As someone who is descended from these "ignorant redneck fundies"...

[tjwash]

...and has voted democrat since the 60's, stringently believes in peace before war, state sponsored medical coverage for everyone who needs it, unions that protect the workers and workers rights, jobs that pay a decent living wage, the separation of church and state, the teaching of science and critical thinking in our schools, more stringent environmental laws to protect the water we drink and air we breathe, a government that represents all of the people in our country and not just the wealthy and wealthier, a womans right to choose (and all MEN out of that decision period), the utilization of alternative energy sources and the phasing out of dangerous polluting fossil fuels, is an agnostic who believes in the teachings of Christ but not organized religion, and is against the death penalty, to name a few I just need to say:

Shame on you that just painted over half the people in our country with a broad brush. How dare you all say that "ignorant redneck fundies" are the problem with our country, when we helped build it along with everyone else. Shame on you. If you want to paint something with a broad brush, paint the media that constantly barrages everyone day in and day out with white house propaganda with it. Paint the TV commercials and editorials that constantly drench everyone in fear so they will run to big brother for protection. Paint the Senate Democrats who have constantly dropped the ball and squandered away every opportunity to right our countries direction that has been handed to them on a silver platter in the last two years. Don't come in here on your high horse and say that regular people like you and I, that sometimes are having to work two full time jobs to make ends meet are to blame for what is wrong with the country.

You can point the finger at whoever you want, as to why there is such a seperation of opinion in this country, but there are three more pointing right back at you.

Shame on you, and you know who you are.

[ret5hd]

1. what would be your description of choice...

a shorthand if you will, for the dobson, falwell, robertson, anti-choice, pro-war, backwards neanderthals that seem to plague us all, including you?

edit:typo

[mattclearing]

6. Nice personal attack. n/t

[ret5hd]

8. no, seriously...you have misinterpreted...

i was asking an honest question...what would the OP's shorthand be for the group i described. No attack intended. In fact, please explain how an attack on the OP was inferred please.

[mattclearing]

11. Oh, I see.

It's not clear the way you phrased it. I thought you called the other poster a neanderthal. I see now you meant that they were plagued by neanderthals. Got it.

[BR_Parkway]

117. KKKrisitans - it seperates them from the Christians they've tried

to hijack by their bigotry and hatred for anything different. It points out the huge chasm between what they use for fundraising preach and what Jesus taught - love thy neighbor, do unto others, take care of the poor and include others like he did throughout his life.

It would be nice to see all DU use the term KKKristians when referring to the hateful Dobson, Falwell crowd - it would eliminate the confusion that happens here sometimes by someone making a reference and someone else taking it as a slam against all

[rkc3]

7. And how would you describe someone who votes against

his/her own self-interests?

That's what a lot on the right have done.

They get behind a candidate to wants to make sure queers can't get married (or some such crazy shit), but at the same time the candidate is working to get rid of a clean environment, rid us of our civil rights, our right to privacy, merge church and state, and get of the very programs their Lord and Savior would approve of.

[leeroysphitz]

104. How's this for voting against your own self interests?

I live in Detroit big labor movement town (or used to be....). I know a guy who is FANATICALLY pro-union in word and in deed. He will get into FIGHTS on union issues. He wouldn't cross a picket line to take his sick grandmother to the hospital but he has a W sticker on his car (truck) and claims to vote straight ticket republican.

How's THAT for a walking paradox...

[erinlough]

110. I've seen that here in my part of Michigan too....

talk about congnitive dissonance!!!! I just don't get it.

[wixomblues]

118. SImple Answer: UAW members make a LOT of money

Makes you think Republican after a while. Plus, they have the best healthcare program in the country, don't like affirmative action, and don't have to work that hard to make a shit ton of money. And now, thanks to these ginourmous hourly rates and health care benefits, GM is going broke. There are a host of other reasons as well, but American Auto Workers make more then any other auto workers in the country. Basic assembly jobs start out at about twenty six dollars per hour, and after you've been there a while, and if you work overtime, most of these guys can pull in well over eighty thousand a year, and not have to worry about car payments(they get heavily discounted vehicles) or paying for health care.

Unions are good, and useful. But in the case of the UAW, they've bargained themselves out of relevance. Expect mor massive cuts and lay offs.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Republicans?

Because these are political issues. We like to think we have the moral high ground, but then so do "they." See, that is what politics is. Different visions of what constitutes morality, and how to go about it.

To me, the word "redneck" is as much a racial slur as "nigger."

[Tactical Progressive]

14. 'Redneck' isn't a racial slur

it's a class slur more than anything else. I'll grant you that it does have a racial component in that it's primarily directed at whites, but that's because minorities are already slurred at the deeper, racial level. Plus, it isn't totally class-based at the top-end either where it's about attitudes too - kind of a class mindset. You could be pretty well off and be a redneck too.

In short it's not as derogatory as a racial slur, and as a class slur even it goes beyond just pure economics into, I don't know how you'd put it, perhaps sophistication as well.

You can't change your race, and that means the mindless hatred of people who hate your race. You can stop being a redneck simply by changing your beliefs, if not your economic standing.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. I agree that it is a class slur

because it refers to people who work out of doors.

But it is also racial because you have to have light skin in order for it to get red in the sun.

Maybe you have to be called a redneck for it to seem racial.

Can you stop being a redneck by changing your beliefs? I don't really think so. If you have a southern accent, if you work hard outside or in the trades for a living, you are considered a redneck regardless of your beliefs.

It is as racial as "yellow man" or "red man." I will put "nigger" in a higher category because of the slave history of the word. That's hard to top.

[Ron Green]

24. I think one CAN stop being a redneck

by changing one's beliefs. One can stop glorifying a culture of proud ignorance in which learning and curiosity about the world is suspect, in which blind acceptance of corporate rule assures a strong and continuing consumerism. I come from very deep redneck roots, and I know it's simply about open-mindedness, which is a decision.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

26. Is open-mindedness really a decision?

I don't know.

I am inclined to think it is a function of intellect, mood, and economic security.

[Ron Green]

33. "Walk a mile in my shoes"

"There are two sides to every story"
"The more I know, the more I know I don't know"
"A mind is like a parachute"
"We're born with two ears and one mouth"

There are many, many phrases in constant use that remind us to be open-minded. Anyone who continues to resist these admonitions is willfully ignorant, and that seems to be at the center of the "redneck" complaint.

[misanthrope]

53. Coming from a like background myself...

...I would completely concur.

[Tactical Progressive]

34. No, you can be a redneck without working outdoors

In fact I'll bet that most 'rednecks' don't work outdoors. It hasn't meant that in a century.

It's a mix of class, self-righteous regressive attitudes, often including latent racism, and lifestyle. It's kind of a catch-all and not nearly as well-defined as racism against minorities.

[QC]

18. Class isn't something you can put on or take off like a pair of shoes.

People often seem to think that if all those poor folks in the trailer parks would just drop by J.C. Penney and pick up suits, they could move to the Hamptons and join the Maidstone Club. It's not quite that simple.

If you grew up in a mining community in Appalachia, chances are that you went to shitty schools. That disadvantage remains with most people for life. It's also very likely that you didn't have much in the way of professional, white-collar role models. You did not grow up thinking that an education and good job are your birthrights, as middle-class children tend to do. Your horizons are more limited than those of the kids growing up in nice neighborhoods just a few miles away.

And if you do try to move beyond your raisings, you will find that to those above you on the socioeconomic scale, your accent and mannerisms and so many other things mark you as "not one of us."

Class is much more real than its unconscious beneficiaries are generally willing to admit.

[eeyore]

27. I call as your witness The Beverly Hillbillies

Yeah, I know, it's just a show, but it perfectly illustrates what you just described.

[Clark2008]

35. But the hillbillies in that show were more keen, more wise

and certainly more giving and compassionate than the "city slickers."

No - they hadn't a lick of common "city" sense, but they did just fine.

[LostinVA]

60. But they weren't rednecks

They were hillbillies, or even just country folk. There is a HUGE difference between rednecks and just plain country people. I can't put it into words, but if you grew up around it - like I did - you can tell the difference.

[Tactical Progressive]

39. Oh, absolutely

I broke the term down above as being a varying combination of class, regressive attitudes and lifestyle.

Class - being poor is only partly by choice; I tend to think much more by circumstance - that is in more cases, and to more of an extent within each individual circumstance, both. I think the huge class divide is society-driven. No points off for being poor from me, in fact, points given as I think the class divide in this country is at this point victimization.

