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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:53 AM
Original message
Is secession the Final Solution to all this?
http://www.vermontrepublic.org/writings/vermontindependencefourstep.html

Read this little document and see if it doesn't make sense to you. I had a mini-epiphany when I saw it.
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Harry S Truman Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Eventually, I believe
Secession is inevitable - maybe by 2050. This is two nations - if not more. Whether this can be accomplished in a bloodless manner is what remains to be determined.

Just look at the electoral map. And ponder how many decisions are made because of senators and House members from Alaska or Wyoming or Kansas. It just makes no sense.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. don't say that - I live in Utah!
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. No, dammit!
America is MY country and I am not gonna leave it or break it up into tiny bits. And I live in the state that actually can secede.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. What state is that?
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. TEXAS, BABY!!!
No cracks.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Will you take GW and Delay with you?
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Dubya isn't ours. He can go back to Connecticut
As for Buggy...we got a few trees that are just about the right size...:evilgrin:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Gotcha
When dubya goes back to Conn., maybe that tree can be found on a ranch in Crawford or at least a woodshed.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. You are right!!!!
I dont want to see my country busted up. I am of the opinion there will be a second American Revolution in the next 20-25 years. I think people will finally be fed up with the politics from both sides. IMO, THAT is what needs to be changed, the political system!!!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Only if
the people don't wake up. There needs to be an option when the government no longer serves the constitution. I plan to live free (as much as is possible) so this situation (current political) can't remain an option for me for an indefinite period of time.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. For the ten thousandth time--NO!
Where would you draw the lines?


And why the heck did you use (& capitalize) the phrase "Final Solution"? Here it is in the original language: Die Endlösung....
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Where ever people have had enough.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Sorry, it's a stupid idea.
It's been tried. Didn't North Carolina stay out of the first attempt?

Name me a problem that was EVER solved by creating a new national border.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Different times and different issues.
Wasn't the revolution secession?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Bridget, what is the map based on? I can't read the legend. If it's based
on Diebold and ES&S election theft machinery, then it is not a valid, verifiable and transparent representation of "blue" and "red."

But I do think that the high-population leftist coastal areas have a legitimate grievance, in the over-representation of rightwing Republican views in sparsely populated rural areas--which are often supplemented, by the way, with big prisons placed in those areas, and the mostly black urban prisoners (who cannot vote) getting counted as heads to bolster white, rightwing Republican power, while, of course, deducting those votes from black urban areas.

The coasts pay the bulk of the taxes. Yet rightwing Republican rural viewpoints predominate--both in DC, and in the war profiteering corporate news monopolies. But it isn't just viewpoints any more. It's the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people, the torture of others, the un-named un-persons whisked away on black flights to torture dungeons in middle Europe, the Bushites spying on Americans, treason, massive theft of and destruction of the federal government that we are paying for, and to cap it all off, rigged voting machines owned and controlled by...guess who? Rightwing Republicans!

"Secession" may be a way of sobering people up. You want to play this heinous and dirty game? California and New York opt out, thank you very much. See how far you get with your wars, and your looting of our coffers, and your Christian anti-raghead Crusade without us!

We would always let "blues" in, at our border crossings--after some DNA (no Bushes) and intelligence testing. (Like, f.i., reciting the First Amendment from memory.) Don't worry, "blue" Utahans!

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous, I know--this secession thing. I mean, there are rural Republican counties in California that would lynch Mexicans if they could get away with it (when they're not employing them as cheap labor to pick their crops, clean their houses and take care of their children). It's a complicated situation, modern America.

And, anyway, I'm convinced that America went "blue" in 2004--with "blue" majorities in almost every state. Maybe even Texas. If we hadn't had Diebold and ES&S tabulating our votes, and the news monopolies DOCTORING their exit polls to match those so-called "results," and everyone who wanted to vote had been permitted to vote, and every vote had been counted--Bush & Co. would be out on their ears and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But, as it is, things are so bad that Secession comes up. The majority of people DO NOT CONSENT TO THIS GOVERNMENT, and most of us are in California and New York. So, what do we do?

