I'm sorry -- taxes are just too high... (a mini-rant)

[Cats Against Frist]

...on wage-earners, at least.

A couple weeks ago, my bf worked some OT. Under normal circumstances, his long-week* pre-tax check, for one week is about $900. He normally gets paid, after taxes, about $680. During Thanksgiving, he was offered (not forced) the chance to work Thurs and Friday, which count as holiday pay, bringing his hourly wage from $17.25 to about $43. He also worked an extra day that week, and his pre-tax check was just over $1,500. They took OVER $500 in taxes. Some of it was for his group health ins, SS and Medicaid and state tax, but damn near $400 was taken by the federal government.

I remember, when I used to sign petitions, and I would joke: "I always vote for more taxes." This was when I was sub-poverty level, driving a barely running 16-year-old car, living in a rented moldy-ass bungalow of about 650 sq. feet. My son and I didn't have health insurance, BF made about $12 an hour -- and I thought "well, it's someone else's problem, if they have to pay more taxes."

Also, don't get me wrong -- I don't think that the poor are the biggest burden on federal taxes. They're not my problem. My problem is all the other waste that my taxes pay for: corporate bailout, subsidies, politicians' cush salaries, the gigantico military & war, pork projects, Bush's Christmas Parties, paranoia, etc.

Even when we were poor, they took a good chunk of our money for taxes. But we didn't have much to maintain, so we made it work. We always pretend that being rich "makes you a Republican," but the truth is -- what about being middle class, and seeing 1/3 of your check sucked up for this bullshit? It's not like my family is rich. I take my role as an educated consumer and democratic steward RESPONSIBLY and SERIOUSLY. We are not extravagant people. We have a $900/mo house payment, a $250/mo car payment, a $400/mo insurance payment, a $240/mo student loan payment, and a few other bills. We try to be responsible, and save between $500-$1000 a month, so we don't have to rely on credit cards. We try to make responsible consumer choices that sometimes lead us to have to pay MORE for goods, than people who don't care: like buying locally and not patronizing chains, buying American and buying better-made, buying organic food, more durable and less wasteful goods, and energy-saving devices. We shop secondhand for everything else that we can -- and really, we don't buy that much stuff.

We also have only one child. And I'm lucky to have a fellowship -- for now. The only way, pre-fellowship, that I could be a stay-at-home parent was if we were willing to be dirt poor. I feel that, in an ideal society, that one parent should be able to stay home with children, until they are school age. I don't know if I can have another baby, because I can't afford to live in a modest home, with a 2001 car, on one income that, on $35,000, after-taxes, a year. After they take out $10,500 in taxes (not counting property taxes), a year.

When you try to become responsible, and provide someplace other than a moldy bungalow, or a flophouse, for your kid, or decided to drive a car that is, at least, from within a decade, you realize that your hard work is being fleeced not only by "the man," who is paying you way less than you're worth, as far as the money THEY'RE making from your productivity, but by a government that is taking 1/3 of your income to pay the Mossad out of the back of a truck, in Iraq, it pisses you off. My boyfriend works hard -- comes home covered in grease, exhausted. He's lucky to have this job -- and we try to save, for when they decide to ship it to China. Even though he has a degree, it's in music, and he's making bank for an unskilled laborer. We're lucky, and we know we are, and we're responsible, and we treat our luck and our responsibility with respect, and try to do right by the community and the environment. Mostly -- no one is perfect. But to see the ultra-rich feeding off our work like pigs at a trough, and our government taking one-third of our salary, mostly to NOT HELP ANYONE AT ALL, sucks royally.

Something needs to be done -- but raising taxes on the middle class. It's sad how Bush baited the middle class with a tax cut, and gave most of the savings to the ultra-wealthy. It sucks that people are not responsible consumers, and keep giving money to the ultra-wealthy, instead of finding more responsible ways to shop. I don't know if I really feel sorry for the middle class -- or just for myself. Most people aren't trying to make the world a better place by refusing to support factory farms, chains or outsourcing companies. Most people are just letting the rich fleece them triple time -- once when they aren't paid what they're worth, twice whem they spend that money at Mammon's Consume-o-Rama, and third, when they pay so much wage tax, so the rich don't have to.

