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Question: How many people did the Nazis murder BEFORE they rose to power?

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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:46 PM
Original message
Question: How many people did the Nazis murder BEFORE they rose to power?
Answer - 0

The rise to Fascism may be relatively bloodless.

Remember this when being told by a RW'er that the Far Right and the 'christian' Right aren't evil because "They don't hurt anybody".
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice...
Amazing isn't it? Right before our eyes, and yet they play stupid like a child caught with it's hand in the "cookie jar".
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. It also took Mussolini almost 5 years to dissolve Parliament
Remember this when someone says, "They aren't fascists because there is still an elected opposition"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Actually YES. WE ALL ARE. * IS A MURDERING FASCIST NAZI!
Can Ya Dig It?

:hi:
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. 9-11 = Reichstag Fire/ Patriot Act = Ennabling Act...
Edited on Fri Dec-09-05 11:07 PM by RBHam
Scapegoating a religious minority, perpetrating aggressive invasions of sovereign countries based on lies and propaganda?

MORE than comfortable.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Deleted message
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not ALL of us can see the truth clearly.
Stick around, there's lots of ennablers here.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sorry there Six, but there is nothing but free thought here. Not sure why
you feel otherwise.

By the way, what does six stand for? It's not your post count goal is it?
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ha Ha Ha
Post Count Goal

Now THAT'S funny!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Deleted message
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I call bullshit. With all due respect dear six, if you were so interested
in seeing a certain side than it would be unproductive to immediately strike a tone of mockery in reply.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Deleted message
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. You are going to have a hell of a time convincing me your original post
was sincere. It is filled with snarky connotation. If that wasn't your intent, than just know you might want to word things better. Phrasing something in that way of "really? you feel that way huh? you're really comfortable with that?" is full of snarky condescending tone.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Deleted message
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. So, why are YOU getting defensive?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Hey, Questioning is the heart of education. Snarky Condescension Disguised
as sincerity, however, is the mark of a fool.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. LOL! What's good for Herr Busch is good for people like yourself...
...lying, that is.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Deleted message
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Your pretense of innocence isn't working. Try again.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. What a load of crap. We all know that your real goal is to be as....
...disruptive as possible for as long as you survive on this board.

You're not fooling anyone here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Deleted message
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Typical tactic of trolls...accuse long-term posters of trolling. How...
...sad for you to be so transparent.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Looks to me like some visitors play the game of being ignorant....
...just to be as disruptive as possible for as long as they survive on the board.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. How many people have to die before it's politically correct?
:eyes:

If there's anything that guarantees the 'success' of the next Hitler, it's waiting until over ten million are killed.

Junior's tally of over 100,000 just doesn't qualify, huh? :puke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Deleted message
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. "Moore-isms"???
Wow! :wow: Are you in the wrong pew! :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Deleted message
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. You know exactly what it means. Quit playing games.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Before you "toodle off"
Fascism has been defined as the strongest possible corporate-governmental partnership, making Bush policy technically fascist. So what are you?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. He's a Brownshirt wannabe. Six is probably earning a merit badge tonight.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I note a few minutes' silence from his peanut gallery
Perhaps he's gone off "camping."

It's always fun when you catch a live one.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Six wasn't much fun....was exposed much too quickly. :-)
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Don't some of them keep it up for years?
I've seen references to people "outing themselves" after "fooling everyone." Boy that must be a hollow rush!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Deleted message
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Not sure I saw anyone call you a fascist.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. "Fascist"? I think troll fits your attempted activities much better....
...for the moment, although you may indeed be a fascist-in-training without even realizing it. Most Nazis didn't realize they were fascists until after WWII was over.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
55. Hell, I named that looney-toon in two posts.
The fecal footprint of the North American Freepus Arrogantus is unmistakable - both by odor and by the shape of its demanding disdain. I made the error, however, of predicting (to the mods) he'd be nuked in less than 10 posts ... and missed by three. (sigh) Oh well. Getting old. :shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Deleted message
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. If you have to drink kool-aid
to know a fascist when you see one, I recommend grape flavor.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Right. Whatever you say. Next.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. He means this is DEMOCRATIC Underground.
Emphasis on Democratic and Underground.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Moore-isms? That cinched it.
:yoiks:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. "Is America Becoming Fascist?"
If we look at Stanley Payne's classical general theory of fascism, we are struck by the increasing similarities with the American model:
A. The Fascist Negations
  • Anti-liberalism
  • Anti-communism
  • Anti-conservatism (though with the understanding that fascist groups . . .{are} more willing to undertake temporary alliances with groups from any other sector, most commonly the right).

B. Ideology and Goals
  • Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state.
  • Organization of some new kind of regulated, multi-class, integrated national economic structure.
  • The goal of empire.
  • Specific espousal of an idealist, voluntarist creed.

C. Style and Organization
  • Emphasis on aesthetic structure . . . stressing romantic and mystical aspects.
  • Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and the goal of a mass party militia.
  • Positive evaluation and use of . . . violence.
  • Extreme stress on the masculine principle.
  • Exaltation of youth.
  • Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command.


http://www.counterpunch.org/shivani1026.html
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. And it all began long before the NeoCons seizing power on 12-13-2000.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Absolutely. 20-30% of this country has been fascist all along.
The high of 30% was reached back in the 20s and again right now. Strangely enough, that's the same percentage that existed in Nazi Germany in the late 20s and early 30s That's all it really takes.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Seems we're not the only ones to think that:
>
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. 20 Characteristics Of A Fascist Political Party
20 Characteristics Of A Fascist Political Party

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people's attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choicerelentless propaganda and disinformationwere usually effective. Often the regimes would incite 'spontaneous' acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and 'terrorists.' Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting 'national security,' and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elites behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the godless. A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of have-not citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. 'Normal' and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or 'traitors' was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


Here are six more characteristics found in Umberto Eco's "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt," from New York Review of Books, 22 June 1995, pp.12-15.

15. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view -- one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People. Because of its qualitative populism, Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

16. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four, as the official language of what he called Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

17. {As opposed to Ur-Fascism,} the critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

18. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old "proletarians" are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

19. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such "final solutions" implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

20. {The Ur-Fascist leader presents himself as the heroic representative of the characterists of fascism. As such, his image is ubiqutous in the media, and is often photographed in costume in conjunction with images or people that represent the fascist characteristics noted above. --Politex} Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons -- doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

http://bushwatch.com/fascism.htm
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Thanks, TN. Good compilation.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. Here's a good treatment (with examples) of the first 14 points.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. oooh neat! *filing away* :^)
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. I had not seen that before....that is really excellent! Thanks!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. You're both very welcome! It has EXCELLENT links, too.
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 12:32 AM by TahitiNut
I especially like this link to a 'reprint' of Lewis Lapham's Ocober essay in Harper's entitled "We Now Live in a Fascist State." Lewis Lapham is someone I've long admired - an extraordinary essayist and commendable natural ethicist.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Politics/harpers101205.cfm

"On the evidence of the wonderful work currently being done by the Bush Administration with respect to the trade deficit and the national debt -- to say nothing of expanding the markets for global terrorism -- I think we can look forward with confidence to character-building bankruptcies, picturesque bread riots, thrilling cavalcades of splendidly costumed motorcycle police." -- Lewis Lapham, October 2005

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. I am!
If the shoe fits. And all that jazz!
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. I don't know about this
There was a full-blown war in Germany from1919-1921 and the Freikorps, whence the Nazi rank-and-file came originally, were known for atrocities in prosecuting their War on Bolshevism. So this may be an invalid point IMO.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
40. I don't know about that.
I am inclined to believe the brownshirts did kill people.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
52. It appears that Six has been deep-sixed. Pity.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. I didn't think he'd be here too long.
It was fun while it lasted.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
58. Ah, but do not forget Kristalnacht.
No one "killed" but their livelyhoods were destroyed. We should be wary.
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