Lifestyle - I neither care if you wear T-shirts, drink beer, like to shoot your rifle or watch football and Nascar all weekend long - or wear polo shirts, smoke pot, go golfing and watch tennis and open-wheel racing on the weekends. The first group is lifestyle-redneck and so what.

Regressive attitudes - mostly by choice, though environment plays a big part. Still, that's no excuse in my mind.

I think 'redneck' is kind of 'any two of the above' and it only has a bad connotation with me if the regressive attitudes are one of the two. I'm certain I think more highly of class & lifestyle 'rednecks' (without the regressive attitudes) than rednecks think of class & lifestyle 'elites'.

It's only when the regressive attitudes are part of the mix that 'redneck' becomes a rightful slur.

[seabeyond]

28. actually i have seen a handful of pickups with redneck in bold

letters printed on their truck. i dont know how much a slur it is if they call themselves that. also look at show redneck tour. they willingly see themselves as rednecks. maybe it isnt as offensive as we may feel. i called myself a liberal and hte person quickly says, you said it not me. thought i was calling myself a name. same with fundie/fundementalist, they dont see it as a slur

[distantearlywarning]

30. They call us "liberal elitists".

It took me six months of hearing that on the TV before I realized it was supposed to be a derogatory term. :-)

I still don't mind being called that. If I were a redneck and proud of it, I probably wouldn't mind being called that either, even if the elitists thought it was an insult.

Personally, I think Repuke or some of the other things people call Republicans here are much, much more insulting.

[The Flaming Red Head]

98. They call them redneck aristocrats

marketing term for people who live in the country are termed as shotguns and pick-up trucks.

I'm bohemian mix stuck with the shot gun and pick up truck set.

Most of the people who vote republican and attend fundie churches are usually pools and patios (middle class country club set).

Actually, I tried to find a pick up truck a few years ago and couldn't afford one, so I ended up in a convertible mustang and the rednecks around here think I drive a fancy sports car.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

43. Don't black folks sometimes call themselves

the "n" word?

[Tactical Progressive]

45. Yes, and they aren't being racist when they do it

Just like when whites call a subsection of whites 'redneck'. It's not racism.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

46. That's the way I see it, too.

But nobody better call me a redneck, even though I live in the deep south, and spend my weekends working in the garden or on a tractor and have a VERY RED NECK!!!

[Tactical Progressive]

48. Well, since you're a liberal 'elite'

we call that a tan.

[seabeyond]

51. but then seeing how we ar epc dems, you should have on sunscreen

and no tan or redneck, bah hahaha. hey, was a competitive swimmer in cal and az, always tan year around

[seabeyond]

50. lol lol grannie, i will remember that n/t

[dogfacedboy]

120. I work with a couple of guys who are originally from TN.

They refer to themselves as hillbillies in a very matter of fact way. I don't know if it's just here in Chicago, but I grew up around a lot of Italians and Irish who referred to themselves, and their friends/family, as "dagos" and "micks". It didn't seem to be derogatory. I guess it's just a cultural thing.

[seabeyond]

49. then n word is its own special..... with its whole history.

someone used that on me when i said fundie is not a bash. cut short for fundamentalist. they call themselves that. came back with the n word. nigger,.... is seperate from all things, because of the history and what was done to the african americans and the word is part of that history. not even kinda the same with redneck and fundie. these two groups arent even close to experiencing what blacks have. so no...... not the same

and no, i hear people in this area talk about themselves as rednecks. they are not offended. call soemone a redneck that doesnt see themselves as such, then you are in trouble. call a fundie that, and they arent, then they are going to say wrong. call a redneck a redneck, no i dont think they are going to be offended

[LostinVA]

59. I think it's becoming more of a culture/political term

My redneck relatives do not work out of doors -- they are have fat state union jobs... they proudly crow that they are redneck, and followers of good American values! I swear they say this. Usually right before they talk about how the "Nigger" down the road was seen with a white girl in his car.

My partner's family from NC is exactly the same, except for their accent. One even has a bumper sticker that says "A Proud Redneck for Bush." *gag*

[The_Mule]

124. Amen, TG.

A racial slur is a racial slur. "White trash" and "redneck" are racial slurs.

I grew up with a lot of who some would call "rednecks". We didn't like being called that. It may not have the same horrendous history as "nigger", but it's still a slur against a group of people based upon ethnicity or geography.

Divide and conquer is a wrong-headed political tactic. It does no good to try to shove people into neatly-labeled categories. It's much better to listen to people than to label them.

[Festivito]

88. Wilderness fundies? (I tried.)

Difficult to find a name that invites them back.

fooled fundies
foolable fundementalists
FFF Fooled Fundie Followers

NOPE. ..uninviting

Misguided Fundies
RW lie-believing fundies

NOPE. Refers to beliefs not RW lies.

CONned fundies

NOPE. My own notation. Too obscure.

Lied-to fundies

NOPE. Still refers to beliefs.

Lost fundies
Lost-for-now fundies
To-be-found fundies

NOPE. lost refers to those without faith, so it won't be an attack on beliefs, but it will be confused with beliefs.

Wilderness bound fundies
Wilderness fundies
Wilderness for a while fundies

.. wilderness refers to jews spending 30 years in a wilderness before entering the promised land. Lacks connotation of errant beliefs, rather atonement for erred beliefs.

NOPE? Too obscure for outsiders to use.

..got work to do.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

91. The unenlightened?

The misguided?

The living dead? wait...no.... not good.

[seabeyond]

2. what a totally excellent rant. i so appreciate and value what you

are saying. i wish people were more open to what you are saying. i am so tired of everyone battling with everyone, when in seesence it is those with power that crate atmosphere for us to battle so they can have more power

thank you for this post

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. Racism comes in all colors

and intolerance is ugly no matter who is the target.

Some of the finest people I know are ignorant redneck fundies.

Seriously. Their necks are red from working out of doors, and they are simple people who want to believe. They live in mobile homes from the coast of Apalachicola up to the Georgia line. They don't have time to read the papers much, because they put in 18 hour days installing air conditioning, fixing engines, working at the day care center. They never did get to the community college because Daddy passed early and they left high school at 16. Their church is their comfort. Politics is stuff that Chris Matthews feller talks about. They see him as they surf past over to King of the Hill on Fox.

We in our ivory towers of progressive moral superiority can sneer and make fun of them and say that their faith is their opium, but I say it is their comfort. And when you go out in the cold weather you wear a coat because it is cold. And their have their faith to keep them warm in a cold scary world, and I for one am not going to throw stones in their general direction.

Because my house has glass windows. If I am going to work hard to love and accept my gay neighbors even if their lifestyle is very different from mine, and my black neighbors, even if their culture is not the same as mine, then I have to love and accept my ignorant redneck fundie neighbors.

[High Plains]

15. My black and gay neighbors aren't trying to impose their

reactionary morality on me.

They aren't trying to shove their religion down my throat.

They aren't howling for blood in the name of God.

They aren't beating their chests and cheering on foreign wars (well, okay, maybe some of them are).

They aren't voting for George Bush.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. I honestly sympathize with the emotion that accompanies your

post.

I understand the frustration and the anger. But really what this thread is examining is stereotyping. There are some people who do all the things you listed. There are also black people and gay people who aren't nice folks.

What I am trying to say is that if we go around saying "ignorant redneck fundies" and categorize and stereotype...HOW ARE WE DIFFERENT THAN THE KLAN? You know, the Klan that says "every nigger is a no-good welfare scrounge" or whatever.

You might think it doesn't matter, but it does. We are in a battle for this country. We can draw a line in the sand and say "if you aren't with us you're against us" (sound like someone you know?) and polarize us farther. Or you can refuse to name call. And believe me, "ignorant redneck fundies" is namecalling. No matter how you look at it, it is namecalling.

And it is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. It is self-indulgent. It is one of the reasons we LOST in the last election and if we lose again it will because those ignorant fundie rednecks are going to refuse to throw their political hats into the same ring with the people who disdain them.

Reach out, understand, communicate and win. Polarize, divide and lose. It is our choice.

[High Plains]

22. I don't believe every Southern Baptist (or whatever) is a threat to

my freedom and security. Just large numbers of them with political power.

I don't go out of my way to insult or denigrate "rednecks." But I don't know where the common ground is, either.

Actually, I'm pretty alienated. I vote and pay taxes in the US, but for the last few years, I've been spending as little time there as possible. And I literally breathe a sigh of relief every time I cross the border on the way out. I'm finding the Canadian Rockies to be very civilized, and nary a yahoo in sight. And I feel more secure in Mexico than I do in the US. The cultural vibe is not so creepy.