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Here's where I got the map.
www.evergreenpolitics.com/ep/2004/11/the_best_postel.html

So--you want to draw the lines using a map that indicates MORE people voted "Red" than actually did. How would you recommend the "bad" folks in your oh-so-groovy "Blue" states be treated? Trails of Tears or Internment/Re-education Camps? Will you find homes & jobs for Red-State Refugees? Remember--they won't all be white. In fact, some of them won't want to leave their homes.

The election didn't go your way. The voting process is suspect. Answer--Wah, Wah, Wah. We quit!

"Secession" is not a game. Nor is it large-scaled Performance Art. The last time it happened, thousands died.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. The possibility exists also
if we implode like the Soviet Union did.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
12. It was already tried.
In fact, the issue was settled by a rather interesting war. Perhaps you've heard of it?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. Sorry but secession is not the answer
Too much of our country is intertwined throughout, it can't be done peacefully, and it will lead to the further balkanization of this country. Not a good idea 145 years ago, not a good idea now.
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. Can't see it myself
As far as I can tell, I have never read much of anything about succession in the US (other than Hawaii) Does the term "national unity" mean anything to Americans? Anything? Do Presidents even get judged on how their policies promoted national unity? When the base closing bill was passed a few months ago, did senators think: gee, if we close this base in California, they might secede from the union, I guess we better keep it. Did the threat of one or more states leaving EVER come into their thinking.

I'm Canadian, and I can tell you that for 40 years we have spent, perhaps, the majority of our energy keeping this country in one piece. Every decision at a federal level reflects this concern. It is not a road you want to travel.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
17. I Would Avoid Capitalizing That Phrase, Were I You?
Capitalizing final solution in the title of a post is pretty thin ice, friend.
The Professor
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. No way.
Would you want to live in a small republic next to a large republic filled with armed Fundamentalists? What sort of "foreign policy" do you think these "Christian" nations would have? Don't forget which states have the bomb, while you're at it.
We will either reestablish a government of laws, equality, and free men or continue to sink back into a feudal theocracy (feudalism for the rich, theocracy for the poor).
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Your Reply Is A Non-Sequitur
I was talking about the phrasing of the original post title. The term final solution, in capital letters carries a strong and notorious connotation. Your reply to me doesn't even come near my point.
The Professor
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. My reply was meant for the original message.
I mistakenly replied to your post which I would never have knowingly done considering the rather large stick up your ass.

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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Um!!! Pardon Me
Edited on Mon Dec-19-05 12:23 PM by ProfessorGAC
You admit to replying to my post in error, and all i did was point out that your reply didn't make sense if it was too my post. And you get chippy? And i have the stick up my ass?

Quite a piece or work, must you be. A simple apology would have been enough for me.
The Professor
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The "stick" comment may rate an apology (which I now make)
It was the tone of your original response prompted that comment. My original post in this thread was obviously meant for the title post. Mistakes like the one I made are actually quite common (any really long thread may have them).
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Know What Else Happens All The Time On Long Threads
People point out mistakes like, for instance, a reply that is so disconnected from the earlier point, that it must be an error. Which is, exactly what i did. Now, who has the stick, and who doesn't?
The Professor
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Apology on behalf of myself and Pr GAC
to everyone reading this thread.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. You're Hilarious
I've been here a long time. I need nobody to apologize for me. Get over yourself.
The Professor
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. I already pointed out that Oddity...
But the OP did not reply.

Thin ice, indeed.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Yeah, "Final Solution" is a bit insensitive--especially when you think
what John Bolton's, and Dick Cheney's, and Donald Rumsfeld's, and Condoleeza Rice's "final solution" for Iran might be, and also, what it might mean for the rest of us (i.e., Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark," which describes what will happen to our planet's atmosphere with even a limited nuclear exchange). (Hint: all life on earth will die.)

We are being ruled by madmen--who think NOTHING of slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people. And what might they be thinking about US, as to "final solutions," if we should be so bold as to assert our rightful sovereignty and try to stop them?

Very touchy wording.

Anyway, secession is not anything like a "final solution" (neutral meaning). It wouldn't solve the problem of warmongers in the "blue" states, or corrupt, collusive Democrats (plenty of those in Calif), or vast inequity in wealth, or what the remaining states in the formerly united federal union might do to get their cashcows back (sorry!). Or a lot of problems. People are just thinking sort of mechanically, that, a) it will stop the money drain from us "blues" into Bushite pockets for Bushite wars, and into "red state" rich, corporate pockets for ag subsidies and frankenfoods; and b) will keep our women unveiled.