It's fucked up, man.

(*He works 12-hour shifts -- 36 hrs. one week and 48 hrs. the next week).

[liberalpress]

1. Congratulations..

... you and your BF have seen the result of the Bush administration's tax cut program for the very wealthy. You and your BF, the working middle class, and to some extenet the working poor are shouldering the biggest hunk of the the tax burden.

The frees up money fpor the wealthy so they can "trickle down" to the Caymans to vacation in their tax shelters.

[Kansas Wyatt]

34. The Tax Code needs to be retro-ed back to it's original purpose.

Redistribution of wealth, not the layers of perverted fleecing of working Americans that has been occurring over the last few decades, which benefits the wealthy elite and provides Corporate America with the fruits of the American worker's labor and hands them corporate welfare.

The Tax Code has been reversed from 'Redistribution of Wealth' to a 'Consolidation of Wealth.' Many of you who rally to demand taxation at all cost, seem to skip over how the system has been rigged and hi-jacked to harm the purpose of what you are advocating.

[Yupster]

46. The original purpose of the income tax was redistribution

of wealth?

Well that's a new one on this old history teacher. Where did you get that idea?

The original stated purpose was to pay for the war and the tax would be temporary. Then it would be used to pay for government services.

FDR was the first to use it for redistribution to any degree, especially with Social Security. FDR made it a point to say his major redistribution programs like the CCC and WPA were very temporary to deal with the current crisis. It was only in the Sixties that redistribution became a more permanent part of the income tax code with programs like AFDC, medicare, medicaid, housing subsidies, energy subsidies, mass transit subsidies, etc.

[Kansas Wyatt]

61. Original purpose was "temporary" huh?

Okay, old history teacher. Let's go back in the way back machine, and examine what the original rates were and which economic classes paid their fair share, compared to today's rates. Oh, that's right, Reagan always whined about overburdening rates for the wealthy his whole life and the need to shift to 'trickle down economics.' Since you say it was "temporary" let's just scrap it. Also, the Social Security Tax is suppose to be an insurance trust for the disabled and elderly, and it is not supposed to be used as an INCOME TAX or spent like an INCOME TAX. If it is used as an income tax, then the Federal Gov't has broken a contract with Americans that appear on federal withholding forms. Slippery slope, in tricking the honest working people, while gaming the system.

Oh, and while you include medicare and medicaid, please explain why working Americans are having that deducted from their paychecks separately from the Federal Tax. You might also explain all of the federal taxes on communication services (with totals a considerable sum in each household), and what the federal gasoline taxes are for. Care to ponder how many more federal taxes are collected from working Americans on top of income tax, which again, is gamed to place the burden on the lower and middle classes to benefit the upper class and corporations. By the time you add it all up, the middle and lower classes are being severely screwed, and tax advocates turn a blind eye to this.

If Income Tax was not intended to be a 'Redistribution of Wealth' after gov't expenses were paid and a way to prevent personal empires from growing bigger than the government, at the expense of the people and government it used to get there, then we all would be paying a Federal Sales Tax instead of an Income Tax, instead of what has become a complicated shell game.

Gee, I don't know where I got such a wild "idea," but I now see that I need to be more specific while commenting on a current subject. As in, the explanation given for the current income taxes and what is wrong with the system that was sold to be a 'redistibution of wealth,' otherwise a flat sales tax would have sufficed at a lot less expense to the government all these years.

I guess we don't even need to get into the subject of what happens to the lower and middle classes, when the Federal Government reduces funding to States, and the States have to cut services or come up with the difference.

[Yupster]

62. Here's a brief history

of the income tax.

In short it started in 1862 to pay for the war as a temporary necessity. It was ended in 1872.

It was levied again in 1894 but the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional.

That created the necessity of a Constitutional Amendment (XVI) which was passed in 1913. It collected verylittle revenue until we started gearing up for WWI which brought the income from less than $ 1 billion to more than $ 5 billion in two years.

I really have no idea what the rest of your post is about.

A post said the original intenion of the income Tax was to redistribute wealth which is just nonsense. So I explained a bit of what the original purpose was.

