Protest Tookie's death YES, celebrate his life - NO.

[MyUncle]

THE WILLIAMS EXECUTION
Large Funeral Planned for Williams, Friend Says
By Maura Dolan, Times Staff Writer


Barbara Becnel, who led the campaign to save Stanley Tookie Williams' life, made arrangements Tuesday to receive her close friend's body, and said she and others were planning a major public funeral for him in Los Angeles.

Becnel said the ceremony would take place in a Los Angeles church and would be on the scale of the funeral for Rosa Parks. She said details would be announced later this week...


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-funeral14dec14,1,3936788.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I have a realy queesy feeling about this. I highly respect those who stood up to protest the execution and the Death Penalty. But to even mention him in the same breath as Rosa Parks is an insult of the highest degree and should not be tolerated. Tookie's life and choices were no cause for celebration.

Please, those who protested his execution, move on to the next person who might lose their life.

[LaurenG]

1. I agree with you on this

To say anymore wouldn't add anything to your statement.

[PurpleChez]

2. I echo OhioBlues

and thank you for the post

[ET Awful]

3. If you knew what Becnel has done and, like her, had seen the

results of Williams' outreach programs over the past decade, you might think a little differently.

He's no saint, but the efforts he made in the past decade are definitely worth applauding and celebrating. Just ask any of the tens of thousands of kids who stayed out of gangs because of his efforts.

[MyUncle]

4. Sorry, but I don't agree.

I can not see the evidence of people not joining gangs because of his work. All I am saying is the passion of the no Death Penalty crusade is wasted on this man now that he is gone. Use that voice to point at the next slotted for execution.

[ET Awful]

5. As I said, if you knew what BECNEL had seen, you might change your

mind. Of course, you don't. I'll venture a guess that you don't work with at-risk youth at all, and most likely wouldn't have seen the effects. Of course, if I'm wrong, and you deal with at-risk youth please let me know. I'm pretty sure you don't.

I still don't believe that the entire truth behind the Williams story is known, and I believe that a man was put to death who may well have been innocent of the murders for which he was executed.

You should maybe do some research on how kids reacted to his outreach programs.

Sorry, but Williams was a human being, and any effort or tribute to him is not "wasted", any more than have a funeral and wake for your dear depart Aunt Millie is "wasted." To insinuate otherwise simply falls into the pro death penalty technique of dehumanizing those who are executed.

[MyUncle]

7. Tookie co founded the Crips.

He is to gangs what Hitler was to the Nazi Party. Even if he is innocent of the 4 killings, the spawn of his Gang, live on, creating mayhem. To equate him in any kind of heroic manner is just plain wrong. I have no issue with Becnel other than to use Tookie's name in the same breath as Rosa Parks.

[ET Awful]

8. You really haven't researched this at all have you?

Gangs existed in LA beginning pre WW II. The Crips existed before Tookie. Raymond Washington started the Crips, Tookie came later.

Read this: http://www.nagia.org/Crips_and_Bloods.htm

then read this: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.crips.reut/index.html

Only someone completely ignorant of the facts would make the Hitler statement you made. There is no correlation. Making that statement shows how massively ill-informed you are on the matter.

If you'd ever worked with at-risk youth, or had any interaction with gang members or ex-gang members, you'd know that the only one that credits Tookie with starting the Crips is Tookie. They started as the "Baby Avenues" and were created by Raymond Washington. They were also known as the Cribs or Avenue Cribs. This later morphed into Crip. Washington formed the gang, Williams came later.

I suggest you read the above, then get back to me.

Also, there was no comparison made to Parks other than the size of the funeral service. Or did you miss that fact in your rush to attack?

[Ariana Celeste]

25. Thanks for the links

I didn't know that the Crips started that way. Learn something new everyday, :). :hi:

[ET Awful]

27. Honestly, it's very interesting stuff if you really delve into it.

It's almost like a massively accelerated version of the mafia or something. Instead of forming over centuries in Sicily, it formed over a period of time starting prior to WWII with the zoot suiters and such, which developed into Mexican gangs where were responded to with black gangs, and so on down the line.

It says much more about society as a whole (especially inner city society) than it does about any single individual involved along the way.

Until the recent media frenzy, if you'd asked a typical Crip who Williams was, he probably wouldn't have been able to tell you. If you asked them who Raymond Washington was, they'd know.