But I want to go back to the red/blue thing. It seems to me overwhelmingly evident--from all the evidence that we've gathered about the real election result of 2004 (Kerry won), and from numerous (really, all) issue and approval polls for more than two years--that the "reds" are a minority of about 35% of the population (all mixed around everywhere, with some obvious concentrations). But their views are given a BIG TRUMPET by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, way out proportion to their numbers--so that the rest of us get the IMPRESSION that WE are the minority. It is an ILLUSION. It is not real. But it does make us feel...alone, isolated, disempowered. And now, of course, with the electronic voting, we are also DISENFRANCHISED.

They say things to us, like "Bush won," and we think, "Na-a-a-w. Not possible. Nobody *I* know voted for him," but we believe them anyway, without really looking into the evidence on which "Bush won" is based, because why....because we don't think these war profiteering corporate news monopolies would lie to us? Or--more plausible, "The Democrats wouldn't let that happen, would they?" (--Bushite companies running the highly insecure and hackable new voting machines on SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, and taking advantage of that situation to steal the 2004 election).

We shouldn't be asking, "Would the Dems let that happen?". The truth is that they DID let it happen--or, if you want to be more neutral, it DID happen (Bushites--natural criminals all--getting control of the vote tabulation, and not resisting the temptation to steal it for the very unpopular Mr. Bush and his junta), with Dem leadership remaining silent about it. So the question is not, "Would they let it happen?"; it is "Why DID they let it happen?"

It's not really plausible that it happened without their knowledge. Some of these electronic voting systems, owned and controlled by Bushite companies with secret programming (and no paper trail), were purchased by Democratic election officials--some of them even in California--who are born to trust Republicans, I guess. But say, it was ignorance or inattention--why didn't they scream their bloody heads off after it became evident that the election system is non-transparent, and before it could be used against us?

This problem cannot be solved by secession.

It is a very deep problem, that needs looking into. What I'm getting at is that the deepest division in the United States is not between "red states" and "blue states," nor, really, between "red" voters and "blue" voters. The deepest division--and one that seems to baffle solution--is between the majority of the people and their corrupt, collusive, bought and paid for, pro-war, pro-corporate Democratic leaders.

How can we secede from THEM?

If we vote them out--or lodge protest votes--we get Bushite mafioso. And now, with the electronic voting scam, Bushite companies (major donors to Bush; supporters of far rightwing causes) get to directly "select" who we can nominate in the primaries. It's NOT JUST corporate news monopolies and corporate and super-rich campaign money, and corporate/military contractors. It's DIRECT "selection" by them, or OUR candidates--and direct control over the final results in general elections.

And I've no doubt that they will "select" a pro-war, pro-corporate Democrat for us in 2008 (and limit our gains judiciously in 2006)--no matter what 90% of the Democratic Party rank and file thinks, and no matter what 70% of the country thinks about Bush's war. I also think it likely that they will let the War Dem win (for their own purposes--such as getting a military Draft, which Bush can't do; and expanding the war in the Middle East, which requires competent administration).

Upshot: We have one way we can secede from this Corporate War Program, and that is to...

...throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor'!

Use the War Dem's administration to get election reform. Make it priority #1. (Russ Holt's bill HR 550 would do it, just about--it bans undisclosed software, among other things. (Sign the petition at: http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html )

And start electing people who represent the majority!

-----------------------------

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."--Josef Stalin

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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I Fully Understand Your Point
I don't agree with all of it. But, i understand. I don't see secession as a viable or realistic option. But, i can empathize with your need to at least consider it.
The Professor
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. Won't happen,
unless the U.S. is on the verge of collapse, which it is not at the moment.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Not on the "verge of collapse"?
Stay up on current events lately?
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Maybe in five or ten years,
but not yet.
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Rocknrule Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
30. Better than the Final Solution
that I'm sure they have in store for us liberals:scared:
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
37. I want to be part of Canada...
It makes SO much more sense for Alaska to be part of Canada than part of the United States. I'm tired of the old US of A.
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