It's not like it's ancient history written in cuneiform. We have the arguments and court decisions available for anyone to research if they want to.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html

[Yupster]

36. I don't get this?

Bush's tax cuts created the new low 10 % bracket. The 15 % bracket was expanded, the 28 % rate was reduced to 25 % and if he got into the 39.6 % bracket, that's now reduced to 33 %. The OP's boyfriend would be able to take advantage of all these cuts.

Clearly this person would pay significantly higher taxes if the system in place before the Bush tax cuts was still in effect.

A good argument could be made that the tax cuts is just shifting the burden onto future generations, or the government has not cut spending as it cut taxes, or even that the cuts in federal tax has been transferred to higher state taxes, but I don't get the argument that the reason the OP's bf's taxes are so high is because of the taxcuts because that's just wrong ass backwards arithmetically.

[liberalpress]

63. Try this, then...

If (and I know for me it isn't true) the tax cuts give you more money to spend, the resultant loss of revenue to the Federal Government results in higher state and local taxes. Those deductions can work out to more money thatn you saved with your Fed Cut.

[insane_cratic_gal]

69. That's true here in PA

a economically repressed area were wages average about 6 to 7 and hr. and 8 and 9 is a "good" paying job. Our tax for our house lot, not even new.. not even close to an acre (2 ft from my house is my neighbors on either side) is 2600 a year (and some change)

My Mom owns land in NH 2 acres and NH has no state tax so the burden is on property tax, she pays just 1800. Wages in NH are far better then here in Western PA.

[genie_weenie]

2. Speak the Word Brother!

kick!

[Deja Q]

3. Rethugs say 'we will lower taxes' but they do so for the rich, and shift

the cost onto us.

Whatever they do, it's for big business only.

You'd have thunk even the dipshits of 2004 would have fathomed that by now.

America is getting what it deserves.

Pity we're sentenced to slow, painful, humiliating death (poverty) just like they are.

[ShadyCharacter]

4. I began to realize more take home

after the BushCo tax cuts. I'm in about the same bracket as BF.

You failed to mention what state you're in. They get their cut too, ya know?

[converted_democrat]

6. You got more take home, but everything costs much more than it did.

You may have gotten to "take it home," but you sure didn't get to "keep it."

[ShadyCharacter]

7. Beg to differ

With the exception of gas, I'm enjoying the current economy.

[converted_democrat]

10. You can "beg to differ" all you like, but it does not make what you're

saying any truer. The cost of everything has gone up. Unless you're in the top 1%-5%, which I really doubt, there is no way your "cut" could have mitigated the cost of everything else rising.

edited for my awful spelling-

[ShadyCharacter]

21. The cost of everything goes up every year regardless

Can you remember any period in time that it hasn’t?

[converted_democrat]

26. That isn't the point, the point is the rate that it rises....

Oh, and off topic...You just stated above what your income is, go look at the Alternative Minimum Tax, you'll be in for a shocker. You'll be in for a real treat when you do your taxes next year.

Again, unless you're not telling me something, I don't understand how the "cuts" could have mitigated the rapid rise in everything else.

[ShadyCharacter]

31. Tax codes are friendly

to those who travel from state to state. I filed taxes in eleven states last year. I'll file in nine this year. A good CPA like mine will find me handsome returns.

[converted_democrat]

38. Believe what you wish, but your CPA can't do anything about the AMT.

It doesn't matter how many returns you get, or from how many states. The AMT is going to hit you hard, mark my words. Go look it up. There isn't away around it, and it's set to hit over 18 million people in the coming year. Go look it up, there isn't a "thing" your CPA can do about it.

edit-for spelling

[ShadyCharacter]

51. Are you talking about inflation?

If so, what's the current rate?

[converted_democrat]

64. Here, let me make it easy on ya, think for a moment about these figures.

My favorite way of approaching this subject is like this...in 1974, gas cost 50 cents a gallon- and in today's dollars that is equivalent to $2.00, ergo if gas costs $2.00 today, that means there is 400% inflation. Are you making 400% percent more money than you were in 1974?

Natural gas prices have tripled (that 300%) since 2004 - Are you making 300% more than you were in 2004?