[NaturalHigh]

43. You're really invested in this "Tookie" guy, aren't you?

You seem to go into attack mode (here and in other threads) whenever someone mentions his founding (or co-founding) of the Crips. The research that you've offered up (here and in other threads) doesn't dispute that Mr. Williams was a pretty bad guy.

[dsc]

59. The Nazi Party existed before Hitler as well

Some people suggest he was actually sent to spy on the Nazis and got coverted by them. But in any case, Hitler didn't found the Nazi Party.

[ET Awful]

64. LOL . . . are you familiar with Godwin's Law?

If not, you might want to investigate it a tad.

If you wish to draw a comparison that way, fine. . . . but you'd have to leave out and ignore obvious items such as after Williams was removed from the scene, the gangs expanded by leaps and bounds, without him. When Williams went to prison, there were fewer than 1,000 Crip gang members. He wasn't needed for them to grow. Not so with the Nazi Party. Without Hitler, it collapsed.

But, enough, Godwin's Law - look it up. Here, I'll give you a headstart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[dsc]

69. ah the Nazis may have collapsed due at least as much to

the allies as Hitler being gone. It is totally absurd to argue that Hitler's suicide and that alone is why the Nazi's collapsed.

[ET Awful]

70. I notice you didn't address Godwin's Law

Good job.

If you'd like to pursue that argument, the original leader of the Crips (Raymond Washington) was killed by another gang in 1979. Various Crip gangs have been under constant attack by other Crip gangs, Blood gangs, hispanic gangs and asian gangs, along with Police, Sherriff, FBI, etc. not just in LA but nationwide (or worldwide for that matter). They still grew. Your comparison is entirely without basis in fact, and I think you know it. Otherwise you would have addressed the facts.

[dsc]

71. I did address the facts

You made the absurd statement that Hilter's suicide caused the demise of the Nazi party. I addressed that. Had we not been invading but simply Hitler got hit by a bus in say 1942, I think the Nazis would have done just fine without him.

[ET Awful]

74. What I said was that without Hitler, the party did not grow

not the case with Williams. Without him, the Crips grew astronomically. Without Hitler's leadership, the Nazi party neither grew nor continued. In essence, yes, they collapsed.

If you actually believe that the Nazi Party would have continued to grow in 1942 without Hitler, you aren't too familiar with history. Without his public persona, and rallies, the party would not have grown into what it was (perhaps you should read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich). It was his charismatic presence that catalyzed the movement.

Your lack of historical knowledge is astounding for someone who is supposedly getting their masters.

[dsc]

81. By 1942 the Nazis ran Germany

They were in control of virtually all of what we now call Western Europe and much of Eastern Europe. I think it is nothing short of ridiculous to think that the Nazis would have just withered if Hitler had been hit by a bus in 1942.

[ET Awful]

87. Then you don't know too much history.

The majority of the German populace followed Hitler, not the party, he was the "Fuhrer" without him, the massive public support would have withered. Whether you doubt it or not is immaterial. Hell, one needs only look at the turmoil the party was thrown into after a failed assasination attempt to see what I'm referring to. The whole nation came to a stand still.

Of course, you post theories, I post facts. I post information from sources, you post . . . your opinion with nothing whatsoever to support it apparently.

You too are no longer worth my attention.

Bye bye.

[dsc]

89. I am not claiming he was totally unimportant

but we still have Republicans here some hundred and fourty plus years after Lincoln's assassination. Parties, especially those in power, have a way of surviving assassinations quite well. Hitler's death might have dented their support a little but they would have still had the entire machinery of the military and the government behind them.

[6th Borough]

37. I could be mistaken, but I believe he led the West Side Crips...

Not the whole organization.

Crips have killed more Crips than they have killed Bloods, and vice-versa.

[ET Awful]

38. Well, you might have that impression if your only source of info

was "Redemption" or the like. They give a very compressed and dramatized version there. A better source would be Do or Die by Leon Bing (the book has it's problems, but is very honest, the main problem being her representation of the way her interviewees speak, i.e. spellings, etc.). Another would be Monster by "Monster" Kody Scott (aka Sanyika Shakur) (a very well-known Crip that left the gang in the 90's).

The link I posted above gives a very good history of LA gangs.

Of course, led is a very different thing than "created". But, that's beside the point. Yes, he was a prominent gang member, but he hardly created the concept.

[monobrau]

15. "tens of thousands"

That is complete and utter bullshit.
This would mean a significant drop in gang activity.
Show some proof to support this ridiculous claim.
This isn't freeperville, where you get to just spout bullshit as fact and go unchallenged.