It is really refreshing to get out of the US. There is a whole other world out there where George Bush is considered a madman, not a leader; where the death penalty is considered barbarism, not justice (Mexico just formally ended its death penalty; they haven't executed anyone since the 1960s).

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. I'm sorry you feel alienated in your own country.

I am also envious you have the means to pick up stakes and change your environment so freely! Perhaps when I retire...

I am too aware of the camps that claimed my children's great grandparents and the famine that brought my own ancestors here to let George Bush ruin it for me.

I guess I also go by the motto "wherever you find yourself, there you are."

Because I know that I make friends with all sorts of folks, here, there, wherever. But the things that bother me..about myself...well, changing venue won't help. I have to work on that wherever I am.

Good luck and safe traveling!

[High Plains]

32. Thanks for the kind thoughts.

And God bless the internet! I write about drug policy for a living. My office is in Washington, DC. I lived for a dozen years until I figure out I didn't have to to be able to do my job. I've got wireless, I've got a laptop phone, I'm in business from anywhere!

I haven't given up on my homeland; I just don't want to have to be there much these days.

[Clark2008]

37. Brava from Tennessee!!

:applause:

:woohoo:

You GO Grannie!!

[redqueen]

76. Do you really believe if we're nice to them they'll start thinking?

Or do you believe that if we're nice to them they'll just vote for us because we're nicer than repugs?

IMO the GOP is winning the game by being lying, cheating, name-calling, ignorant fuckers. I don't see how "rising above" has helped anyone in the nasty dirty game of politics.

And it's all meaningless, anyway, unless we can get secure election processes.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

90. I think the people you are talking about

and the folks I have in mind are two different sorts. I'm thinking in terms of the huge pool of now-undecideds who are wavering, whose only foray into politics is every November.

I just think we are off base when we think oue enemies are the everyday folks out there. The enemies are the manipulators. We are in a battle for the hearts and souls of middle America and if we call them names we just ain't gonna get them.

[redqueen]

126. Well when you say "ignorant fundie rednecks" that's who I think of.

I don't think there's anything we can do to get them. Most of these people vote based on bullshit. I've heard anything from "I don't like Teresa" to "Abortion! Abortion! ABORTION!"

Being nice won't change anything.

[Lorien]

83. They aren't a race or a class; they are a culture and a mindset

the person who originally ranted about ignorant redneck fundies was speaking specifically about REPUBLICANS who are PROUDLY ignorant and narrow minded and believe themselves to be morally superior to the rest of us. These ignorant redneck fundies are, in fact, elitist snobs. Nobody said "I'm sick of poorly educated blue collar workers of faith", they said that they were sick of people who thought of greed, hatred, and lack of an education as positive traits, and who sneered at anyone who isn't a member of the same cult. They are not a oppressed minority that needs to be defended.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

95. You wrote

"the person who originally ranted......speaking specifically about republicans...."

I lost you. I thought the OP was about the "ignorant redneck fundies" who helped build the country, etc. Did I miss something?

[Lorien]

107. Another thread that apparently inspired this one

titled "I'm sick of ignorant rednecks". What that person described were proudly ignorant republicans, not undereducated blue collar workers.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

109. Oh...thanks

so pre-OP. No wonder I was lost.

appreciate it.

[distantearlywarning]

4. If you were talking about me, just say so.

No need to hide behind "you know who you are". I stand behind what I say here on DU.

I would also like to point out that if the following paragraph is true...

"and has voted democrat since the 60's, stringently believes in peace before war, state sponsored medical coverage for everyone who needs it, unions that protect the workers and workers rights, jobs that pay a decent living wage, the separation of church and state, the teaching of science and critical thinking in our schools, more stringent environmental laws to protect the water we drink and air we breath, etc....*snipped for brevity*"

...then I was not referring to you or anyone like you in my statements made in other threads. By definition, at least my definition, you are not an ignorant redneck, despite what you think your roots might have been, or your personal definition of social class.

To me, money has nothing to do with it. Britney Spears is an ignorant redneck in my book, and Paris Hilton is low-class to me, and both of them have so much money they can probably roll up their tobacco in hundred dollar bills. In my world, George Bush is an ignorant redneck too, and I have been surprised to hear today how some people think he's high class. So he went to Yale - so what? He still talks like a moron and thinks global warming is a myth and doesn't know that Wales is part of the British Isles. Not much difference there between him and Joe NASCAR in my mind, and that's probably why Joe NASCAR voted for the idiot.

It's not about poverty. It's about willful ignorance and bad character. Since you don't seem to have that, then you can probably assume I wasn't talking aobut you, regardless of where your family came from.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. I'll gladly point the middle finger at myself, however,

I do not think it is wrong to point squarely at where an obvious problem exists. If I am part of the problem by using a too broad of a brush, oh well.

The erasure of the separation Church and State did not happen magically. It took a concerted, evil effort by fundies and Bushitas to make it happen. Just look at the state of Kansas. The second syllable should have two s's. The policies and decisions in the White House and elsewhere made that idiotic kind of decisionmaking possible.

The destruction of our constitutional rights, through secret laws, the Patriot Act, Renditions on US soil, the holding of US citizens without charges, the refusal to give US citizens and legal aliens the right to counsel, that did not happen in a vacuum. If it takes a broad brush to cover all of those people involved in making that happen, so be it. If some of the problem stems from ignorant redneck fundies, then I see nothing wrong in stating so.

The president STILL has 39-40% support (amazing, even now) mainly centered on fundies, rednecks and ultra conservatives. Is it wrong to blame them for some of our woes? Of course not.

Now, do I want to shut them up? of course not. separation of opinions is part of what makes our country stronger. Unfortunately, there has been little dissent until recently. Our media, even many citizens, were bludgeoned into believing that any dissent was treasonous and unpatriotic. bullshit. Only now are people waking up. It is a truth, maybe not the whole truth, but a truth nevertheless that Fundies are a source of the problem. Most fundies happen to infect land south of the Mason Dixon line.

Just as when the Democrats held on to power for too long, and became entrenched, unresponsive and corrupted, the GOP is now suffering the same fate. Only on a far grander scale. Any of those who continue to support the destruction of our country deserve all the scorn I can throw at them. A divide of opinion? Absolutely. and I am proud of it.

[tularetom]

9. So am I but

You don't get much more ignorant and rednecky than my father's family. But he evolved with the help of the government and the US military and I like to think that his three kids have evolved more. To me that would be the best way to honor his memory. Having said that I have cousins living in squalor with multiple marriages, welfare payments, drug records and the like - voting for bush because he got 'em scared of ragheads. I don't have much patience with people like this. They have the same grandparents I have but we aren't in the same world. I don't fault them for being poor - I do fault them and my uncles for being ignorant and refusing to do anything to help themselves.

[Rowdyboy]

12. Its a way to feel superior to others-to set oneself above the "herd"

The facts that:

1)many rednecks are good Democrats
2)many rednecks are not ignorant
3)many rednecks are not fundamentalists

doesn't matter when you paint with a broadbrush. Why bother with facts, when you have a good rant going?

Some of the ugliest, most elitist stereotyping I've ever seen has been on this "progressive" board. You'd think they were prep school kids sneering with distain on the "less-fortunate" kids.

[redqueen]

78. Don't all three terms go together, in order to narrow the target group?

I don't think anyone on this board would imply that any of the itemized statements in your list were not true.

[Cleita]

13. Perhaps that brush should have painted those who

vote against their best interests as ignorant. Ignorance covers all demographics. Part of the reason we are ignorant is that we don't have any laws to stop the propaganda machine presently in operation today.

Busy people don't always have the time or the will to ferret out information like many of us at DU do. So they listen to the radio or watch TV as they go about their chores and business. On Sunday they go to Church and hear more propaganda.

If those outlets keep telling you that Jesus says Bill Clinton is a sinner; if they tell you that an abortion is murdering a baby; that George W. Bush is our savior and that 9-11 and Iraq are the same, you are bound to vote and think in an ignorant way.

I think it's time to go after the media, bring back the Fairness Act and enact any other laws that will shut up the likes of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, Falwell, and Robertson forever, and bring back journalists who know that it is their duty to get at the unbiased truth and facts and report them as such. It is the duty of the press in a so-called free country to educate not obfuscate.

[undergroundpanther]

16. Hey

Ignorant redneck fundies...

I am descended from them I am melungeon.Mixed race Appalachian people.
Folk magic,liberal fundies.

If you educated over specialized,hypocrites would research a little into what you react against more,you might see how SOME from the south really fought for progressive ideals and how they battled big corporations and worked to save native Americans from persecution.

Sure there are Whites from the north and south playing on southern sentiments and issues and telling lies.Carpetbaggers playing on desperation. You have no idea how poor people are down south and how little opportunities exist.And you have no idea the decent kind people that there are down south too.

Liberals for all their "Tolerance" can sometimes be a blind self serving bigoted bunch.And SOME Liberals sometimes tolerate the wrong things in the name of tolerance that breeds more tyranny and makes for corruption.To sneer at renecks is CLASSIST bigotry.

I agree with you all Falwell Etc. are monsters hailing from the south that are destroying this country . But remember Bush's 'roots' He is a Northerner playing Southerner.Doesn't that tell you something is amiss here. Evil people can be from anywhere,and manuipulate anyone they can get away with conning including educated liberal progressive Dem's and poor people in the south too anbd play them off against one another with two different sets of rhetoric that are similar but tailopred for two audiences ,look at the DLC(progressive agenda) and PNAC.Side by side.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. Woooo hooooo! Well Said! KUDOS

[Tactical Progressive]

79. It tells us he knows where

his biggest audience lives.

[LostinVA]

121. Why are you making this a Southern thing?

And Melungeons aren't ignorant rednecks -- I'm sure some of them are. I think some people on here are confusing "redneck" with "country folk" "blue collar worker" or "Southerner." Absolutely not the same thing at all. And, rednecks are not tied to some region. I have never gotten that this is what people mean when they say, "redneck." Hell, my family is full of the intolerant asses, and they live in NJ.

[Abelman]

21. We're only talking about the ignorant ones.

The regular ones are okay by me.

:hide:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. And I have trouble with that word "ignorant"

as well. When you look at it dispassionately, it just means a person who doesn't know something. But in it's totality it is a negative thing. I don't mind saying I don't know. But I wouldn't want to call myself ignorant.

As a teacher, I see a lot of "ignorance" in both kids and parents. With kids you hope life's experiences will help them broaden, question and learn. With parents you know it isn't that likely to change. But you look at these folks and you have to avoid blaming them for their ignorance. Because as has been stated on this thread, we are all a product of our environments. And sure, some of us get out of them. And at what expense? It isn't easy to repudiate the culture that raised you and I think it creates a sort of dissonance for the rest of your life. The person I admire the most is the one who can move beyond their culture's dysfunctions and still celebrate the unique things. You can sit on the front porch and play the banjo with a man from the old hometown and enjoy it, not focus so much on who he voted for.

Because one thing we have to remember: "they" think "they" are right. They are every bit are sure that we're stupid moonbats as we are that they are ignorant fundie rednecks. The trick is not to play that game.

And here on DU sometimes we are in the World Series of name calling and intolerance.

[distantearlywarning]

29. Uh huh.

And when that nice old man from your hometown tells you he wants to see your gay neighbors in concentration camps because God hates fags, where is your "tolerance" taking you then? To the place you really want this country to be? And is it ok for him to believe that or to act on it, just because the culture he was raised in supports those kinds of viewpoints? I say no.

Your sentiments seem nice. But they don't reflect the reality we live in today. There are some very fundamental differences in how urban Democrats and rural Republicans see the world, and those differences have serious consequences for this country. It's not adequate to equate their belief in the rightness of their beliefs with the actual rightness of ours. And I'm not talking about banjo playing vs. non-banjo-playing. I'm talking about women's rights, gay rights, the separation of church and state, whether it's right to torture "ragheads" (their words, not mine), whether the US will continue to be a world leader in science or whether we become a theocracy, and the list goes on. That nice old man on his front porch, if he votes Republican because of these issues, isn't nice. And I'm not going to pretend he is just to maintain an illusion of some nice happy-crappy universe where everybody "dialogues" about their differences and comes to a peaceful compromise and runs off into the red and blue sunset holding hands.

Tolerance is a nice idea. But you have to draw the line somewhere. I think the Democratic party in general is very, very bad at standing up and saying, "This is an unacceptable thing to believe, and an unacceptable way to raise your children, and an unacceptable way to live", and as a result, we're letting the ignorant dictate the direction our country is taking.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

40. You just proved my point about stereotyping

the person you are after is a REPUBLICAN. Not necessarily a redneck ignorant fundie.

The guy on the front porch might be all three but he could just as easily have a gay son he adores. Broad brush. Not good.

You say "there are some very fundamental differences in how urban Democrats and rural Republicans see the world" and I agree.

And at the moment I despair of there being any middle ground for compromise because I see that racism, classism, intolerance and the sure belief in 100% moral authority isn't limited to one side. And for the first time in a long time.. since Katrina, really... I think we just might not pull out of it. I was sure Bush was going down and that we could reach out to the Republicans with a sense that we're in this together. But what I read on the right and hear from right wing colleagues is the sense they have (because many of them are as busy reading on here as some of us are at Malkin and Powerline!) that they are marginalized, despised, made fun of. White trash. Ignorant. At that makes them fight harder than ever.

[Tactical Progressive]

62. Well, we've tried reason

for an entire twentieth century. We reason, they assault. Nevermind that this country rose to greatness of secular, progressive principles. The proof is not in the pudding for people who don't care about proof.

You want to reason, we'll reason. They don't want reason. Now, thanks to their rancid, unethical assault on Clinton and their immoral rise to and exercise of power under this latest generation of reactionaries, progressives are finally waking up to the fact that there is no compromise with people who don't compromise. They bring a knife, we bring reason. They bring a gun, we bring reason. Doesn't work. At least we're carrying knives to the gunfight now. I don't want to go back. In fact I want us to get alot harder. Guns to gunfights. They don't like that because they feel marginalized and victimized whenever they don't get their way 100%. Well, they're just going to have to feel marginalized and victimized. They won't let it be any other way.

Reaching out to them gets you nothing but attacked and hated. It doesn't work. Historical fact. They will despise you no matter what you do. Time to despise them back and go from there. They have nothing worth keeping for this country and it's long past time to fight back hard. Honesty and decency simply mean nothing to them, so comforting and coaxing doesn't work. They fight either way and the ram their regressiveness down our throats the first chance they get whether we fight them or not. So it's time to fight, and that just isnt' going to be pretty.

[xchrom]

31. sorry tallahassee and some you others -- you have a poor

understanding of hate and how it works in families.

my dear departed partner was HATED by his father -- a holocaust survivor, tattoo and all.

my family in iowa and illinois hates gay folk -- they want nothing to do with them -- and they are born again to boot.
they feel very much the same about those they perceive as liberal -- though perhaps not moved to violence.

i've worked with gay youth who will forever be estranged from their families because of their sexuality.


it is a very tough neighborhood out there -- and since reagan it's gotten tougher.

this ''culture war'' wasn't started by liberals and i often despair that liberals have what it takes to stand up to it.

these posts are not encouraging -- though i understand you think you are battling bias.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

38. Well, you are right about that.

I don't understand hate. I have never really encountered it in my lifetime. I have rarely felt it. I guess I am very blessed.

I don't want you to get the idea I think all is hunky-dory or that there are not people on the other side who deserve to GO DOWN. But I just don't think that "redneck ignorant fundies" is the subset, if you know what I mean?

I think there are evil people..there are greedy people..there are racists... there are selfish people. But they are ...

oh, heck. I'm not sure how to finish that sentence. I think what we have here, particularly as illustrated on DU, is an out and out class war. We don't say "nigger" because color is not an issue with us. Most of us have friends, colleagues, bosses (or in my case) family of color. But class is a biggie with us. Class and all it involves: education, housing, language..even spelling (morans?). And I can be as guilty of it as anyone. I have my snobby moments myself! Because, after all, I am right. Only not everybody knows that. Yet.


Okay, I'm out of it. My head is going to explode.

[xchrom]

71. tallahasee, i understand what you're saying -- all i have for you

is a list.
newt gingrich -- not undereducated
trent lott -- not undereducated
scalia -- not undereducated
lynne cheney -- not undereducated
ann coulter -- not undereducated


and it goes on and on.

you may not want to call them rednecks -- but recognise them as enemy -- because that's what your street smarts SHOULD be telling you.
the hairs on the back of your head should go up around these folk -- and their less well educated counter parts because they would hurt you if they thought they could get away with it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

89. I'm back. Now you're talking

THOSE folks are NOT "ignorant fundie rednecks." They are a whole other set of folks and I definitely recognize them as the enemy. But their vote is unquestioned. We know what direction they are going in. But there's a whole lot of the everyday sorts who are standing at a crossroads now. I just don't get all the talk about guns and knives (earlier post) because I try and win them over with the dulcet tones from my SWEET LITTLE MOUTH.

LOL


tg

[seabeyond]

44. hate everywhere. do we feed it

allowing it to grow until we all hate. or do we decide not to hate and let that grow., i think that is where we are in society. the majority use to not hate. now it seems to premeate from all sides

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. Do you think it is the fact that we have forums like this

that fuel the fire? I mean maybe they would have fought the civil war in the 1810's if they had blogs!

[seabeyond]

52. i think a lot of the polarization comes from the internet

and boards like this. yes i do. and the rush and fox. i have thought about that often of late. it isnt who we use to be. you living in the south, i am sure their are neigbors and family that are redneck, wink.... ok conservative, or religious and you are able to see the beauty and love and kindness. we are getting further from the ablity to do that with fellow man. see it on this board too. if one doesnt agree or want something in their life, then they become the enemy, not just of differing opinion and lifestyle and choices.

[xchrom]

67. i'm not suggesting that we hate

i am suggesting that we stop being naive -- and get a good deal tougher -- a good deal tougher -- than we are today.

the world would see liberals differently if they were a good deal more muscular, unapologetic, in your face, authentic about what they believe.

don't think that there aren't a lot of people on the other side who would do physical harm to you because of your beliefs.

[seabeyond]

77. well, i am a lot of things, naive isnt one of them. i hear what you say

but i have taken on a whole fundie school, the only kerry supporter, lectured many on politics and religion before elections and i dont go to church. not only to survive, but they worked very hard for me to stay in the school. always always, in telling them how i wouldnt adopt their beliefs and how it was walking away from jesus not to..... i did it in love and respect. firm yes. sometimes even in yell, but that was just the pain in my heart, but always in love.

in your face, unapologetic, muscular and aggressive,......and in love. it works. all these people of opposing views wants to be in my space. not i in theirs.

i live in very red. i use to be wary with one kerry sticker. now i have 8. and a silver peace necklace hanging from mirror. i am not afraid.

in pacifist or in love, nto always in quiet and sweet you know, lol lol. i have learned as a mom

[xchrom]

82. all i can say is good luck.

i'm from the midwest originally - and things could be a nightmare for those who weren't in lockstep -- incuding trips to the hospital -- which isn't to say it happens to everyone.

but i think you'd be surprised to how many it does.


i won't get into the hell gay youth can suffer from familiy. -- that's for another day.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

94. You know

I am beginning to be convinced I am just totally out of it. I simply have never faced these things... lockstep...trips to the hospital. Maybe somebody should PM me and set me straight.

I think I am just a fat and happy old lady who really hasn't seen much ugliness in life.

[The_Mule]

128. Hang in there, TG!

Some people see ugliness all around them and some people almost never see ugliness. Some people expect to see ugliness and some people expect not to see ugliness. Some people show ugliness almost all the time and some people almost never show ugliness.

It seems that you are doing fine as is. I don't think you need to have someone explain ugliness to you. I don't think you would "get it", if you know what I mean.

Your posts are a joy to read.

[redqueen]

80. "get a good deal tougher -- a good deal tougher -- than we are today"

Amen!

[distantearlywarning]

100. Totally off topic, but...

Red Queen, I just want to tell you that you impressed the heck out of me a long time ago on that other flamebait thread about gifted kids (a topic which generates flames for similar reasons as this one, I suspect), and I thought then that you and I were probably pretty similar in our attitudes towards life. And this thread confirms it. I just want to say that I think you rock and I enjoy reading what you have to say. :toast:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled squabbling...

[redqueen]

127. Wow... thanks!

:hi: :hug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

93. Let's see

muscular, unapologetic, in your face liberals?

I think you just defined conservatives!

I think the reason we are liberals is because we aren't those things! We surely aren't very muscular as a group, I'd say. More mental than physical. We know when to apologize because we're honest about our feelings, and we don't get in your face very much because after all we're all about nuance! LOL


Maybe we're doomed.

[distantearlywarning]

101. That's not the kind of liberal I am.

And it's not the kind of liberal the other liberals I know personally are either.

And furthermore, it's not the kind of liberal I want to be.

I like the poster upthread who talked about toughness. That's what I want to see out of the Democrats. Toughness about gay rights. Toughness about the environment. Toughness about all the issues that matter.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

102. You remind me of my concept of Jesus

Okay, that sounds odd. Here's what I mean. I lot of people who are Christians see Jesus as a rather lambish, narrow chested weenie. To me, he is strong and masculine. Gentle, yes. But full of purpose.

That would be a good liberal to be. Strong, gentle, and full of purpose.

[Squatch]

36. How can you "descend" from redneck fundies?

They're already at the bottom of the barrel.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. Well, my great grandfather

helped found Bay County, Fl. He was a piece of work. The only one in the county who could read, he wrote everyone's letters. He owned 8 slaves. He was seven feet tall. (probably genetic issue) and he fathered three sons by three sisters, while married to only one of them. I am the product of one of the bastards.

Fundie? You bet. He died handling snakes.

Ignorant? Well, he could read and write.

My mother got a scholarship to the U of Ala. and married a man from NJ where I was fortunate enough to be born and raised in the urban northeast where there is no ignorance and no fundamentalism and not enough sun to make any necks red. Now, my lungs are a bit red permanently from the chemical plant I grew up next to!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. We need to learn to relate to and persuade the uneducated and

economically disadvantaged in language that resonates with them.

Most are more sinned against than sinning.

[ReadTomPaine]

54. It's better to take aim at the top of the GOP than at the bottom.

Virulent republicanism is a top down phenomena. Giving the rank and file a hard time doesn't work well here. You need to take out the top leadership to drive the 'crazy uncles' on the porch calling for gay concentration camps back into the country's cultural basement. These people are always ready to crawl out of the woodwork when things start turning their way. They have never had any real power or say in the GOP and never will.

Take aim at Bush and the GOP, Dobson and Falwell. Knock them out of power and favor, and people will be scraping off those bumperstickers after the fall just like they did after Nixon. Right now, they are just human shields for the GOP agenda. Confrontation in this case should be saved for moments of personal challenge- better to expend that energy where it does more good, by energizing our own base and getting our own people elected.

[maxsolomon]

55. how about the term "Dullards"?

seems to encompass the problem.

[LostinVA]

56. Sorry, my family are a bunch of ignorant, redneck fundies

Who are also horribly racist and homophobic -- I can't stand them. I've never known such a bunch of borderline evil people. Thank Goddess my parents moved us away when I started college and my sister high school.

ALL of them violently disagree with your entire first paragraph.

They live in NJ, btw.

[Tactical Progressive]

65. You know, we need a better term than 'homophobic'

Not that it's inaccurate, just that it's kind of ... excusatory. Racists aren't race-fearers, they are the aggressors. It's others who have to fear from them. Homophobic is just another word that lets them be the victims. Afraid for themselves as an excuse to do bad to others that -in fact- pose no threat to them.

I don't know what that term would be.

[LostinVA]

68. I agree with you -- I actually thought that when I wrote the post

[TallahasseeGrannie]

97. I'm sorry you have family who are evil

that has to be astoundingly difficult.

[misanthrope]

57. The rednecks I know,...

...regardless of their socio-economic class, don't believe in any of this:

"peace before war, state sponsored medical coverage for everyone who needs it, unions that protect the workers and workers rights, jobs that pay a decent living wage, the separation of church and state, the teaching of science and critical thinking in our schools, more stringent environmental laws to protect the water we drink and air we breathe, a government that represents all of the people in our country and not just the wealthy and wealthier, a womans(sic) right to choose (and all MEN out of that decision period), the utilization of alternative energy sources and the phasing out of dangerous polluting fossil fuels...against the death penalty"

And most of them would say that "an agnostic who believes in the teachings of Christ but not organized religion" is still a godless heathen who is bound for Hell and would not consider such a fully-valued member of society.

[LostinVA]

61. I said the same thing in post #56

[Javaman]

58. "ignorant redneck fundies", works for me.

I live in Texas and see them all the time, have to deal with them all the time and unfortunately, have them living in my immediate area.

Sooo given that, rather than being politically correct, I prefer their equal and opposite kin: The smart enlightened country folk.

Rednecks are rednecks, whether they live out in the sticks or in downtown Dallas or Manhattan for that matter (trust me on that one).

However, in the same vein, there are good folks in the sticks and good folks in Dallas (and yes, in Manhattan too).

I think the ignorant redneck fundie term is something that, frankly, is promoted by the MSM. If you take a look at most of the "odd" behavior that takes place in the country as reported by the "news", the MSM would have you believe that it souly takes place south of the Mason-dixon line. Meaning all the "extremist points of view when it comes to loving moron*, abortion, burning the flag, supporting the troops, pushing Iraq, hating Cindy, etc. So as much as we complain about people not being PC and that the MSM is full of repuke shills*, we are equally guilty of listening to their spew and regional stereotyping as the next person.


