Should Tookie Williams' Execution Have Been Broadcasted?

[im10ashus]

David Corn of The Nation, who also has the website www.bushlies.com, has posed an interesting question. What if they had to broadcast executions so that the public, who are the one's that pay for this through taxation, had to watch their tax dollars at work? Would it change our perception of the death penalty?

Check it out:

As Tookie Williams, the founder of the Crips, was being prepared for execution earlier today, after California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger rejected his bid for a reprieve, I recalled writing TomPaine column over four years ago that advocated broadcasting the execution of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh. Now I could be asking, why not air the Williams execution on television?

At the time of McVeigh execution, I wondered why the final disposition of the OKC bomber could not be shown to anyone interested in the matter. After all, his execution--like all others conducted by the state--was a public action conducted with public funds? Didn't citizens have the right to see their government at work. I recall that at the time relatives of the victims of the OKC bombings were permitted to watch the event on a closed-circuit broadcast. Then why not let others--whose tax dollars underwrote the killing--also witness the event? I wrote:

There certainly is the public interest. Consider the 1600 journalists who were flocking to Indiana for the event. As others have suggested, televising executions might force some death penalty supporters to confront the gray horror of Big Government executions. Perhaps. Could the widespread viewing of an execution and the attendant (and sure-to-be-nauseating) media spectacle actually cause people to conclude capital punishment is a practice worthy of a supposedly great and democratic nation?

The argument against such reality-TV fare is that it would be too gruesome, a debasement of the culture. Think of the children. No doubt, there is something unseemly and primitive about public executions. But the obvious response is that government, in general, should not be engaged in conduct that cannot bear full exposure. We can make rare exceptions for, say, true national security secrets, but not for matters of taste. Americans who support capital punishment may not want to see it on television (just as veal aficionados may not want to watch a documentary on the slaughter of calves). Let them switch the channel to a World Wrestling Federation match. But those citizens who wish to argue against the death penalty by showing the savagery and dishonor of government executions should have the opportunity to do so.

cont'd.

http://www.bushlies.com/

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Yes

Maybe if the public can witness this barbaric form of justice, it will finally be banned.

[tularetom]

2. IMHO ALL executions should be televised

and when bush's Saudi buddies take over, they will be. Plus you can expect to see a lot of one handed ex thieves walking around. And I don't even want to think about what they're gonna do to the sex offenders.

[medeak]

3. are you serious?

Tookie said he wanted no one to witness his death... pray tell would you take what little dignity away for a cause?

[im10ashus]

8. I am posing the question.

This was from David Corn's blog and I think it's a valid question. Don't tell me you had time to read his blog that quickly. Really. Personally, I wouldn't want to watch, but I am opposed to the death penalty based on the fact that it's not been effective in deterring crime.

[medeak]

14. have witnessed over 600 deaths

spent life working in ER and hospice.

It's a sacred moment...that moment of death and usually is a beautiful spiritual thing to share.

Have felt blessed to share that moment with so many....but there were a few that were horrible...they didn't accept death and fought to the end and experienced a "not pretty" experience.

It's a private moment and should be. No matter what agenda everyone has..there has to be respect and dignity.

[im10ashus]

17. You have witnessed natural deaths.

I am talking about OUR tax dollars paying to execute someone. Wouldn't it change the way people look at execution?

You seem to be missing the point. :shrug:

[medeak]

19. not always natural

but can't speak of those.

you missed my point...Tookie asked for no witnesses until the last moment. Do you REALLY think victims want to be exposed in that manner?

Just as barbaric as the act in my mind.

[im10ashus]

22. I understand what you are saying.

But I am still curious as to what the public opinion would be once they started televising the executions. It's merely a question.

[medeak]

30. Personally...

I would be jealous of the way they die with intravenous drugs as husband has Parkinsons and I watch him deteriate every day hoping he won't choke to death.

[im10ashus]

34. My heart goes out to your husband and you on that issue.

I wouldn't put your husbands needs into the same boat however. It's apples and oranges.

