what if these four things are all true? . . .

[OneBlueSky]

temporarily suspending any disbelief you might have, assume for a moment that the following four things are true:

1. The Iraq invasion was based entirely on lies and is illegal under both US and international law.

2. The presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 were stolen.

3. Elements of the Bush administration either facilitated 9/11 or were actually involved in its planning and implementation.

4. BushCo continues to violate US law, the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and international law in a myriad of ways ranging from illegal wars, to torture, to the use of illegal weapons, to violating individual civil rights and liberties of its own citizens and others.

if these four things are indeed true, are we not living in the scariest of times ever? . . .

if all are true, isn't it almost too much to comprehend? . . . much less to accept? . . . and is this why Democrats are, by and large, refusing to acknowledge and deal with what is (if all are true) the greatest crisis this nation has ever faced? . . .

and these are merely the four most critical (imo) issues; there are certainly many, many others . . . picking out any one individually and trying to deal with it is difficult enough . . . but trying to wrap your mind around the entirety of it all is almost impossible if you wish to remain sane . . .

can things really be this bad? . . .

and if they are, is there really any way to make them better? . . .

[upi402]

1. oh yes, of course. Where's our HUAC though?

The citizens of other countries think we've completely lost the plot.
We have had the plot substituted for us, in reality.

[melody]

2. no matter how large the enemy, the non-enemy is always more plentiful

Power is always held in a small number of hands. They can be overcome. All that is holding this monster
back from complete tyranny is the threat of the Democrats and other people who aren't in lockstep with him.
There are plenty of awake, aware people in enough places to make a difference. The ubiquitous "they" brought
down Nixon, who probably came to power under similar circumstances (and certainly propped up by the same
mutant morons). I think we're seeing these people becoming truly vicious because they are in the process of
being cornered.

[rawtribe]

3. It's all trivial..

The the real threat to the U.S.A. is....

The gay agenda!


:sarcasm:

[renate]

5. you are mistaken, my friend

The greatest threat to the United States of America is cashiers saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas!" How else can the godliest nation on earth hope to convert heathens except at the cash register?

Sheesh! Gay marriage is so yesterday--the threat to Christmas is what should have us cowering under our beds!

[rawtribe]

7. I stand corrected

:toast:

[malaise]

26. For the rest of the world

the best joke on the planet is the pretence of some divine god guiding the goodness of America. We know all the rubbish about displaying those great ten commandments so there's really no need to go beyond 'thou shall not steal' since the planet's resouces are stolen on a daily basis and those who dare to resist are threatened with bombs, guns, starvation, invasions etc.

The bottom line is that the US is a more lethal version of the schoolyard bully. Buscho has merely shattered all the myths so many more people in the US and outside are waking up these days.

[Raydawg1234]

4. In America there is this notion that this cannot happen here.......

So even if it is staring them in the face, many people will disregard it, rather than face the unsetling truth.

[renate]

11. in all seriousness, I think you are absolutely right

We were all taught in school that America was founded upon a passionate belief in democracy and equality, and that freedom and democracy are absolutely synonymous with The United States of America. Some people cling to this belief longer than others, especially if they don't have time to read the papers or watch the news.

Fully recognizing that Reality is different from what we've always believed would probably be not unlike finding out as adults, after a blissfully happy childhood, that we were adopted and that our biological parents were hardened criminals. The reality would be that we were related to bad people... in the dream world we'd want to still inhabit, the bad side of the world would have no connection with us.

On a related note, a Marine from near here was killed in Iraq and his body was brought home tonight. The local news interviewed members of his family and they were all talking about how he sacrificed his life "for our freedom." Well, part of me wants to tell them to wake up and be furious that he died for nothing, but a bigger part of me is glad that they have the comfort of that belief.

[Raydawg1234]

13. Yes I guess it's hard to accept that a loved one died for nothing

But, how many more need to die for this to change?

[zanne]

27. You summed it up so well.

My thoughts exactly, except that I've been having a hard time expressing them. I'm going to save your post to re-read every once in awhile. Thanks.

[alittlelark]

6. There is one line in your post that says it all.

"if all are true, isn't it almost too much to comprehend? . . . much less to accept? . . . "

THAT is the problem. It is too difficult for many to deal w/ all of these deeply disturbing issues. They are forced into cognitive dissonance and take the easy road to denial. It took me 3 months after 9-11 to take down my spotlighted flag from my front yard. I was fortunate enough to have family and friends that were able to 'talk me down off the flagpole".

How many Americans have people around them willing to fight for them? Outside of religious types - how many will 'fight for the minds'? We are living in frightening times, and 30 or so percent of us are living in a state of cognitive dissonance - which is in many ways analogous to PTSD.


