How Protestantism Works

[Dob Bole]

I am immobile, having had surgery on my toe 6 hours ago. You didn't need to know that... however, being immobile, I've had an opportunity to browse DU threads, and as usual, there a bunch of them on religion. Since words like "fundamentalist," "evangelical," "Old-Time Religion," and "toilet paper" are currently in use on the board, I thought I'd write an oversimplified summary of North American religion. In doing so, I hope to foster "understanding" and "wisdom" and lots of other things that conservatives don't care about. Plus, it would make my history degree mean something.
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PART I" WHA???

(very) Basically, devoted Protestants in the US are coming from two different places. While they may differ demographically, and in theological nuances, there are primarily two different views on a Christian's purpose in life. There are the logical descendants of the Social Gospel Movement, and descendants of the Evangelical Movement.

1) The Social Gospel Movement came about as a result of the Industrial Revolution, and is the "What Would Jesus Do?" mentality. Social Gospel-ists? view our role in this life as a role of service...helping the poor, improving society, seeking justice for the oppressed, etc. This movement in Christianity is responsible for the Civil Rights Movement, The New Deal, perhaps the temporary suspension of the Death Penalty, and (to a certain extent) Prohibition as well, the assumption at the time being that much spousal and child abuse resulted from alcohol abuse.

2)The Evangelical Movement sees the primary role of Christians as the expansion of Christianity itself. They see Jesus' final command "Go into all the earth.." as important, but may ignore the rest of what Jesus said. This isn't intentional...they just see life on this earth as temporary, and therefore too much investment in it as inconsequential. A person may suffer poverty and injustice for a short time, but it is more important that they are free and happy for the rest of eternity...thus most evangelicals believe in a literal heaven and hell.

PART II: WHO GOES WHERE?

An example of an almost completely social gospel-inspired Protestant denomination is the Presbyterian Church, USA. An example of an almost entirely evangelical denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention. Examples of famous social gospel preachers include: Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., Reinhold Niebuhr, Walter Rauschenbausch, and Jim Wallis (that guy who wrote "God's Politics.")

The most famous example of an evangelical preacher is Rev. Billy Graham. However, I think it's important to point out two subsets of Evangelical Christians:

1) The Combo!- Many people have been able to successfully incorporate BOTH systems of thought into their lives. Jimmy Carter is an example. He convinced Deng Xiaoping to allow Bibles and Christian meetings in China, and teaches Sunday School every week- evangelical. But he also builds homes for the poor, campaigns for free elections, and fosters peace treaties...social gospel (or the Catholic equivalent, Liberation Theology. Not going there.) Other examples of The Combo include Jim Wallis, CS Lewis, the members of U2, Millard Fuller and Clarence Jordan (founders of Habitat for Humanity) and Booth (founder of Salvation Army.) The Combo is nearly always progressive, i.e. on our side.

2) The Fundies! This subcategory of evangelicals sees "moral decay" as the primary public concern. They also like capitalism a lot. The Fundies are nearly always conservative, i.e. not on our side. But sometimes they can be convinced by the Combo people. Kerry couldn't convince fundies to vote for him, but Carter did a little. Jesse Jackson can't convince Jesse Helms to help Africans, but Bono did a little. Go figure.

Hope that clarified some things for some people. Yes, it's kind of oversimplified. Here is a Wikipedia article on the Social Gospel Movement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_gospel

[EVDebs]

1. Origins of Futurism, the basis of the Left Behind novels

The Catholic Origins of Futurism, Preterism
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

which shows that the 'futurist' interpretation of the 'end times' requires a Third Temple, and is bound to upset the Islamic world. The recent writings of George Monbiot and Chris Hedges should wake people up to this fact.

www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

www.harpers.org/FeelingTheHate.html

Historicism, or the eschatological view of Reformation theologians like Luther, were shunted aside since the turn of this century and especially with the advent of the state of Israel.

Books like Forcing God's Hand by Grace Halsell and End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg should further enlighten DUers about what the heck is goin' on.

[Dob Bole]

8. I was focusing on views of Christians' purpose in life...

I think that eschatologies can be either a cause or an effect of those. For example, if you are an evangelical who thinks that life on earth is unimportant, you may be likely to accept the idea of a secret rapture taking all Christians away from earth. If you are a postmillenialist, who has an optimistic view of earth's future, you would be more likely to invest in earth's future, and adhere to a more social doctrine.

[EVDebs]

10. Bush's Left Behind faith emphasizes a Third Temple and discounts

doing anything to protect the environment as essentially a waste of time (why bother, we aren't going to be around after the rapture anyway).

With a Third Temple (which is unnecessary unless you plan on destroying the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock) you also have the 'from the River of Eqypt to the Euphrates' -- or Greater Israel-- problem to deal with

see globalsecurity.org's maps at
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/greater-israel-maps.htm

and information at
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/greater-israel.htm

This plays directly into bin Laden's hands when you view the '14 enduring bases'
www.globalsecurity.org/org/ news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm

Permanent bases in Iraq, that when superimposed onto Judicial Watch's map of Iraq oilfields meshes completely:

"If the U.S. is ultimately leaving Iraq, why is the military building 'permanent' bases?"
http://www.fcnl.org/iraq/bases.htm

Click onto map #1 at
http://www.judicialwatch.org/071703.c_.shtml

[Dob Bole]

17. Yes, but...

while those Bush beliefs (if he even knows that he believes them) may affect his decisionmaking, they do not explain what he believes to be his general purpose in life.

[DanCa]

2. Nice post and please get better.

[cally]

3. Thanks for the insight

I've never seen this categorization before. It makes sense.

