderheid]

78. I'm appauled. Please let her know her DU family wants the answers to those

questions as well! :hug:

[Time for change]

122. Thank you Helderheid. Hope has read the DU responses to this thread

with great interest and enthusiasm. She is thrilled to see such great interest by DU in this issue.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. Not to be too cynical, but I bet they wouldn't have even noticed if a

European woman had reserved a plane ticket and withdrawn $2000 from her own bank account.

[dweller]

88. exactly

and i tend to doubt the one way ticket scenario also. How many 1-way tickets are sold each day? Are every one of those purchasers hauled off to prison cells?

OP makes a point, that i believe has something to do with this that i think many would like to discount.

dp

[Time for change]

124. That was my thought too n/t

[thecai]

89. This Has Been Going On In America Since BEFORE 9-11

But Bush thinks the patriot act makes it acceptable.
This is unacceptable, illegal, fascist, racist, and unConstitutional.
IMPEACH the Bush Administration. NOW.

[troubleinwinter]

91. What a horrid, ghastly story.

I am so glad that Hope and her children are here with you.

I do note, though, that she was granted asylum in U.S. from Angola. Perhaps the fact that she was flying back to Angola after being granted asylum raised the flag, not the withdrawal of the money.

I do hope you contact ACLU!!

Best wishes to Hope.

[Time for change]

142. Actually, she is not allowed to go back to Angola and retain her

citizenship here. That is why I referred in my OP to going back to Africa rather than back to Angola. She had to go to a neighboring country and have the children brought to her.

And thank you for your good wishes.

[Clark2008]

93. While I'm in no way downplaying this horrific story, I can

answer one question for you: They don't have to read you your Miranda rights if they aren't going to question you.

Did they question her? Because, if they did, she can have any statement thrown out since they didn't read her rights to her.

Good luck in resolving this issue completely.

[BooScout]

107. It makes no difference...

If she was read her rights or not. Since she is not a Permanent Resident she has no rights.period. This is nothing new. It was around before the Patriot Act......I'm not saying that doesn't make it wrong, but the fact is that unless you are a citizen or Permanent Resident in this country you do not enjoy the same rights as we do. It sucks.

[TygrBright]

110. Not according to the Constitution, Boo scout....

....according to that much-abused document, EVERY PROVISION IN IT--- including the Bill of Rights--- applies to ANYONE in ANY U.S. jurisdiction. The only exception is voting, which is a right reserved to citizens.

Everything else applies to everyone, and it would take a hell of a twisted, revisionist reading of the Constitution to interpret it otherwise. Which means Bushite judges/lawyers are probably working on such an interpretation furiously even as we exchange messages on this board.

Hope has EVERY SINGLE RIGHT that I have, except the right to vote.

insistently,
Bright

[Time for change]

143. Well, the only question they asked her was whether she withdrew $2000

from her bank.

Yes, that makes sense that they wouldn't have to read her her Miranda rights unless they questioned her.

But why on earth would they pick someone up on suspicion of terrorism if they weren't planning to question the person?

[progressivebydesign]

95. I'll be her bank called on her...

I wonder if banks have been trained to call the FBI or police if someone (and this is sick and wrong) with dark skin and accent withdraws a large amount of cash. That's all I can figure out... I'm not quite sure about the part where the airport would have already known about her arrest, if she was not charged... can someone get a person on the DO NOT FLY list that fast? Just a wierd story, and I think the bank reported her, unless she was already being watched. Glad she was okay and able to fly to Africa after all...