How to make the situation better? Sunlight - revelation.... truth. As long as ppl are able to have lies fed to them, there will be cog. dis. If we could get our 4th estate to speak the truth we would be able to clear up all this #$^%*&#.

[Al-CIAda]

35. The failure by the 'opposition' to expose the truth early on has allowed

the crimes, treasons, and murder of democracy to proliferate. Allow the stolen election of 2000 and 9/11 happens. Allow 9/11 to happen, and PNAC happens. Allow PNAC to happen and...well, on and on, with mere appearance of 'opposition' left to hoodwink the people. Democracy is dead. Stolen, raped, and plundered, its carcus is presented now like a stuffed/taxidermied museum piece. It only 'appears' to be what it once was, as the rot within takes over.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. You're so right, Al-CIAda

When the "New" Democrats cheered Reagan's military buildup and supported the Contra War and the invasion of Grenada, when they didn't allow testimony on drug running into the Iran-Contra hearings (even arresting a specatator who shouted to the committee to bring it up), when they didn't raise their voices against the invasion of Panama, when Clinton allowed the CIA to support the Taliban...

There were so many points at which the Democrats, who had majorities in one or both houses during these events, could have said, "Hold it right there!" and they didn't.

There were always a few courageous voices on what our DLC shills call "the fringe left." The mainstream didn't listen to them, or even ridiculed them, even though they turned out to be absolutely correct in most cases, and we are paying the price.

In 2002, we had 30,000 people in Portland, Oregon, marching against the invasion of Iraq that was so obviously in the works. We knew that Iraq had had no part in 9/11, that there were no WMDs, and that Saddam had been supported by the U.S. as a buffer against Iran. We knew that the U.S. supported dictators just as bad as Saddam without a qualm. We knew that Iraq was already struggling under sanctions that had harmed the common people tremendously.

At least ten percent of the population of Portland knew that. We were lucky, and our local Congressional Dems and Senator Ron Wyden also opposed the war.

But I know that activists from areas with equally strong anti-war movements begged their Senators by the thousands to vote against the IWR and were rebuffed.

So when we "fringe left" types get steamed up about DINOs, we have good reason. I'm at the point where I have no use for anyone who enables the Republicans, because the past DINOs who enabled the Republicans beginning in 1981 are just as culpable as the Republicans themselves for the current sorry state of this country, particularly because they are supposed to know better.

[AntiFascist]

81. For DINOs and Republicans its all about the economy....

even Clinton shut down the investigation because, otherwise, it would hurt the economy. As long as the economy stays afloat it seems like just about any crimes committed only get a slap on the wrist. If the economy came crashing down, then we might start seeing some justice.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. I know how to treat PTSD a lot more effectively than denial.

At least the PTSD patients want to be treated.

[Raydawg1234]

8. We need a Constitutional Amendment fixing our election system

so that you don't have to be a millionaire to run for office, why do we keep electing these rich ass holes?

Political adds must be restricted except for two weeks before an election, it is THE ONLY WAY to even the playing field. It sounds like in infringement on freedom of speech, yet you have to be rich or have access to lots of money to get tv ads. So why should only the rich have access to the most powerful media? That is the injustice, and that is what we must accomplish, because after Bush is gone, there will be someone else to take his place.

[banana republican]

61. What good is an ammendment when the POTUS

says the constitution is nothing but a peice of paper... Hitler said the same thig about some of his treaties...

Ithink we may have gone beyond the pale....

[texpatriot2004]

9. I can believe all four nm

[upi402]

10. It takes $ to fool people, but they're easy to fool

and the religious are exploited - the same path that history shows they take to control the masses into doing the will of the money elites.

[mwb970]

23. Sadly, the religious are the easiest to fool.

They're so used to believing in things that seem impossible that believing that Bush is a Great Leader is hardly a stretch. Most of them could believe that and a dozen other crazy things before breakfast! Especially if they heard it bellowed by Rush.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. Not all religious people

Think of the nuns protesting down at Guantanamo, or the leaders of the mainline Christian denominations who issued a joint statement against the Iraq War.

[donheld]

12. The only one, #3, is even questionable

Yes it's extremely troubling, but far from unfathomable for me. I agree it is unfathomable for most americans but they had better wake up.

[Kablooie]

14. Or maybe Plato was right.

It's inevitable that a democracy degrades into a tyranny.

Then it all makes sense.

There!

[punpirate]

15. Consider your four assertions...

... in the following terms. The recent outcry about torture is only because American involvement has been exposed. It's actually been going on for decades, but with some plausible deniability--in Latin America with the training provided by the CIA and the School of the Americas.