[ET Awful]

17. No, a significant drop would result if people currently in gangs left

That is not what I said. The growth, however, was decreased through his efforts.

What is bullshit is the number of people here who have never done any research into the gang situation and are pretending to be experts.

Start here http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tookie29nov29,0,7551765,full.story Do some reasearch. Instead of just repeating what you THINK, do research and educate yourself.

Groups working with at-risk youth worldwide have used thens of thousands of his books to reach youth.

That also leaves out gang truces broked w/Williams help in places ranging from New Jersey to South Africa and even Europe.

Hell, read some of the e-mails these people sent him http://www.tookie.com/mail.html

Maybe even listen to him in his own words: http://www2.tonyrobbins.com/PowerTalk/STWInterview.htm

Or do you not want to humanize him by doing that?

You're right, this isn't Freeperville, here people would typically educate themselves before making inane remarks.

[monobrau]

31. Research?

Reading the LA Times is not research. (I read that article when it came out, btw)
I've read his words, and I'm not that impressed. It's not a big revalation that robbing and murdering people is bad and you shouldn't do it.
But back to your bogus claim.
You cited a number. Show me a peer reviewed study that backs that number up.
Or barring that, tens of thousands of affadvits from kids who claim they turned away from
gang activity as a result of tookie's teachings.
Otherwise you're just making shit up, and it's not helping bring about the end of the death penalty for everyone, not just people like Tookie who had connections.

[mitchum]

32. But...but...but...he kept Mike Farrell from putting on colors...

so that's at least one

[ET Awful]

36. Geee, that was a great contribution.

Do you have any other enlightening (translate that to uninformed and snarky) comments to add?

[mitchum]

42. Some of us possess wit and others are burdened with misplaced priorities..

Just what methodology DID you use for your preposterous claim?
I am curious.

[ET Awful]

44. Preposterous?

Once again spoken like someone who hasn't read a thing to do with the matter.

Wit involves intelligence, your post lacked that.

Tell you what, READ the links I've posted. You might actually learn something, although I doubt it, since you seem to be suffering from a severe case of cognitive dissonance. I didn't make up the numbers (once again, you'd know that if you'd actually READ).

Bye-bye, you aren't worth my time, I only engage in discussions with people willing to research what they're discussing before they discuss it.

[mitchum]

47. You only engage in discussions with those who agree with you

tell the amen corner I said "hi"

[ET Awful]

48. No, I engage with those who present arguments with back-up

So far all you've done is make snarky comments. No links, no evidence, nothing but wise-assery.

When you've bothered to research, come and talk to me, until then, you're just talking shit.

I've presented you with several links, none of which you've read. I've presented you with several facts, none of which you've investigated.

To me, that proves that you have no interest in engaging in legitimate debate.

Tell the cognitive dissonance corner I said "wake the fuck up."

Do some research, I have. Read the available information, I have. Insulting instead of reading the provided information is not a legitimate method of debate, but it seems to be your preferred method.

When you've actually read the information I've given you, and you actually have tried to educate yourself on the matter, come back and talk to me.

If you're unwilling to do that, then you aren't even attempting to engage in an honest discussion, and thus aren't worth the time.

[ET Awful]

34. LOL . . . a peer reviewed study?

What a load of horseshit.

Not everything is peer-reviewed. (Also, a peer-reviewed study is performed in a medical or scientific context, where there are peers to review it, it's not typically performed in a statistical context, do you ask for a peer review of an AP/IPSOS poll?)

Sorry if you can't find information for yourself. I provided you with a starting point.

The numbers come from folks like Barbara Becnel, not myself. If you don't like them, talk to her.

Of course, if you'd done any research, you'd know that Williams didn't have "connections." Becnel despised him when she met him. She went in to write a book on her own as a journalist.

12 year old kids don't write affidavits. Ask Becnel (or hell, read court filings with letters from kids attached for that matter).

Until then, you're spewing your opinions based on nothing but your opinions.

Until you're willing to speak with Becnel or contact her (I have in the past), you have no clue what you're talking about. So, until you actually educate yourself, you aren't worth speaking with.

As I said, you've oviously never worked with at-risk youth. You've never seen the reaction among kids when they see someone from their own background (instead of some sanctimonious prick in a suit) telling them the dangers. He didn't just write books (you'd know this also if you'd done any research). He recorded videos which were used worldwide, he engaged in conference phone calls with youth centers across the country, some of them on a weekly basis. He held programs inside the prison where extremely at-risk youth were introduced to what it was like (much like the Scared Straight programs used in the 70's which were found to be very effective).