:hug:

[im10ashus]

32. I didn't miss your point.

You edited your response which is not fair. :-)

I am not pretending to know what the victims family would want. I've been through this with a close personal friend of my mother's who was murdered. So I do have a little experience in dealing with the issue. But you shouldn't have edited your response. It shows a lack of clarity in the first place on your part.

[medeak]

37. oh poor baby

had a second thought and added. How that offended you have no idea.

Thank you Skinner for ignore option

[im10ashus]

40. Where did I state I was offended?

Just curious. :shrug:

You are free to edit. But you could have simply replied to my question as opposed to changing your post. I'm just saying. Don't get all pissy about it.

[Protagoras]

4. I'm always wondering about this...did public hangings

shootings, beheadings etc when they were done before bring them to an end? I honestly don't know. I fear that given what our culture is all about, it would simply get adopted as another form of mass spectacle...anyone know how it was actually received when done before in our history? Cuz it was.

[Jed Dilligan]

7. For what it's worth...

My friend convinced his brother to steet clear of Iraq by showing him the Nick Berg video!

[alarimer]

59. Public hangings were a big specacle

Like it was some big party or something, only more bloodthirsty. I suppose televised executions would be the same way. I find the very idea gruesome.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. Yes--it is rank cowardice and hypocrisy to do it in secret.

We should only kill whom we the people have the stomach to watch die.

[Quixote1818]

6. Maybe, it would horrify some people who are for the DP

We all pay for people to be killed so as a society we are all killers. Perhaps that would sink in. Then again it could create more murderers if people see that that is how the state deals with problems.

[im10ashus]

10. And maybe it would deter others from committing crimes.

I think it would certainly make them think twice about the consequences.

[Quixote1818]

15. That would be the logical conclusion

however the stats on the DP show that murder is higher in states that have the DP. I suppose people who were raised with violence are not fazed by violence other than to become more violent because that's their world.

If you are raised with violence your brain is wired to be almost jaded by it. Seeing death for a person raised with violence is as natural as getting a hug for someone raised in a loving family. Thats the way evolution has built us. The brain wires it's self to survive in it's environment.

[im10ashus]

20. A good point.

I would love to see a link to those statistics. I live in New York and we have abolished the death penalty here. Do you have some information I could look over? Thanks!

[Quixote1818]

24. No, I just heard Randi Rhodes give the stats

I am sure you could google it. Just take a look at Canada and Europe, they don't have the death penalty and have very low murder rates.

[im10ashus]

29. Europe and Canada also have stricter gun laws.

I don't think you can compare the two unless you remove that equation. I'm just saying. :shrug:

[Quixote1818]

36. I am sure guns have an impact

but did you see Bowling for Columbine? Many Canadians had rifles in their homes yet the murder rate is a fraction of what it is here.

I am sure their are lots of factors that lead to violence.

1. Guns
2. How violence is romanticized by society
3. Stress
4. The vicious cycle
5. A capitalistic society that looks down on the poor

etc. etc.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. I'd amend item 5 to "RADICALLY capitalistic"

Canada, like Western European and most American countries, is capitalist, lock, stock, and barrel.

[ET Awful]

54. Look here

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

Yes the information in the chart is several years old, but the site contains more up to date information. Notice that the highest murder rate in the country is in a death penalty state. Notice also that the most execution happy state in the country (Texas) has a higher murder rate than New York.

[Patchuli]

33. I respectfully disagree

I'm not a killer because they use my hard-earned taxes to do awful things in my name. That's like saying because most revenue goes to defense that funds an illegal and immoral war, we are all warmongers. Sorry, but I am not accepting that 'mantle' as I have little say in where my money goes. If I did, we wouldn't be in Iraq! I am against the death penalty but I think televising such a thing is a horrid idea. People would probably just be more desensitived towards violence and the world would show it.

[Quixote1818]

38. I respectfully agree

I understand your point and agree 100% with your last two sentences. See my other posts.