Link goes to verify my claim in respect to the cost of natural gas.
http://www.specialguests.com/guests/data/printfullguest.html

[ProfessorGAC]

70. 1994 - 1997

Look it up. Inflation was under 1% for that aggregate period using the CPI, but since consumer electronics and clothing costs fell precipitously, the net median household demand pricing went down.

So, everything does not go up every year "regardless".
The Professor

[slor]

11. What do you do...

buy foreclosures?

[ShadyCharacter]

20. I work on steam and gas turbines

12hrs a day, seven days a week. There’s very little time off between jobs except in the summer months. My hourly wage is 21.50 for the first 40 hrs and time and one half for the other 44.

Our jobs are in nearly every state that you find turbines. I see big differences in the amount that states take in taxes. Much cheaper to work and live in the south.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShadyCharacter]

30. I don't feel

like I'm sitting on top of the world, that's for sure!

It's a seasonal thing. They don't shut turbines down in the summer unless they shut themselves down. So I have to save for the lean times.

As soon I'm to old (past that point, in my opinion) to do the harder work, they'll move me into safety or something with less labor and hours.

But, it'll mean more pay.

[alarimer]

37. And 1500/84 isn't such a great rate either

It makes the effective hourly rate abouf $18/hour, which sounds okay but with no time for a life, I don't see how it is worth it.

[ShadyCharacter]

42. When you split the case

on a 1000mW steam unit, do a major, put it all back together and hear it run.... it's worth every bit of it.

[converted_democrat]

14. These people are really "enjoying" the current economy too!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1979561&mesg_id=1979561

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. What does shadycharacter care? It's the "I got mine, screw you"

mentality of the "compassionate" at work, here.

[converted_democrat]

17. Shame usually works on people that have hearts, just testing the water

to see if our "friend" here is worth salvaging.

[Strelnikov_]

41. Guess Not.

Amazing how so many see no problem with mortgaging the future of our children.

[ShadyCharacter]

43. So….

in light of the fact the fact that you know nothing about me or the adversities that I’ve faced, you’re prepared to paint me as what?

For the record, I’ve held some rather menial jobs during my working years. I never blamed anyone but myself. (felony conviction at age 18) But, each job led to a better one. I’m confident that my current job will advance me even further.

I gotta tell ya though, ‘sard work!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShadyCharacter]

58. It must really suck

living in South Carolina.

[converted_democrat]

45. You stated that you were "doing well" while not addressing the needs

of others. And when the plight of others were pointed out, you ignored it.

on edit- If you would have gone to the link I provided you would've seen that the food pantries in Ohio are giving to 30% more people than they have in the past. If things are so "great" why are they serving 30% more people?

[ShadyCharacter]

52. Because

people are giving more to charities which in turn enables them to provide more.

[converted_democrat]

54. That's absolutely nuts. There are more people in need, period.

Ohio is in bad shape right now. They have one of the highest, if not the highest, foreclosure rates in the nation. How can you be so blind? The donations are barely keeping up with the need, and the need is higher than it's been in a long, long time.

[ShadyCharacter]

22. Typical. n/t

[newspeak]

56. I am happy that you are doing so well

As a citizen of this country, I believe it is part of my responsibility to help the commons. Afterall, I enjoy and use the highways, the libraries and other public entities. Most doctors, nurses, and other professionals that aid me have benefited from a public education. Of course, those who benefit the most from the government are corporations. Through war, they benefit-our country has come to their aid when they have problems with other countries. You say you have benefited from glorious George's trickle down flop, have you considered that states that have taxes must increase those taxes in order to maintain the infrastructure? You see, the federal government has decreased funds to the states, and there are some states now hurting because of these policies. Property tax, state income tax, sales tax must increase at some level, but you don't see it. Maybe, we should allow all of those "ethical, responsible" corporations take over the commons, since they always are concerned about our welfare, not the bottom line. (sarcasm)

[1932]

18. Congratulations. You're one of the lucky few.

However, we all do better when we ALL do better.

I think even those lucky few that do better under Bush are going to find that those short term benefits came at a huge social cost that's going to create a lot of misery unless we start doing pretty much the opposite of what the Republicans have been doing for the last five years.