Once again, I don't believe you've done ANY research into the subject. Tell you what, write to Becnel, ask her for her back-up. She's provided it to the court and to others, I'm sure that she'd provide it to you as well.

Maybe you'd like to speak with the president of the National Lawyers Guild?

http://www.nlg.org/news/statements/TookiePR.htm

How about the president of the San Francisco Board of Education?

http://edjustice.blogspot.com/2005/11/educators-for-tookie-williams-books.html

Of course there's also the fact that the 9th Circuit when they reviewed his case recommended clemency. (will post the exact text of their recommendation later, don't have it handy right now.)

Then of course you could read:

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/gasper181105.html

Or do you really not want to know the facts? Maybe stay secure in your haze of moral indignation?

[dsc]

60. Statistical studies are peer reviewed all the time

It is pure nonsense to suggest they aren't. Virtually all research is statistics based especially in fields such as education and social sciences. And yes, before being published those studies get peer reviewed. Certainly if thousands of people were kept out of gangs based in this man's work there would be some study to back that up. It wouldn't be all that hard to produce it.

[ET Awful]

65. Please provide an parallel example of a directly comparable situation

I don't mean a study on the life and indigenous territory of the mediterranean fruitfly, I mean something directly comparable.

Once again, I'll suggest that you read the information I've posted, and contact Barbara Becnel. Until then, you're simply spewing what you think, instead of what's supported by the available information (which is, indeed, provided above and through the numerous links I've posted).

[dsc]

68. A directly comparable situation would be the effectiveness

or lack therof of anti drug programs such as DARE. Studies were done comparing school districts using DARE to demographicly similar ones which didn't. The increase or decrease in drug usage among students in those districts were then compared. Similarly you could either compare the increase or decrease in people joining gangs in a locale where Tookie worked to one where he didn't or compare pre and post Tookie rates. Again, as an educator who has had to read such studies in preperation to getting my masters I can assure you they are done all the time.

[ET Awful]

72. Not a valid comparison. It doesn't take into account other factors

such as economic, social, etc.

Of course, DARE was a government financed program, not so with Williams efforts which were entirely donor funded at first, then funded with the revenue from his book sales.

Once again, read the information I've provided. I would think someone who is getting their masters would be willing to investigate the information with which they are provided, but apparently not. If you want to see the results of his work, simply look at the level of gang violence in areas where his Peace Protocols were implemented (start with New Jersey, then try Switzerland, then South Africa, his programs have been used in all of them, you might also want to check into the "Hands Across Watts" program which was his first use of that protocol and resulted in many gangs calling a truce between them in Watts).

Basically, what you are doing is repeating theories with no supporting information, ignoring the contrary information with which you are presented, and despite that lack of investigation or support, surmising that you are somehow in a superior position.

Unless you are willing to read the information with which you are presented, your argument holds no merit.

[dsc]

80. Some responses

First, government funding has little to do with the ability to have a study of effectiveness done. It may make it required, though, I am not sure studies on Dare were done for years after it was in effect.
Second, demographicly similar is intended to take care of other factors. One of the reasons for peer review is to test if the groups really are demographically similar.
Third, it would be exceptionally easy in this case to do a study. Since it has only been done in a limited number of areas it should be easy to find an area demographically similar to one of the ones where his program has been in effect.

On edit and finally

I have read your links, I had read them at work, but reread them before posting this edit. There is not one whit about reductions in gang violence let alone about such reductions which can be attributed to Tookie Williams. Bottom line you made a claim, evidently via another source, that he kept thousands from joining gangs. It seems that there should be some evidence of this massive drop in gang activity that you could show us.

[ET Awful]

84. Then you haven't actually read the links.

Read the reasoning behind the Swiss Parliamentarian's nomination and you'll see violence he stopped. Read about the use of his Peace Protocol in Watts, New Jersey, Switzerland and South Africa.

When you've done that, let me know. . . until then, you haven't actually read anything . . .

I'm done with this thread, you haven't read a thing, otherwise you'd address it.

Have a nice weekend.

[dsc]

88. You have provided two links

neither one has a statistic of any kind in it.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ET Awful]

86. Gee, I notice that, as you have throughout this thread, you provide

NOTHING to support your position.