[tocqueville]

4. evangelical/pentacoastal are the fastest growing

because fundies always attract

[Perky]

6. Tocq you missed it a bit

Evangelicals are not growing because of Fundamentalism. If you look at the latest waves of super churches, they are kind of everyman churches. Aimed at meeting people where they are with no overt or even covert political undertones.

Pentacostal in the correct sense of the term are really not a growing movement in the US although they are making great strides in Sout America. The growing group who believe in the Gift are the CHarismatic churches led largely by a fast growing denomination called the Vineyard. Again they are focused on being both doctrinaire...and evangelical with a belief in healing without the Ra-ra stuff you might see on TV. Vineyard has positioned itself to apolitcal. And I know lote od Dems who are in Vineyards across the nation.


Fundy churches actually are not growing. They are swallowing eachother members and the big one are getting bigger but at the expense of smaller SBC and Pentacostal Churches.

[tocqueville]

16. As a global movement they are

"Globally, evangelicalism and Pentecostalism are among the most influential and fastest growing Christian movements. Growth in Africa and Latin America is especially rapid, and because it is not dependent on European and North American evangelical sources allowing greater diversity. An example of this can be seen in the African Independent Churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicals


Statistics pentecostals

Africa: 41.1 million
Nigeria: 12.1 million
Kenya: 4.1 million
South Africa: 3.4 million
Ethiopia: 2.6 million
South America: 32.4 million
Brazil: 13.5 million
Argentina: 3.5 million
Chile: 1.8 million
North America: 21.5 million
United States: 20.2 million
Mexico: 2.7 million
Guatemala: 2.0 million
Canada: 1.3 million
Asia: 15.3 million
China: unknown; believed to be several million
Indonesia: 5.0 million
India: 3.9 million
South Korea: 1.7 million
Europe: 4.3 million
Sweden: 0.1 million
United Kingdom: 0.9 million
Oceania: 3.3 million
Papua New Guinea: 0.4 million
Australia: 0.4 million

they might be some of these guys "to the left". But the mere beliefs and its consequences make them to fundies in my eyes. In Europe if you think that abortion and gays are a sin (to take the more common example) and want to influence the state to apply laws in that matter, mostly to forbid, you are a fundie. Our average catholics would be considered as "socialists" in the States, specially because the vast majority diverts from the Pope regarding these issues. Besides 80% of the population doesn't go to Church and don't give a f...

so it's all about societies and definitions.

[Dob Bole]

13. um...

I don't know about you, but I'm not attracted to fundies at all. They probably scare more people away than they bring in.

[Protagoras]

5. Great descriptions. Please expand it!

I think understanding the deep divisions WITHIN christianity can help us a great deal, and prevent us from broadbrushing over the values and agreements we can share with many many people out there. I hope you're able to elaborate on this further here so that you get even more mileage from your edumakation :P

[Dob Bole]

12. I plan to...

When I'll have the time is another matter. I'll probably just waste some TV- watching time to do it. :P

[Perky]

7. Dob Nice start to be sure.

It always irks me when people confuse fundies and evangelicals. they really are not the sam thing...Not even close.

Another point of distinction

Fundies tend to believe that a moral code needs to be imposed upon a society to cure all its ills and they are willing to use state power to do their bidding. It gets pretty tricky in a pluralistic Democracy, but that is there intent.

It also happens to be utterly heretical both from an NT/Jesus perspective and an OT/Law perspective. Jesus has no political aspirations much to the chagrin of Judas.

The OT/Law is issue is really where they get of track.... The law was given to Israel and not the world as a whole. It was a means of establish a community which which had been in slavery for twenty generation a way of life and some order once they got into the Promised Land.

Evangelicals do not think society's redemption begins or end with a moral code. It begins and ends with personal relationship with Jesus Christ. True Evangelicals will tell you that everything else takes care of itself.

[JVS]

9. a point about #2)

the phrase "they like capitalism a lot" is only a somewhat accurate description of the situation. I would say that the modern affinity between many more tradtionalist christians and capitalism has not so much to do with a particular liking of capitalism as it has to do with a general idea of obedience to the established order (whatever that order may be).

From Romans 13
" 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor"

An offshoot of this is that there has nearly always been a good number of christians who will support whatever the dominant system is based almost purely on the fact that it is "the system" and they feel obligated to submit. It happened with feudalism, it happened with rationalist absolutism, democracty, and Capitalism. If Socialism, in a form that is not agressively atheistic, is able to reach the same level of dominance that any of the other systems have, I would wager that they would eventually be dedicated to that system.

[Dob Bole]

11. I disagree...

While many people do obey the established order, based on that passage in Romans, I don't contribute the affinity to capitalism to that trait.

I attribute it to the fact that capitalism comes built in to American fundamentalism. When the Puritans came to our shores, capitalism was a new economic system, replacing feudalism. Puritans were more radical than other Protestant groups at the time, and they rejected not only everything related to Catholicism, but the old economic order as well.

Today's fundamentalists are basically Puritans, and they have maintained their loyalty to capitalism, even when they do not benefit from it.

[Rich Hunt]

14. close

They're not big fans of capitalism, either. Their brand of capitalism looks a hell of a lot more like feudalism.

[Inland]

15. Early protestants were early capitalists

But I would put it more to the fact that outsiders of the dominant pre-capitalist social orders would be quicker to pick it up, as you said. One can also note that jews and low church protestants from scotland were quicker to pick up commerce (as opposed to landowning or government position) than french catholics, or in the muslim world, jews, armenians and greeks were quicker than muslims.

It is, indeed, a chicken and egg problem. Did they become protestants because they were outsiders, or outsiders because they wanted to be capitalists, or capitalists because they were protestants?