[AlCzervik]

9. I think that over time if this were to happen people would or

a certain segment of the population would become desensitized to it. I would like to see one study that actually shows that the death penalty is a crime deterrent because imo it isn't. I lived in Texas for 3 years and it seemed like every monday night Dim-son would be on the tube say no clemency and then the plunger would get pushed and the murder rate didn't appear to go down any.

[Clara T]

11. I say Yes and sell tickets

make it a multi-media event, you know reality TV and all that social Darwinism sickness.

Why not let Arnie and Tookie have a wrestle royale even. Let the insane empire show its colors as the biggest baddest spectacle on Earth. Maybe a few preliminary hangings and beheadings as well.

We are in need of another way of living in this country. The psychosis is glaring and the pace at which it is moving accelerates with each moment.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

There would be no lack of advertisers.

The goggle eyed masses would be thrilled to see a bit of "reality" tv brought to you by Dodge Ram (complete with gutteral voice over) and Toys-R-Us.

[NaturalHigh]

12. I think executions should be public.

As I've stated in other threads, I'm very ambivalent about the death penalty. In my opinion, though, we should carry these out in the light of day for everyone to see. If we're going to have a genuine discussion on the issue, we shouldn't just rely on the sanitized version given out by the media.

[tyedyeto]

13. My first and initial reply would be to say yes...

make anyone who is pro-death penalty be forced to watch the taking of another human being's life in their name. They wanted it, they should watch it. But, does an inmate have the right to privacy when it comes to their last moment? That I'm not sure about. Since death by lethal injection is so anti-septic, I doubt it would change any person's mind about the DP itself, so it might be a moot point. Myself, I am 100% against the death penalty.

[MrSlayer]

16. I've often said they should.

It would be a much more effective deterrent if everyone could see the consequences of acting like a sociopath. Lethal injection would probably be a bit boring though. It's like watching someone go to sleep. Ever see someone get the chair? That's an effective statement.

[Todd B]

18. I'm about as anti-DP as you can get,

but it seems to me that allowing for public viewing of executions would be such a gross violation of privacy, on behalf of the prisoner/condemned.

I also think that, sadly, in this day when you have shows like Prison Break and Oz on television, the moral, reasoning, or purpose for televising the execution in the first place would be trivialized by everything else we see on television.

We get enough of a media circus leading up to the execution.. the least we, as a society, can do is let the condemned die with some dignity (as dignified as you can get with state sponsored killings).

How would it be any different then Saudi Arabia or Iran carrying out public beheadings, stonings, or hangings?

[medeak]

23. ditto! n/t

[beyurslf]

21. I dont think it would change anyone's minds to watch it on tv.

In fact, they wouldn't think it looked very "real" since he would just go to sleep. We see people "die" on tv or in the movies all the time.

[im10ashus]

25. Watching an actor die is a BIT different than seeing it for real.

I don't think they "just go to sleep" when given an injection.

[Quixote1818]

31. I agree

When they showed people jumping off the World Trade Center during 9/11 I was absolutely horrified.

Seeing that in a made up movie doesn't affect me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Oh shit, you had to remind me of THAT again?

It kept replaying over and over in my mind for months, and I don't even live in the USA. Now it's started all over again. Thanks a lot. :cry:

[beyurslf]

62. but watching an actor die on tv is not much different than watching

someone die on tv. it is all on tv and we are accustomed to seeing it. Being there in person would change that.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. None of them should be

It's not a freakin circus.

[im10ashus]

35. Thanks for your opinion.

I am not sure how I would feel about it personally, but I think it raises a critical question. Are we so desensitized because it's so secretive, like the fallen soldiers coming home in coffins, that we can just "block" it out? It should be discussed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. Oh, but it is a freaking circus

Very much so, in the Roman sense.

It is now merely deferred and deflected through various obstacles and blinds. The baying for blood by various frothy-mouthed posters on these very boards yesterday resembled nothing if not the wild crowds of the arena, virtually frenzied for the release of the lions. Or chemicals. Whatever.

How light and mobile our circuses today...

[rfkrfk]

27. memorial service for Tookie?

when, where?

[obxhead]

28. Yes, No, Maybe....

I know how I would react to it and I have a good idea how my friends and family would react to it, but what about so many others... (fill in any appropriate hate group here)

I believe open viewings could raise the debate in a new way, but would the final effect bring about any positive results.

[Turbineguy]

39. For Bu$h's private enjoyment only

N/T

[KamaAina]

41. Want to see the han-ging! Want to see the han-ging!

the cry of two disappointed ten-year-old boys whose parents sadi they weren't old enough to go to a public execution, in 1984.

No, not the year of the LA Olympics, but Orwell's 1984. Apparently that's where we're headed here in Oceania, where we've always been at war with, um, Eastasia? . :puke: :puke: :puke:

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Everyone knows why public executions were stopped

Because the people often ended up siding with the condemned and questioning the State. It is as simple as that. The other excuses are bunk and lies.

With all the fatuous blabber on these very boards about "happily being the one to throw the switch, etc." I don't believe one of these jabbering imbeciles for a minute.

[im10ashus]

44. And heaven forbid we question the State.

Too many innocent people have died via the death penalty to not demand, at the very least, a moratorium.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. I don't care if they're innocent or monsters

Quite frankly. The State shouldn't take a life, period. End of story. It's barbaric either way.

[AgadorSparticus]

47. i don't believe them either. it's easy to swagger behind a keyboard.

[lynne]

45. Most certainly SHOULD be televised.

We had this same discussion at work today. The overwhelming opinion was that executions should be televised and viewed by the public.

Executions used to be public but that ceased in the last century. Executions were made public as a deterrent, letting everyone know what a horrific fate was in store for them if they chose to commit a capital offense.

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. And it was an absolute failure as a deterrent

Public executions were ended because the public tended to feel sympathy for the condemned.

[Bill McBlueState]

46. yes

We deserve to see these sick fucks who participate in the death squad in action. You know something's up when they have to do all the killings after midnight.

[sendero]

48. Ridiculous...

... first of all, the condemned should not be subjected to the indignity of public witness.

Second of all, the only people who'd watch it would be those who were "for" it anyway.

Some ideas are simply beyond stupid, this is a prime example.

[im10ashus]

49. Thanks for your thoughts. n/t

[sendero]

50. My vitriol..

... is not aimed at you as I hope is obvious.

But I'm really getting fed to the gills with "liberals" who really are so thick and so sure they have the answers but cannot come up with anything compelling or interesting to support their point of view. No minds would be changed as a result of televising such a thing, in fact it could easily make things worse (in terms of stoking a desire for blood lust).

David Corn consisently dissapoints.

[im10ashus]

51. Not offended in the least.

I am just curious as to what DUers think. Hope I wasn't being snide. :-)

[Puglover]

56. What makes me sick is the horrible

parody that most of the state uses to kill people. The sanitized room, gurney and the injection. The ONLY thing that is assuaged here are peoples sense of guilt in killing them in the first place. I remember when watching "Dead Man Walking" watching the nurse swab Sean Penns arm with alcohol before she inserted the needle. I couldn't help thinking how bizarre that one act was.

I say if the state and populace want to kill people they should really do it up. Like the Iranians with a crane and a rope in public. Or bring back the guillotine (which probably is more humane then the needle)

[im10ashus]

58. "Dead Man Walking" is what changed my mind about the DP.

And yes, that was a bizarre scene, sterilizing his injection spot. WTF?

[Silverhair]

61. That is in case of a last second reprieve, so the needles can be removed.

Sometimes there really are last second stays.

Caryl Chessman was granted a last second reprieve by a judge. The judge's clerk telephoned the prison. There is a special phone in the execution room just for last second calls. Dialed the wrong number. Hung up and redialed. Too late. The pellets had just dropped into the bucket.

[Silverhair]

60. It would make poor TV, low ratings. No action.

Just a guy on a table, gets a couple of IVs in him, lays there awhile, pronounced dead, show is over. Nothing to watch.

The first one would be heavily watched, then after than only a few would bother.