Bye bye, you're going on ignore, you aren't worth my time.

[fishnfla]

6. Tookie compared to Rosa Parks? Beyond quesy. Full out retch

:puke:

[ET Awful]

9. Actually, he wasn't compared to Parks, the size of his funeral was.

I love how you people attack media pundits for misrepresenting facts, then do the same yourself as soon as you get a chance.

[donheld]

10. I can't agree more

It's beyond sick. It totally denigrates Ms Parks.

[ET Awful]

11. Only if you don't read what was said, since no such comparison was made.

The size of the funeral for two people in no way compares the two people.

[fishnfla]

13. Then they should've compared it to the funeral of another asshole

from California. Ronald Reagan maybe.

Look, we did not write the article or make the statement. Comparing this man's birth even to Rosa Parks' is insulting.

You are the one twisting words here

[ET Awful]

14. You didn't write the article, but you misread it, misrepresented what it

said, and twisted it's words.

Intellectual dishonesty is not a good trait.

I also find it interesting that you now blame the writer of the article, who isn't the one that made the statement.

Did you read the article or are you just engaging in reactionary rhetoric?

[fishnfla]

16. Maybe you are right. Think Bill Clinton will show up for it?

nt

Edit: I am not blaming the writer of the article. You are the one accusing us of twisting words.

[ET Awful]

18. First you say that they compared Williams to Parks.

Then when I point out that this isn't what was said, you say "we didn't write the article" then when shown that not even the author of the article made the statement, you change positions again.

The mere initial statement that they were comparing Parks to Williams is, in fact, a twisting of words.

Will Clinton be there? Could be, wouldn't guaranty it. I know Jesse Jackson will be. I know many other people I respect and admire will be.

[fishnfla]

19. Forget Intellectual honesty, lets just be plain ol' honest

The "scale" of this funeral will be nowhere near Rosa Parks'

Nor should it be

[ET Awful]

20. Really? I think you understimate how well respected he was

I think you will be very surprised. That's assuming there is any media attention paid and that they don't engage in reporting that the same way they do an anti-war rally (i.e. estimate the number at 1/10th or so of what's there).

Look at the names that spoke publicaly against his execution, and you can bet most of them will speak at his funeral. There are a lot of them. They range from Jesse Jackson to Jamie Foxx to Mike Farrell to Snoop Dogg (who is an ex-crip himself) to the Winnie Mandela.

[fishnfla]

21. Do you think he was well-respected as Rosa Parks?

I'm a little confused: Do you or do you not believe there is a comparison between the two? :shrug:

[ET Awful]

22. LOL . . . there you go twisting words again.

For your comparison to be valid, everyone that ever respected either of them would need to be at the funeral.

You once again have twisted the size of a funeral to be a comparison of two people.

You don't have to have an equal amount of people on the planet who respect two individuals for their funeral to be equal in size and scope.

If 10 million people respect Parks, and only 5,000 can be at the funeral services, but (for the sake of argument), 500,000 have deep respect for Williams, but 10,000 can be at the funeral service, it doesn't mean he was more respected now does it?

Why do you continue to twist words and make strawman arguments?

damnant quod non intelligun

[fishnfla]

26. I just want to know if you believe you can compare the 2 or not

simple question: do you honestly believe there is a comparison between Rosa Parks and Tookie Williams in any other way than the size of their funerals?

Why or why not?

[ET Awful]

29. Sure there's a comparison, but not in the way you think.

They represent opposite ends of the diaspora of black America.

They are comparable in the same way that say Timothy Leary and Charles Manson are comparable. They are very, very different, and represent completely opposite ends of the spectrum but are comparable in that they do share similar roots.

Williams was born in the South, experienced that discrimination as a young child, moved to LA and experienced a different kind of discrimination (for instance, one of his first days there, another kid asked him his name, then beat the crap out of him for no reason).

There are certainly comparisons that can be drawn, just not in the way you seem to be implying, and not in the context of this article, and certainly not in the same context as this discussion.

Does that make sense?

I mean, you can compare a rat and a bunny rabbit if you try, that doesn't mean you're saying the rat is a wonderful animal and better than the bunny rabbit.

[snooper2]

78. Where/Are you in love with Tookie?

Because you seem to have quite a desire to defend him and discuss him. Maybe you are just obsessed with him? Regardless, it appears to be unhealthy FYI.

[ET Awful]

85. Ah, the refuge of someone with no argument is to make

childish accusations. Are you in love? What are you 12? That may be the most childish thing I've ever seen posted on DU.

