Lying is Fine, as long as it's for a good cause

[Armstead]

You have to hand it to the administration and the GOP. They have brass testicles.

Now that the truth has come out about the real falsness of the whole case for war, they have decided on the ultimate defense/offense.

"Who cares if we lied? It was for a good cause."

This has become more blatant now that the Iraqis have held an election. "We got rid of a brutal dictator and the Iraqis are now free, and will spread democracy in the Middle East."

Whether or not the Iraq War has a "good" outcome should not distract from the basic point. That is not what the American people were told when the case was being made for war. They were misled.

If the replacement of Sadaam with a "democracy" wa the real goal, that is how it should have been explained to the American people from the beginning. If the majority of Americans had believed that -- with clear heads unclouded by fearmongering -- then any good outcome might be justifiable.

However, it is all the fruit of a poisoned tree, because the war was based on a core falsehood.

We should not yield on that point. We should not let the administration get away with inducing "collective amnesia" about the origins of this war.

[BanzaiBonnie]

1. This is at the heart

Thanks for the great post Armstead. Use this in your conversations with others, fellow DUers. This is the heart of the matter. Keep pointing it out until it becomes clear that this administration is never to be trusted. Pound the nails in the coffin by addressing the news of the NSA being allowed to spy on citizens illegally.

Nominated for greatest!

[dusmcj]

2. This is the core Straussian principle underlying the PNAC ideology

We are right, and better than other cultures, therefore we have the right, nay the obligation, to ensure that our way prevails. In so doing, we may make use of any methodology, including those involving falsehoods and corruption.

This is Leo Strauss' core teaching, PNAC is based on his philosophical work (as taught at the J. D. Rockefeller institution the University of Chicago, alma mater of Wolfowitz and other administration playas), and the administration's foreign policy at least is based on PNAC's ideological platform statements. Direct causality. Have a nice day.

[Armstead]

3. I wish the American people had mor sense of pride

If a friend were to put someone into a rotten spot by lying to them, most people with any sense of personal pride would be angry and offended.

But when a leader does the same thing to a nation, too many people seem to be willing to put their own sense of pride aside and are willing to shut up and take it, and overlook the lies that have put us into this mess.

[annabanana]

5. If I had the power to make all of America aware

of ANY ONE THING that they don't, on the whole, know. This would be it.

[Armstead]

7. I think most know it by now

But there still seems to bve a coat of teflon that keeps them from acknowledging that fact on an emptional level.

Maybe it's a holdover from the attitude of "They know much more than I do, so they must have had a good reason."

[Inland]

23. simply put, they HAD to lie. Or somebody would stop them.

They know that what they do is against the law, against the public will, and would be stopped if known. And we can't have that, can we. No, lying really is necessary. For the good of the country, natch. And all the other stuff that's part and parcel of the good of the country---covering up mistakes, hiring cronies, handing out pork, and quid the pro quo of big business---that's all necessary too.

[kentuck]

4. He did it to "protect the American people"...

Everything, legal or illegal, is justified with that simple explanation: I did it to protect the American people.

He illegally invaded another country...to protect the American people. He lied about WMDs, nuclear materials, and imminent attacks...to protect the American people.

Now, we find he has been spying on American citizens...to protect the American people. When will people begin to see thru this Elmer Gantry, busllshitting, used-car salesman, masquerading as a president. He deserves to be under Mt Rushmore.

[annabanana]

6. I had to destroy the village

to save the village.
(nominated)

[Cleita]

8. The end justifies the means type of thinking, very facist and

very totalitarian. This is how Hitler got away with his atrocities because he kept promising the Germans that all the atrocities committed were for the common good in the end and that it was unpatriotic for them to think otherwise. Does this start becoming familiar?

[jus_the_facts]

9. Yeah sorta like lying to your kids about Santa....where does it end?

....THIS is just one result.

[Justice Is Comin]

10. All the investigations that are in the process of unravelling

will take care of this. You only need to see the secret of how the woman is sawed in half once to know how it's done. Once we have the one solid piece of evidence we need that shows this war was a hoax, Katie bar the door.

[Armstead]

11. Solid evidence already exists

The contrast between the surity of their public statements and the subsequent fuzziness of actually having real evidence.

Like when Powell showed sattellite photos of trailers, and his assertion that these were chemical weapons factories.

No -- they were trailers. It was up to us to prove they were anything more, and not up to Sadaam to prove they were just trailers.