[pitohui]

137. don't think your white skin will protect you

you said --I wonder if banks have been trained to call the FBI or police if someone (and this is sick and wrong) with dark skin and accent withdraws a large amount of cash.

this is not the case, the money-laundering act requires the bank or other financial institution such as a casino to file the report based on your actions & the amt of money, not on the color of yr skin, there are guidelines, in some cases as if you spend or deposit as little as $750 it must be reported, in some cases, if you make certain remarks, regardless of the actual sum of cash, it must be reported

i know many cases where more money was seized and the treatment of the victim much harsher, and i am talking abt white people, usa citizens, this happened to

anyone who thinks they are safe because they are white and that this only happens to the other is part of the problem

it can happen to ANYONE, the sooner the public groks this, the sooner we can get something done abt it

unfortunately as it has been going on since 1986 and even most progressives are all shocked and unaware at a case happening in 2005, i am a bit in despair that any large numbers of people will ever figure it out, after all, most people don't deal in cash or know anyone who does, so they simply don't know and get all kinds of weird ideas abt your rights

and don't forget, your traveler's checks are considered by gov't the same as cash

[Time for change]

144. It's a good thing for her that she had a lawyer to get her status cleared

Most refugees wouldn't have been able to do that, and then they would apparently be without much recourse. They could get a court appointed attourney - maybe - but I understand that a lot of them aren't much good.

[pitohui]

153. sadly court appointed attorneys are without merit in many cases

forfeiture law is a specialty area that even many highly compensated private attorneys are not competent to handle

court appointed attorneys do not have the time per client to even begin to offer competent representation in such a matter, i don't want to offend the many dedicated court appointed attorneys, some of whom may be on this site, but dealing w. cash is v. much a specialty issue that most attorneys don't know anything abt it, since it's so different from regular law

i also wish there was some sort of education program for refugees, citizens too but it more often affects refugees since they deal a lot in cash because of fear of dishonest banks in home countries, to teach them the basics of how to use debit cards instead of cash, why are usa banks are safe (fdic deposit insurance), what forms you have to fill out when dealing w. cash etc.

none of this might have happened if she had simply used a debit card to access her money when traveling instead of cash or traveler's checks, i tend to think that "everyone" knows a debit card gets you the best rate of exchange when traveling, but of course you don't necessarily know these things coming from third or fourth world

[Amonester]

96. For Hope who is free because she never did anything wrong to

anyone. (Love to you, Hope & family.)

But... but, but, but, how many other innocents who never did anything illegal, never did ANYTHING wrong are "they" silently "disappearing" in the dark of the night, without ever bringing ANY charges against them?? Where in the world are all these INNOCENT PEOPLE being actually TORTURED because "they" never stop harrasing (painfully) them to the point these poor people will give up hope, and "admit" ("lie") of being "guilty" of something they'd never done, and never even thought of doing in their entire life before??

THAT IS WHAT THESE NEOCRIMINALS ARE GUILTY OF!!

That, AND so many other evil crimes against humanity. :cry:

And WHO will STOP THESE evoil THUGS?? :grr:

[Time for change]

145. Yes, I think you bring up the most important less of this case

Hope came out of this relatively quite well, irrespective of having to go through a few hours of fear and humiliation. But what of those in a similar position who had neither a lawyer nor an employer (or perhaps only one or the other) who would be willing to come down to the station and vouch for them on the spot? It seems to me that those would be the ones who are disappearing to Guantanamo Bay. That is a very good point.

[GreenPartyVoter]

105. Unfrickinbelievable!!! I am glad it all turned out ok but this is just

not something that should be happening in the USA. :mad:

[Time for change]

146. That is for sure n/t

[BooScout]

106. Unfortunately the Patriot Act has not much to do with this....

Since I am guessing that Hope is not a yet a Permanent Resident she basically doesn't have the same rights that we as US Citizens have. The police, INS, FBI can pretty much do what they damned well please.....and since 9/11 have really abused their power over many foreigners in the US. They can hold them without letting them see an attorney or allow them to go before a judge. They can deport them instantly for any reason they see fit......even back to countries they have fled from seeking asylum in the US.

My husband moved to the US after 9/11 and was repeatedly treated like a criminal all the way through the immigration process. From dealing with the INS to get the proper visa and paperwork to something as simply as leaving and re-entering the country nfor a trip home to Britian (our biggest and bestest frined folks) he was treated like a dog. I myself have seen the INS officers at Hartsfield Airport treat foreign visitors like total dog shit....once when I asked a simple question ......"how long would my husband's re-entry clearance take?" .....an INS Officer snapped at me ......@til we feel like it" in the nastiest tone of voice you can imagine.......until he saw my US Passport and immediately changed his tune.....I have seen them grill German Citizens because they didn't know the street address of the hotel they were scheduled to stay in....the INS are the US version of Nazi's as far as I am concerned.