Actually, I have dealt with, spoken with and been involved with people that have benefitted from his programs. I defend truth. If you have a hard time with that, feel free to ignore me, for I will certainly be ignoring you in the future.

Are you in love . . . That's a new low in debating on DU.

[Obamanaut]

49. I've read all of your posts in this thread, and some of the other

threads as well. The posts 'seem' to be well thought out (quotes because one cannot be sure that they actually were), and many included a bit of snarkiness thrown in with the information. The reason for a Latin quote escapes me, and I think you misspelled 'intelligun'. The page of pithy Latin quotes I use shows it to be 'intelligunt', but my source may be incorrect. So, to end with a question, why do you talk down to us?

Quid quid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

[ET Awful]

54. I don't talk down to you.

The quote means "they condemn what they don't understand". . . seems rather fitting don't you think?

It's entirely possible I mistyped it. . . in fact, you're right I did mistype it, my apologies (it's been fixed in my sig line, too late to edit in the above posts though).

I don't mean to talk down to anyone, except perhaps those who attack me without actually looking at the information I provide for them. (I don't think you're in that group btw).

[Obamanaut]

57. I know what it means, here's a link

I look up stuff frequently - when I read a post and I find it to be interesting, I then read various cites that I find with Google - not all of them, but several. I worked in a prison in the education department as a special ed teacher aide. Many of our young (under 21) men were either products of gangs or victims at one time or another. Before that, I was a guard, and we had regular training sessions on the various gangs that still have representation in the prison system.

All in all, I've enjoyed your posts, and learned a lot that I did not know, even with my prison work experience. But in nearly every one, I felt like I was being yelled at. Your writings presented a lot of food for thought, but I really don't think any of this will change anyone's mind, unless they too do some research on their own.

Take care.

Errare humanum est
To make error is human.

http://www.int-alt.com/latin.php

[ET Awful]

58. I think maybe the reason it sounds like I was yelling

was because I was responding to people who feel no desire to actually research the information and would, instead, rather sit there and call me a liar. I mean when I cite specific information, then get told it's "preposterous" and see it insinuated that I made up the information, I get a little irate.

Sorry if it came off that way, as the "yelling" wasn't really directed to you, but to those who attack me without reading the information I provided.

I'm glad you've learned something from the info I provided, it makes me feel like I'm not wasting my efforts :).

If you talked to some of the current and former gang members or at-risk youth that were affected by Williams' work (i.e via his peace protocols, books, conference calls, etc.), you'd be truly amazed at how effective he really was.

[Obamanaut]

62. The older men were kept all info to themselves, and the young

ones never got into specifics with us in the ed dept., and certainly not when I was a guard. Our goal was to identify and monitor in the hope that we could avoid confrontations by opposing groups. Usually we had some degree of success.

When in the ed dept I had to deal with young men as young as 16, of all races. Some days were harder than others, because we knew that each one of these children had people somewhere that loved them and were quite likely distraught that they could not put the kids on a different path. Some of the kids wanted to do better, others did not.

I met an older man (late 30's) serving a life sentence who asked for help getting into our education program so he could learn to read. Because of the length of his sentence, he was not eligible for a seat in the classroom. So, we found him an inmate tutor, and he began one-on-one classes to learn to read, with his goal being a GED. He wanted this so he could show his young relatives on the outside that if he could do it as an inmate, they could do it while 'on the street.' This man also had an unpaid prison job. I spoke with his supervisor (security staff) who said that as long as the man was in our classes trying to learn, he could have as much time as he needed. I tell you this in an effort to dispel the myth that all prison workers are ogres.

Take care.

[ET Awful]

63. I know they're all not ogres.

The sad part is that so many have become so jaded that they tend to miss the ones who can and want to be helped.

It's actually quite similar to inner-city schools where many teachers have become so jaded that the extremely bright and eager students are sometimes neglected because of cynicism and lack of caring. Of course there are a LOT of teachers who care, but many just become lackadaisacal about it.

And, of course, the two are closely linked. If the schools were better equipped, many of the kids might not end up in prison and the cycle might be broken.

[Silverhair]

46. Jesse Jackson shows up anywhere there is a news camera. NT

[rpannier]

50. You got that right

I'm surprised Geraldo wasn't there as well.