The conditions for every contemporary war fought by the United States (with the possible exception of the Korean war) was created by the United States. Vietnam? Eisenhower sent in the CIA to destabilize both North and South and to wreck the chances of the 1956 elections. Afghanistan? A war fought by proxy against the Soviets, whom we lured into a trap, and which, in turn, created the seeds of the modern-day terrorism. Grenada? An unnecessary invasion which was completely hidden from the press. Panama? That may be the first time we've ever invaded another country in which we already had military bases. The Gulf War? James Baker suckered Hussein into invading Kuwait, and George Bush lied to the Saudis to get them to agree to permanent US bases on Saudi soil, inflaming the fundamentalists to terrorism using techniques they'd learned from the CIA in Afghanistan. Former Yugoslavia and Kosovo? A peacekeeping mission, or a CIA-furthered economic balkanization of the region, aided by heavy bombardment from the air? Afghanistan? That invasion was being planned five months before September 11th. The Taliban had signed a pipeline deal with an Argentinian firm, and the only way to break the deal was to destroy the government that made it.

Elections have been stolen, in other ways, in other times, too. Our own former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court participated in voter suppression in Arizona.

What is different today from the last several decades is that these actions are so brazen, so out in the open, and that they come at precisely the time that one party has achieved its ambition of controlling all branches of government. But, it's been going on all along. It has.

[omega minimo]

39. This is why 25 years of Reagan's Big Lie matter

"What is different today from the last several decades is that these actions are so brazen, so out in the open, and that they come at precisely the time that one party has achieved its ambition of controlling all branches of government. But, it's been going on all along. It has."

Others here are mentioning the sense of suspended disbelief, the cognitive dissonance.... THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION have been aware that the more TPTB get away with, the more TPTB can get away with the Next Time. We have gone off the scale of any semblance to reason and reality a LONG time ago. And the American people have been eatin it up and swallowing a pack of BLATANT lies for 25 years. Everyone wants to put a finger on a different point in the timeline of When It All Started. The truth is, Ronald Reagan's "Landslide" and the Inaugural split-screen announcement of the release of the Iran hostages was the big FUCK YOU middle finger to the American people and ever since, the gullibility and denial bubble has been pushed further and further and further and further..........................................and even here today, people think "we'll survive this we always do our system people are waking up s-l-o-w-l-y blah blah blah."

from Senator post down below:

"The contract generally known as the US Constitution was put into breach on January 6th, 2001.

"It was this overruling of the will of the (former) American People that left us open to the 9-11 attack, which was a far less important event compared with the election theft. It simply allowed the 21st Century Neo-Fascists to have their "Reichstag fire" to consolitdate control. The more important part was that the only global force for good in the past several decades, the public opinion of the American People, was taken out of the equation."

"...the only global force for good in the past several decades, the public opinion of the American People, was taken out of the equation."

Taken out of the equation with the willing complicity, gullibility and ignorance of many Americans. People would always say, "people don't care until it affects them." Well, at what point DO PEOPLE THINK IT REALLY AFFECTS THEM? The Supreme Court 2000 Selection didn't do it; 9-11 didn't really wake people up that their government can/will not protect them; the 2004 Selection didn't do it; Katrina didn't do it; even the supposed demarcation of When They Can't Fill Up The FUV didn't really do it!

This is why the cognitive dissonance, the denial, the Big Lie, the gullibility, the ignorance, the catapulting of information management, the brain-washing and mind-fucking of the past 25 years really do matter. This is where the true battle starts.

[omega minimo]

58. ...and the silence is deafening...................

.......
...............
.........
.....................
:boring:

[Beam Me Up]

53. I agree. This isn't something new.

One could even go so far as to say that Western Civilization is inherently fascist. Perhaps all civilizations are, I don't know. But in any case, this is where we are and this is what we're up against now.

I also happen to believe that there are real alternatives, real POSSIBLE alternatives, but we're going to have to get outside of the conceptual political boxes we've accepted as the methodologies for significant social, political and economic change. I can't articulate what I 'sense' or 'envision' very clearly because I'm not a political scientist or an economist--I'm just a 'dumb artist' (what the hell could I know anyway?). But I've watched throughout my lifetime and seen, over and over again, that I was right about things. I'm sure I'm right about this as well. There is more going on here than meets the eye. Perhaps that is just 'wishful thinking' but obviously I don't think so. I think there is a crack in the social fabric through which something utterly new could appear if we only knew how to give it birth. That is to say, IN OURSELVES. If it is going to come into being, it must come into being THROUGH us.

[raccoon]

71. that's very believable, but can you give us a source?

"The Taliban had signed a pipeline deal with an Argentinian firm, and the only way to break the deal was to destroy the government that made it."