We finally had enough and moved to the UK......George Bush and the thing he has allowed to happen to the US is hell on earth.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

109. For a while, Portland Int'l Airport was notorious for its treatment of

Asian visitors and business people, summarily deporting or jailing them without even bothering to confirm their stories.

In one case, a Korean engineer had come to deal with a problem at a Korean-owned semiconductor plant, and the INS wouldn't even phone the company that was expecting him to see if he was legit. They just sent him back to Korea.

In another case, an elderly Taiwanese woman trying to visit her son would have been sent back if her son hadn't brazened his way into the arrival area. The INS officials were going to deport her for "refusing to answer questions." Well, duh, she didn't speak English (most elderly Taiwanese don't), and no one had thought to provide an interpreter. Her son offered to interpret, and the INS refused his assistance, saying that they couldn't trust him. So they had to sit around for hours until the INS could be persuaded to track down a Chinese interpreter.

In still another case, a young Japanese woman was coming to visit her sister, who was married to an American and about to have her first baby. The plan was that the young woman, who had just graduated from college and didn't have a job yet, would stay for a few weeks to help take care of the baby. Only she didn't speak English well, explained herself wrong, and was accused of being an illegal nanny. She protested that her sister and brother-in-law were waiting for her in the airport, but the INS officials refused to even look. The young woman was on a plane back to Japan before her sister grew worried and asked the airline what had happened.

In STILL another case, a Chinese businesswoman was jailed because the INS officials thought that her passport looked "too well used."

It got so bad that newspapers in East Asia were advising people to fly in through San Francisco or Seattle if their travel plans included Oregon.

These stories received a lot of play in the Asian-American press in Portland, but caused yawns in the mainstream. After all, some letter writers said, the INS had a thankless job protecting the nation from "terrorists." (See, as I always say, fear makes you stupid.)

It wasn't until the INS office deported a German woman married to an American, for an honest mistake in her visa application (she had been given the wrong information at another office) that the general public took notice. She had to leave her 13-month-old nursing baby behind, because the baby had been born in the States and didn't have a passport, and even the Republicans could understand the injustice of that.

The directors of the office were replaced, and besides, they soon had very little to do, because Delta Airlines stopped flying internationally out of Portland, and it was about two years before another airline came in.

[EuroObserver]

112. Thanks for that data, Lydia.

Last we discussed the issue, my brother reckoned Chicago O'Hare was the best (casually businesslike) airport of entry he'd ever used - rather than NY, Washington or Baltimore, (heading for where he frequently hangs out) for example.

Me, I'd like to visit your country one day, but...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. When I came back from Japan through Chicago, they were so

overwhelmed by the number of passengers coming through at the same time that they just let everyone go through.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. When I came back from Japan through Chicago, they were so

overwhelmed by the number of passengers coming through at the same time that they just let everyone go through.

[pitohui]

139. for cryin out loud, come visit anyway

a few horror stories out of millions of visitors every year, you couldn't even cross the street if you didn't like those odds

you know we hear the same horror stories abt how in europe they don't have the bill of rights blah de blah de blah or how in latin america people disappear into basement prisons and are never heard from again blah blah blah

but you know what?

we hardly ever hang up anyone by the toenails and electrocute their gonads just for being a tourist

i bet they don't in your country either

come visit, you'll have a blast

yeah, sometimes i get an attack of paranoia, indeed lydia leftcoast's post reminds me that customs seemed to want my entire life story when i came back from japan, but really is that any different than how they treat you every time in schipol airport (amsterdam), i'm not abt to crawl in my cave & stop traveling over it

[Time for change]

148. It sounds like racism was the motivating factor here n/t

[pitohui]

154. four minor children on a one way ticket was motivating factor

i guarantee it

[Time for change]

147. Right, she plans and hopes to obtain her citizenship in 2005 n/t

[pitohui]

123. could have just as well happened under the money-laundering act

does it really matter if it's patriot act (2001) or money-laundering act (1986), if she was on a suspicious persons list for withdrawing that amount of money, they were going to stop her either way

i'm surprised they bothered to arrest her, they must have actually thought she was guilty of something, most of the people i know caught up by this -- most prior to 2000 and thus under the 1986 law -- had the money accused of the crime while they were not arrested or accused of anything, in this way, the money could be seized under forfeiture law & the victim really has no recourse

i would love to know if she got the money back, i don't see where you say, most of the time my friends did not, one friend did, but it cost him $20K to fight the charges and to get back $17K seized, so not worth it except he needed to fight the arrest to keep his securities license

most people don't need cash, don't understand the legalities involved w. handling cash, and shouldn't be futzing with cash -- especially don't withdraw a lot of money prior to internat'l travel, get an ATM card and withdraw the funds you need at the ATM in the airport in the country where you have landed, in that way, you actually get the funds in the currency you will need anyway

i doubt any of this has anything to do w. posts on DU or w. internat'l terror, it has been going on long before DU was a glimmer in skinner's eye

what it has to do with is forfeiture law -- when cops seize money, their department generally gets to keep the money, therefore, there is a huge incentive to seize money, under the 1986 act you do not have to convict the suspect of any crime or even arrest her so cops might as well err on the side of money-grabbing and get a nicer office for themselves & a raise from the boss

as far as was it legal, i assume it was legal, it is not illegal to arrest someone and a short period of being detained, only 4 hours, and i doubt she was in prison, she was prob. in a jail or holding cell, so that really is not considered excessive, one of my friends was detained for an entire long weekend since he had the misfortune to be stopped at miami airport on new year's eve & he couldn't find anyone, not even his ex-wife, to get him out

supposedly you are only supposed to be able to phone yr lawyer, they may have even thought they were being nice by allowing her to phone the employer as well, just because YOU perceive them as being nasty doesn't mean they perceive themselves as anything but bending over backwards to be fair

people from foreign countries do have naive ideas abt the united states, however, having a lot of cash has not really been especially legal unless you are very careful since 1986, i know, for years i worked on a professional gambling team & complying w. the paperwork was truly a hassle

[Time for change]

149. The things that I was thinking might be illegal about this are:

1) Being taken to jail without being given a reason. Even being told that she had no right to ask what they were arresting her for.

2) Insufficient grounds for arresting her (other than her race and withdrawing moeny from her own checking account).

If those things are legal I fail to see why they are legal.

[pitohui]

155. ask the lawyer to explain it to you -- it's legal under FORFEITURE LAW

i have tried upstream but in short, she wasn't being accused of any crime, the money was being accused of being the proceeds of crime

i know, you feel pretty goofy when you read titles like u.s. court of appeals vs. $50,000 but this is what we've come to

money has no civil rights

money has no presumption of innocence, it is guilty until proven innocent

so, they were NICE, they gave her the chance to quickly clear it up and prove that she was employed, the kids were hers, etc.

if they had not taken her back and allowed her to contact employer to prove the source of the money, she would have lost the money, forever, because the cost of defending a forfeiture case is WAY more than $2K

i don't know of any cases personally where the person was allowed to prove the legal source of the funds, even when they could easily, not one case in my personal circle

it isn't i don't believe you, i DO believe you, but clearly they gave this lady special treatment because she was a woman and a mother

every case i know of personally has had a much much worse outcome but all of the cases i know of personally involved males, mostly caucasian, one jewish

believe me, be glad you don't know what they do when they actually get nasty, you had a good outcome

there was no racism here, there was sexism, but it worked in her favor actually

sorry to say it, but that's the reality from what i've observed

[Time for change]

158. But why do you say that she wasn't being accused of a crime?

She told me that the were arresting her for suspected terrorism?

Why does that translate into not being accused of a crime?