[Clarkansas]

29. My friend tends to go mostly short when republicans are president

and mostly long when democrats are president. He has been doing really well with this strategy for a long time. So he enjoys the current economy too.

As for me, all of the fuel surcharges that are being added to many of my small business bills are killing me.

[converted_democrat]

19. Oh, and you might want to check out the AMT, also known as the

Alternative Minimum Tax. If you're half as well off as you allude to, you're going to get slammed hard this coming year with AMT. Go look it up, it will double the tax rate for many in the coming year. Amazing isn't it? The pukes are cutting off their noses to spite their own faces. This tax will disproportionately hit their base hardest. Funny stuff.

edit-to make clearer

[Cats Against Frist]

23. I thought I was enjoying it, too

When we made the same amount, as now, and lived in a $600/mo rented apartment, with no car payment. I was feeling pretty good. Until I decided to get my son a yard, and drive a car from the last decade.

My big problem is that pukes seem to care so much about "the family," but they don't mind the emphasis on wage taxes for the middle class, which makes it so that if you don't want to live at a sub-poverty level, or own your own property, both parents have to work. They could lighten the load on the middle class, and maybe families would have fewer problems. The number ONE reason for divorce is MONEY.

And we live in Iowa, and yes, they do have higher state taxes than Washington, which has none, and Illinois, where I lived before moving to Washington. I'd rather pay more state taxes, though, to keep the money out of the hands of Raytheon and Halliburton.

And how are we supposed to lower the tax burden, when we spend like there's no tommorow? That "republican fiscal responsibility" doesn't work so well, when you have to drain the treasury to pay for oil wars and defense contractors. Reagan and Bushler have expanded the size of the federal government -- both in numbers, in money and police power. I have to pay to have my Constitution gutted.

Don't get me wrong, however, I do believe the middle class is fucked up, and that instead of joining unions and making them strong, or spending their money wisely, they're, like I said above, letting the rich screw them in just about every orifice. But I get punished for their irresponsibility. The richer they make the ultra-rich, the more money the ultra-rich have to buy the government.

Bush's piddly tax offerings are nothing, in the face of what the overclass is MINING, yes, I said MINING from our productivity and our stupidity.

[mongo]

50. Money sure is one big carrot on a stick

Isn't it?

Back when I was actually in the middle class, I heard a lot of support for these tax cuts from my fellow drones in the cube farm.

The 2 grand we got back in taxes was a new Hummer for someone with a 500K/year income, and a new villa for the top 3%. And the crumbs they threw to the middle class were quickly eaten by new taxes on the state level, since the fed was gutting programs left and right.

You really should be glad to pay your taxes. With the nice house and a car that you're not constantly worried about you have a bigger stake in our society than the truely poor. The big problem is that the really wealthy in our society are NOT paying their fair share. They have the most to lose, reap the most benefits of America, they should be paying the most. It is their patriotic duty.

But I hear ya, I used to give 30+% to uncle sam and the state -- it does take a bite.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi ShadyCharacter!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Fla Dem]

5. Great op-ed piece. If you're comfortable with it, you should submit

this wonderfully written picture of the middle class situation to your local paper as a guest columnist.

On edit, nominated for greatest page.

[Sgent]

8. It sounds like your BF's company

didn't compute his payroll in the best possible manner -- he should get most of the extra taxes back when he files income taxes.

Instead of treating him like a $900 / wk earner with one paycheck that was high, they treated him like a $2000/wk earner. Meaning he not only owes the 33% for FICA & Federal as normal, but it eliminated many deductions and kicked him into a higher bracket for the week.

[Bunny]

24. I was going to say that too, but I couldn't figure out how to

write it so that it made sense. A lot of companies do their payroll processing that way, which takes a huge chunk out of any OT or bonuses. But, as you said, a lot of it will be returned when the BF files his income tax next spring.

[Parrothead Terp]

65. Payroll Company Screwed Up

He will get most of that money back.

[rock]

9. Forget taxes

Taxes are not the problem. Spending is the problem. Regardless of how much or little the government charges in taxes, the 'taxing' is in the spending. Every dollar spent is a tax as it must be paid back. Spending is taxing, now or later.