[punpirate]

72. Okay, it's a bit convoluted...

... but is represented by cases filed in court over a deal for a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan (which, of necessity, would cross Afghanistan). The first was an interference suit filed by Bridas against UNOCAL in 1996. In 2000, UNOCAL won a summary judgment claiming that the local laws (of Turkmenistan and Afghanistan) just didn't apply:

http://www.susmangodfrey.com/practice/practice_foreign.html

Part of that argument, certainly, was that the Taliban government of Afghanistan was not a legitimate government (only three countries in the world recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan at the time).

Bridas refiled the case on a different basis (arbitration dispute), and won a $500 million judgment in district court and the ruling was upheld in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in Sept., 2003:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/5th/0220929cv0p.pdf

The upshot of it all was that Bridas says it had made a deal with the Taliban and UNOCAL attempted to obstruct that deal through the consortium company created for the deal, Turkmeneft. Remember that it was in December, 1997, that UNOCAL invited the Taliban to Houston to talk about the pipeline deal--UNOCAL was still attempting to sway the Taliban, even though the case on their interference was being adjudicated. UNOCAL did not prevail with the Taliban, but Bridas obviously wasn't going to pursue any actual work until the court cases were resolved.

By then, Bush was in office, and it was through the spring and summer of 2001 that the Bushies were still negotiating with the Taliban (and bribing them, for practical purposes, with in-kind payments ostensibly for reducing opium production), essentially on UNOCAL's behalf, and it was, during that time that, according to the authors of bin Laden: The Forbidden Truth, the Bushies made the "carpet of gold" or "carpet of bombs" remark to the Taliban. Shortly after 9/11, the BBC reported that a Pakistani minister said he was told that plans were already underway for an invasion of Afghanistan (with its object to remove the Taliban from power), due to occur in mid-October:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm

So, putting all those things together, I would say it's a fair assertion to make. It might be yet another reason why the Bushies are so determined not to let the public see any of the deliberations of Cheney's energy task force. Would this administration overthrow another government for the sake of US multinational oil profits? Uh, does a bear....?

Cheers.

[raccoon]

75. Makes sense.

"It might be yet another reason why the Bushies are so determined not to let the public see any of the deliberations of Cheney's energy task force. "

Probably one of the main reasons.

Thanks a lot.

[Syrinx]

16. If? n/t

[Tsiyu]

17. This nation has faced worse

and gluttons have always and will always seek to exploit it.

Greedy people killed, imprisoned, enslaved and marginalized the people whom they found here.

Insatiable people wiped out the elk in the East and the buffalo in the West. They shaved mountains bald and turned prairies into dustbowls. They spewed soot into the air and made children work twelve hour days for pennies.

They bought and sold humans as if there were no god to be feared; they created schemes to control mass numbers of lives and then made those lives as pitiful as they possibly could make them.

Wicked, twisted, sad little people - the kind who love to see others suffer and stumble - have been a part of humanity as long as there has been humanity I would imagine. They exist in every place on this earth.

The wheels turn very slowly in America. Just keep pushing them where you want them to go.

Visualize change. :)

[mogster]

18. Number 1 is certain, number 2 is probable, number 3 is concievable ..

Number 4 is obvious.

All in all, this pretty much sums up the mess of the modern times.

There is a way to make all this go away; stick to our guns and keep pounding the truth out.
I'd say things are looking far better than just one year ago, thanks to Cindy Sheehan and other people who stands up and asks questions.

And of course all of the marvellous DU'ers :toast:

[DaveColorado]

19. Hey at least queers can't get married!

:sarcasm:

[madeline_con]

31. It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Homophobes are such good citizens.

Atheists aren't citizens at all, according to our fearless leader.

Why do I hate America???

[LunaC]

20. IF....?

They ARE all true which is why some of us have been jumping up and down with our hair on fire trying to get the attention of our Dem "leaders" and the media to put a STOP to it all!

Yes, it's absolutely frightening which is why I'm doing all I can to channel my energy into making the needed changes. It's a lonely battle and sometimes it seems futile but to do nothing would overwhelm me with depression.

[Al-CIAda]

36. -with our hair on fire trying to get the attention of our Dem "leaders" -

Yes sir...my thoughts as well. Where is the so-called 'opposition' or leaders who will tell the truth on these matters?

[LunaC]

42. How do we get their attention and motivate them?

How hard would it be for them to say "Hey people...look over here....it's the PNAC...they're the cause of all this mayhem!" Saying PNAC out loud would answer a helluva' lot of questions yet they dance around the issue. Why? WHY?

[Beam Me Up]

55. Here's my answer to that WHY? question

based on absolutely nothing but my own opinion:

1) Many of the congress critters have been compromised one way and another--money, sex, drugs--all the usual human foibles.