[Justice Is Comin]

12. I'm talking about that headline

that lets the whole world know, like the spying document signed or a whistle blower that makes it crystal clear. His fingerprint on the forgery. And we'll get it. Possibly in the Downing Street Memo or phase 2.

That headline that says "Bush sends US to war for no reason." That's what I'm waiting for.

[annabanana]

13. kick for the afternoon. . . needs one more nom.. . .n/t

[seabeyond]

14. if youa re going to torture, and think it is right, quit lying about it

say you are and be done with it. this is how i am getting thru to my brother on all this bush stuff. we stopped tlaking politics, he is a limbaugh. the other night he brought it up. i asked him, do you like bush. later he says, you ask that in amazement, guine surprise anyone could. i told him, exactly, that is exactly how i feel. if he were an employee his ass would have been fired years ago for incompetence, i just have a hard time seeing how you pro business, employer type people can contunue to make excuses for his continual errors.

i also asked, torture ok. he doesnt have a problem with it, forget the whole argument. then, dont lie and tell me you arent torturing. own it.

this type talk is registering with him.

he listens to news all the time, fox. he doesnt know about abranoff, he listens to their spin on it. he thinks there is a war on christmas.

i like the position if bush does not have to follow law, neither do it. i want a bumpersticker

if bush doesnt have to follow law, neither do i

[Armstead]

15. So he condones lying too I guess

IMO the basic morality of it should transcend politics.

They gave a false reason to go to war. That means they were eitehr massively incompetant or were deliberatly misleading the public -- including people like your brother.

IMO if your brotehr had any sense of self-resepect, he would resent being lied to. Regardless of whether it was Bush or Clinton or any other president.

[Armstead]

16. PS -- Why do people like that get all worked about Clinton's lie?

Ask your brother why Republicans got so worked up over Clinton's lie about a private sex act, but they are so willing to look the otehr way abut a lie that sent this nation to war.

Their priorities are all screwed up.

[seabeyond]

20. oh i did. he says you hate bush like i hate clinton. why i say, why do

you hate clinton. his policy was center. he did things for repugs. what do you hate. outside sex. then i told him about bush 1988 at convention center.... reporter asks what do you and father talk about when you dont talk politics..... pussy bush said. (my brother has a 13 yr old daughter). i told brother, good ole christian man my ass, he has a wife and then two 8 yr old daughters he sits at dinner table with. what father would say something like that. then i told him about bush stripper girlfriend until 1999. and geoge H girlfriend that went to europe with him. brother says, that would be reported. never was, and reporters knew, and i say, i dont give a shit about personal life, i care about what effects my life, the policy, and bush has proven incompetence every step of the way. that is what i care about

i asked him to tell me just why he hated clinton. i say, i dont like how clinton treated women, and i dont want to be his friend, but his job, what did he hate about clinton as far as clinton being president. and there wasnt a lot there.

for the repug he is, it was good he heard some of this and he listened which generally doesnt happen. generally it gets to yelling real fast. i asked him, do you ever tell daughter the other side, the good about dem or does she just hear the neg. told him also his daughter doesnt like hearing fox all the time in the truck, and it is making him awfully angry all the time, that they work at making you guys angry.

we will see. he couldnt even find things to defend bush, tell me why he liked him.

[seabeyond]

19. no, he cannot condone the lying. that is why that hit him in the face

he will validate the torture, seeing it is war, we are tortured and rationalize that as limbaugh teaches these people to, regardless of our educated argument torture immoral, the innocent caught in it, it doesnt work. but..... if you believe it is ok to do, then say it. that is the argument he didnt have rush to rely on. that is what pissed him off with his oreilly he respects when i told of the two false stories on the war on christmas

as i say, i have not even tried talking ot politics. this was a time of bringing the lying to him. that he wasnt aware of. we got to get these people that do have integrity remember, they dont like lying. they dont condone it. the fight against it.

then what comes up, the spying on americans. law breaker and constitution tromping. he doesnt have to follow law, neither do i

[bonito]

17. Kick n/t

[otohara]

18. Yes and We MUST Support This Madness

it's for our own good! And those who don't want American's to die by the millions.

[Initech]

21. So let me get this straight...

Lying about a blow job in front of a grand jury - impeachable offense

Lying about a war on the senate floor that so far has killed more than 2100 troops for a unknown cause - fine

Wha? Am I missing something here?

[JNelson6563]

22. It's a biblical thing

and they are big bible fans, at least the parts they like.........

Julie

[Armstead]

24. Somewhere in the Bible it must say something about lying