[NaturalHigh]

45. Intellectual dishonesty?

You've dished out plenty on this thread and any time "Tookie" is mentioned. Are you just an admirer of his, or do you have some other reason for trying to convince us all of the virtues of "Tookie"?

[ET Awful]

12. It never ceases to amaze me how often people twist the English language

Nowhere in that article or in Becnel's statement is Tookie compared to Rosa Parks. It doesn't happen.

It says the funeral service will be the same size. Nothing more.

Sorry, but saying that "Becnel said the ceremony would take place in a Los Angeles church and would be on the scale of the funeral for Rosa Parks" compares Tookie to Parks is almost O'Reillyan in nature.

[dsc]

61. Actually since you are lecturing everyone else on words

it doesn't say the same size it says the same scale. Scale implies a comparison based on importance as well as size. Frankly the author should have chosen her words more carefully.

[ET Awful]

77. LOL . . . the author?

It wasn't the author who made the statement. There you go twisting the truth.

Scale isn't referring to importance. It's referring to the number of people, the number of speakers, etc. Of course, you're not looking for truth, you're looking to sling mud and argue. Scale, by the dictionary definition means "relative magnitude", as in size.

[dsc]

82. Incidently I actually looked at an online dictionary

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0117300.html

You will note that my definition appears in number 3, yours not at all.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleetus]

23. well said

"I have a realy queesy feeling about this. I highly respect those who stood up to protest the execution and the Death Penalty. But to even mention him in the same breath as Rosa Parks is an insult of the highest degree and should not be tolerated. Tookie's life and choices were no cause for celebration. "

Well said...

[ET Awful]

24. Yet another one who didn't read what the article or statement actually

said.

It didn't compare the two, it merely compared the size of their funeral services.

Is it an insult to say Williams and Parks both died in 2005? Nope. Nor is it an insult to say that Williams funeral will be the same size at Parks. There is nothing there to be insulted by unless you try to read something into it that isn't there.

damnant quod non intelligun

[McCamy Taylor]

28. All life is worthwhile and he spent most of his in jail doing good.

Too much dualistic thinking is what leads to death penalty/holcaust and all the hate in the world.

Just celebrate his life and mourn his death. It is as easy as that.

[ET Awful]

30. Well, in all fairness, I wouldn't say "most" of his life.

He spent the last decade or so of his life doing good.

Up until then . . . I wouldn't give him too much credit.

So, I agree with you completely except for the "most" part.

[MyUncle]

33. ET, your points are made well, you do know your "shit" but,

the fact is this funeral is going to be something that I can never agree with. He has attained celebrity and celebrity will get together and make a spectacle with media support. His crimes will be glossed over, the people he hurt or caused to get hurt will be forgotten, the violence over the glamorization of the gang and drug culture that is killing Blacks will not be mentioned.

It sounds to me that you are somewhat fascinated by gang history and liken it to the Mafia in a clinical fashion. I grew up in NY, I know people in the Mafia and gangs. Whatever redemption they claim when their life is on the line pales to the heinous acts they committ while they are free.

My only suggestion in my original post was to support opposition to the DP for people who still have a chance to live. I did not want to execute Tookie, but I can not forgive him for the misery him and other gang leaders and Mafia have caused. Life in prison is good enough for them.

[ET Awful]

35. So what you're saying is that, in your opinion, a persons good deeds

should be completely ignored in favor of condemnation for their bad.

How very primitive of you.

The reason he will be remembered and honored is because, unlike the others you mentioned, his efforts in the last part of his life were designed to prevent others from following in his path. There have been mafia leaders who turned states evidence to save their hides, but did nothing to reverse the damage they caused. That's not the case with Williams.

When you start denigrating his anti-gang work and saying that he should not be remembered for doing it, you send a message to those who were steered by that anti-gang message that it is an invalid message and you effectivly negate his work.

A truly open-minded and progressive person will attempt to commemorate the good in someone's life, not ignore it. Tookie's "Peace Protocol" helped bring around gang truces as far away as South Africa and even Switzerland (yes, Switzerland has a gang problem, mainly among it's immigrant population - which is what brought him to the attention of the member of Swiss Parliament who was impressed enough to recommend him for the Nobel Peace Prize).

Take a look at Malcolm X for example. As a youth, he was a criminal. He was a thief, a burglar, a drug dealer, and a drug addict. How many people remember him for that?

[ET Awful]

40. Another tidbit for thought . . .

Who is more responsible for glamorization of the gang and drug culture, people like 50 Cent and The Game who (and I really have nothing against rap) make some of the worst "music" around and all they talk about is killing everybody they see, or someone like Williams who denounce their past and work for change?