2) Some of them are completely clueless and have no clearer picture of what is going on than the average man or woman in the street.

3) Some of them are terrified--and well they should be. How easy is it to down a plane or rev up the mind of an already unbalanced citizen?

5) A few of them know what is going on and are trying their best to intelligently survive the situation and change it.

But here is the one thing I believe is most important: A lack of VISION for what is humanly possible OUTSIDE the usual political framework. This is the real killer as it applies not only to Democrats holding office but the vast majority of people both in this country and abroad. People still think in limited ways about what is POSSIBLE. The truth is, we have MUCH more power than we usually know and CAN change not only ourselves but the whole world. All we have to do is share a common vision and move together towards it. Not that we won't meet resistance along the way, for certainly we will. But that doesn't mean we can't go there.

[LunaC]

60. It's the Vision thing most of all

You made some valid points and I think fear and trying to intelligently survive are the strongest but beyond that you've nailed it with the Vision perspective...they're so caught up in the Fight and the same-old/same-old, they can't see beyond it.

Thanks for answering the burning question that's perplexed me for awhile and for the lively repartee...too many posts are of the hit and run variety.

Namaste.

[Usrename]

63. Nice answer.

I think you got your opinion correct. You get an A+

[applegrove]

21. They won the 2004 election on fear. For sure they stole hearts & minds.

That is indeed too scary for some to understand - because it means they really do have some power & could do it again.

Thinking diebold machines massively switched votes simply gives you and out "we'll catch the bad guys - and throw them in jail". They are much more sophisticated than that. They steal hearts and minds like Candy from a baby. The only way to win is for most Americans to get wise and discerning and to learn how to ignore the bullship that surrounds them.

That is the only way.

[Senator]

22. This is what "kinder, gentler" Fascism looks like

Fascism -- monarchism -- theocracy -- it's all the same thing.

A belief that a minority has the right to rule a majority*. It matters little if it's a master race, a theocracy, a family dynasty, a ruling class, or the current DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy.

This is what the watershed stolen election of 2000 was all about. There was zero attention paid to the Will of the People of Florida and the nation. The result of the vote (not the vote count**) was well known shortly after the election when the uncounted ballots were extrapolated by precinct, and Gore won FL by tens of thousands. Any ethical, moral, real American would have conceded to Gore at that point. Any ethical, moral, real American congress would have disallowed such suspect electoral votes.

The contract generally known as the US Constitution was put into breach on January 6th, 2001.

It was this overruling of the will of the (former) American People that left us open to the 9-11 attack, which was a far less important event compared with the election theft. It simply allowed the 21st Century Neo-Fascists to have their "Reichstag fire" to consolitdate control.

The more important part was that the only global force for good in the past several decades, the public opinion of the American People, was taken out of the equation. Which is why prior to the election theft we could stop plane-crashing over the Pacific at the Millenium with help from Jordanian Intelligence, and after... well, not so much. We had lost our moral ascendency, our place as the court of last resort.

Certainly this is a "kinder, gentler" fascism. But did you expect goose-stepping and racial hate speech? It's much more efficient to simply scream "Mushroom clouds in 45 minutes!!" through every Euphemedia outlet in order to terrorize*** a population into compliance (20 guys with boxcutters pales in comparision, doesn't it?).

But make no mistake, it is fascism pure and simple.

_________
* -- "After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society" - Benito Mussolini 1932

** -- "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decided everything." -- Josef Stalin (echoed by Pol Pot, Bushes, Scalia, Rehnquist, etc...)

*** -- Yes, this was The Most Heinous Act of Terrorism in History.

-
www.january6th.org

[tlsmith1963]

24. This is Why I Wish The Neocons Would Make a Mistake

So these apathetic idiots around me would see the truth. I want the neocons to make a mistake that would reveal their true intentions to the whole country. Then, we could do something to stop them. I wish for this every day. I'm tired of living like this, wondering when the other shoe is going to drop.

Tammy

[tavalon]

28. They've made many

and still the sheeple sleep.

It's frustrating but there is nothing to do but keep fighting against these evil fascists (that's an oxymoron, isn't it?).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. My DREAM, my absolute DREAM scenario would be Bush and Cheney

caught on a live CNN or FOX mike (or hey, why not both?) making some statement that would be sure to offend their supporters, a la Dusty Rhodes in A Face in the Crowd.

[smoogatz]

25. We've survived great crises in the past.

The Great Depression, WWII, the Civil War, and the coup d'etat of which the assassination of JFK was the most public component. I think we'll survive this one, too, but our national power and wealth, and our international stature will be much diminished. The criminal gang now in control of the U.S. government is bent on raiding the national treasury, and their notion of governing is to stay in power at all costs. It won't be easy, getting rid of them.

[Greyhound]

38. Though the nation may survive (and I have many doubts about even that)

sadly, many, many, of us won't. Suicide is way up, Murder is up, untold thousands have already perished on the Gulf Coast, Seniors will drop like flies, and if the sheeple do muster the courage to demand change, we will the naked power of this cabal. Dog it's depressing. :cry:

[Paradise]

29. does this:

"When asked for estimates on how long the president would travel the country to appear before military audiences, White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card noted that victory could take years to achieve."

from this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/12/10_bush.html

answer answer any of your questions?

[MissWaverly]

30. The Emprire Strikes Back

brought to a country near you courtesy of the Iran Contra scoundrels who were all pardoned.

[electron_blue]

32. I wonder about this on an almost daily basis, and ask myself

what I should be doing about this? Seems to me the most important thing is to get our election process back. Get rid of unaccountable voting practices. I believe they (Bush et al.) would not have gotten as far as they have if the election process proceeded as it should have. I am sure there will be extreme resistance to efforts to remove the Diebold/Diebold-like machines that are in place now. I bet there is an iron grip on them by Bushies.

A quick fix to that may be to encourage hackers to hack into the Diebolds and dramatically change the elctions in some ludicrous way so as to wake up ALL Americans. Just thinking out loud here, I don't know any hackers...

One thing is certain - w/o fixing the election problems, there is no point in attacking the other serious problems the country is in at the moment.

[BamaBecky]

51. All 4 are true - and I also contemplate this daily

I have decided to work locally - my corner of the world - everybody else should do likewise!

Bama

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Look at it this way.

Clinton was Star Wars. * is Empire Strikes Back.

But fear not friend, Return of the Jedi will come out soon....

:)

[frazzledmom]

40. Yes but if it plays out like Star Wars that means

that one of the Neo's is going to have to turn from the darkside and kill his master. I don't see that happening here.

[bloom]

34. I don't know...

how to make things better - esp. when there is a minority of elected Democrats who are already a minority who "get it".


"Past administrations tactfully kept their "black ops" secret; the crimes were sanctioned but they were practiced in the shadows, officially denied and condemned. The Bush Administration has broken this deal: Post-9/11, it demanded the right to torture without shame, legitimized by new definitions and new laws....

For those nervously wondering if it is time to start using alarmist words like totalitarianism, this shift is of huge significance. When torture is covertly practiced but officially and legally repudiated, there is still the hope that if atrocities are exposed, justice could prevail. When torture is pseudo-legal and when those responsible merely deny that it is torture, what dies is what Hannah Arendt called "the juridical person in man"; soon enough, victims no longer bother to search for justice, so sure are they of the futility (and danger) of that quest. This impunity is a mass version of what happens inside the torture chamber, when prisoners are told they can scream all they want because no one can hear them and no one is going to save them."


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x178578

[Beam Me Up]

37. There is no doubt in my mind. They are ALL true.

...knowledge brings responsibility. If we acknowledge that an inner circle of ruling elites controls the world's most powerful military and intelligence system; controls the international banking system; controls the most effective and far-reaching propaganda network in history; controls all three branches of government in the world's only superpower; and controls the technology that counts the people's votes, we might be then forced to conclude that we don't live in a particularly democratic system. And then voting and making contributions and trying to stay informed wouldn't be enough. Because then the duty of citizenship would go beyond serving as a loyal opposition, to serving as a "loyal resistance"—like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, except that in this case the resistance to fascism would be on the side of the national ideals, rather than the government; and a violent insurgency would not only play into the empire's hands, it would be doomed from the start.

Forming a nonviolent resistance movement, on the other hand, might mean forsaking some middle class comfort, and it would doubtless require a lot of work. It would mean educating ourselves and others about the nature of the truly apocalyptic beast we face. It would mean organizing at the most basic neighborhood level, face to face. (We cannot put our trust in the empire's technology.) It would mean reaching across turf lines and transcending single-issue politics, forming coalitions and sharing data and names and strategies, and applying energy at every level of government, local to global. It would also probably mean civil disobedience, at a time when the Bush regime is starting to classify that action as "terrorism." In the end, it may mean organizing a progressive confederacy to govern ourselves, just as our revolutionary founders formed the Continental Congress. It would mean being wise as serpents, and gentle as doves.

It would be a lot of work. It would also require critical mass. A paradigm shift.

Paranoid Shift

[OneBlueSky]

47. your link doesn't work . . . but I found one that does . . .

