In the US the Death Penalty is inherently unfair, hypocritical and racist

[MrScorpio]

And in this country ALWAYS about politics and vengeance and NEVER about public safety and justice.

It's about time we join the rest of the civilized world and do away with it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. But it keeps the poor in line!

And minorities!

Rich whites...not so much.

[LincolnMcGrath]

28. True 'dat!

[Maat]

2. I quite agree, Sir!

I've felt this way for many years!

[LeftyMom]

3. Absolutely.

State-sponsored human sacrifice to keep fear at bay is really not appropriate for a supposedly evolved society.

[madeline_con]

5. For real, which is more dangerous....

a murderer who's loose, or one who's dead?

[LeftyMom]

8. That's a hell of a strawman.

When's the last time a death-row level inmate got lose? I don't recall that it's happened in my lifetime.

[Montauk6]

25. Actually, wasn't there a death-row escapee in the news within the last

two weeks? I just vaguely remember hearing on the news that he'd been captured.

Other than that, there WAS that incident, a long time ago, at the Mos Eisley tavern when a young man ordering a drink was apparently confronted by a two guys with death sentences in 12 galaxies.

[mcctatas]

12. That's not an intellectually honest choice...

loose or dead are not the options. Incarcerated for life is as safe as dead and then we don't run the risk of getting it wrong. If the death penalty was fairly applied to rich white boys who rape and kill a woman in Central Park as well as poor blacks and minorities it would still be wrong. (I hate disagreeing with you, I usually love everything you have to say:toast:)

[MrScorpio]

13. Murderers convicted and sentenced to prison for life are no longer loose

And merely because one escapes doesn't necessarily mean that that person could kill again.

An escaped burglar could escape prison and could otherwise murder while escaped. Does that mean you would execute convicted burglars as well?

But when a prosecutor stakes his or her reputation and worth for reelection on how many lives her or she has taken in an unfair process, I think that public safety is not at the top of his or her parities.

[madeline_con]

19. An escapee would be more likely to...

kill someone on the outside than one who's locked up.


The burglar question is just silly. Why execute a guy for breaking and entering? It's not what the person MIGHT do, but what the person DID.

I agree about the prosecutor who thinks notches in the belt are a way to get elected. Isn't that the public's fault, though?

[MrScorpio]

24. I think that you need to re-word your first statement...

Escapees would, of course, be able to kill someone (If they deemed to) on the outside than and in prison, but that's because escapees AREN'T in prison, are they?

But my point stands. It's not an automatic given that escaped convicted killer would kill. That person may be captured immediately, the person may not have the opportunity to kill, the person may not have and incentive to kill. An escapee killing on the outside is not a given.

On the other hand ANY escapee, regardless of their crime, could kill under the right set of circumstances. It is not a danger exclusive to convicted killers.

Executing them would not necessarily eliminate this possibility, nor would their hypothetical escape otherwise manifest it.

[madeline_con]

30. I hate to use the cliches, but...

Executing killers does prevent them from killing again.

It does eliminate the possibility.

[MrScorpio]

32. SO would keeping them behind bars until their natural ends

It's not an absolute reason for application of the DP

[prolesunited]

35. You love cliches

They form the basis for all of your debating points. Too bad you don't give the same weight to actual facts.

[enigmatic]

27. exactly

"But when a prosecutor stakes his or her reputation and worth for reelection on how many lives her or she has taken in an unfair process, I think that public safety is not at the top of his or her parities."

Have you heard of the Steven Truscott case? This guy has been through a nightmare:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/education/spotlight/issue_59/

http://www.statementanalysis.com/truscott/

http://www.randomhouse.ca/features/steventruscott/home.html

I've always been against the DP; it's the right thing to do.

[XemaSab]

9. Check PM's

:)

[LeftyMom]

10. I got nothin. Type faster.

;)

[XemaSab]

11. Well check again!

:o

[madeline_con]

4. "racist" ???

I thought studies showed white guys were more likely to be psycho. :shrug:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

14. Ah, but you're much much more likely to get the DP if you kill a white guy

Check out the stats

[mcctatas]

15. And less likely to be put to death by the state...

the highest rate of death sentences are handed down to African Americans who kill white's. I just wrote a huge research paper on this topic and the numbers don't lie.

[rustydog]

6. Hear hear! I agree

[supernova]

7. I heartily agree, and I'll add

was there ever a time when the DP was applied fairly, without bias and with 100% proven guilt?

I don't think so.

[not systems]

16. Yes...

abolishing the DP is the first step toward becoming a civilized country.

Sadly as this boards poster shows we have a long way to go to even
start toward a non violent society.

When the left is this right the middle is far right and the right is fascist.

The love of the DP just joins with the love of war and the hatred of the poor that
we are famous for as a country.

[XemaSab]

17. Even without the playing of the race card

it's definitely classist.

Public defenders are really about the luck of the draw, and even middle class defendants can usually hire a private attorney. There are WAY too many stories out there about Public Defenders being asleep during death penalty trials....

I don't think Tookie is a good person, but the death penalty is too expensive, too arbitrary, and too cruel to continue!

We need to join the rest of the civilized world and abolish the death penalty!

[MrScorpio]

18. You have just reinforced my notion of DP unfairness

The poorest defendants have to depend on Public Defenders, who are overwhelmingly ill equipped to handle DP cases.

Also Public defense is being systematically underfunded throughout the country.

The presumption of innocence is now a joke, and on top of that, the writ of Habeas Corpus is also being under minded in the name of looking decisive. Its also being sacrificed in the name of politics.

The only real defense that a DP defendant has is a fat bank roll to hire a slick lawyer.

Class is at the center of the debate.

[Err]

20. I'm totally against the death penalty.

I hate it. There's no need for it.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

21. Mr. Scorpio, I agree with your sentiments 100%.

Bottom line for me: "Thou shalt not kill" or as my Irish-born grandmother told me years ago, "Only God has the right to take a person's life".

[Bombero1956]

23. from the Death Penalty Information Center

When sentencing standards fail to adequately guide sentencers, decision-makers may fall back on conscious or unconscious prejudices about who are the worst kinds of criminals or who are the more sympathetic victims. Modern studies of the death penalty continue to find a correlation between sentencing and race. The studies consistently show that those who kill white victims are much more likely to receive the death penalty than those who kill black victims. Racial disparities in sentencing and executions suggest that race plays a role in the application of the death penalty. The quality of legal representation is related to the arbitrary application of the death penalty in that inadequate representation contributes to mistakes in capital sentencing.

After 20 years on (the) high court, I have to acknowledge that serious questions are being raised about whether the death penalty is being fairly administered in this country. Perhaps it’s time to look at minimum standards for appointed counsel in death cases and adequate compensation for appointed counsel when they are used.

- Justice Sandra Day O’Connor (2001)

* In Washington state, one-fifth of the 84 people who have faced execution in the past 20 years were represented by lawyers who had been, or were later, disbarred, suspended or arrested. (Overall, the state’s disbarment rate for attorneys is less than 1%.) (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Aug. 6-8, 2001).

* In North Carolina, at least 16 death row inmates, including 3 who were executed, were represented by lawyers who have been disbarred or disciplined for unethical or criminal conduct. (Charlotte Observer, Sept. 9, 2000).

* In Texas, about one in four death row inmates has been defended by lawyers who have been reprimanded, placed on probation, suspended or banned from practicing law by the State Bar. (Dallas Morning News, Sept. 10, 2000).

* In Alabama, about 40 of the approximately 185 death row inmates – some within five months of filing deadlines for state appeals – do not have counsel. (N.Y. Times, July 5, 2001).

[TreasonousBastard]

22. Just a few of the organizations...

I've been involved with over the years, and there's lots more.

They need support, so hitch yer wagons to at least one of them and go for the ride.



Death Penalty Information Center
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

People of Faith Against the Death Penalty
http://www.pfadp.org/

New Jerseyans for Alternatives to the Death Penalty
http://www.njadp.org/

Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation
http://www.mvfr.org/

Citizens United for Alternatives to the Death Penalty
http://www.cuadp.org/

American Friends Service Committee
http://www.afsc.org/issues/issueindex.htm#criminal

Journey of Hope
http://www.journeyofhope.org/pages/index.htm

[Maat]

37. Will do - and thanks (n/t).

[UrbScotty]

26. The death penalty is like that anyway.

Wherever, whenever, however.

It's immoral and un-Christian. Period.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Not just the DP.

Our current judicial system has some serious problems. The DP is just one example. The adjudication process is a huge mess. If you have enough money, you can get all the right experts and can skate on just about any charge. The major problem with our judicial system is not racism, but classism. Racism certainly exists, but so does anti-religion-ism (new word?), sexism, even lookism (if you are a hot man or woman, you are more likely to be found innocent). All of these things have been studied and are always interesting to read.

I am against the DP because it is not a real punishment (how does one punish the dead?). I am against it because it is against my own personal values. However, I don't believe most pro-DP see it as vengeance. A real stroke of vengeance would be to let the victim(s) family(ies) do the deed. The DP also just creates more victims, because of even the most heinous people, they have people who love them too!

[bettyellen]

31. True, and recommended.

:bravo:

[chknltl]

33. I must side with MrScorpio for these 3 reasons:

Those who have been convicted of murder have this conviction because they or their lawyer lost the debate. Does this mean that they are not guilty? I HOPE that those who got convicted ARE guilty but hope and certainty are two different things. We are all well aware that there are criminals who get off scott free because their lawyer "won" the debate, well there are a number of innocent folks who have been convicted of crimes because their lawyers lost the debate. Putting a man to death after losing the debate is no guarantee that the man actually committed the crime for which he will lose his life.
The risk that even one innocent man may be put to death is reason enough to oppose the DP.

Lately DNA testing has gotten convicted folks off the hook, folks who as it turns out were innocent.
Some of these have been sentenced to life imprisonments....how many do you suppose may have felt like a friend of mine: He plead guilty to a charge which netted him life imprisonment because he feared the death penalty if he lost his case. I believe to this day that he is innocent, as do all who actually know him. Worse yet years after his incarceration a sick person who has a history of committing the very same type of crime, (repeatedly), that my friend has been convected of has admitted to operating in the very area at the very time as my friend supposedly was. The "MO"s match up down to the torturing of the victim with a cigarette before the murder! Is my friend gonna get a second hearing? Likely not, he was impoverished prior to his trial, he could not afford Johnny Cochran, so who is gonna rescue him? Should he have risked the death penalty or did he make a judgment solely on fear?

Should anyone here face the same situation, confess to a crime which you are innocent of or risk losing and face the death penalty what would you do? Would you consider the talent of the lawyers which you could afford? This would NOT have to be a consideration if there were no death penalty. So my second reason for opposing the DP is that it negatively influences the outcome of real justice because of a person's economic status. This is NOT fair, and yes this can be very racist.

My third reason is instincts...sometimes you just got to vote with what feels right, the death penalty feels wrong, it feels wrong in the same was as any of the other kinds of cruel or unusual arcane punishments. India doing those severe whippings for grafitti offenses feels wrong to me for instance. We no longer do the eye for an eye style of justice, the world needs to progress past these barbaric practices.
c

[me b zola]

34. Yes, yes, yes, and yes

That pretty much covers it.

[Karenina]

36. Kick, kick and

:kick: