Bush: "we need to detect, not monitor." Key clue to whats happening.

[patcox2]

When Bush was asked why not just use FISA, he phumphered about how its a new world after 9/11, and then said something I think istelling; he said FISA is good for "monitoring," but that we need to "detect."

Well, mark my words, here is what you are going to find out. he could not use FISA because to use FISA you have to identify the particular person and phone line you are going to tap. Thats why Bush said "monitoring," you are monitoring one phone or one person.

Detection is different, the only way to "detect" information or conversation, is to listen to ALL PHONE LINES to see if you hear anything.

Get that? I think the NSA was listening to EVERY OVERSEAS PHONE CONNECTION, similar to what they do with Carnivore and data-mining the internet.

Thats why he couldn't use FISA, there is simply no legal way to authorize interception for the purpose of "detection," you have to identify whose conversations you want to listen to. (The constitution requires warrants to specifically identify the information sought). You cannot constitutionally obtain a warrant to do "detection" as I see it (and I am a lawyer).

Thats my interpretation, anyway.

[carolinalady]

1. That is what I surmised. The numbers if we ever hear the truth will

be staggering. Of course, we will never hear the truth.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Counsellor, I believe you are correct

Bush has been using this as a wholesale fishing expedition.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

3. You make a good argument.

It's the only one that makes sense to me so far.

[EVDebs]

35. Or maybe they had something to cover up ... read this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2320362&mesg_id=2320432

[helderheid]

4. that sounds about right

[orwell]

5. Nice Catch...

...bears "detecting."

[HereSince1628]

6. Yep, you've captured the distinction quite well.

You can bet that as much of the telecommunications bandwidth as the military could intercept was indeed intercepted. Millions of hours of it are undoubtedly sitting in storage.

[Warpy]

7. Bypassing a rubberstamp court

means the targets were all so utterly outrageous that only by keeping this all hidden was he able to accomplish it.

My guess is that they're all patriotic Americans, some in Congress, some in the courts, and many who post on this board and others.

[EVDebs]

36. Gotta get them Greens and them guys with the Almanacs and

those Librarians and Teachers...makin' my list and checking it twice. Oh, and that guy named Teddy Kennedy, he ain't catchin' no planes no how !

[adolfo]

41. More to consider

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5638345

[Straight Shooter]

8. Did they try to "detect" any conversations after the 8/6/2001 PDB?

Seems to me if they were going to do anything illegal in order to "protect Americans," that would have been the time. But they did nothing drastic, nothing at all, barely lifted a finger. Yet now they want us to believe that they're doing this to protect us? *snort*

[bullimiami]

9. oh it just wont be overseas. it will be widespread surveillance.

IF there is an investigation we might find out the truth.

[shance]

45. Yes. They've already stated it is domestic eavesdropping/tapping.

That's the main focus here.

[librechik]

10. Simple--he needs to decide who in advance the terrorists are

before he investigates them. So, he started with a large list: people who voted against him. Then he narrowed it down. People who spoke out against him. Then even narrower. People in Congress speaking out against him that he hasn't anthraxed yet.


That's why the names can't get out. We might recognize some names on it.

He's the pre-emptive President. Breaks the law in advance of terrorists.

[Old and In the Way]

11. Happy to put this over the top and onto the Greatest page

something I think is quite important. Words mean something...

[sabra]

12. makes sense to me...

peace.

[atxryan]

13. ECHELON has been used by the NSA for this explicit purpose for years

I think the NSA was listening to EVERY OVERSEAS PHONE CONNECTION, similar to what they do with Carnivore and data-mining the internet.

That is EXACTLY what ECHELON does. If I recall correctly, the way the intelligence agencies of various countries get around their own domestic spying laws is to 'share' information they gather about their partner country's citizens. For instance, we share information about Canadian citizens with the Canadian government and they, in turn, do the same for us.

If I were to read into Bush's recent statements, it would be that he authorized the NSA to skip the middle man and gather that information for themselves.

For a good description and analysis of ECHELON (with source links!), go here: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html

[TahitiNut]

14. In other words, "a fishing expedition."

Of course, if they get any information that might be of political or economic values ... whoa, Nellie!

[brainshrub]

15. Here are the laws Bush broke:

Bush broke the "Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act" (USC Title 50 Chapter 36 Subchapter 1) which specifically prohibits the government from doing what the President has secretly ordered and it is a serious felony with major penalties.

Read about it here:

http://www.brainshrub.com/president-wiretap

[htuttle]

16. The Echelon 'musical chairs' technique

As confirmed by an Australian secret service agent a few years ago, the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and New
Zealand intelligence agencies have a joint electronic monitoring system called 'Echelon' (or at least that's what we call it). These Echelon installations have equipment capable of intercepting telephone microwave relay stations, and typically all overseas and 'pay phone to pay phone' calls are automatically monitored (via computer, there's not human beings listening to it all).

All of these countries have at least nominal prohibitions on spying on their own citizens, so what they do is simple. Each of these Echelon stations has at least one foreign national working there (from one of the other Echelon-connected governments), who deals directly with the intelligence gathered on the host nations' citizens. Anything interesting is then passed along to the host nation. So in essence, these foreign nationals are acting as foreign spies, but 'friendly' ones basically working on behalf of the host nation.

The whole Echelon story started as apparent 'tinfoil' about a decade ago or so, but was exposed in an EU Parliament investigation after a whistleblower came forward in 2001 (the results of the investigation were released on Sept 5, 2001, btw... :tinfoilhat: ).

Here's some articles about the EU investigation:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/09/06/eu_releases_echelon_spying_report/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/09/14/this_is_how_we_know/

[xchrom]

17. bingo!

[cliss]

18. Keep talking, George.

As long as Bush keeps his mouth open, we're going to find out PLENTY.

Bush should know by now that anything they do can be refuted. The utter stupidity and lunacy of their plans will be shot full of holes.

No wonder they were so quiet a few years ago.

[patcox2]

21. Remember he used to say "Remember Poland?"

He used to say it all the time, when people asked about the fictitious "coalition" we have helping us in Iraq. Bush would say "don't forget Poland." Jon Stewart made a joke out of it once. It was wierd.

But then we find that Poland is the location of the secret CIA torture prisons.

W just cannot keep his mouth shut when he has a dirty little secret. He likes to get "cute," gives him a little thrill to think to himself "I know what that meant, but you don't, hah."

Sociopath.

[jfkraus]

19. Freedom

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin

The "cost of freedom" is not only the dead soldiers coming back from Iraq. It is the increased risk associated with having essential freedoms. To enjoy freedom, one has to accept the risk. That means all of us. Not just the poor unfortunate soldiers who are paying the ultimate price. I'm willing to live free and accept that we might be attacked again ("Live free or die"-- N.H. state motto gets it right). Like the soldiers dying in Iraq, we need to be willing give our lives to protect our freedom and our constitution, not giving it up in the name of security! If that means being the victim of a terrorist attack, so be it. Let's start showing some courage of our own and stand up for our freedom.

[savemefromdumbya]

20. and what if we the people don't agree with this 'detecting?'

strangely enough this is our country - don't WE have a say?

[emald]

22. great insight

drag net. * is a criminal.

[rateyes]

23. Well, then, they've heard a few of us say,

that Bush is an asshole! Sounds to me like you've hit the nail on the head. K & R.

:kick:

[robbedvoter]

24. In Ceausescu's Romania, ALL PHONES WERE BUGGED.

You were not allowed to purchase/use a phone that was not standard government issue (bugs included). The common wisdom was that they were picking up conversations in the room - so people would go out in the park for important conversations.
I doubted the truth of these stories until I read a book by a disident - Pacepa - who was high enough in the hierarchy to know this. he wrote about the listening rooms - where you could hook into any conversation going anywhere. The Ceausescus loved eavesdropping personally. One morning they stumbled upon a couple having sex. "Why aren't they working?" an angry Elena asked - and retribution for the couple was ordered.

[mark11727]

32. ...and look what happened to THEM.

On Christmas, no less IIRC.

[robbedvoter]

33. I was hoping for a repeat of history too :-)

But not in the duration of the dictatorship.

[AzDar]

25. It could be that he bypassed FISA because the targets weren't

all 'legitimate' targets (i.e. threats to National Security) , but political opponents and perceived 'enemies' as well; folks that wouldn't even have gotten the FISA rubber stamp...

[ewagner]

26. Good catch

I didn't listen to master pissy-pants' speech so I didn't hear him make that distinction. But what is very telling is that he knew the distinction. Normally, he wouldn't make such a fine distinction and would mangle the English language enough to confuse the two words.

His insistence on making the distinction means:

1. He probably didn't know the NSA was doing this until the Times was ready to blow the whistle.
2. He probably didn't know it was illegal until somebody explained FISA to him
3. He didn't know the distinction between detecting and monitoring until somebody else explained it to him.

Also....

His stubborn insistence on continuing the program means that somebody has a vested interest in it. I smell CHENEY all over this thing.

[adolfo]

27. Echelon

Consider Echelon, today's technologies and voice recognition. Your interpretation is the most logical explanation I've read.

[passy]

40. The UK does the spying for the US government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

"Before the September 11, 2001 attacks and the legislation which followed it, US intelligence agencies were generally prohibited from spying on people inside the US and other western countries' intelligence services generally faced similar restrictions within their own countries. There are allegations, however, that ECHELON and the UKUSA alliance were used to circumvent these restrictions by, for example, having the UK facilities spy on people inside the US and the US facilites spy on people in the UK, with the agencies exchanging data (perhaps even automatically through the ECHELON system without human intervention)."

[helderheid]

28. I think Sen Jeff Sessions on C-Span now is kinda hinting at this

[bpj1962]

29. Eavesdropping

The NSA has been eavesdropping on overseas calls for years. The difference this time is that they are now listening to calls that originated in the USA not calls in other countries. If you want to read a great book about the NSA and how they operate read a book called "The Puzzle Palace". Although it was written in 1982 it is still a very accurate book about what exactly the NSA does. The only thing that has changed since 1982 is the technology that is available to both listen and to scramble communications. My question is simply this, if I made an overseas call to Europe since 9/11 was it listened to and if so do I have any recourse as an american citizen since obviously my 4th amendment right have been violated.

[paulthompson]

30. Here's some info on Echelon

From a post of mine on another thread. Good point about detecting vs. monitoring. Here's a couple of sample entries from my 9/11 timeline. Note that supposedly the NSA failed to share the info with other agencies, but that wasn't because of some legal wall. It's never been explained why they didn't share if indeed they didn't. Monitored calls between the plot mastermind and the head hijacker - if you couldn't stop the plot with that, then what's your problem?

Summer 2001: NSA Fails to Share Intercepted Information About Calls Between Atta and Mohammed
Around this time, the NSA intercepts telephone conversations between Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Mohamed Atta, but apparently does not share the information with any other agencies. The FBI has a $2 million reward for Mohammed at the time, while Atta is in charge of operations inside the US. (Knight Ridder, 6/6/02; Independent, 6/6/02) The NSA either fails to translate these messages in a timely fashion or fails to understand the significance of what was translated. (Knight Ridder, 6/6/02)

September 10, 2001: NSA Monitors Call as Mohammed Gives Final Approval to Launch Attacks
Mohamed Atta calls Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in Afghanistan. Mohammed gives final approval to Atta to launch the attacks. This call is monitored and translated by the US, although it is not known how quickly the call is translated, and the specifics of the conversation haven't been released. (Independent, 9/15/02)

Note that these calls were probably intercepted with Echelon technology. This whole current debate about wiretapping ignores the fact that the NSA is collecting a mountain of data using satellite technology. See this entry:

Before September 11, 2001: Echelon Intelligence Network Used on Al-Qaeda
By the 1980s, a high-tech global electronic surveillance network shared between the US, Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand is gathering intelligence all over the world. The BBC describes Echelon's power as “astounding,” and elaborates: “Every international telephone call, fax, e-mail, or radio transmission can be listened to by powerful computers capable of voice recognition. They home in on a long list of key words, or patterns of messages. They are looking for evidence of international crime, like terrorism.” (BBC, 11/3/99) One major focus for Echelon before 9/11 is al-Qaeda. A staff member of the National Security Council who regularly attends briefings on bin Laden states, “We are probably tapped into every hotel room in Pakistan. We can listen in to just about every phone call in Afghanistan.” However, he and other critics will claim one reason why US intelligence failed to stop terrorism before 9/11 was because there was too much of a focus on electronic intelligence gathering and not enough focus on human interpretation of that vast data collection. (Toronto Star, 2/2/02)

[patcox2]

31. Hope the media realizes this is a domestic "Echelon," not individual taps.

Bush said "we listen to people who talk to known terrorists." This is deceptive, it creates the impression that there are individual, targeted wiretaps taking place.

People can support that, they say "we should wiretap the phones of enemies and evil-doers."

But this is different, this is, essentially, turning Echelon loose on calls originating in the US. Its such a vast, enormous government intrusion into everyone's privacy that it boggles the mind.

The fourth amendment is truly dead.

[EVDebs]

34. Loophole !!!!

James Bamford's books, Puzzle Palace and Body of Secrets, talks about a loophole in all of this. NSA training exercises, where they will listen in on domestic calls etc. as long as it is characterized as a 'training' matter.