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_203.shtml

[Beam Me Up]

49. Right OBS!

:hi:

[European Socialist]

41. And this is why I wake up in the middle of the night horriby depressed.

Thanks for compressing it down to a page to show others.

[Al-CIAda]

43. .

[yurbud]

44. I heard an interview with an American tortured by Saudis...

the least Democratic country in the world.

He was sure he was going to be killed, but the protests and complaints about his captivity created just enough of a ruckus to embarass his captors into releasing him.

There is a comfort zone of public inattention and apathy that a government needs to do anything.

The level of attention and action doesn't have to rise to a revolution to scare them off.

The Bushies may be ham-handed evil extremists, but the people and corporations they serve are cold-blooded pragmatists. As opposition to Bush rises, they will eventually give him up, and turn down the crime and corruption to a level we will ignore.

With the fall of the Soviet Union, they got giddy with power, thinking there was no one left to oppose them, so they pulled out the long knives and openly turned on us, thinking we would take it like sheep. They were only partly right.

[BlueEyedSon]

45. what do you mean "if"...?

:evilgrin:

[0rganism]

46. So let us not talk falsely now/The hour’s getting late

The situation is clear.

The solution is not.

It took decades for the rightwing to establish its current stranglehold on society, even though the seeds for their dominance had been planted and nurtured on this continent for centuries.

We cannot expect our extrication from this nightmare to be quick or easy. It, too, will likely take decades, even though the seeds of freedom have also been sown and nurtured for centuries.

Of one thing I am absolutely certain: many more people will die fighting this battle before it ends. Freedom, justice, and equality always come with a price to be paid in blood, sweat, and tears, prior to receipt, with no warranty for parts and labor. We have not paid the price in many years, ergo we gaze longingly upon them from within our gilded cages, thinking them to be a birthright deprived us when in fact they are the greatest of luxuries for which every generation must have the responsibility of learning to upgrade and maintain lest they fall into disrepair and decay from within.

One advantage rightwing fascists have over us in this marketplace is the price for their values (restriction, disenfranchisement, and oppression) can be paid with the blood, sweat, and tears of others. What we seek can only be purchased with our own currency.

[Pithy Cherub]

54. Eloquence is thy name!

It is the day before Rome/America burned and the people are believing they are safe in the hands of the jailers. To truly awaken requires a price that is beyond my imagination after all that has gone before.

[specimenfred1984]

48. Propaganda and Brainwashing are Very Real

They're a science being practiced daily by everyone from psy ops to your local tv advertisers. We as a culture have been sold a product, the product is the American image we all carry with us. That image is deeply imbedded in our conscious and subconscious selves and it's been sold to us for well over 100 years.

The remedy for propaganda is truth, a constant repetition of truth. Many people are so brainwashed they'll never even hear the truth without their minds being opened by themselves and the idea that it can be opened. Our propaganda culture works hard to keep people dumb, they're much more easy to manipulate that way. And, we are constantly bombarded with the idea of conformity in our propaganda, it's easy to keep people dumb if they believe the way they should think has already been decided for them.

Fortunately for our entire country, propaganda must have an element of truth to it for it to be believed and the current batch of lies we've been sold is full of holes. There were no WMD in Iraq prior to our invasion, we don't know who caused 9-11, we do know the elections were flawed and we do know our country and many of our leaders are guilty of war crimes.

The truth has been exposed, we just need to keep repeating it.

[leftofthedial]

52. bingo

bingo, bingo and bingo

[Kansas Wyatt]

56. Pretty small "if," but I'll give a try.

For a long time now, I have had a thought that the top Democrats do know what is really going on with the Bush Cabal and the theft of our country. Which obviously leads to another question, about why they would remain silent on it. Here are some thoughts on why the Democrats would remain silent:

1) They have been made aware that certain accidents, were not really accidents, and have been intimidated about bringing up certain questions that the 'Powers That Be' would not want brought up.

2) Some may think it is wrong, but they are aware they would be destroyed and accept "help" with their own positions.

3) A lot of them may know, but if this were ever uncovered and the truth about it was told, there would be severe ramifications for the United States and it's position in the World. For example:

A) The U.S. may be reduced to the same standing of rogue nations we have conquered and demonized in the past. And be made to pay reparations.

B) Our currency would be de-valued, and our markets would fail.

C) Our government would self destruct and our security could be threatened by foreign nations that rival us to turn over the guilty leaders and officials.

D) They may have to deal with American citizens revolting against a government that has broken a sacred trust.

E) Then there may have been a lot more secrets that the government didn't want it's citizens knowing, that would come out.

F)They may feel that we would enter a very dismal unprecedented turmoil for our country, in which over 200 years of history would come to an end.

My guess would be a combination of all of the above, with a deciding factor on #3.

[Beam Me Up]

66. Good analysis. I see it very much the same way. There is a lot at stake

here and it isn't all just about the United States. Ultimately it is about what it means to be human and alive.

[OneBlueSky]

67. I think you're spot on . . .

there WILL be severe ramifications for the nation when all of this information is finally accepted as true by the general public . . .

and as part of the political establishment, elected Democrats have just as much stake in preserving the system that offords them so much privilege as do Republicans . . .

it's going to take someone from outside politics -- someone who is respected for his/her integrity and who is willing to tell the whole truth -- to change this country's direction . . . which is why I continue to believe that a presidential candidate who is a non-politician may well be our best be for 2008 . . . (assuming, of course, that something can be done in the interim to fix the e-voting problem) . . .

[Yupster]

57. We'll find out soon enough because

no government as corrupt and evil as the one you describe will ever step down from power. In fact, it's hard to believe one that evil would allow its opponents to post their criticisms so openly.

[Beam Me Up]

64. It would seem counter intuitive, wouldn't it?

And it can give one pause--or not.

[okieinpain]

59. the scariest part you didn't even list. the media is owned by the

corporations.

[Clara T]

62. A Paranoid Shift Indeed

And if done by the political consumer it would entail a level of discomfort most would want to experience.


From article:
"That the 2000 presidential election was deliberately stolen; that the pro-Bush/anti-Gore bias in the corporate media had spiked markedly in the last three weeks of the campaign; that corporate media were then virtually silent about the Florida recount; and that the Bush 2000 team had planned to challenge the legitimacy of the election if George W had won the popular, but lost the electoral vote -- exactly what happened to Gore -- is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That the intelligence about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction was deceptively “cooked” by the Bush administration; that anybody paying attention to people like former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter, knew before the invasion that the weapons were a hoax; and that American forces in Iraq today are applying the same brutal counterinsurgency tactics pioneered in Central America in the 1980s, under the direct supervision of then-Vice President George HW Bush, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That “Rebuilding America’s Defenses,” the Project for a New American Century’s 2000 report, and “The Grand Chessboard,” a book published a few years earlier by Trilateral Commission co-founder Zbigniew Brzezinski, both recommended a more robust and imperial US military presence in the oil basin of the Middle East and the Caspian region; and that both also suggested that American public support for this energy crusade would depend on public response to a new “Pearl Harbor,” is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That, in the 1960s, the Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously approved a plan called “Operation Northwoods,” to stage terrorist attacks on American soil that could be used to justify an invasion of Cuba; and that there is currently an office in the Pentagon whose function is to instigate terrorist attacks that could be used to justify future strategically-desired military responses, is not a “theory.” It’s fact."

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_203.shtml

[The Judged]

65. Will the Congressional Super Majority will be here in 2006?

Will the "Strict Constitutional Constructionist" majority in the SCOTUS be in place before then?

If so, then what should we expect next?

[lies and propaganda]

68. i dont have to suspend anything

i live everyday knowing these four things, along with WAY too much other shit, happen here or in our name every minute.

[OneBlueSky]

69. thank you all for your excellent contributions to this thread . . .

all I tried to do was capsulize the main features of our crisis . . . many of us are working hard on individual pieces, but no one is yet addressing the totality of the threat we face . . .

at some point, we're going to have to address that totality -- which is far greater than the sum of its parts . . .

I continue to believe that such a sea change will not come from within the political establishment -- all of whom (Republicans and Democrats) have a vested interest in maintaining a status quo that provides them with a vast array of benefits . . .

which is why I also continue to believe that a non-politician would be our best choice as a presidential candidate in 2008 . . . (assuming, of course, that there ARE elections in 2008, and that they're no longer controlled by Republicans and their corporate sponsors) . . .

[Beam Me Up]

76. Thank you, OBS, for generating this thread and giving us an opportunity

to discuss these important issues.

I agree--we need to be able to discern the 'big picture'. I also believe we need to envision workable alternatives in the midst of the real world we inhabit. People need hope for a truly better future, not merely fear of 'a war that will not end in our lifetimes' (however short or long they may be!).

Given what we fear ma be true, what is possible? Perhaps that could be the center point of a different thread.

[Al-CIAda]

70. .

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. When the NeoCons took control of the Government on 12/13/2000....

...with the help of the U. S. Supreme Court, that's when I knew things were going to go downhill in a hurry. I remember telling some of my GOP rightwing co-workers that we would be in a war within two years, one way or the other. They laughed at me then...I wonder what they're thinking now?

And yes, things are REALLY that bad, and they are going to get worse.

[Al-CIAda]

77. .

[kma3346]

80. Kick

:kick: