The threads trashing the Air Marshals should stop

[insanity]

Look, the thing that happened in Miami was tragic, but entirely avoidable (we probably wouldn't of had to debate this if the guy had took his meds). I do not believe the FAMs are involved in some sick eugenic experiment to weed out all the mentally-ill in America. You can second guess the tactics all you want, but when it comes down to it, if that guy had a bomb and he set it off in the Miami Airport many people would have died. I feel awful for both the FAMs who had to take a man's life, and the man who was so agitated that this is what came from it. However, if I were in the same situation where I could either shoot one man and kill him or risk that man killing himself and other innocent people, I would have to shoot him. These people are not trigger crazy (one incident since 9/11 shows discipline) because in discharging their weapon they become exposed and thus put themselves at great risk. The tactics they used were sound and they will probably be cleared to return to work by the federal review board.

[liberalnurse]

1. I agree.

The family apparently is not accepting any responsibility. The wife was aware of his non-compliance of his psyche medication. For him to go psychotic on the plane, he had to of been off his medication for at least a week....not just less than 24 hours.

I ask this; Did the family inform the Airline that he was a mental health client who has been unstable? It is customary to inform the Airlines of health issues such as cardiac, diabetes, physical disabilities and also mental health issues.

I say, the family need to take responsibility here.

[FearofFutility]

7. Having worked with the mentally ill

for 8 years, I saw many who started to show symptoms of their mental illness after not taking their meds for just one day. Many needed PRN's several times a day just to keep their symptoms in check.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Do you know any mentally ill people?

I take offense to your remarks because I have a sister who is mentally ill. I can no more control her med compliance than I can make my dog speak English.

There are far too many unknowns here. Perhaps the wife didn't know he was off his meds until they boarded the plane. Perhaps he ran out while in Equador and she was anxious to get him home. Perhaps - well there are a brazillion different scenarios.

This woman lost her husband. It is a tragic loss. To blame her is just incredibly insensitive and downright ignorant.

There was a thread here earlier today about training law enforcement to deal with the mentally ill. That is a far better way to direct our energies than to blame the wife. She is suffering enough.

[unblock]

9. how do you know he "had to" have been off meds for at least a week?

i don't know for a fact how long he had been off meds, but meds can stop working even when you are being taken as directed.
people's chemistries change, their underlying conditions deteriorate, doctors fuck up, and changes in diet and sleep (e.g., when travelling -- hmmmm) can all interfere with the effectiveness of the meds.

in any event, even if there are some things the wife could have done, that does nothing to mitigate the culpability of the air marshalls or the debate on how such situations should be handled in the future.

also note that unless a court order was in place, the victim here legally free and could not have been forced to take his meds, e.g., as others have suggested.

[SPKrazy]

17. She says he was "Psychotic"

but I haven't seen that stated officially.

(Psychotic meaning that he was delusional, or having hallucinations, or other psychotic symptoms)

Just being manic even doesn't mean you are psychotic.

[liberalnurse]

54. His behavior is suggestive of such;

as he displayed delusional thinking/or psychosis......

As he plowed through the passengers yelling, "I have a bomb" was my first clue.

If he was so unpredictable with his illness, to the point only being off them for a few hours, well then again, this too would indeed warrant the family to notify the Airlines of a potential crisis.

I'm saying the family was negligent. They failed to communicate. Even people with a history of panic attacks volunteer to update the airlines of their health issues when they book the flight! I don't believe he had any business being on a such a long flight in his de-compensated state.

[SPKrazy]

69. I'm saying that saying "I've got a bomb" is not necessarily delusional

just because something turns out not to be true, doesn't mean it is delusional

we don't know if he really believed he had a bomb

we don't know what he was thinking

we do know that he didn't obey the commands of FAM's sworn to protect the passengers and he is now dead because of that.

None of that means he was psychotic.

He may have been, but there is no hard fact to prove such as being true.

As to his family, I tend to agree that the wife should have said something to the crew, she may have been embarrassed or afraid to do so (Now I'm reaching for explanations) but she didn't and whether that would have made a difference is unclear.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

229. Seven passengers have stated that he never said the word "bomb".

[converted_democrat]

113. They don't even know for sure he said the word bomb.

The only person that said such was an air marshall spokesperson, and no one has come forward to verify the claim. OTOH, two witnesses have come forward and said he didn't say that. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to judge a family when the air marshall's can't even get their story straight about what happened.

[kath]

114. Problem - it sounds like the story that he "plowed through the passengers

yelling 'I have a bomb'" may not be true...

[knitter4democracy]

25. My mom was recently diagnosed as bi-polar.

She went downhill in a matter of a couple of days. She was still somewhat rational on Friday (agreed to go to the doctor and get checked) but was entirely manic and beyond reason by Saturday morning. It was fast, and it was scary. We had her admitted on Sunday morning after seeing her just get worse and worse and worse very quickly. If we'd been travelling with her (from Colombia, no less), that would have been so scary to get through.

[SPKrazy]

40. Now, hopefully if you had been traveling with her from Colombia

you would have hospitalized her until she was stable there if needed, notified the crew of the plane, and made sure that she got her meds.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Still . . .