Bush just wants to make use of the increasingly conservative nature of those being hired on by NSA and CIA and FBI:

How easy is it to infiltrate the organization, stock it with ultra-conservatives -- I note Time magazines' Aug. 4, 1997, article Kingdom Come by David Van Biema, page 52: "The FBI and CIA, drawn by a seemingly incorruptible rectitude, have instituted Mormon-recruitment plans".

Let's try for a liberal recruitment plan, huh ? Just a little bitsy 'fair and balanced' wouldn't hurt now would it ?

[upperleftedge]

38. Byrd is beautiful

Durbin is on CNN now and doing pretty good. Could it be that the Democrats will actually take a stand and do what they took an oath to do; protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. As Byrd said in quoting Paine, 'these are the times that try men's souls." These are times that will test the will of the people. Do we still have the courage to stand up to tyrants and dictators like our founding fathers and "the greatest generation" did. And do we have the wisdom to fight for peace and freedom with non-violence and the rule of law? Have no doubt, we are facing a turning point in our history. I for one welcome it.

[EVDebs]

42. Bush believes our civil liberties are a liability, not an asset

Our liberal civil rights are something that natural conservatives want to chip away at just because the word 'liberal' could be associated with civil liberties ! Gasp, word association ! Mind control !

[Blue_In_AK]

37. Good catch, PatCox...

I wondered how he was getting around that pesky "probable cause" thing.

[AnnInLa]

39. Did y'all read this? What do you think?

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/12/did-bush-domestic-spy-program.html

Did Bush domestic spy program eavesdrop on American journalists?
by John in DC - 12/19/2005 12:15:00 PM

snip


1. Bush had the authority to go the court AFTER THE SURVEILLANCE and RETROACTIVELY get the warrant to do surveillance he'd already done. He didn't. The only reason I can come up with for why Bush would NOT go to the court after the fact is because he thought the court would slap him down. The court's greatest concern would likely be spying on US citizens, and an even greater concern would be spying on either members or Congress or the American media. If Bush were spying on American media, he might just lose this retroactive warrant.

2. Bush says that these were only Americans making phone calls to people with known Al Qaeda ties. That probably knocks out members of Congress, but it very much sounds like US journalists. Who else, other than terror cells, would be talking on a regular basis with people who might have ties to terrorism? American journalists working on stories.

It could even include US journalists talking to their bureaus abroad. Read again who Bush said the program is targeting (if you believe him):

"intercept the international communications of people with known links to Al-Qaida and related terrorist organizations."

What's a "known link"? Does a journalist who has contacts inside Al Qaeda have a "known link" to Al Qaeda? Well sure he does, he absolutely has links/contacts with Al Qaeda.

3. Bush says that revealing the details of his spy program would tell Al Qaeda what we were doing and stop the program from being effective. Again, journalists. Al Qaeda already knows we're monitoring phone calls and emails, we've been doing that for years. They also know that the Patriot Act lets Bush spy on Americans (with the appropriate court orders). So what about the revelation of this domestic spying program could possibly tip off Al Qaeda to something they already know we're doing? There has to be a new wrinkle to the program, something Al Qaeda never thought we'd do. Spy on US journalists.

If terrorists knew that Bush was monitoring every communication US journalists were having a lot of their foreign sources would dry up. As much as "the terrorists" think that the US is monitoring everything, they'd be more willing to trust a US journalist since they know we don't spy on our journalists in this country. Until now.

continuted at http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/12/did-bush-domestic-spy-program.html

[eppur_se_muova]

43. Maybe, assuming *'s mouth wasn't simply broadcasting thermal noise...

as it so often does. At first read, I didn't buy this, because I have some faint idea (not from inside sources, mind you) how efficient and automatic ELINT gathering is. Then I saw that the point here is legal, not technical...NSA couldn't even gather *statistical* information on calls without having a warrant, it looks like. I think you have a point here, but whether * actually spilled the beans is open to dispute. He probably spoke with no clue what he was saying...as he so often does.

[BelgianMadCow]

44. K&R - key phrase for me too

all depends on what the meaning of monitor & detect is, of course.

Recommended for reading comprehension.

[paulthompson]

46. bump

important

[pinto]

47. Great take.. I was focused on the timing issue, too, the 72 hour window.

I figured they were targeting specific calls that would obviously not be legit under FISA review - and which would possibly raise legal questions...didn't occur to me that they were listening to all international calls from the US - fishing - which isn't legal under any statute, anywhere. Thanks for the post.

[lebkuchen]

48. This story is a Stripes headline today

and Bush's latest torturing, of the English language, will not go over well with America's forces.