So there you go. We are all ignorant rednecks.

Yeehaw howdie LOL

[misanthrope]

63. I remember...

...after seeing "Summer of Sam" the first time, someone asked me how it was.

My response was that one of the most obvious things Spike Lee illustrated in it was that "regardless of location or accent, rednecks are everywhere."

[Javaman]

74. exactly

[misanthrope]

84. But that's still no defense...

...of willful ignorance.

[Javaman]

130. Ignorance is universal and stupidity is never in short supply.

[PurgedVoter]

64. I am a fundamentalist, redneck and I endorse this message!

Bedford Falls would have been filled with fundamentalist rednecks. But we live in Pottersville. Our problems come from hate preachers, political profiteers, and Mr Potter. Not a follower of Ideals, Ethics or Christ in the lot of them.

[misanthrope]

86. Don't know about you...

...but Pottersville looked a lot more enjoyable to me than Bedford Falls. At least Pottersville had a night life and some entertainment.

[Burma Jones]

66. Ignorant Redneck Fundies live in ALL States

Even Hawaii..........

If, however, you refer to the South Bashing that goes on here from time to time, well, my family comes from the South. Some of us are Progressive and some are not, but we all basically hail from Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri and New Mexico. Being Southern makes you Republican about as much as being a Male makes you a Bicycle Rider......

[LostinVA]

69. And nations

I've seen my share in England...

[Burma Jones]

75. Briefly saw some show about "Hate Rock" last night

as I was flipping through channels. Couldn't stay on it though as my 7 and 5 year old kids were still up...

Anyway, they had a bit to say about the BDP and how White Power music and neo-nazis have a fair showing in jolly old England.....

[TallahasseeGrannie]

103. Appears they are doing well in Australia at the moment as well

[erinlough]

106. I live in a part of Michigan that is chock full of "ignorant, redneck, ...

fundies" and all of those words reflect exactly who they are. They will never....I repeat never vote Democrat. They never have and they never will and I will not pander to them anymore.

[eppur_se_muova]

70. Just to discombobulate everyone...

I recently read that the term "rednecks" was introduced by border Scots immigrants, who used it as a pejorative for Presbyterians.

I think it's meant to convey a suggestion of stiffnecked reactionary conservatism -- you know, the "things was better in the old days" crowd, who long for the golden past when no one questioned authority and white men felt free to dispense God's justice (to women and nonwhites) with the back of a hand.

I've read no alternative etymologies for "ignorant" or "fundies", so they probably mean what you think they do.

[eppur_se_muova]

72. Dupe deleted

got an error message it didn't post. Hmmm....

[ChairmanAgnostic]

73. isn't ignorant and fundie somewhat redundant?

[sniffa]

81. i'm devastated whenever

someone attacks my white brothers and sisters. we've been through so much, and yet we stiLL can't see the mountain top.

[ret5hd]

96. LOL!!! And still, tjwash can't even be bothered to reply to his/her own..

post!

What a bunch of flamebait!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[nemo137]

111. You're missing the point.

You know why black people don't vote Republican? First, cause Republicans don't do shit for them, and second, because of the obvious fucking distain that most Republicans hold for black people. Now, as yourself the same question about why poor white rednecks don't vote Dem. It's the same answers, innit?

It's not about white people being oppressed, it's about understanding why we persist in alienating a big chunk of the country.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. Oh, baloney.

Right. More "helpful advice". Turn on AM radio or FOX News, and sooner or later you're bound to hear, essentially, the following: "Put down your brie and lattes, you treasonous, terrorist-loving, god-hating, effeminate coastal wine-sipping queers... and stop slamming us red state heartland folk"

If making fun of people or insulting them is such a bad political tactic, why does the right engage in it CONSTANTLY? Who throws more fucking nasty, personal insults at people- Al Franken or Bill O'Reilly? How many times has Ann Coulter said that liberals should be beaten with bats, shot, or put in camps? Have you EVER heard Michael Moore insult rednecks?

It's NOT HAPPENING. "Alienating a big chunk of the country"-- how? What constitutes disdain? Funny, after the election we had all kinds of 'helpful' people saying that we need to jettison support for gay rights, or reproductive rights, or separation of church and state, all the while sprinkling gratuitous references to Jesus into our politics. If it's our positions that are 'alienating' these folks, I'm not sure there's a whole hell of a lot we should do about it.

[LostinVA]

122. We don't alienate them, the GOP and themselves have

Nixon's "Southern Strategy" started it. And, these "ignorant rednecks" hate some people so much (blacks, gays, women, etc.), that they eat up this attitude of the GOP, in spite of the fact that they are voting against the people who hate them and keep them down! The GOP has also recently tried this with very religious Blacks, and it hasn't worked (only a teeny bit), because Blacks are smart enough and aware enough that they are being manipulated to spite themselves.

I see my idiot redneck relatives vote GOP all the way, even though they all have safe, fat State union jobs. They are also hypocrites.

Again, they have alienated themselves from ME.

[Nikia]

85. I have become more conscious about this

I work with a number of people who might be considered "ignorant redneck fundies", the Wisconsin variety. I still don't feel part of them, but it probably didn't do any good for me to think of them as a stereotype. I think that thinking in stereotypes be it by race, class, religion, sex, sexual orientation or a combination of all of them keeps many of us apart.

[The Whiskey Priest]

87. You make an excellent point

Everything you state is correct and valid.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Sorry, but ignorant fundies ARE a big problem in this country.

Maybe there's other desciptors one could use. Hey, maybe "redneck" is a racial slur. But you-have-got-to-be-kidding me- if you object to pointing out that the God-Damn Religious Right, with its Dobsons, Falwells, Robertsons et al, and their jihad on choice and birth control, their war on science, their bullshit blather about how fucking victimized they are every time the target check-out person says "Happy Holidays"... if you object to people mentioning that, fuck yes, they may not be THE problem with this country, but they're sure as shit in the top FIVE.

And someone is supporting these fucks. How would you prefer they be described? As 'values voters' we're just not trying hard enough to woo over- but maybe if we shove the gays to the back of the bus, stop talking about separation of church and state, and jettison any remaining commitment to reproductive rights, we just might be able to? God knows I've heard that streaming line of BS enough here.

While we're on rant, is "fundies" the problem? "ignorant"? How the hell are we supposed to describe someone who wants to lecture a rape victim in a pharmacy trying to get emergency contraception? Someone who thinks gays should be put to death? Someone who not only LITERALLY believes that the Earth is 6,000 years old and Dinosaurs were on "Noah's Ark", they want that fucking blather taught in Public School SCIENCE class? And if you haven't noticed, these assholes already control most of our government, and they're on a theocratic RAMPAGE right now..

So Please. Enlighten me as to how I should gently not try to offend such caring, sensitive, intelligent members of our society.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

99. I guess I'm just different in how I approach people

And I'm not sure why. But when the lady would come in to change my mother's bedding in the nursing home, I just talked to her about her children. Or the weather. Yeah, she had a heavy drawl and went to Assembly of God. But I didn't quiz her on her politics. I assumed we would be different. But I was grateful and I reached out. I feel the same with parents of kids I teach... I know many are strong Republicans, but I look to the things we have in common. We talk about their kids; I give advice. My sister is a Republican. Our parents are dead. We share a lifetime of family memories I am not going to jeoparize in the twilight of my lifetime by talking politics with her.

Because I really don't care. They have their beliefs and I have mine. I don't judge a person by their politics. To me they are not "fucks" to be either supported or judged. They are human beings. Period. And if they belive the earth is 6000 years old, or that Mohammed is God's prophet, or that Moses parted the red sea, or that trees have souls, I don't care. Not one bit. I am not here on earth to judge anyone. I am not better, holier, more nuanced, less ignorant than anyone. I don't see life as us against them.

When you start thinking you are right about everything...well, when I do that at least, I know I usually wrong about that.

So we'll agree to disagree. If that's they way you approach other human beings then have at it.

[Warren DeMontague]

113. Here's the rub...

Because believe it or not, I understand what you're saying.

But Houston, WE HAVE A PROBLEM in this country, and certain far right interpretations of religion are a BIG part of it. Really, it blows me away that you seemingly don't get that.

Oh, I don't mean what people believe, personally. Really, I don't give a shit, or a hoot, or a fig, or a holler, what people personally believe about the Universe. I don't.

But if everyone could be content with their beliefs- leave the inside of their heads inside, yes, their own heads--- and accept that other people might feel differently- and also be able to leave fundamentalist religion out of the statehouse, or the public school SCIENCE class, or other peoples' birth control prescriptions... Nope, none of this would even be an issue, TG.

