Can employers fire gay people at will in most states?

[dsc]

Please answer this without googling nor telling the correct answer publicly. I am asking this to see just what people think is true in this regard.

[Lindacooks]

1. In at-will states, you can be fired for the color of your t shirt.

You can be fired for anything or nothing at all. You have no rights, period.

[BlueIris]

8. Yep. Anyone here read, "You Could Be Fired For Reading This Book"?

It's by Glenn Solomon. ISBN: 1576752550. Hook yourself up with a copy of that, everyone who foolishly voted "no."

[MercutioATC]

9. But that's not a "gay" issue...it's an employment issue.

It's not discriminatory against gays.

[Lindacooks]

11. My point is, in at-will states, you can be fired for being gay and they

can say it was for something else; they don't even need a reason! The law, in my opinion, makes it harder to prove discrimination.

[MercutioATC]

12. Well, yes, but...

...if you can also be fired for having red hair, it's a labor issue, IMO, not a sexual orientation discrimination issue.

...and I'm not sure I'm against it. I think that business owners who don't do business with the government should be allowed to hire and fire whomever they want (remember the "Hooters Guy?").

[LostinVA]

15. If you're fired for being gay, it's a dis issue. Period. Not a labor issu

T^hey can legally say that's why they're firing you, unless your company has a clause protecting you. They can -- and do -- fire you for being black, female, etc.... the only difference is, then they have to make a reason up...

And, thanks for thinking it's fine for people to legally fire gays. This kind of attitude on DU sickens me. I just love your empathy and compassion for others.

[MercutioATC]

17. If you're fired for having red hair, it's a discrimination issue, too...

The point is, it's legal to discriminate in some states REGARDLESS of what the factor is. That's no more a gay issue than it is a "red hair" issue. It's a labor issue.

As far as "thinking it's fine for people to legally fire gays", I do think it should be legal for certain employers to hire or fire ANYBODY they like. That's ALSO not a gay issue...it's a labor issue.

[Kingshakabobo]

18. So you are OK with employers firing black people??

Substitute red hair or gay for black person and let's see how your logic holds up?

[MercutioATC]

21. My logic holds up just fine. It's your emotional response that changes.

(I'll assume that , for the moment, we're talking about my position that some employers should be able to hire and fire whomever they'd like)


Assume for a moment that I own a restaurant. It's a health-themed establishment serving organic and generally healthy foods. To further promote this theme (and raise profits) I've decided that my servers will all be young, fit, attractive people. An experienced but overweight server applies for a job. Should I be legally required to hire them?

I believe that some employers should have the right to hire based on any criteria they choose. Frankly, I'm not sure exactly where to draw the line as to exactly who should or should not be able to do this.

The issue is whether ANY discrimination is permissible or not. Whether it be red hair, dark skin or sexual orientation, I think it's still a labor issue...not a "hair color" or "race" or "gay" issue.

[Kingshakabobo]

23. Nice try with the "emotional" zinger. It's a pretty tired tactic around DU

1. Why are you assuming I'm emotional? Sometimes DU amazes me how quick people will get their panties in a knot when a simple discussion will do.

2. All kinds of cases can be made about employers being able to hire people that "fit the job description". Since you are putting up a straw-man, why don't you keep it simple and make your scenario "blind airline pilots".

But that's not what we are talking about is it? We are talking about discrimination of gays in the workplace so why don't you give us all some good reasons that an employer should be able to fire gay people.

I get so tired of hearing the "red hair" or "red t-shirt" line. It's complete and utter mental masturbation. Come see me with those scenarios when it becomes a problem in our society and it starts causing REAL harm to hundreds and thousands of people in our society. Come see me when landlords, employers and the military in fact DO start discriminating against "red heads" and "red t-shirters". Come see me when they start snooping around people's lives to see if they wear "red t-shirts" on their own time in the privacy of their own home.

Look, not to sound too much like GW but, you are either think gays should be a protected category or not. It's pretty simple.

Where do you stand?

[MercutioATC]

26. Here's why it's a valid argument...

Discrimination based on hair color (or weight, or any number of variables) is no more or less objectionable than discrimination based on sexual orientation. If your state allows such discrimination, it's a labor issue in that ALL forms of discrimination are allowed, not just discrimination against gays. That may be wrong, but it's still a labor issue, not a "gay" issue.


To answer your questions:

1) My intent wasn't to suggest you were hysterical, it was to suggest that race is a hot-button issue that can emotionally cloud a situation at times. I didn't make that clear and I apologize for that.

2) I posed the situation I did for a reason. My point isn't as clear cut as a "blind pilot" scenario. A blind pilot can't physically do the job. An overweight server could. I was trying to stress the business plan of the employer, not the strict physical guidelines necessary to do the job.