Who glamorizes it more, someone who stands inside a prison and says "I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure that others don't end up here" or putting movies like Get Rich or Die Trying in theaters and publicising them on everything from billboards to the sides of city buses?

Like I've said many times, Williams is no saint, but at least he was denouncing his past and working for change, he wasn't glorifying it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. "Should not be tolerated"?? While I agree that Tookie should not....

....be associated in any way with Rosa Parks, I do NOT support curtailing the right of Free Speech of anyone. Once you start down that slippery slope, where will the curtailing of Free Speech stop?

Additionally, while Tookie certainly screwed up his life and those of others before he arrived on Death Row, he did good work after his arrival on Death Row in terms of trying to convince kids to stay out of gangs. People do not receive nominations for the Nobel Prize without being perceived as having done something of merit.

[ET Awful]

41. Thank you for that.

On the subject of free speech, did you hear that Republicans in Congress are calling for a vote on a resolution which states that calling for troop withdrawal from Iraq is inconsistent with victory?

At least that's what they said on the radio this morning.

Also, like I said above, the only comparison to Parks has nothing to do with comparing the people, but with comparing the size of their funerals. The comment is hardly worth raising as much fuss as has been shown here.

[rpannier]

51. I don't know about that

Some idiotic Norweigen politico nominated him and bLIAR for the Nobel Peace Prize in 02. I also think he was nominated twice by a US Congressman.

[ET Awful]

53. Hmmm. Did you actually research this?

First, it was a Swiss Parliament member who nominated him because his "Peace Protocol" was used to bring a gang truce between gangs there (yup, Switzerland has gangs, mostly immigrants from Somalia, etc.). So where you got Norwegian from is beyond me. Also, the poster said "perceived as having done something of merit" which is certainly the case here. Whether a nominee actually DID something of merit or not is not what the poster said.

Second, he was nominated by two college professors (one from Brown, and one from a California school, Notre Dame I believe, no not the Fighting Irish, another Catholic school in California). That's going by memory, so I may have the schools confused.

[rpannier]

55. Yes

I actually did research it. scrub and bLIAR were nominated in 2002 by Harald T. Nesvik for their "decisive action against terrorism, something I believe in the future will be the greatest threat to peace."
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwj2/actions/bushblairnobel.html

[ET Awful]

56. Yes, but my question was more pertaining to Williams, not Blair and Shrub

Why did you attribute his nomination to a Norwegian?

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're going to question someone's veracity, shouldn't you confirm your own facts first?

[rpannier]

66. I apologise

I assumed you were talking about scrubbies nomination -- my mistake.

[ET Awful]

67. Understood

I started thinking that might be the case, but it was too late to edit the post :P

I apologize too. . . I'd put a shake-hands smiley, but I can't find one :)

[NaturalHigh]

52. Nothing to move on to.

Please, those who protested his execution, move on to the next person who might lose their life.


Many (if not most) of the people who have protested the loudest about "Tookie's" execution are really not concerned with capital punishment. They were in with the "Tookie" crowd because it was fashionable.

[MyUncle]

73. I agree with you NaturalHigh.

The upcoming media event/funeral will be NOT be about the Death Penalty.

[NaturalHigh]

75. No, but it will be an EVENT.

Lots of fashionable people have agonized over what to wear, I'm sure.

[ET Awful]

76. Since when are funerals about the death penalty?

Funerals are memorials for individuals, not for the manner in which they died. They are designed to commemorate someone's life, not their manner of death.

When my friend was killed in 1988 by a drunk driver, the funeral was a memory of her life, not an anti drunk driving rally. That's the way it should be.

Or am I missing the point of funerals in general?

Or do you think funerals should be political rallies?

Or maybe, you're just afraid that people will show that they actually respected the mans work and weren't just rallying around him because they were anti death penalty and wanted to use him as a poster boy? Maybe you don't want to acknowledge that there are thousands of people who respected and benefitted from his efforts over the past decade (and who believe in redemption).

[Nikia]

90. Funerals are usually about celebrating someone's life

No matter how good or bad it was. While some Tookie Williams supporters were against the death penalty in general, some respected him for his anti gang efforts or on a more personal level. Barbra Becnel wasn't just against the death pentalty, she personally respected him. It is her right to organize a large funeral if she wants.
We are all human, no matter how many good or bad things we have done.