a question for those concerned about authoritarianism in schools

[ulysses]

I have a new student in my reading class who just moved here with his dad from Miami. Being new to "The ATL", he of course feels as if he has a lot to prove and has regularly, whenever I ask/tell him to take a seat and quit interrupting the class, informing me that I he's from "the dark side" and that I should try wearing gang colors in his neighborhood and see how I make out. For a couple of days, he took to calling me "massa" whenever I gave the class any kind of direction. Last Monday, after asking and then telling him 4 times to remove his hat in class, I took the hat off his head for him and put it in my file cabinet. To this, he informed me that I'd better get a gun and kill him then because he didn't like what I'd done. I continued with the class to the accompaniment of his muttering and posing "gang" hand signals.

I think I'm actually seeing some improvement in this young man's behavior, but I'm worried that perhaps I overstepped my bounds in not allowing him his choice of headgear in the classroom. Help me out - what should I have done?

[Cleita]

1. Gang wear and colors have been forbidden in Los

Angeles area schools, at least when I lived there, for the reasons you state.

I really don't have any advice for you, but I thought to myself back to my parochial school days and I can't imagine any of the nuns putting up with that shit. His knuckles would have been bleeding from the ruler slaps in no time.

[ulysses]

6. oh, they're forbidden here too.

I don't think this kid is actually in a gang, or if he is, he's trying to get into a localized one.

I don't have near the leeway the nuns of yesteryear did. Taking a ruler to this young man would be the fastest way for me to lose my job, and would be *quite* authoritarian.

[Cleita]

9. Another thought.

There's an old movie out there. I think I remember it as being named "Stand Up and Deliver". It was based on the true story of a Math teacher in East Los Angeles, whose class became champions of some sort in Calculus. The teacher was played by James Olmos.

It shows how he dealt with the gang bangers, (in E. L. A. most of his class). He scared them by showing them what their lives were going to be like without an education.

Maybe it's out for rental somewhere. It's a great movie.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Stand and Deliver

Jamie Escalante (sp?)

He was also an awesome teacher. He earned their respect and taught them more Math in one year than most kids learn in 10.

I loved his fractions lesson.

[Cleita]

20. Thanks for the corrections, I couldn't quite remember.n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Best teacher movie ever n/t

[madeline_con]

101. Another thought....

I'd be very careful about removing his hat, etc. He might start whining you'd hit him or worse.

I always made sure I was on the oposite side of the room from the kid before instructing them to remove hoodies, headbands, or whatever was not permitted.

How do ATL schools work as far as discipline? All we have to do is press the call button and two large men will appear to remove problems from the room.

[ulysses]

107. we have call buttons.

Someone might come, if they have the time. More often then not, they don't, so it's left to us.

And trust me, I protect myself concerning allegations of hitting, etc.

[WindRavenX]

2. When I do teaching, I have the 3 strike rule

You get warned once to stop the behavior.
If I have to warn you again, I move you to sit in a chair near my desk.
Third warning? You're out of class and to the Principal's office.

It's worked for me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. I have the same three-strike rule.

I often start out the process by asking "do you like baseball"?

snide, I know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I think it would be a hoot to teach with you Grannie

I like being a smart aleck too. I like to say "Which part of _____ don't you understand?" I say it so much now I just say "Which part of" and they do what I have asked.

[Telly Savalas]

102. I'll occasionally tell my daughter...

"Which part of 'no' do you not understand?"

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. A great strategy I learned from a psychologist

for situations like this, when a kid is being noncompliant is to ask him if he CAN do what you have asked, like if they know how. So Ulysees could have said "CAN YOU take off that hat?"

No kid wants to lose face in front of his peers and admit he isn't capable of what we are asking. This works very well for things like the hat, or getting out the pencil, or sitting down.

[ulysses]

7. yes, well,

that's relatively mild stuff here. The admins would just send him back and discuss my "classroom environment" with me...

[WindRavenX]

8. really?

Bummer dood. They usually hold disruptive kids til the end of the period when they can go to their next class...

[dsc]

14. If you are still in Atlanta you need to go to your union over this

It is totally unacceptable that the Administration won't suspend those who issue threats toward teachers. I can't beleive the AFT would toterate that nonsense. If that doesn't work I highly suggest leaving that school. You can't teach in a school which tolerates threats against staff. As to the underlying hat issue if you have been enforcing it then you need to enforce it against him.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. I wouldn't give this kid 3 opportunities to repeat this behavior

I use 3 strikes too but sometimes you need to stop the nonsense right away. And a lot of kids will push you to see if you really mean they can act out twice before really getting into trouble.

[hfojvt]

60. I used that at a youth center

it sorta formalized things for me too, because I always wondered, how much or what kind of unruliness I should tolerate before I kicked the offender out. So I told her "That's one. If I get to three, you are out of here." Next time, instead of telling her to knock it off, or whatever, I just looked straight at her and said "two!" It seemed pretty effective at least in that case. Previous to that she probably was getting told to knock it off a dozen times or more. So, two is not that bad sometimes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Sometimes one is too many

Three strikes is a great tactic. Don't get me wrong. But sometimes, you need to pounce quicker. A parent won't let a kid run out into traffic twice before he acts.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. I'm a teacher... 30 years

if you don't let other kids wear hats, you were correct.

Any chance you can get some one-on-one time with this kid?

ON THE OTHER HAND, personally I consider his gun comment a threat and I'd document it and report it. Think about it. I know as teachers we try to go with the flow a bit when kids act out because we believe in positive and not negative reinforcement, yada, yada, yada. But basically this child threatened to shoot you. Sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees.

[ulysses]

10. it's documented.

For all the good it'll do.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. Wow. In my district he'd be gone.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. In my district, if we kicked out kids like this,

we wouldn't have many kids left. LOL

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. Well, we don't quite kick them out

we have a variety of other placements: alternative schools, in school suspension, juvie, "second chance," Tallahassee Maritime Academy, Teenage Parent Program, PACE...we have at least a dozen other options. But I also don't think we have a big gang problem yet. We have some kids who kind of think they are in a gang, but it isn't the "bigtime." Our kids are fairly rural around here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Ulysses and I both teach in the 'inner city'

I hate that term. I should say we teach in urban schools.

I am so so lucky. I am in a small elementary school with a fabulous principal. We have a good mix of kids - hispanic, white and black plus a few Asians. We also have a lot of extra programs in my school. We have a health clinic with a nurse practicioner(sp?), a dental clinic, a full time social worker and a full time truancy officer. We have the best attendance in our district and our test scores rock too. We got this award 5 years ago: http://www.dese.state.mo.us/divteachqual/sii/goldstar/

[TallahasseeGrannie]

69. You sound justifiably proud of your school!

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. It's a great model for what CAN be done

in an urban school.

[tx_dem41]

4. IMO, you did the right thing.

Quite frankly, if you feel physicially at danger, I would talk to the principal.

[The Icon Painter]

11. Why?

Why are you calling our lovely city by that revolting publicity firm creation 'the ATL'? We are Atlanta, a brave and beautiful city, not ATL which sounds like a rap singer's(?) term. Please, let us not roll over for this attempt to make us what we are not and never will be.

[ulysses]

12. sorry

It was "the ATL" where I teach well before it was an official slogan.

[ultraist]

13. I don't think you should have removed his hat

If hats are against the rules, as they are in most schools and he refused to take it off himself, you should have sent him to the office.

Teachers have no right initiating any type of physical control over other people's children, unless they are posing an immediate threat to themselves or others, which would mean appropriate restraining.

I don't care that it was just removing his hat, it violates his physical boundaries and further escalates the power struggle.

BTW, what grade is this?

[ulysses]

16. LOL!

you should have sent him to the office.

As if he'd have gone. As if they'd not have sent him right back.

He's in the 8th grade.

[ultraist]

24. What power DO you have?

Other than violating some kid's physical boundaries?

As a parent, I'd talk to any teacher that removed my child's hat and tell them to keep their hands off my child. It's important to have clear boundaries for both sides. You've crossed that line with him and opened up that door. Let's hope he doesn't reciprocate in the way you have modeled to him.

[ulysses]

27. let's see...

I can keep asking him nicely and keep having him ignore me.

I can try calling the parent, but in my school's neighborhood, they usually don't pick up when they figure out that a call is from the school.

I could assign him detention and ask him nicely to attend.

[H2O Man]

58. How important

was the hat? First, to you? Second, in your opinion, to the kid? Third, to the class?

It sounds like the hat wasn't of as much significance as the power struggle between you and the student. Clearly, this young man has issues beyond what you are going to be able to deal with as a teacher in a classroom. But in order to do what you can, it might be best to identify what the hat means to everyone. At risk of asking a foolish question, I would think this is a good place to start. From the posts I've read, I do not think it is clearly identified.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Use your cell phone

[ulysses]

72. you should see my bill.

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. Borrow the principal's cell

LOL

[Patchuli]

49. Perhaps you as a parent

(figuratively of course) should teach your child to respect his/her teachers and that hats are just plain rude to wear indoors and in class. This enabling behavior teaches these kids to have no respect. "Your not my mama" mentality is not acceptable when you, the parent are fully expecting that teacher to help your child obtain an education. How about you relinquish a little of the power trip over the teachers and the school districts and allow them to do their jobs? Enabling bad behavior is not good parenting.

I agree that I personally will send the hat wearer to the office before I will take it off but then, I live in a much milder place than the one described. My admins back me up 100% and have told me that my library is my castle. I should think that the threats against the teacher would disturb you more than a teacher merely removing a hat from a student.

[1monster]

51. Frankly, as a parent and a teacher who has to deal with a certain number

of students who refuse to follow any kind of rules (even when they are meant for the welfare of the students) and get into the teacher's face, and in this case, threatened the teacher, I'd love to be able to tell you just what kind of parenting I think you are giving your child! If my child acted like that in school, I would withdraw him and send him to some military academy for a year or so to learn some appropriate discipline, becaue I would have obviously failed as a parent.

To get an idea of what teachers face every day, I suggest you become a substitute teacher for two or three weeks in the middle and high school arena. I bet you come away with a different attitude.

And for what it is worth, removing a hat from a student's head can be done quite easily without ever touching the student.

on edit: cleaned up so typing errors

[dsc]

59. With all due respect parents such as you are what is wrong with education

Your child has no right to decide he will follow some rules and not others. He isn't the only student in the classroom and frankly if my child behaved as the child here behaved the last thing on earth I would be doing is discussing what the teacher did wrong. My child would be grounded for several weeks and I would be showing up in school the next day to witness his apology to that teacher. If it wasn't sufficiently apologetic, he would go home that day and we would try again tomorrow and every subsequent day until he got it right.

[ultraist]

88. Oh, okay,

A parent such as myself is what is wrong with our educational system? That has to be the most idiotic excuse for poor schools I've heard yet.

I didn't say the child should decide the rules, did I? The OP essentially asked if he did something wrong, we aren't discussing this with the child. You seem very confused.

There is a difference between using a respectful authoritative approach and a strict authoritarian approach. Removing an eighth grader's hat, off his body, without his permission was not the best way this could have been dealt with. For safety reasons and respect for the child, it's important to maintain distant physical boundaries. Removing clothing doesn't do that. The kid is not a toddler, he's a teen.

BTW, I'm also a Social Worker who has worked with foster kids that have severe behavior problems and have training in working with children with varied disorders.

[dsc]

91. Parents who take up for their student after the senario posted

are indeed a problem with education. Teachers all too often are expected to work without back up of any kind. I wouldn't have taken the hat but I would have written him up after the second request to remove it had been ignored. Evidently my school would have been better than his in regards to what would have been done to him after the referral than his. But frankly teachers have every earthly right to remove hats when a student won't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. The thing parents like this don't seem to realize

is that there wouldn't be a problem at all if their child had not acted up in the first place. It's not like Ulysses dared the kid to put that hat on. LOL

[ultraist]

95. Now you are saying "a problem"

rather than:parents such as you are what is wrong with education

There's a difference between those two comments.

I don't think a parent asking a teacher not to remove their child's hat is a problem.

Is a parent who doesn't teach their child to be respectful or back up the teacher when the child's behavior is unacceptable in the classroom a problem for education? Of course. But it's the "what's wrong with education."

[dsc]

99. Other than funding I can't think of any other problem

that couldn't be eliminated if parents backed us up.

[NashVegas]

109. A Respectful Authoritative Approach With No Teeth is Doomed

Removing a kid's hat is nowhere near in the same league as any kind of corporal punishment.

If the kid is sent to the principal's office, that's abdicating authority. That's saying, 'okay, I can't make you take your hat off, but this person can.'

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. He absolutely did not violate this kid's boundaries

Do you teach?

This kid violated the classroom boundaries by being disruptive. If this was your kid and you came in and challenged me for removing the hat, I would refer you directly to the principal's office and let him/her have a talk with you about how to make your kid respect the rules in my classroom. He would also most likely hand you a copy of the school district's code of conduct and point out where it says no hats and no gang signs. There is also probably a teeny little clause in there that addresses talking about using guns. I know in my district even mentioning the word 'gun' can get a kid suspended.

Please tell me you are more concerned about a teacher taking a hat off than about a kid talking about using a gun, making gang signs and wearing a hat AFTER he's been asked to take it off.

[H2O Man]

73. It seems to me

that he may have violated the kid's boundries, although it is important to note the boundries the kid set were not acceptable. It may be that taking the kid's hat off was not the best alternative; it may be it was the best of the bad choices presented. I'm less concerned that the action harmed the kid, than it could escalate.

I think one of the most obvious problems in schools today is that teachers are expected to be social workers, including with budding anti-social teens. That does not mean that I think this kid is "lost" -- just that his needs are beyond the scope of a classroom.

I respect your opinions here. It is a tough situation. Those who are talking about "good parenting" seem to assume that this kid has that available. I doubt it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. It's shady

but LWolf pointed out correctly that a hat can be removed without touching the kid. I know I would take it off if I was in Ulysses's shoes. And it sounds like it worked.

I still think he should contact the parent. Even the worst parents have the right to know their darling is having problems at school. And even the worst parents will eventually cry uncle and ask for help. They get really tired of the school calling them.

If this kid is really disturbed, as it sounds he may be, the real power in getting him help is in his dad's hands. The school can only do so much. So even if this kid is not getting the best parenting, his parent is the only one who can truly solve the problem.

[H2O Man]

80. I agree about

trying to reach the parents. I'm not as sure about the hat, though I think that is best viewed as a minor point. Your post #39 is the single best on this thread.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. thank you

My dad was a principal and he taught me that trick. Works with parents too. If I call and ask them for help, they are much more receptive than if I call to complain about their kid.

And I guess you can tell I am really all about involving the parents. It is THEIR child, not mine. I am a parent too and I couldn't stand teachers who wouldn't communicate with me. Nothing made me madder than to get a report card with less than acceptable grades and have that be the first time I had any idea my kid was having problems.

So I work overtime to involve parents. I have followed the bus home and gone to see many a mom at her work. I also knock on doors on my way home. I just won't let them dodge me. When parents challenge me, I insist on them coming to school and sitting in my room to see how their kid acts. If they say they can't take off work, I offer to call their boss. Funny thing is no kid acts a fool when Mom is sitting there. But it sends a powerful message.

This problem Ulysses described may sound like a little one, but once we lose control, we may as well pack up and go home. I am just determined not to let that happen.

[H2O Man]

105. Oh, I agree the problem

is large and significant. The hat wasn't really the problem, though. The way people viewed and reacted to the hat was.

Your father's trick works with many coworkers, too, who have an obnoxious edge. I found that asking their opinion went a long way. Not the exact same thing, but similar.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Usually before I send a kid like this to the office,

I go in and talk to the principal or VP first. I ask them for help. I may even write up a summary of what he has been doing. I go in and ask them for suggestions. They almost always say 'Next time he acts up, send him to me'. That way, when I send him, it is their idea, not mine. ;)

[Elidor]

111. It bugs me that the admins won't back you up

A documented threat ought to be worth at least an in-house suspension. My SO has a student like this (also from Miami, in fact), and his mere presence in the room changes the whole dynamic and encourages disruptive behavior from all the other students. Fortunately, when he called her a bitch, the administration backed her up.

When she worked in Nashville schools, she was told not to send anyone to the office because they would just send them back and come down on the teacher. In cases like that, a teacher is almost powerless. What can you do? The first time someone calls your bluff, you've lost control. You're left trying to outsmart them, trying to manipulate them into complying with your directions with psychological tricks.

Administrators who can't be bothered with disciplinary problems are not worth a damn. This is a fucked up situation for you.

[LWolf]

62. I'll have to respectfully disagree.

There is a big difference between taking someone's hat away and physically restraining them, which violates their physical boundaries. Even then, physical restraint is ok in very limited circumstances, to prevent the student from harming him/herself or others.

When students arrive in my classroom, I tell them quite cordially what they can bring with them, what they can do with those items, and what they cannot. I'll also point out, still cordially, that turning any item into a toy or a distraction, or, in this case, an expression of defiance, automatically loses it for them. It goes into a bin, to be collected by parents. I have one colleague who puts those items into a "June Box," to be collected by parents in June, on the last day of school.

In the classroom, what I say goes. If they don't like it, they can ask to conference with me privately, they can ask to meet with admins, etc.. They may not take up other people's learning time with defiant behavior. While there is certainly a time to "send them to the office," that should be rare. That is a giving away of power, and does not lead to a long-term respectful relationship.

If a parent wants to make sure that I don't ever confiscate anything that their child brings into the classroom, they need to do these things:

1. Pay attention to what the expectations are and then pay attention to see if their child meets those expecations.

2. Teach their child to treat authority figures with respect.

3. Teach their child appropriate choices to resolve a conflict with others.

That probably sounds pretty authoritarian, but in reality, my students and I generally have a relationship of mutual respect. They aren't afraid to disagree with me, because they've learned that it is safe to do so if they express it respectfully and privately.

You make a good point about the power struggle; whenever I find myself in that situation, and it will happen a couple of times a year no matter how careful I am to establish mutual respect, I have to reflect. What is the power struggle really over? What is the student's goal? I will generally conference with them privately to discuss these issues, and call parents in if it seems appropriate, or if I think there is a parent who cares. Often, in these cases, there isn't. That's where the rage and defiance come from to begin with; relationships with adults in their private lives. At that point, I pull in other adults on campus, and we try to set up a network of support for the student. A student who won't follow a simple rule like "no hats inside" often is not likely to make any academic efforts, either. They are the students who cross their arms while everyone else is working, and glare at the teacher, daring him/her to "make them" learn. It isn't really about the hat, or whatever the student has chosen to express the defiance. It is a power struggle. The teacher's point is that a student with those kind of issues cannot be allowed to take a whole classroom hostage while they play out their personal dramas. Sending them to the office every time they refuse to follow directions doesn't work too well, either. They'll be back, still not following directions, in 15 minutes every time.

[ultraist]

90. Huh?

Did you read my post? I didn't say they were the same did I? The teacher removed the hat off his head. As I noted, teachers shouldn't get physical with kids, UNLESS it's to restrain them to prevent them from causing immediate harm to themselves or others. This is for the safety of the teacher as much as respect for the child. You misunderstood what I wrote.

I was addressing the OP regarding the headgear:

but I'm worried that perhaps I overstepped my bounds in not allowing him his choice of headgear in the classroom. Help me out - what should I have done?

I understand basic parenting, thanks anyway for the tips. :eyes:

[LWolf]

104. I'm not responding to you as a parent.

It wasn't your child.

Most kids don't have the kinds of issues presented; not all who do have parents with any concept of "basic parenting."

I'm responding as a teacher to the suggestion that taking away a hat violates personal boundaries.

I'm also acknowledging your point about power struggles, and adding some other information about how that plays out on a school campus.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Tie him up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5565960

Seriously though, I think we need to learn to pick battles with kids like this. It is probably best to ignore the 'massa' comments but you were not wrong to take the hat. I am assuming wearing it is against school rules, as are the gang signs. In my school, we have to turn things like that into the office and the parent has to come get them. It was a new policy started last year and it is working well. So I would recommend you do that if you still have the hat; don't leave it in your room. Kids like this will burglarize your room to get their property back.

Now maybe it's because I teach elementary school but I would never have let this kid insult me or disrupt my class more than one day before calling the parent. I understand 3 strikes but this kind of behavior would get exactly ONE strike in my classroom. I have found, especially when kids are new like this and want to disrupt, that involving the parent ASAP is almost always very effective. Even the most ineffective parents don't want to be bothered by the teacher calling. A colleague calls this tactic her 'bill collector approach'.

If it is difficult or impossible to reach the parent, I would mail him a letter or take a colleague and make a home visit. I never go alone to visit families, especially if they are new like this. If that failed, I would ask my principal (maybe a VP in your case) to step in and help.

[ulysses]

17. heh - our dear friend was all over that

but I'll be surprised to see him here.

I'm having some difficulty getting contact information for this student. Parents who don't want to be bothered get wiley after a while.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Oh and such a dear he is

I am thinking he'll show up just to rub some dirt in. LOL

Is there a social worker in your school? A counselor? Are you friends with the secretary? If he just enrolled, the dad had to fill out some kind of paperwork with address and phone, etc. SOMEONE in that school knows how to get ahold of this kid's parent. Does he ride the bus? Where does he get on? Ask the bus driver.

What would happen if the kid got sick or hurt at school? Trust me, there is a way to contact this parent. It may take a little extra effort, but it will pay off. This kid will shit a brick if you come knocking at his door tomorrow evening and ask to talk to his dad. I have done it a brazillion times. Even if Dad is not at home, you will be sending a powerful message.

Funny story - a coworker had a problem child like this and he decided to knock on the kid's door one evening. Dad invited him in, listened to the teacher, didn't say a word or ask any questions and when the teacher was done telling Dad what had been going on in school, Dad politely excused himself and left the room. Next thing the teacher hears is wailing from the next room where the dad was 'discussing' the kid's behavior with him. Dad then comes back in the living room, sits down and says, "Thank you for taking the time to come by and talk to me. I can tell you really care about my son. He will not be a problem anymore. Now, would you like a cup of coffee?"

Trust me, find that dad.

[ulysses]

38. well, I'm still working on it.

I'm getting better at working that system. Slowly. :)

[Patchuli]

52. Thanks for that!

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. That was about 20 years ago but it still makes me laugh

The teacher said it was like a scene from a comedy movie. Oh and he never did see the kid while he was at the house. Spent 30 minutes drinking coffee and chit chatting and the kid never came in the living room to say hello.
:rofl:

[Klimmer]

19. Being a Physics HS teacher here in San Diego . . .

Does your school or classroom have a no-hat policy? If so it shouldn't be a problem confiscating the item. He should know the school and your classroom policies. You have the authority to do that. But you should ask and have him give it to you. If he refuses then that is defiance, and the appropriate actions can then be pursued. I would never take something physically from a student (unless of course it is a weapon and it can be done without incident --- just for the record I've never had to do this. Hope I never, ever have to either). Let them get busted for refusing to hand it over. That is defiance. Let them dig their own hole --- and then on to the counselor, VP, or Principal however your school handles discipline problems.

The student is disrespecting you in front of the class by calling you "Massa." That isn't your official title. You call him by his real name, treat him with respect without calling him "Little Shit" even though he may be deserving of the title, as to not embarrass him in front of the class. "Treat others the way you want to be treated" --- the golden rule.

". . .he informed me that I'd better get a gun and kill him then because he didn't like what I'd done. I continued with the class to the accompaniment of his muttering and posing "gang" hand signals."

That is a serious threat, and should be treated as such. Inform your administration at once and call the student's parents and inform them immediately what he has done. Do you have campus police? Inform them also immediately.

[ulysses]

26. yes

Does your school or classroom have a no-hat policy?

School, and I believe district policy.

[Warpy]

21. I'm afraid you did exactly the right thing

althogh you should have handed him his hat on his way out of class.

This kid sounds like he's got a real case of the "wannabes," and has picked up some pretty rotten heroes. There is no reason to tolerate insults, intimidation, and downright threats from a student.

I'd start talking to the principal about this kid. It sounds like he's heading for real trouble if somebody doesn't get through to him, which may be one reasons he's not in Miami any more (the geographical cure). In any case, it's gone beyond mild rebellion. Threatening a teacher with death is serious. Treat it as such. Don't take any crap from this kid, either.

[ulysses]

28. that's what I did.

althogh you should have handed him his hat on his way out of class.

The improvement I mentioned? He's taken the hat off the first time I asked since then.

[Patchuli]

29. You walked in the right direction

but stopped short of the goal needed. You are exactly right; your classroom is your CASTLE. Your students are expected to behave respectfully and to do as told. Asking a kid to take off his hat is perfectly acceptable on your part. His behavior would have earned him a seat in the vice-principal's office with a write-up. The gang behavior is completely out of line and not to be tolerated. My district has a no tolerance policy toward gang behaviors, colors, etc.

What makes me mad about this where I live, the parents will sometimes take the completely wrong attitude that "Hey, my kid can wear his hat if I say so" and thereby undermining the ability of the teacher to teach their child. I cannot stand enabling parents. We have a few of the variety you described. We also have one of the fiercest former street prowling in his youth (former MBA player too) YARDDOGS you have ever seen. He's about 6'5 and he takes good care of students who wanna act tough. heheheheheeeee

STAND YOUR GROUND. If you don't teach him respect is required and he's sure not learning it at home, where's he going to end up someday? I don't like the answer we sometimes get...

[ultraist]

31. Part of teaching respect is modeling that behavior

Not stooping to their level and doing inappropriate things. I don't know why some teachers believe it's ok for them to act inappropriately but not the children.

[ulysses]

35. after I ask a child several times

and quite politely to do something, and am greeted with disdain, what would you have me do?

More to the point, when I haven't taught any of the other students to read by the end of the year because this student hasn't responded to the level of respect I'm giving him, what should be my excuse?

[roguevalley]

43. finish the class and then go to the idiot in the front office. Have him

come and sit in your class when he's there a couple of days and have him do the discipline. They have assistant principals in our district who only do discipline. Eighth grade? They can be dicks at that age. I'm sorry your classroom environment is being hijacked by a dickhead.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Ulysses, he is playing games - big time

You need to show him that YOU make the rules and he is welcome to play but it is YOUR game, not his. That game starts when you say it starts, and it ends when you say it ends. You can do this and still treat him respectfully.

I honestly don't believe you are going to let this kid ruin the year for the whole class. You seem a lot smarter than that to me.

[ulysses]

45. of course I'm not.

I'm just wondering what ultraist would have me do. :)

[ultraist]

65. You are the teacher...

You don't have any solutions? You sound a bit defeatist and helpless. If your admin doesn't back you up in any way, if you're unable to send him to a chill room, the principal's office or detention, then why don't you send him into the hall and give him an F for the day for not getting his classwork done?

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that sending him to detention, wouldn't do any good. First, if they don't attend, they can be put up for suspension in most school districts. It's a first step, out of the classroom or out of the school. You have to start making this kid realize that he will be out of your class if he doesn't stop disrupting your teaching. If he ends up suspended temporarily or permenantly, your problem is solved. Lay out for him, comply or you will be out. Yield your power but don't resort to behaviors you would not want him to parrot. Model appropriate behaviors for him.

If you believe it's ok to resort to physically taking something off someone's body and that's the only thing you could have done, it doesn't seem you are too open to other solutions.

[ulysses]

68. actually, I'm neither defeatist nor helpless.

In fact, we're having a pretty good year. Once the kids get to know me, and understand that I'm not going to tee off on them if they're having a bad day, I'm generally the one they seek out when they *are* having a bad day. My room *is* the chill room for the behavior disorder kids, and they act right when they're with me.

Then again, they know not to wear their hats into my room. They had to learn that I don't play with them, just as my new student is learning now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. We can't send kids into the hall!!

That would mean they aren't supervised which means we are not doing our job.

If I ever put a kid in the hall I would be in HUGE trouble.

[dsc]

81. I work in a mobile unit

just think of how well that works for me. My situation isn't as good as yours but not nearly as bad as Ulysses'. I think part of it is the difference between the level of buildings. But clearly your building has an amazing administration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. It is a team approach

Yes we have a fabulous principal but she expects us to run the school. We don't take petty crap to her to solve for us. She also isn't a control freak, wanting to know every little detail. She sees herself as more of a facilitator than an administrator. We have had a few teachers who just didn't like that approach and transferred to other buildings. She also upsets her fair share of parents. If they call her with a concern, she almost always sends them back to the teacher to work out the problem. And we go through VPs - it seems like we have a new one every year.

I have had 7 or 8 other principals and she is by far the best. But she is not everyone's favorite. I was really ready for a change when I landed in her building. And boy did I ever luck out.

[dsc]

84. We are getting a new principal next year

and I am waiting to see how that turns out before I make any huge decisions. Between what I consider a too lenient attitude toward student misbehavior and the fact this is a little small of a community for my taste I am leaning toward leaving but a good principal could turn me toward staying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. I can so relate

The last principal I had reprimanded me for having school stationery on my desk. All these years later, I am still trying to figure out what I did wrong.

I am seriously considering another district level job for next year. I had an offer this year but declined. If I decide to stick around at my school, it will be because of several things - my principal being at the top of that list. But I am really ready to get out of the classroom.

[dsc]

92. that is bizarre

Personal reasons are at least as big for me but if I get a loony principal I will be so out of there.

[Patchuli]

57. I didn't see this teacher

"stooping" to namecalling or threatening this child. This child's behavior was intolerable and your attitude enables that behavior. You should go sit in a few classrooms and observe the disrespect the kids dish out and see how long you would keep your patience with them. I also work in a junior high and it's the age from hell. Teachers deserve and need parental backup and reinforcement. Imagine putting up with a room full of hormones on feet 7 periods a day.

[ultraist]

85. Oh BS

My attitude does not enable the kids. Physically removing someone's hat is not necessary nor is it a productive way to discipline in the class, IMO. Sure, it's not a big deal and doesn't rise to the level of any type of misconduct, but there are better ways.

FYI, my daughter is very respectful of her teachers and I've discussed many times with my children that teachers have a stressful job with crappy pay---I've encouraged them to have patience and certainly to NOT disrupt their class, as it's selfish. All of my daughter's teachers have raved about how polite and respectful she is. She's in sixth grade. My son, who is in eighth, is a bit of a class clown and has been sent out of the room for joking or tapping his pencil. I always back up the teachers with these situations by taking privileges or grounding him. (He is very high energy and has made a lot of progress with his behavior and grades over the years).

My kids' teachers like both my husband and I---even the verbally abusive teacher my daugher has---you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. Yeah these school threads usually get a lot of posters

who don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.

[Patchuli]

96. I think I do "have a clue"

since I work in a school and you do not. That boy's misconduct is called "defiance" and it definitely must be addressed. The hat is incidental. He broke rules and defied the enforcement of the rules.

Your kids are not the kind of kids we are talking about here either. While there are some bad teachers, the majority are paragons of patience. Some of our kids look like gangbangers and have all the moves. Those are the disrupters generally.

Like I said, I'd like to see you spend all day with a 6 or 7 classes of 30 or so adolescents smarting off to you, talking over you and pushing every conceivable button you have trying to get the better of you. In the process of this "clowning" the other kids lose precious learning time. Thank heavens that our admins back us up 100%.

That kid should have taken off his hat when asked and I think Ulysses had every right to remove it.

BTW, things change between sixth grade and eighth, even with nice kids.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

30. ulysses, have you read Teacher Man?

Frank McCourt is on BookTV this weekend. He talked about some of his techniques to get through to those kinds of kids. You might check it out.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5562127&mesg_id=5562152

[ulysses]

33. just got it for my birthday.

:)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

41. Happy Birthday!

:party:

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Madeline Hunter

has some excellent ideas in her books about how to deal with kids who try your patience. Most teachers regognize her as the anticipatory set/lesson design lady but she also had a degree in psychology and really understood how to talk to kids. She was principal at an alternative school for awhile. Check her stuff out. She is one of my role models. I got to meet her once and still treasure the memory.

[Klimmer]

32. One other thing . . .

If your school administration is unresponsive to the student's threat towards you, and the district doesn't care, get a hold of your union ASAP and let them know what has transpired.

[roguevalley]

37. you didn't. what I don't understand is why you didn't get the admins

to take this on themselves earlier. don't wait so long and assume he's going to mellow and change. he just threatened to kill you essentially. also, your kids deserve every single day of their education and you deserve every minute of your teaching, not just the ones some dickhead allows you to have when he finally shuts the hell up. tell your principle. what a total ass this kid is. Principal. Now.

Also, don't go to him as a victim, worrying about taking the kid's hat. Tell him in a list what he's done and briefly -BRIEFLY- what you did about it. Tell him you need his attention to this unstable acting kid. Also, keep a daily interaction diary of what you have to do with him around. Makes the he said-she said stuff go away.

RV, 27 years teaching.

[ulysses]

40. they tend to be a bit busy

dealing with other behaviors. Like I say, though, it's documented.

[immoderate]

54. Do you write it down in front of them?

Let them see you write it. One of the best tricks I learned from an old pro. Also, call the parents when you wake up.

--IMM

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. How true

I have a notebook or a clipboard and by this time in the year, I just have to pick it up and they chill.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. I don't really think that can be called a threat

he informed me that I'd better get a gun and kill him then because he didn't like what I'd done

Sure we can imply threat, but these kids are smart. They know exactly how to avoid saying just the right thing.

[1monster]

42. Hats of any kind are prohibited in our school district. How old is this

student? Because from what you have stated, this young man is not only challenging your authority, he is threatening you. That is definitely an offence worthy of a referral.

A couple of years ago in our school district, a fifth grade girl was expelled for threatening to use a gun against a fourth grade teacher who caught her walking on top of the jungle gym when she was supposed to be in class...

Report this kid to the guidence counselor and the dean, immediately. He could be a serious danger to you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Something else just popped in my head

Why did this kid move here? And from another state? Is it possible he got expelled from another school? In Missouri, it is a law that teachers have to be notified when a kid who has been expelled from another district (even out of state) enrolls in their class. The discipline record follows the kid and must be available to all school personnel who have contact with him.

Since this is a two state area, kids do this a lot. They get kicked out of KCKS and use auntie's address to enroll in KCMO. I believe the same thing happens in St. Louis. In a large metro area like here, they hop in and out of school districts all year long. So the state put this in the safe schools act. I wonder if there is a similar law in Georgia?

[ulysses]

55. I'm not sure about a similar law

but we definitely get similar behavior. I'll check on that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. A couple places to look

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/support/plan/nclb/usco.asp
http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/schools/safety/drug_free.asp

[Maestro]

66. No headgear is a rule, he needs to abide by that rule

Removing his hat is fine. You did not touch him in any way and I believe that he was fairly warned. I've removed all sorts of questionable clothing from children, called parents to come up to school with new clothing or simply sent them home for non-compliance. You didn't overstep your bounds in my book. However, some of mutterings may have. I would keep a close on him.

[ulysses]

79. I am.

I really think he's harmless, but I am.

[Guy Fawkes]

78. About hats (and, consequently, respect)

In 12 years of schooling, there has been only one teacher I have not held in high regard. He was an evangelical Christian and would not stop preaching his religious and political beliefs (far right) in class. His anti-semitic and homophobic comments made me extremely angry.

But for other teachers, I show my respect. Part of that respect is to take off your hat. I don't think that it's such a burden to remove a hat (in the classroom- rules should not be enforced at lunch or in the hall). No, you (probably) shouldn't have removed the kid's hat- you should have kicked his ass out of class. If a student is being seriously disrespectful, then they have no place in the education system.

Also, I'd talk to the school administrator/police about this young man's threats.

[countingbluecars]

82. I think you handled the situation

fine. You say that you are seeing some improvement in his behavior. Hopefully, after his initial posturing, he will get to know you and come to understand that you care about him. You are in a great position as his reading teacher. I taught reading at an alternative middle/high school for several years. I found that great stories/literature and humor were my best teaching tools. I could always hook the toughest of kids by reading to them. But that was over a decade ago. I imagine it's more difficult now.

[Rex]

86. Head gear is not a big issue to me.

Sounds like he has no self-control. What grade do you teach?

[RazzleDazzle]

97. Seems to me there's a big ole gap between authoritarianism and

garden-variety, everyday discipline. Can't have much of a classroom without discipline, even if it's real casual.

And respect. You can't get no respect from some of these types if you don't demand it -- and if you don't give it.

Sounds to me like the young man is testing the waters, pushing the envelope, and seeing how far he can go, how strong you are. You gonna fold? Or you gonna be there for him if he dares give you respect that you seem to be demanding. He wants to know if you're worth respecting, I'll bet.

Are you?

Somewhere there's got to be a way to be respectful of him while still demanding appropriate behavior from him.

[renie408]

103. Bingo...

I think the way you achieve respecting him while demanding appropriate behavior is by calmly and steadily going about your business and don't allow his behavior to dictate YOUR behavior. Don't get dragged into a confrontation. He is trying to find his place. He is going about it in a particularly obnoxious way,unfortunately. But he has other kids to impress, a niche to carve, a personality to develop, and relatively few resources at his disposal. He apparently has chosen "Bad boy gang member persona" as his entree into school society. Poor kid. Why can't they look around and realize that while geeks are way less cool in school, Bill Gates is now laughing all the way to...wherever the hell he feels like.

[ismnotwasm]

98. You are seeing some improvement?

I think that's cool. To me it means you've done something right. You set boundries, he didn't like it, but he's settling in a bit. He's a displaced kid trying to fit in a new school by showing off.
It's such a sad commentary that kids think they need to "show off" by using gang signs and the like. Sadder that that is really what they go home to.
I know it's 8th grade, but do you do current issues? I don't know what's allowed in schools today. I was thinking the whole "Tookie" contraversy would be a interesting class discussion. Or something similar. It might be too intense, but if you have a class that is generally a lower socio-economic class I bet they all know about it. And I bet they have opinions. And if they are not, it opens a window to a world that most middle class kids don't actually know much about.

I'm not a teacher, but I was a very bad kid. (Many, many moons ago)

[madeline_con]

100. Headgear is not permitted here on the Space Coast...

refer to the school's dress code.

You might want to talk to the principl and his parent/guardian about his behavior.

He sounds like a harmless loudmouth trying to come off as a badass to the other students, but you can't be to careful.

[ContraBass Black]

108. Is there a rule against hats? Is there criminal insignia or profanity

on the hat? Does it have lewd words or pictures? Was it distracting to the class?

If not, then you overstepped.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. I would be willing to bet there are few schools that allow hats in class

That is a fairly standard rule.

[DrunkenMaster]

112. you should have kicked him out of class

wearing gang colors and uttering threats is most certainly "creating a hostile learning environment". You're worried that you are restricting his "choice" by telling him he can't wear gang colors in the classroom? No wonder he feel he can intimidate you: you have no control over your own students and he knows it.

[ulysses]

113. well,

there might have been just a wee bit of sarcasm in the last part of the OP. :)

[theboss]

114. How old is the student?

Any time a student starts talking about guns and killing people, I would get concerned.

Anyway, you were right for taking the hat from him. It's not about authoritarianism. It's about rules. If you have a rule that says "No hats in class," he has to abide by it. If he wants you to change the rule, there are ways to go about it that do not involve threats.

[Loonman]

115. Fucking kids these days

Not fit to work in a facotry.

Not like the lazy sonsabitches would, anyway.