But some- some- folks of the fundamentalist stripe have MADE these things an issue. They have MADE their faith, and their interpretations of reality, a political issue in this country because there are a shitload of them that are determined to take what is left of the Constitution of the United States, tear it up, and turn our nation into a theocracy.

I'm sorry if the swearing offends you, but I'm not sorry for expressing my feelings this way- because as far as I'm concerned, this is quite possibly the biggest threat to American Democracy and Freedom we've had to face, particularly when the blind, dumb (yes, dumb) undemocratic impulses of some of these theocratic pinheads is married by convenience to the self-interests of an incredibly powerful corporate oligarchy. In case you haven't noticed, that's kind of what we're dealing with today.

It's only 'us against them' because THEY have defined people like me as "them". See, I'm discriminating against Christians every time I insist that science be taught in public school science class. My wife is oppressing them every time she gets her oral contraceptives from a pharmacy. I'm an "anti-Christian Bigot" because I think Churches, as opposed to courthouses or public schools, are the place for 10 commandment monuments, nativity scenes, or teaching kids that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

Here's an example: Even in my pretty liberal part of the country, we've had several letters to the editor this past week complaining about store clerks and advertisements using the word "holiday", issuing belligerent threats to the store owners and talking of protests and boycotts. I spent years working in retail. "Happy Holidays" is not new, and it's certainly not part of some special liberal 'war on Christmas' that just popped up this year. I won't even get into the anti-semitic angle of the whole nauseating thing.

But does it bother me that people are buying into this stupid, obnoxious line of blather when their self-proclaimed "Christian" president is busy causing white phosphorus to be dropped on living human beings halfway across the world? Um, yes, it does. (Oh, but Bush finally found some folks in this country to blame for the Iraqi insurgency and our 'bad reputation' in the middle east. You get extra points for reading between the lines and figuring out who "They" are. Here's a hint- check the Q&A.)

Yep, when you're talking about people who are intent on turning this country into a theocracy, whose short sighted definition of 'morality' and 'values' is simulataneously allowing a gaggle of criminal greedheads to endanger the long-term viability of human life on this planet, yeah, it makes me a bit mad. Mad enough to swear, mad enough to call other human beings 'fucks', even. I'm sorry, But Rev. Fred Phelps is a fuck. People who think Gays deserve the death penalty, are fucks. People who think the Earth is 6,000 years old (despite a ridiculous amount of physical evidence to the contrary) and who think that Man and all the animals were plopped down here in our present form 6,000 years ago (despite a ridiculous amount of physical evidence to the contrary) and who also -here's the important part, so you don't miss it, TG... it's not just about what they themselves believe- who also insist that nonsense be taught to MY children in public school science class... yes, they're "fucks", too. People who think it's any of their business if a total stranger has a birth control prescription filled at a pharmacy- they're fucks.

They're still human beings, but they're fucks- and I don't think it's out of bounds to imply they might be ignorant, to boot.

I don't believe I'm 'right about everything'- far from it.. that's why I would make a shitty fundamentalist.. but I do think I'm right about one or two things, and an unapologetic commitment to the Separation of Church and State in this country is one of them. This is a political board. Clearly there's going to be criticism of people, positions and opinions. I have friends and relatives who are republicans, too- but strangely enough, Republicans get criticized here all the time, and no one blows a gasket like the OP did over "ignorant fundies".

And I'm not here to judge people, either (that's pretty far down my list of interests, actually) but what I AM here to do is fight for what I believe in- my country, its constitution, its freedoms, and what I know it can be--- if and when it lives up to its highest ideals.

[LostinVA]

123. Excellent post n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

129. That was an excellent, impassioned post and good arguments, all

Sorry I am late in responding..had dsl problems all morning.

Perhaps this is an age difference. I am definitely getting mellow as I advance and realize my time is very limited.

But perhaps it is also a trust thing. Because I will agree that Fred Phelps and his ilk, including Robertson, etc., are vile souls. And I know that some follow them blindly because their vile-ness resonates within them. And I know there are surely some people who would love a Taliban-like theocracy. But I see them as being in the minority, albeit well-publicized minority. I honestly trust our system of government enough that I don't think they will ever achieve their goals. We made it through McCarthy. We have come out of the repression of the 50's.

They might make some showy splashes in the media with this or that drugstore (just using that one issue as an example) who won't fill a prescription, but it's an empty threat. Bottom line, birth control is demanded, it sells, it makes the drug companies money and it will be there. I hear the fear in your "voice" about these excesses but have to ask, do you think there is any chance you are overstating the threat because you're listening to the spin? Because I don't see where these folks have made much headway. Sure they are fussing about "The War on Christmas" and it will rile folks up for about ten minutes. It is a wedge issue and the more we freak about it, the more successful the wedge it.

The 10 Commandments aren't on the Courthouses and Nativity scenes are gone. I don't see the ACLU losing ground here. I see lots of challenges, but to me we are holding firm. I see people who want it so, but I see checks and balances and a system that guarantees separation of church and state and I don't see it seriously erroded. A threat? Yes. But there will always be a threat to our freedoms and it's our job to fight those threats legally, within our system.

But I also have tolerance for the great masses of these folks (not the vile ones at the top) because I know that many fundamentalists are what/who they are because of their own personal needs, and I sympathize with that. We all look for comfort, for crutches, in life. Their myths are theirs. Nowhere in this country is it demanded that the Creation myth be taught. They have some labels for the books. Big deal. I teach. Kids laugh about that. They make sure they mention in science class that evolution is a theory. No biggie there, either. That just picques the kids' curiosity about what is a theory and they set in to prove it.

Everybody has to have a framework to live within and they have established theirs because for whatever reason it works for them. I feel I cannot question that. If a woman believes she needs to wear a burqua, I just have to understand. If she wants ME to put one on, however, I trust the country that has proteced me for 6 decades will continue to do so.

Throughout history, humans have been at odds with each other over all sorts of things: women, territory, religion, trade. Each "side" is sure they are right. When we listen to each other and respect each other, regardless of race, creed, whatever, then we can move on at least a few steps forward for each one backward because we have made that CONNECTION. Eye to eye, see each other, smell each other, share a meal. Understand the other is human. What concerns me about your distress, however, is that you are setting up an entire group of humans as your enemies. But when we revile people from afar, place them into assigned groups (ignorant redneck fundies) they lose their humanity and then it is possible to think the unthinkable. Violence. We on the left think of ourselves as lovers of peace, champions of peace. But peace is not just pulling our armies out of harm's way. Peace comes by seeing the humanity in the other guy and refusing to turn an human into a cartoon person.

Many of us were ready to look past Tookie Willliams' past and see the humanity of the man. If we are going to do that for a murderer, we need to do it for the fundie family down the street.

I hear your passion and I respectfully have to tell you that I believe you are allowing the vile people at the top of the other side to bring you down to their level.

But, like I said, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

But I really don't like the term redneck. I think it is hurtful. I teach a lot of kids who get called rednecks and they definitely don't think it is funny. No matter how you look at the word, it is a slur. If I called a kid a redneck I would be fired the next day.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. Coincidentally Enough

As I was folding laundry today, I was listening to an audio tape (How retro, huh?) of one of my favorite authors discussing one Korzybski. I understand and appreciate semantics and the veil of language enough to grok that Fundamentalist1 is not Fundamentalist2 is not Fundamentalist3, and so on..

And I do appreciate, or at least personally believe, that behind every set of eyes is, essentially, the same consciousness. I am you as you are me as we are all together, walrus and all. Verily, sometimes I wear my taoist-buddhist hat and I'm quite the understanding, compassionate, empathic one.

But, again, this is a political board, politics in this country oftentimes being a rather lower-chakra affair, and when you drag in the cartoonish, simplistic level that discussions on religion have denigrated to in this land of late-- you get my drift. That's not a justification, but it is something of a clarification. Another clarification: I don't "hate" fundamentalists. Like another song says, aint no time to hate. And I agree that peace begins with understanding. But I do hate what certain far right fundamentalist groups are trying to do in this country, and I don't think anyone is served by trying to soft-pedal or understate their agenda or activity.

Here's another example. My ex-girlfriend from a couple decades ago, who listened to me rant all through the Reagan years, had lunch with me and her British friend not too long ago- and the conversation turned to politics, and she motioned to me and said "he was warning me two decades ago about everything the religious right is trying to do today- and I always told him he was exaggerating"

I say that not to prove how prescient I am, but rather to illustrate that people have been accusing me of over-reacting to some things for quite a while. Like another song says, I wanted to be wrong. But there were relatives of mine who died in Nazi death camps. Sadly, history is replete with unfortunate souls who said, in effect, 'oh, he doesn't really mean "Vernichtung"'...

Sorry, when it comes to creeping totalitarianism and impulses towards it, I don't really care to fuck around. There are plenty of groups- powerful ones, at that- in the US advocating things like "Biblical Law" and "The Rule of Christ". Roy Moore, that gem of a judge from Alabama whose name has been bandied about as a presidential candidate, has said it is perfectly legitimate for the state to execute people for being gay or lesbian. You pooh-pooh the example of women getting harassed and lectured in pharmacies- but aside from the fact that such things would have been unthinkable just a few years ago, the evidence is mounting that such incidents are NOT isolated, and egged on by these far-right fundamentalist groups, the war on not just abortion, but legal birth control stands to continue and -mark my words- escalate.

We haven't even seen what a Bush-dominated SCOTUS will do, but I happen to know that -even more than Roe v. Wade- Griswold v. Connecticut (and its pesky 'right to privacy') has been the REAL target of the far right legal think tanks for many, many years. Sure, maybe that's 'hype' or 'exaggeration'. Maybe.

And I also don't think it's an 'overreaction' to be upset by the battles over so-called 'intelligent design', or however they're peddling creationism these days. Teachers all over the country report being intimidated OUT of teaching science and biology. Kansas has taken it upon itself to REDEFINE science, because they didn't like the answers that science was providing. Meanwhile, the polar caps are melting. I WANT my grandchildren to live on a habitable planet... as well as one that isn't ruled by 14th century throwbacks. We don't have time to screw around with redefining science- we need our kids to LEARN it.

But, I do hear what you're saying. My anger in this regard is strong, but it's by no means my dominant emotion. Unlike the post-it-and-run OP, I do, however, think that 'ignorant fundies' (bear in mind, that doesn't mean ALL 'fundies' are ignorant, it is just singleing out the ignorant ones) can be a legitimate shorthand at times, although I wouldn't put it at the pinnacle of intelligent discourse. I'm sympathetic to what you're saying about 'redneck', however.

Peace.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

135. You have hammered me down to a blithering pulp

Or maybe I just need some coffee. I have really enjoyed this exchange. I truly think we are on the same page and probably differ in this concept "how bad is it."

Now, I might tend to underestimate the threat because I'm getting older, or because it is my nature; I'm not sure. But I do hear and respect your fears.

I had a long sit down with my father-in-law not long ago. He grew up a "hidden" Jew under Hitler and immigrated here in the mid Fifties. When I drew a parallel between now and then, he laughed at me. That might also have fed into my lack of fear about just how far the religious right can actually go.

But, I'm unlikely to change you and you're unlikely to change me. I can rest easier at night knowing there ARE folks like you who ARE a bit hair trigger when it comes to our rights, and maybe you will be helped by knowing that there are people like me out here who will plant gardens and save bags of beans and rice in case the bad times come. We each do as we can.

Peace Out! (as my middle school students say!)

[Joe Chi Minh]

131. There's profound truth in what you say. I don't take back

what I said on another thread on this topic, about "rednecks" being working-class people who are finks and traitors to their own best interests and those of their fellows, who lick the boots that kick them.

However, what makes the issue a lot less clear-cut is that in some cases, the people concerned are absolute saints, but are just totally unworldly and are taken in by the propaganda of the "respectable" villains of right-wing politics. It's similar to the distinction the Catholic Church makes between formal sins and actual sins, whether venial or serious; formal sin being a bad thought or act, period, whatever the context and extenuating circumstances, if any. Actual sin, on the other hand, entails the guilt of the person concerned, because the person is fully aware of its badness and there are no extenuating circumstances, and still goes ahead and commits it.

I have close family, who were border-line rednecks, but judging from their actions over many years, I know that they are basically very good people. It's not even that I'm that impressed with their "conversion", as I suspect they now realize that the right never ever had their best interests at heart. And I know another couple who are just very obviously saintly people, who are maybe just coming round to seeing that the right wing is a no-no, for any sane wrong person. I can't even be sure of that. But what I do know is that they are as desperately unworldly as they are saintly. Unfortunately, one of the failings of the institutional church is that, far from encouraging people to understand Jesus' teachings about being "as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove", it is a precept they sorely neglected to teach; perhaps preferring to view it as being solely concerned with preaching the Gospel. I can't see it that way. Saintly, unworldly people need good worldly-wise people to help them in the affairs of this world, just as they, themselves, will rely on their spiritual help, in order to enjoy the blessings of Heaven in the next life.

I should add that it is very difficult to imagine unwordly "rednecks in good faith" in the US, as American capitalism is so "red in tooth and claw", it seems impossible for somone with a good heart to be taken in by such obviously criminal mountebanks as you have there today.

[Joe Chi Minh]

133. "wrong" in the sentence ending, "....just coming round to

seeing that the right wing is a no-no, for any sane wrong person, should read, "...any working person".

[Lorien]

108. Caucasian is a race, redneck is a condition. n/t

[stepnw1f]

105. Gotta Link? (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Nope! It was another "Post-n-Run".

:yoiks:

Whotta surprise.

[stepnw1f]

119. I Figured

I love doing that.

[Jacobin]

112. Your description of your positions

Makes it quite clear that you are not an "ignorant, redneck fundie" so why are you complaining about people complaining about "ignorant, redneck fundies"?

I don't get it.

:shrug:

[No Exit]

116. You're not an ignorant redneck fundie

and yes, I know you said you were DESCENDED from them, not ONE of them. But, anyway, YOU are not an "ignorant redneck fundie". So don't identify with them.

What if you say you ARE one of them? I say you're not. Go on any right-wing forum--I suggest you pick either freerepublic or libertypost.org, and tell what you believe in, just as you did here. Then tell your ancestry.

They will immediately swarm you and say you are a POINTY-HEADED, EFFETE, ELITIST, LIMOUSINE LIBERAL, PINKO, AMERICA-HATING HIPPIE. You will reply that you are NOT. They will tell you THEY know better than YOU what you are.

I think you're being too hard on your ancestors. Or maybe you weren't brought up by them? Either way, you somehow got some level-headed views into your head. So why identify yourself with "ignorant redneck fundies"?

Here is a description of people whom I think are a big part of what is wrong with this country: people who were not all that moved to vote by the republican candidate (George W. Bush), but who rushed to the polls because an item was on the ballot that would "ban gay marriage". These are one-issue voters. They would go out of their way to deliver a slap to the "fags", and so they did, and stayed to mark "George W. Bush" on the ballot as well. Never mind that the majority of the "laws" they were voting for won't stand up to even the most cursory constitutional challenge. They just wanted to "vote against the fags". AS IF such a vote could stop people from being homosexuals. AS IF. (And AS IF "stopping people from being homosexuals" would do anything at all to improve the country.) Those people are ignorant redneck fundies. They are so stupid that when Pigface Rove says "jump", they say "how high?"

[newportdadde]

125. How do we define redneck?

To me redneck anymore is turning into like some kind of club, I see a lot of big city rednecks up here in KC. Kids riding around in raised up trucks and cowboy hats who closest experience working with a cow is reaching for 2% in the fridge. Its like a testostorne club.

I grew up on a farm in rural Missouri, my 'huge' graduating class had 50 people. The nearest town at 1500 people and was several miles away. The nearest 'big town' had 15k people, to get to a major city, 60+ miles away.

By all accounts I would be a redneck right? Yet here I am working in a corporate environment and you wouldn't guess my background in a million years. The only thing that would give it away are some phrases.. such as 'crick' instead of creek etc that my wife laughs at. My father is a Democrat as am I, so was my grandmother.

There are pockets of Democrats all through rural areas in the US, some go to church some don't. Some work on farms, others work in town. We shouldn't so easily dismiss what was once our populist roots. Did you know that even in rural areas rednecks don't think they are rednecks but those people in that other town or down in that area are the rednecks, we even divide amongst ourselves.


Did you know those same rednecks in Kansas were once the champions of the populist movement?

[Inland]

132. At least you get an "ignorant redneck" qualifier

and can at least think they don't mean your mom and dad.

The broadest of brushes is left for the just plain old religious believers, who can be mentally insane, driven by a fear of death, enablers of completely evil institutions, the butt of jokes or the object of ignorance depending on the method of the poster to preach the evils of religion per se.

There's no attempt in those threads to distinguish between good and bad believers, and it's intentional...some don't think there ARE any good believers.

Its insulting the majority for the fun of it.