Here's my take on "protected categories"...It's a presumption in this country that "all men are created equal". That SHOULD include gays and hispanics and overweight people, etc. There shouldn't be any need for a "protected category". Some people are just too dumb to understand this. For them, we have to spell it out..."All men are created equal. That means gays and blacks too.". I don't buy into the "special rights" meme because I don't believe there SHOULD be special rights. I think that all men are created EQUAL . Nobody should be specially protected because nobody should HAVE to be specially protected. In that spirit, I believe that sexual orientation should be added to the list of "protected categories"...not because they should get any kind of protection that everybody else isn't entitled to, but because this country is, to a large degree, comprised of idiots.

[Kingshakabobo]

27. I guess we are in agreement.

We shouldn't HAVE to need special categories but we DO need special categories because the world is full of idiots and bigots including bigoted employers?


What were we arguing about again? :)

[MercutioATC]

28. We were "agreeing" from different angles.

I frequently run into this problem....


:)

[LostinVA]

19. No, it is a discrimination issue, not a labor issue

And, the red hair-gay analogy doesn't work... good try, though.

I've been meaning to put you on "Ignore" for a while -- so I'm honoring that promise to myself now. Have fun discriminating against people. Hope it makes you feel important and in control. Your lack of compassion and empathy is disturbing and sad.

[MercutioATC]

22. In the event you haven't put me on "ignore" yet...

I'd be interested to know something. You say "for a while". Which of my past posts do you feel have advocated discrimination?

[sarcasmo]

29. I was denied a driving job because they thought I was gay.

I went back to ask and an employee told me what he over heard his supervisor say.

[Canuckistanian]

2. I don't even have to google it

I know, because most states (especially the red ones) DO allow discrimination by specifically NOT mentioning sexual orientation (a crucial omission, and not at all accidental).

How did I do, Alex?

[ruggerson]

3. Yes, in all but about 14 or 15 I think

[DJ MEW]

4. I would really like to know in what states that can happen in

I have never heard anything that is a definate. I would really like to know where it can and can't happen.

[Kingshakabobo]

24. Take a look.

On edit: does this map look familiar?



http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/states/antidiscrimi-map

[MrSlayer]

5. I don't know in general but in my union, no.

Everyone is equal in the union.

[bammertheblue]

6. Most jobs I've had

have had, in little fine print, on the form you sign when accepting the job:
"The employer reserves the right to terminate employment at any time without notice".
So I guess, yeah.

[MercutioATC]

7. I believe gays fall under the same laws as ALL employees.

I didn't Google it, but I'd think that an employer would find it no harder or easier to fire somebody who was gay than any other employee.

[jmm]

10. In about 3/4 states

I forget the exact numbers but I do know my state is in the minority by not allowing employers to fire gay people at will.

[Greyhound]

13. "at will" and "right to work" are both doublespeak code terms for

unless you are, or are related to, the boss, you're a serf. :woohoo: Go amerika!

[LincolnMcGrath]

32. "Right to work for less"

:hi:

[LostinVA]

14. They certainly can in NC & VA -- because it happened to me

I had worked someplace, in management, for five years, and had just had a great yearly eval and a promotion. Then, my boss suspected I was gay, went through my locker (legally), and found a note from my current girlfriend. I was fired about an hour later, with NO legal recourse. It's like that in many, many states... most, actually. Individual companies can give you the protection, which is something that saves alot of people from being axed legally.

[dsc]

16. I posted this to gage how informed people here were

as to the actual state of the law. The correct answer is that in all but 14 states employers can fire people for their sexual orientation without any recorse being available to the employee. But the number of people who realize that is very small. That is one reason why the Religious Right is so sucessful at painting ENDA like laws as special rights.

[LostinVA]

20. And, it appears that even some on DU don't give a damn

And even think it's how things should be. God... is it really almost 2006?

[dsc]

30. It is hard to believe that in this day of age

I can be fired tomorrow from my job but it is true. I am lucky in that I can move to a more accepting district if need be but still it burns me up that some people think that is OK.

[LostinVA]

34. Especially so called "liberals!

[jackpan1260]

25. Interesting. I didn't know about the 14 states.

[Giant Robot]

31. To answer the question posed

Yes in my state an employer can fire a gay person at will. I live in an at will state where a person can be fired for any reason or no reason at all. I'm not trying to debate if this is a labor issue or discrimination issue or what, just trying to answer with the op asked. For what its worth I see this as a broader labor issue, but thats just my opinion. I thought the constitution summed everything up nicely when it was written, "All men are created equal." But somewhere that seems to have gotten off track.

[BiggJawn]

33. In Indiana, you can be fired because the boss didn't get laid last night..

...and he's "Extra-Pissy" the next morning.


"Employment at Will" has been upheld to actually be "Discharge on a Whim".