[Cats Against Frist]

25. I agree, that's why I'm something of a de-centralizationist

I think that all this big-budget, huge government, police-the-world, bureaucratic spending is a joke. I don't mind paying to help the poor, and the sick and children -- but I wish that more money could be paid on a local level, and run more efficiently.

[KittyWampus]

39. Rock, thanks for posting that. It makes sense.

[FlaGranny]

12. Deductions, my friend,

the rich can take so many of them that the cost of their CPAs is not even a drop in the bucket to them, therefore they wind up paying a much smaller percentage of their income than we peons.

The only semi-fair way is to outlaw all deductions and institute a fair graduated tax. We'll then be able to breathe and the rich will still get richer, just not as fast as they do now.

[Selatius]

13. The tax code needs to be reformed anyway. It's too regressive at it is.

The tax brackets, in my opinion, are not progressive enough. On one extreme, you have a flat tax. On the other extreme, you have a tax bracket scheme that looks like an L-curve where the highest brackets are aimed at the wealthiest. We're in the middle, but I think we're leaning too close to a flattened tax scheme. We have to move in the opposite direction.

If we want to replace taxes on wage earners, the most pragmatic way would be to lower taxes on them and shift some of that onto the wages of our more wealthy folks. Other portions could be shifted onto taxes on dividends, capital gains, rent income, and an estate tax aimed at the top 1 percent. The wealthiest Americans derive the majority of their income through dividends, capital gains, etc., not payroll checks.

At the same time, we need to go through the tax code and junk the gimmicks, loopholes, and needless deductions that were written into the code over the last 85 years that have allowed the wealthiest to dodge their responsibility to society's well-being.

Those resources and the means of production that they control in order to make a profit should ultimately belong to the people for the people's benefit, not their own private gain.

[filthyrichkleptocrat]

32. Taxation is so complicated it taxes the mind to boggeldygoop

Tax the rich, and some of those rich bitches are small businesses that employ us. Tax the poor and middle income folks and they don't buy as much from those rich businesses that employ us. Tax the idle rich bitches and they hire tax experts to hide their wealth. Tax any of us, and it'll hit all of us to an extent that none of us could know for sure. The GAO said they were collecting revenues at 15% above the previous record, after the last bunch of tax cuts. And that makes no sense at all. Boggeldygoop!!!

[tx_dem41]

16. It's not as bad as you make it out to be.

For that one pay check, he got taxed like he make approximately $78,000 instead of his normal $46,800 a year. Thus, for that one week he got bumped into a higher tax bracket. Depending on how much he is getting witheld a week, he should get that extra money back in the form of a refund when he pays his taxes.

[northzax]

33. your problem on that one, by the way

is that he likely bumped himself, temporarily, into a new bracket. it will increase the size of his refund, though.

[alarimer]

35. I am not too knowledgeable on taxes

But getting more money might bump himinto the next tax bracket, which may account for the difference. Also when I get extra money in my paycheck (such as partial per diem for meals, etc) it is ALWAYS taxed at about 30%, compared to the normal 11% withholding. Or it could just be a mistake.

We get 3% pay raises every couple of years and sometimes that actually results in putting someone in a higher bracket, leaving them LESS takehome than before. So your situation is probably common (and it also sucks- people who really need the money get screwed every time). Sometimes working overtime really isn't worth it.

[the_real_38]

40. The Republicans have convinced me of one thing ...

... and that's that we should cut taxes for the middle and working classes. I was finally swayed by what I saw Republicans doing with the tax money I already pay. I don't want to spend a damn dime on the military (I don't even think we need a standing army - our 'presence' around the world is usually in conjunction with some type of corporate business interest), and yet over 25% of my tax money goes to the military-industrial complex and for George Bush to piss away on a war he can't win.

The conservatives used to use this same argument about the National Endowment for the Arts - they didn't want their tax money going to Andres Serrano ('Piss Christ') or Bob Maplethorpe. And that money was, collectively, a pittance compared to the corporate welfare being doled out of my check to the likes of, say, Archer Daniels Midland. So I'm using the same now. We should definitely put the top marginal rate back where Clinton had it in '92, since that was the main factor in creating the budget surplus that George Bush has gone and thrown away.

But I have a serious proposal for Democratic candidates - most Americans know that when their money goes to Washington, they don't get jack for it. Why not have candidates who give voters a choice, along these lines: propose legislation that would allow people to deduct their health insurance payments from their tax bill? Even if it didn't get through, it would get the ball rolling - people would actually start thinking about what Government is really good at (providing health care as it does in every other civilized country), and what it does wastefully (throw money away on the military and corporate welfare). It might start a discussion on priorities, so that our tax dollars actually go to helping us.

[alfred e bush]

48. taxes could be lower by 50%

if the cash economy was taxed...jail a few employers that pay cash....make tipping illegal...everyone should pay the bills

[Bridget Burke]

68. If tipping were illegal, you'd pay much more to eat out....

Service people cannot live on what their employers pay. I'd prefer they get fair wages, too. Just banning tips is not enough.

My first suggestion: Tax the very rich & the corporations more.

Edited to add: Taxes on the middle class may be too high, but a reduction of 50% would not be necessary if we got more out of our tax dollar. How about government spending on health care, education & the environment--instead of an illegal invasion & occupation?

[Cats Against Frist]

53. That's what gets me

They've pissed and moaned about the NEA and PBS and welfare for as long as I can remember, but they have no problem throwing a pittance at the middle class, giving billions to wealthy, plunging us all into debt and then shifting all that's left into BIGGER! LONGER! BLOODIER! war.

The part that makes the federal tax so painful is knowing how much of it is just bloody wasted, and that my fellow Americans don't give enough of a shit to vote in the right people, to spend their money responsibly and shift this from a national brand to a local economy, and that the rich just keep buying the votes and the vote machines and the politicians. I don't mind paying to help people out -- welfare, not counting SS and Medicare, does not take up that much of our budget. I would consider that part my charitable donation. I just know that most of that tax suckage is going to go to waste.

[LincolnMcGrath]

47. Mistake in first paragraph.......

Pay does not increase. Paid HOURS increase. TIME and A HALF. Double TIME. Triple TIME.

[Strelnikov_]

49. The Problem Is, We Are Not Paying Enough Taxes

as evidenced by the budget deficit. We have made spending decisions, through our elected officials, and are not holding up our end of paying the bill.

Let's say we eliminate the GOP military/industrial/crony capitalist bloat. What do you think National Health Care will cost? Or some of the other progressive 'safety nets' bandied about here? Recent reports indicate we have $40 Trillion in unfunded liabilities just considering our current 'safety nets' (Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security). The 'Commons' have a price.

You also mentioned jobs to China. What do you think would happen to prices of the junk at Wal-Mart if it was to be produced here? I agree that a tariff system needs to be implemented and trade with China and other human rights abusers curtailed immediately. But I also realize that there will be some pain from these measures. My bigger concern is the loss of our manufacturing/industrial base.

The current fiscal policy of this country (the conservation/GOP mantra of 'Starve The Beast') is mortgaging the future of our children and young people.

As to what happened, the tax code extrapolated from that one week check an income of $78k/year, and was taxed accordingly. The tax refund will be larger.

Therefore, the problem you state has less to do with taxes, and more to do with class warfare. That is, income disparity but to the working people losing ground and the GOP/crony capitalist class gaining ground with the exporting of our manufacturing base to Communist countries, at the expense of our future.

[bleedingheart]

67. Simple - People voted for a War...now they should pay for it

and meanwhile the US infrastructure needs an overhaul too....but clearly the electorate seems to think the magic money tree will be soon found!

[Cleita]

55. Welcome to Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy.

They don't apply to anyone except the top 10% of the rich in this country. Everyone else is shouldering the burden and it's going to get worse when they time comes that the money he has borrowed has to be paid back.

[Jim__]

57. My problem with your argument is the way you state it.

You state taxes are too high. This is a repuke argument. If you re-state it that we need to cut government spending, it's still a repuke argument. It leaves open the question of how we reduce taxes and how we reduce spending. I think you need to emphasize where we need to cut spending. You do this later in your argument: My problem is all the other waste that my taxes pay for: corporate bailout, subsidies, politicians' cush salaries, the gigantico military & war, pork projects, Bush's Christmas Parties, paranoia, etc..

I think if you emphasize that as your argument, you're not just echoing repuke talking points. And I do believe how you state your argument makes a difference.

[TheFarseer]

59. That kind of stuff will really help on your return

(getting scalped on larger than average paychecks) also a kid, student loan interest, if you participated in a 401(k). Don't be all pissed off until you see your return.

[w8liftinglady]

60. If corporations would just PAY taxes,maybe ours wouldn't be so high

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/c3.pdf

71 corporations who paid no taxes 2001-2003

[ComerPerro]

66. That's why Republicans win. They promise to lower taxes

And then get in office, keep taxes the same for the middle and lower income wage-earners, and cut taxes for themselves. Hell, they throw the middle class an occasional bone. But nothing ever changes.

Yes, taxes are too high on wage-earners. People who actually work.

And Republicans keep getting elected because they keep them high.

[Mr.Green93]

71. Sorry. Nearly 60k a year is rich in my book.

Pay your fair share.

[Cats Against Frist]

72. For a family of three? You MUST be joking.

That's the equivalent of me telling YOU to "get a fucking job." I stated, explicity, in my post that my responsible consumerism costs me hella more than if I just bought cheap shit at the Wal-Mart and the Puke-n-Save.

To give you an example: I could buy my son a knight's castle for Christmas for $13.99 at the Wal-Mart. I just dropped a hundred bucks on the BARGAIN Knight's castle from Playmobil. Why? They're made in GERMANY, not CHINA. You know, a company that pays their workers a living wage, and doesn't offshore somewhere to avoid paying taxes. Same with the "extravagant" used car I bought -- a Volkswagen Jetta Wagon, made in Germany.

My grocery bill for ONE WEEK is $140. I buy all organic meat, dairy, fresh and frozen veggies and fruits, organic bread, spices. There are about two items in my house that aren't organic. Why is this a big deal? Almost all of my food is from LOCAL FARMS or SMALL OPERATIONS that don't pump MSG and HFCS into everything. I'm doing a good thing by not supporting those industries.

Instead of buying a cheap-ass $14.99 made-in-China bag at the box store, I decided to buy a made-in-the-USA $50.00 bag from Tom Bihn. I buy expensive organic loose tobacco, instead of cheap cigarettes. I buy expensive wool from Latin-American co-ops and small American farms and knit it, myself, instead of buying a $3.99 scarf at the Wal-Mart. I have THREE pairs of shoes: one Made-in-America tennis shoe, one Made-in-England Boot, and one Made-in-England Mary Jane.

I don't buy things that are beyond their "use value," for a name brand, but I will go the extra mile to buy things that are responsible, made in the USA or made by people receiving a living wage. I also pay all of my bills on time, even if it straps me, so the vultures can't suck late fees out of me. I don't use credit cards, so the vultures can't suck a million fees out of me. I don't have cable or puffy furniture. But BY GOD if my boyfriend works his ass off, we're going to have the LUXURY of taking care of ourselves, and buying morally and responsibly. I mean -- CAN YOU FUCKING IMAGINE?

I told you -- I've been there -- poor and with a heap of self-righteous indignation, against the middle class. Hell -- I'm middle class, and I hate the middle class. But it sure feels nice to have my health insurance paid up, to not have creditors on my back, to have a yard for my son, to be able to give him a nice Christmas, and to purchase things that are responsible, help the environment, are union-made, and help workers.

I wouldn't be complaining, if I bought all my shit at the national-brand box stores. Even though half the stuff I buy is secondhand, what I purchase new, and the food we eat takes up a lot of green. And come next September, I'll be working my ass off, too, because I decided to pursue four "useless" degrees, instead of going through the IT or MBA mill.

At any rate, I'm not so much angry about having to pay taxes, as having to pay FEDERAL taxes, and having to pay for the Waste-a-Go-Go that is Iraq, and layers of bureaucracy and pork and corporate subsidy. And I'm angry at the middle class for continuing to let the rich screw them, through their purchasing habits. In essence, I'm paying so many fucking taxes for waste, because 300 million people fell asleep at the switch. That makes me irate.

I am not rich. I am not poor, and, like I said: I know that I'm lucky. But not rich. Not by a longshot.