The meds aren't the magic pills everyone seems to think they are. They take weeks to take full effect, and the body can change its reactions to them at any time. Something that used to work might not work in a month. If we'd been out of the country and the meds started not working, it might have been very difficult to get her stabilized enough to fly.

[SPKrazy]

53. I'm sure that is true

having worked in the mental health field since 1983, I can tell you that I wouldn't want to travel with a bipolar (untreated) but I also think that these people got on the plane in Miami, not Colombia, so I don't know what to think.

The facts are that I don't know all the facts. And it was a tragic thing.

I will choose to believe the FAM's until proven otherwise and then (if) I'll be pissed as hell!

[knitter4democracy]

66. The way my mom was, I was mad I'd let my kids go to the zoo

with her. The more I find out about that zoo trip, the worse it sounds--and it was only 15 minutes away.

He and his wife were on the last leg of their trip from Colombia, and I'm sure his wife was planning to get him evaluated and all when they got home and was just trying to survive the trip when his manic episode got out of control.

[Bluerthanblue]

129. why chose to believe anyone? why not keep an open mind?

you have chosen to believe the family is at fault- AND that they had options that they willingly and knowingly 'blew off'- If you don't know the facts, why do you speculate about what the family did, condemning them, yet give the FAM the benifit of the doubt?
I don't ask this as a 'dis' in any way- but have you thought perhaps you might be abit biased, and understandibly 'burned out' after working in the mental health field for the last 22yrs?

It's a profession where compassion fatigue is not a rare thing- as well as a profession that recieves little respect.

[SPKrazy]

247. You could be right

I don't know the facts, I don't know what the family did or didn't do.

I do know what the FAM's have claimed.

I don't want to believe that they would have shot an unarmed man without a good reason to do so.

But I will consider that I am likely biased.

And yes, compassion fatigue is a fact, I've luckily changed jobs several time in terms of the populations that I've dealt with. (Adolescents, adults, substance abuse, psychiatric, pain management, and now geriatric psych) but the thanks are few and far between.

I find that working in a hospital setting is easier because you don't have time to get attached to people.

[Bluerthanblue]

251. I appreciate that-

I also appreciate the work you do- and you are right, it is often a thankless job, and a job that is not valued in the 'scheme' of this world on the level it SHOULD be-
I've known some incredibly patient, kind, innovative, and tollerant Psych. Nurses, and Social Workers- some who have had years in the profession, and still hung in there.
This is little compensation i'm sure- but please know, when you are feeling like "WTF am I doing this for?" comes over you- or when someone you've tried so hard to help ends up succeeding in offing themself- you DO make a difference to many people- even if the thanks aren't verbal- There are several people i hold close in times of darkness and chaos- words spoken out of lips that could so easily have said "just STFU" but words that instead said- "I'll pass- you're gonna get through this" One who brought me a leaf of lemon geranium and crushed it under my nose, telling me- "smell this?... it's so beautiful... it's here right in front of you, and so am I... you are here, you are safe... " (I still rely on the scent of lemon geranium when i'm losin it-)
Good people who cared, and who never heard the kind of thanks i wish i'd given them- I'm sure the same goes for people you've encountered- so think of that, please when it all seems worthless- you do a thankless job, but you make a world of difference.

peace,
blu-

(who needs to go find some lemon geranium) it's weary cold world we live in lately.-

[liberalnurse]

61. Yes, that would indeed

be a reasonable family action step...... Absolutely. :thumbsup:

[SPKrazy]

14. I agree partly

Although I don't know that anyone has said he "went psychotic"

He was distressed and wanted off the plane

He should have obeyed the FAM and he wouldn't have been shot

If he'd taken his meds the likelihood of that happening would have been less (getting shot)

But I don't know that he had to have been off for a week, he could have been off a short time, or a long time, we don't know, but I haven't seen anyone saying he was psychotic.

[LostinVA]

20. IF he was in psychosis or having a severe panic attack

He could not have been able to obey the FAMs....

[SPKrazy]

24. And unfortunately that is the shit of life

These FAM's had no time to make that determination if they truly believed that he was a danger

It sucks, but if there had been a bomb and they had tried to talk to the guy and he detonated, the shitstorm would have been much bigger!

[Bluerthanblue]

142. you must also know that he

very well could have had the same response even IF he was completly compliant on his meds-

Yes, if he had 'obeyed' the FAM's perhaps he wouldn't have been shot- On the flip side of that, if the FAM'S had approached the situation somewhat differently, there is also the possibility he wouldn't have been shot either-

I've been exposed to the mental health 'world' for over 40 yrs- and i've seen it from many sides- The most discouraging thing to me is how people can't wrap their mind around the fact that there ARE people who cannot 'obey'- or see the 'reality' of a situation, NOT because they are stubborn, stupid, arrogant, or assholes, but because their perspective of a situation is distorted by the way their brain is responding to what it is experincing.

Blame the dead guy? blame the crazy guy? or ask how to keep this from ever happening again.-
Make his death worth something.

[stickdog]

163. Is it now OK for FAMs to kill you simply for not obeying them?

Are we already living under "marshal law"?

[noiretextatique]

42. i bet your only regret

it that they didn't use a taser in addition to bullets.

[liberalnurse]

78. You don't even know me....

but you think you do. You only wish you could hang out with my crowd.

[High Plains]

79. self-delete

[liberalnurse]

84. Nobody is actually noticing you....

So, mind your own business. You are way out of your league.

[noiretextatique]

88. i know you: defender of authority and police action

regardless of the circumstances. you are well-known for your mindless support of any police/authority action.

[liberalnurse]

91. Apparently, you have a problem with police and authority.

It is that nasty, shameful, 2nd degree felony on your record that is seeding such resentment????? :shrug:

[High Plains]

106. Do you know something we don't know?

Or are you just spewing slanders?

[noiretextatique]

261. spewing racist slanders, at that

not surprising in the least...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

109. LOL!!!! Reads like a bad Travis McGee novel ripoff...

Too Fucking Much!

"You Must Respect My AUTHORITIIIIE!"

Be a good little nazi and don't question the man with the lightning bolts."

[noiretextatique]

259. it's because of my genes

i am what is known as a "symbolic assailant". that means i am more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested, and convicted than people like you and "your crowd" are...you and "your crowd" tend to support stereotypes, like racial profiles. and it seems you believe people who question police action are criminals...tell that to the families of ronnie settles and eula mae love, two black people who ALSO didn't have 2nd degree felonies, but who were killed by the Signal Hill and Los Angeles police departments. you might want to read up on their cases because the multi-million dollar settlements their families from those police departments actually led to some positive changes in those departments, like the firing of some bad cops.
which brings up yet another reason to question police action: the cost taxpayers have to foot for police misconduct. not to mention the lives lost, like the two people, the ones who didn't have 2nd degree felonies, like myself, who i mentioned above.

[converted_democrat]

120. Oh, how right you are!

:rofl:

[converted_democrat]

137. "You only wish you could hang out with my crowd. "

:rofl: The sad thing is, you probably thought that was really funny. Don't you have to graduate junior high to become a nurse?

[liberalnurse]

166. Yes, Nursing is a Graduate level

education....Do you know what that is?

[converted_democrat]

216. Yea sweetie, I know what that is....I bet you feel real special, huh?

If that's all you got to be proud of at your age, than I assure you, you're not as "special" as you think. Your post still does not explain how they let someone of such profound emotional immaturity become a nurse.

Oh, and if we went by "traditional" markers for success, I'm nearly half your age, and have "less" education, but I'd bet my last dime, I'd beat you devastatingly on every count.

[FearofFutility]

235. One can become a nurse

with two years of education through diploma and associate degree programs.

[liberalnurse]

252. Yes they can......

Nursing offers a variety of educational paths to meet the need of their students. I am most fond of the old diploma schools.

One thing that the two-year RN student needs to realize; it is incredibly difficult to complete the General Education and Science Classes along with the Nursing Classes within a two-year Program. It typically takes an RN Student a minimum of 3 years for the Associate Degree. The new LPN to RN Bridge Programs are out there now...It does take two years or slightly less with this plan. I have a Staff LPN who is doing this plan right now. She is able to work on the weekends.

[converted_democrat]

117. Oh, that's bad, but spot on accurate!

:rofl:

[liberalnurse]

133. Rudimentary today aren't you.....

So familiar; (sigh)....never actually posting substance; just your typical bully rhetorical jabber. Maybe some day your kind could actually discuss a social issue. Nah....it's beyond the scope isn't it.....

:eyes:

[converted_democrat]

144. My kind? You mean the "kind" that does not mindlessly believe everything

the government proclaims to be the truth? Riiight, silly me trying to save the world without using a taser! What was I thinking? I wouldn't trade my kind, for your kind on any day of the week.

[liberalnurse]

165. I can say this much......

I was NEVER a republican.......You can't say that. So, a trade off is not an option.

:puke:

[converted_democrat]

214. And I can say this much....

I was born in a conservative area, to conservative people. I knew no different growing up. I didn't know that the other team even existed. This is all ya got? I grew up in a conservative home and your going to "blame" me, for mistakes my parents made? Pretty pathetic, nothing new for you, but pretty pathetic none the less.

You on the other hand, claim to be democratically inclined, yet you get your jollies off of people getting fried by a taser. You swallow everything people of "authority" tell you, and mindlessly regurgitate the crap they spew, no matter what the facts actually point to.

Yea, there is a difference in "my kind" and "your kind" as you stated earlier. My kind is smart enough to evaluate facts for ourselves, and change opinions when given new facts. "Your kind" clings to straw man arguments, and won't change an opinion when new facts are presented.

Like I said before, I'll take my kind, over your kind, any day of the week.

On edit- I find it really disturbing that a "nurse," a person that's supposed to help those in need, is advocating shooting a man that's ill, without knowing all of the facts. It really speaks volumes about what we have become as a nation.

[liberalnurse]

232. Obviously, you appear to have a

reading comprehension problem so I will kindly assist you with a summary of my post.

I have only emphasized the issue that the family failed to communicate to the Airlines by informing them that this man had an unpredictable mental health illness. An illness which warranted a pre-flight update to the airline staff regarding his mental instability. Securing support and help is proactive. Health care alerts are a common practice with the Airlines patrons and well as with many public service companies. It is a win-win situation for ALL.

Go back and find me one word where I suggested or advocated for the shooting of a man.

You can't! You lied. You are busted.

So, your frustrated fantasy has been exposed, as you confabulate your thoughts in this thread with the use of fictitious, personal attacks.

example: (Your false and delusional thinking.......)

snip>

On edit- I find it really disturbing that a "nurse," a person that's supposed to help those in need, is advocating shooting a man that's ill, without knowing all of the facts. It really speaks volumes about what we have become as a nation".

end>

You on the other hand are a novice.

[converted_democrat]

233. The whole premise of the OP was that nothing should or could have

been done any differently, and that we should not pick on the Air Marshall. You agreed. That pretty much covers it.

[liberalnurse]

237. I never addressed the Air Marshals.

I expanded the discussion to include the family care givers responsibility. Go ahead and read my posts for clarity.

[converted_democrat]

239. The title of your post is "I agree." I really don't need to say more...n/t

[liberalnurse]

242. What? Is that the best you can do?

:rofl: :spray:

[converted_democrat]

258. Your words sweetie, not mine... You clearly wrote..I agree.

Step up, and own your words sweetie, you wrote them, not I. Oh, and btw, no matter how many pathetic "smilies" you use, nothing changes what you wrote. Stop the distractions, and own your words. I'm sure that's what others of a "graduate position" would do. LOL.

[EFerrari]

260. We don't know if he was "non compliant"

we only know he wasn't on his medication.

Further, many people decompensate on or off their medication.

Further, "compliance" is not a virtue but in itself a form of illness, bound up with the feeling that life is not worth living. It is a surrender of self, not a treatment goal.

To blame this man's family is simply wrong in about fifty ways.

[unblock]

2. i'm not sure what you mean by "entirely avoidable"

i have a brother who's mentally ill, and i can assure you that the decision to take the meds or not is made by in large part by the disease.

yes, there would have been no incident if he hadn't freaked out. but having a perfectly normal panic episode shouldn't be met with bullets.


when you frame the choice as a choice between shooting one man and risking more deaths, you make quite a few assumptions, all of them false or dubious. for instance, this assumes that the risk of many people dying is high the act of shooting the one will save lives. there are many reasons why these are bogus assumptions.


(the above is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with my being a moderator.)

[texpatriot2004]

3. Well said Unblock. His episode should not have been met with

bullets.

[Ladyhawk]

11. "decision to take the meds or not is made by in large part by the disease"

Good point. Also, there is sometimes outside pressure to stop taking medications. This pressure can come from concerned family members who don't trust medications and even from psychiatrists (see my link to Dr. Breggin, above).

[texpatriot2004]

4. Nah. The Marshal was wrong nm

[burythehatchet]

43. have you seen the new story reporting another eyewitness account?

http://www.wftv.com/news/5503137/detail.html

[texpatriot2004]

211. No, I hadn't seen that. Thanks for the link nm

[seabeyond]

5. firstly if he did have a bomb he wouldn't have waited to be shot

secondly, do you know anything about human behavior, panic attacks and where they come from. how they take over whole body. and how it can effect the most normal of person

thirdly it isn't about pointing finger at marshals it is pointing finger at environment that the govt has created in our airports and the fear we sit in that allows this to happen, and will continue to happen in what i feel greater measure.

fourth, dont tell me that i have to think like you. i think people like you have helped to create this environment totally willing to give up all your power to an authority that we see doesn't use it in balance and rationality

and i could probably go further

to me, it is posts likes yours that have placed marshals in the position where they make such poor choices and an environment that feeds the anxiety level of our general population

[seabeyond]

6. btw, i am not so willing to dismiss the death of another fellow

human being. it just isnt ok by me. it just isnt something for me to shrug my shoulders over and say oh well.

[LostinVA]

22. Well said!

[bryant69]

Yeah you are a moral paragon.

The sort of moral paragon who has to distort the OPs words to make them fit your argument, but truely that's justified by your deep concern over the death of another human being. I'm sure if guys like the OP were in charge we'd be gunning down mentally ill people left and right. I'm also sure that there is no possibility of terrorist activity ever except that which the Bush Administration initiates.

Thank goodness for people like you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[seabeyond]

34. what? n/t

[insanity]

13. Wow dude

First, I never said that you had to think like me. Second, I don't buy into the fear and hype the government tries to push because I'm smart enough to think for myself. All I'm saying is that this guy placed himself in a position where the FAMs did not have any other choice. It could have been cop assisted suicide, it could have been this guy was just out of it and didn't consider the consequences of his actions. Either way the end result is sadly the same, if you make threats or are precived as a threat and make no effort to comply you become a target. This would have happened before 9/11 in the same scenario.

[seabeyond]

19. now we are responsible for figuring out what a preceived threat

is for a cop shooting us or not. we were told he said he had a bomb. appears that isnt true. so what is the preceived threat, i need to know. to make sure i dont do a mis move that will be deemed a preceived threat. you are willing to put you life on the line for a preceived threat? wow.

telling us we needed to stop the threads challenging what the marshals did and they had no other choice is saying, we have to think your way. a lot of us see other alternatives so we dont agree with you. telling us to stop threads is telling us to shut up

have you experienced a panic attack. do you have a clue what that is and what it physically does to a body. it happens to people. they had better damn well figure out how to respond, instead of us trying to figure out how to perfectly step to not be shot. panic attacks can happen to the most normal of person. it could happen to someone who has never experienced it in past and not even know what is going on

so what you are telling me, we have to understand death can be a result of a disorder or panic attack and i am not suppose to be bothered by this

well i am. i am sorry you are not. maybe if more people were, the demand would be there for the police and other authoritive people to have to become educated and adopt policy that will allow our innocent people not be murdered.

[insanity]

35. look

People making threads that rag on the FAMs as trigger happy are just ill-informed. One incident in post 9/11 does not warrant them being trigger happy. They had to make a choice, there was no time for cognitive behavioral therapy. I had a panic attack that was induced by medication that was perscriped to me when I was younger. I was a total wreck and became completley illogical and run down physically and thankfully my therapist pulled me off the pills and put me on an expiermental treatment.

[seabeyond]

44. it isnt just this one event. it is indicitive of how our authority is

reacting in many instances and it is getting out of hand, this is just one example. i understand there are extreme people on this board that want to blame the individuals, i do not. i have no deisire. but out of this tragedy i would like for people to look at what we are creating. it is not new, and it is not going to go away. until addressed it is going to continue to get worse. that is why shutting up and mindlessly supporting what these men isnt going to work. you can not off set the extremist on one side, by being an extremist and hands to ears on the other side. what if you had you first panic attack during a boarding. became claustrophobic, and had to get off, right then and there. you see the door open. you can make it. you arent hearing any of the fuzzy noise.

it doesnt warrant death.

it APPEARS the man didnt say he had a bomb, it was a preceived threat

the mans wife was following down the isle saying he isnt dangerous, he is ill. that would have given me a moment thought to maybe see differently

i listened to another poster on another thread tell about how she had waited so long, worked herself up by hte time she sat in her seat and bolted off plane. shit happens. we have to at least try to understand sht happens. this kind of shit happens a zillion more times than bombs on planes or hijackers that go into a building.

but i wont dismiss this mans death as an oh well. at least allow it to be a lesson for us. learn from it. so it doesnt happen again

[sandnsea]

21. But it didn't happen before 9/11

Now did it? And there have been lots of unruly passengers on planes. Somehow they managed without killing people.

[LostinVA]

23. And, I haven't seen too many drunks getting shot, have you?

And they cause a hell of a lot more REAL problems -- and dangers for passengers and flight crew -- than that poor guy did yesterday. God, they ahve to land planes because of them!

[The Stranger]

81. The "But what if he had a bomb?" response isn't going to work anymore.

Innocent people have died. Make changes or be tried for murder.

[Ladyhawk]

10. I have mixed feelings on this issue because I don't yet have all the facts

Regardless, this is a great tragedy. I'm sorry that there have been flame wars over this. We should be discussing this rationally, waiting for new information. Instead people have chosen hard sides without knowing vital information. Me, I'm shrugging. :shrug:

If the guy said he had a bomb, the shooting was probably justified, but that "fact" may not even be true. As someone who has suffered from severe depression, I have sympathy for the man who was killed and for his wife. There is often a lot of pressure from "holistic medicine" types to discard psychotropic medications. There's a whole movement founded by Dr. Peter Breggin to get rid of psych meds. I've even seen folks on DU advocate going off medications. Patients and family are caught in the middle and often don't know which course to take. Chronic illness can make a person re-evaluate medications.

I don't know what this particular family was thinking, but it's not a good idea to judge until we have the facts in this matter, also.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. The question is did he present an immediate threat.

From what I've read about it, he seems to have panicked and headed for the exit. Screaming, shouting, waving arms, etc., don't really pose a threat. I've dealt with a lot of mentally ill people as a counselor. 99% of the time they are harmless and easily identifiable.

Further question, if one is a "terrorist" determined to blow up a plane, does one announce it and act crazy?

My opinion: If we must have (a dubious proposal at best) guys with guns on public transportation to "protect" us from the "terrorists" they should be trained how to identify and deal with disturbed people without hauling out their shooting irons and blasting away.

[Little Star]

15. Mentally ill people are not responsible

their disease does not allow it thats why they are called mentally ill or handicapped. Since when is a spouse responsible for their spouses actions?

Law enforcement however is responsible for their actions and they realize that they are not doing such a bang up job of it. Law enforcement is trying to educate first responders on how to deal with and recognize mentally ill people. May I suggest that everyone read
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=CIT&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=28897.

It appears that this shooting is going to be very much like the London shooting of an innocent man.

[SPKrazy]

47. Being mentally ill doesn't work as an excuse in court

unless you actually can't tell the difference between right and wrong, which is rare, and very hard to prove.

I think that yes this is a tragedy, mentally ill or not, if he was perceived as a threat, then he had to be dealt with.

[liberalnurse]

76. Thats not completely true......

They are responsible to take their meds so that they can function in society. They are not granted a free pass to harm themselves and/or others. They don't get a free ticket to be irresponsible, to cause chaos, to commit crimes or create havoc.

[chat_noir]

103. liberalnurse, that is just so much crap

you sound neither liberal, nor like a caring, informed health professional

[liberalnurse]

172. Well, that goes to show

what little your really know.........

[FearofFutility]

238. The only problem is

we don't know why he didn't take his medications. Did he simply run out and wasn't able to have them refilled while on vacation, was it a financial problem? Furthermore, it is very common for the mentally ill not to take their medication because they make them feel awful or they like the feel of a manic episode or the voices in their heads are telling them not to take them. I take it you're not a psych nurse.

[liberalnurse]

253. Every RN knows that non-compliance with medication

is part of the mental illness cycle. I am attempting to look outside the box, to discuss responsibility of care givers. Communication of the clients needs and issues even in a generalization for a basic "heads-up" can be deemed prudent and responsible care. I believe it could of changed the outcome of this tragedy.

[stray cat]

No one was shot because they were mentally ill

Just like the pilot on the Southwest flight didn't go gunning for kids with his airplane. Tragic accidents and miscalculations happen extremely quickly and are irreversible once they are made. How many people have narrowly avoided a car accident because they didn't see someone? What if you had been a second too late in your response or the other person hadn't gotten out of the way. Its a tragedy and will be no less a tragedy if the air marshals did screw up and shoot to soon and go to jail. Its a job I am glad I don't have.

[dusmcj]

16. six shots ought to evacuate the brainpan real good

so I'm neither a "security professional", nor do I know the specifics of the shooting. I did however hear that six shots were fired, presumably (hopefully) all striking the poor man (since we don't want air marshals to miss...). I recall a infotainment (i.e., cable news) segment about air marshals from a few years ago (post 9/11) where a buzzcut gentleman described the high standard of firearms training that air marshals undergo, and that they are trained to "deliver two shots to the brainpan in under 1.4 seconds", which is supposed to disable the central nervous system and prevent an individual with a firearm or bomb trigger from moving, even involuntarily (as some kind of reflex). It is somewhat disturbing, and reminiscent of such events as the Amadou Diallo shooting, that six shots were fired in this sad event. One does wonder whether these gents were fully "Under Control", to use the defectives' lingo. Again, I don't know the specifics of the shooting, so I don't know that there aren't particulars which would justify the extra shots.

[MichaelHarris]

18. If there is a guy running through an airport yelling BOMB!!!

I'm glad some of my tax dollars pay someone to put a bullet in his ass. What do some of these people want, have them do an on the spot intervention? Maybe they could have asked him why he hates his mother? We pay these guys to make decisions that may save lives, sure there may be bad apples but in this case they just didn't have time to ask this guy about his childhood. Besides, Tom Cruise would have just said it was all pseudo-science anyway.

[seabeyond]

26. you can stop with the premise he ran thru the airport saying bomb

because it appears that isnt true. so why do you base your conclusion on a nontruth and expect any backing on your conclusions

[MichaelHarris]

29. all the facts are already in?

Who's reporting what? What did you hear him say?

[seabeyond]

30. at least i put "it appears". you really want to challenge me on

being open to facts.

also it was never stated he ran thru the airport, another nontruth. it was he ran aisle of airplane. even marshal discounts that story

[MichaelHarris]

38. last time guys run up an aisle of an airplane

2 of them crashed into buildings, were those guys sane? Look I don't give in to all the post 9-11 fear and crap but alot of people do and those people carry guns. There are some things you just don't do and one of them is go bezerk on a plane. All we have is what is being reported, we are not in these marshall's shoes having to make a split second decision on whether saving one life or saving hundreds. I'm still optimistic that most law enforcement officials are good and try to do the right thing.

I'm not going to second guess or judge the people put in place to save our life until all of the facts are in, if they did wrong there will be proof somewhere of it and I will join in with seeking their punishment. If you honestly believe that this officer shot a person in a crowded airport, risking the lives of others while hoping he was saving lives and has no remorse then you live in a world that buys into the group that says, "he has a badge, he must be crooked"

[seabeyond]

49. you dont give into 9/11 but you use it for an excuse to murder a man

it would be nice if this man had the ability to not go bezerk on the plane dont you think. dont you imagine he would have appreciated having the control to not go bezerk. shit happens to people and we put them in these crowded over stressed and anxiety filled, fearfilled airports and what.... keep fingers crossed. and oh well to those that dont make it thru. what a compassionate people we are

and absolutely question authority. those that are able to hold the gun to our head. hell yes i am going to judge and second guess. it is not unknown in our history cops and soldiers abusing our people, our brothers and sister, they MUST be held accountable. if not, the behavior will grow. if they are held accountable, they will control and monitor themselves. we must hold them accountable.

i said nothing about this man motive, nor about this mans remorse. please dont put words in my mouth. i dont do the unknown, i cannot make such a statement

at a guess, i would say it has been drummed in his head, if someone doesnt follow instruction shoot to kill

this policy is what i am challenging, not the marshal

[insanity]

58. Shoot to kill is the only reason you shoot

Use of lethal force is meant to be lethal. If you shoot to wound then you don't remove the problem. Think about that speed freak who took like 30 bullets before being brought down. I don't like the fact that our society is so fucked up we even have to deal with issues like these. Maybe one day we won't and thats what we (as liberals) should continue to work for. However, when things like this do happen I tend to think about the potential consequences of what could have happened. I hate to see anybody die, and in that light I'd rather that the fatalities were isolated to a minimum.

[seabeyond]

68. a lot of my rights are being taken away for what "could" happen

i am not ok with that. i will fight that

[MichaelHarris]

73. Who will we hold responsible for those who don't take

their medication? Did John Wayne Gacy need medications? Did Ted Bundy need medications? Would the University of Texas tower shooter have benefited from medication? How much time do we give law enforcement to diagnose the insane? I didn't make this a mental health issue here, others did that. Our prisons are full of people who kill for various reasons, I mentioned the above killers because they had mental disorders and were dangerous to society. FYI the UT tower killer had a small tumor in his brain, did the Trooper kill an Innocent man?

Some of you act as if the mentally ill can do no wrong, that they can't be responsible for their actions and law enforcement should diagnose that on the spot. People have died and will continue to die with that thinking, would Sharon Tate be alive if the medicines and help old Charlie received had worked? Should ole Charlie be free because after all it's not his fault he's fucked-up?

Who's responsible for this man being off his medicines, him, his wife, or the marshall trying to save lives? This man was responsible enough to be married for 22 years, to travel to South America and do missionary work, and to be able to plan such a trip. Why is it all of the sudden is he NOT responsible for getting off his medication?

Some may argue that the act of murder or even the threat of murder is an insane act, in this day and age actions such as this could certainly be considered an insane act. What is it you people want, law enforcement officials carrying a couch in the the trunk?

[liberalnurse]

77. Well said.....

:loveya:

[MichaelHarris]

95. Thank you

I'm banging my head on the keyboard at the absurdity. If the facts show a unjustified shooting then I'll join the band wagon but not until the investigation in completed.

I'm amused at one poster who put me on ignore because, "I don't understand mental illness" that cracked me up.

BTW, congrats on the handling of that guy in an earlier post.

[liberalnurse]

178. Thanks......

:hi:

Healthy support is always appreciated.

[Texasgal]

82. Best statement of the day

"Who's responsible for this man being off his medicines, him, his wife, or the marshall trying to save lives? This man was responsible enough to be married for 22 years, to travel to South America and do missionary work, and to be able to plan such a trip. Why is all of the sudden is he NOT responsible for getting off his medication?"

EXACTLY!

Here's the skinny: Why in the hell would a FAM shoot someone dead for NO APPARENT reason? There was a plane full of people and numerous witnesses... so why would he do it on purpose? Is Law enforcement perfect? I would hate to have to make a slit second decision like that... It must have been horrible for him. It just doesn't add up... there was a REASON. I am sure we will find out soon.

[MichaelHarris]

93. Thank you

unfortunately some are still going to be blind to the fact that all the Air Marshall wanted to do was protect people. About the only thing I can offer them is what would have happened while Charles Whitman was shooting people on the UT campus if we had sent a psychiatrist instead of a State Trooper?

"in previous years Charlie had remarked offhandedly to various people that a sniper could do quite a bit of damage from the Tower."

As to Whitman's home life and his father:

“I did on many occasions beat my wife,” he would later say, “but I loved her…I did and do have an awful temper, but my wife was awful stubborn….because of my temper, I knocked her around.” His discipline with his sons was equally harsh—he often employed belts, paddles and his fists to make sure they complied with his rules and met his expectations."

Hints at compulsive behavior:

He worked hard at being upstanding and admirable, yet constantly berated himself for not living up to his own expectations. His copious journals contain countless self-improvement schemes and lists of traits he felt he should develop.

His wife:

Kathy Whitman noticed her husband’s ever bleaker outlook and began to gently urge him to seek counseling.

His doctor:

Dr. Jan D. Cochrun prescribed Valium for Charlie and referred him to University Health Center Staff Psychiatrist Dr. Maurice Dean Heatly. At one point, he told Heatly that he had fantasized about “going up on the Tower with a deer rifle and shooting people."

And finally:

"He had, in fact, been making such comments for years, and everyone dismissed them as nonsense."

Now all of you Air Marshall condemners read this and tell us, who is to blame for Charles Whitman? Charles Whitman? The wife? The doctor? Or finally the trooper who killed him?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/index_1.html

[seabeyond]

85. the reality is, these people are a part of our society. also

an increasing number of people are being effected with the nation we have created the last handful of years and we will be getting more of this. further i suggest what we have done in our airports are creating an even higher anxiety level for people ergo gonna create more of this. i would rather address this and find some solutions for the people in the futrue. none of us can do anything for htis man, or the marshal that shot htis man. but we can, if we put forth an effort, do something for our future. or we can continue as we do, and it will continue to get worse. it is ours as a society to decide.

[stickdog]

145. Such BULLSHIT sophistry!

The poor DEAD guy did NOTHING that warranted execution.

End of story.

Next.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

155. And here I thought

civility might have been called for here.

Tisk, tisk, as they say in freeperland.

I don't believe you've got a monopoly on opinions or any special insight into the facts, so it might be appropriate to behave as if others' opinions are as valid as yours. A comment like this doesn't get anybody anywhere, but a civil exchange of ideas, thoughts, and opinions sometimes advances us all.

[stickdog]

159. Yes, yes, let's let cooler heads prevail here.

We undermine our President at our own peril, of course ...

[Bluerthanblue]

197. thank you Stickdog- you get it. ! eom

[A-Schwarzenegger]

160. You forgot Hitler.

[RedOnce]

202. Apparently you don't know anyone who is bipolar...

or you would not write this:

"This man was responsible enough to be married for 22 years, to travel to South America and do missionary work, and to be able to plan such a trip. Why is it all of the sudden is he NOT responsible for getting off his medication?"

Yes, this is often how it goes for these people. Long periods of seemingly normal life followed by cycling (mania followed by depression). Also, many bipolars go through years of unstable trial and error just to find the right combo of meds. This is why law enforcement needs to be trained to anticipate this type of behavior as a possibility.

The "on vs. off his meds" issue is a fairly moot point. Many bipolars cycle even when they are on their meds although usually less frequently. But, a manic episode like this one is certainly possible for some bipolars who are reliably taking their meds.

Btw, there was no bomb.

[seabeyond]

222. i am not into blaming. i am not into blaming any of the characters

in this story. i am into looking at what happened and why and seeing we are creating this atmosphere. we as a whole are all responsible for our airports, our people with aurthority and power over us, our fellow man all behaving in such a way that the income is,..... an innocent man dead.

this is what i chose to address. i cannot change what happened to this man, it is over for him, but his death will make me pause, in future circumstances. the people that chose to ignore this lesson in this for their preceived safety are the ones that are going to feed the escalation of these events, not address and maybe save the next life.

[TX-RAT]

31. why do you base your conclusion on a non truth?

How do you know it's not true, the investigations just started. Your the one's jumping the gun.

[seabeyond]

33. NEVER was it stated he ran thru airport. so i will argue with you on

that. further, in my post i put "it appears" that he never said bomb. see a difference. it appears as if the marshals are saying, that it was a "preceived" threat,...... now

[TX-RAT]

39. I never said it either.

[seabeyond]

50. no you didnt. but i was responding to a post that did state that

and you responded to me

[LostinVA]

27. But no one ever claimed he ran through and airport yelling bomb

And it's well on the way to being debunked that he cried "bomb" on the plane. You're basing everything on falsehoods.

And, I find it deplorable that my tax dollars are used to "put a bullet in his ass." Geez. Think you watch enough high testosterone movies?

Nice nasty remark on mental illness, therapy, and psychiatry. Shows you know NOTHING about psychosis, etc.

I haven't put anyone ignore in about two weeks. I think it;s time I did.

[MichaelHarris]

32. Only the sane kill people?

[Kingshakabobo]

28. What if it turns out he didn't say BOMB?

What if it turns out the FAMs are lying to cover their own asses?

What if it turns out they shot a guy for having a panic attack and carrying a *gasp* back-pack in an airport?

What if they shot him while he was merely fleeing the airplane?

Will you still be so supportive?


I think I'll wait for the investigation and video, if any.

[burythehatchet]

46. no need to wonder

http://www.wftv.com/news/5503137/detail.html

[MichaelHarris]

56. A man on a plane might not have heard what was being said

in the jetway, next time you're on a plane listen closely, can you hear discussions in a noisy airport jetway?

"At some point, he uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb," said Miami Federal Air Marshals official James Bauer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4508432.stm

We should see what eyewitnesses in the jetway have to say.

[stickdog]

153. The guy had cleared every security check. Nobody heard "BOMB"

except those who work for corporations who could be sued for wrongful death.

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. pesky little facts

A Central Florida man is trying to set the record straight. He said that Rigoberto Alpizar never shouted that he had a bomb. In fact, he said, he didn't say anything. The local traveler heard and saw the whole thing unfold and doesn't like how it's been depicted.

<skip>

He had a great view of the air marshal on the aisle, nine rows back.

<skip>

The Winter Park architect, whose profession requires attention to detail, doesn't like how some have taken liberty with what really happened on board Flight 924.

"I want the truth to be known and it frustrates me to read that he was running down the plane, flailing and screaming that he had a bomb. That is not the case," he said.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. No question

The air marshals aren't there to diagnose and treat the mentally ill. They're there to keep the crew and passengers safe.

It's that simple.

If someone claims to have a bomb, refuses the marshals' order and proceeds to reach for his bag, he's committing suicide by cop.

I have no problem with that.

[MichaelHarris]

41. Thank you

for that blast of sanity in an insane situation.

[LandOLincoln]

45. I second that "thank you" and suggest everyone take a

deep breath and read the post below mine.

[seabeyond]

57. what if there was no mention of bomb? n/t

[stickdog]

125. But is that what happened here, OLL?

I'd suggest that everyone wait until all the facts are in rather than discussing their favored "straw case."

[Turn CO Blue]

37. TOTALLY AGREE! I work for an airline -- /ON RANT!

and the series of threads trashing the FAM's and making this poor confused man out to be some kind of martyr and making this terrible tradegy out to be in indictment against law enforcement is one of the few times that I have angry with DU'ers.

I know it was tragic. I feel sincerely for this family. But I also feel for the airline industry and for that FAM who will remember that man's face for the rest of his haunted life.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of consumers being so two-faced about the security (TSA) and the airlines. They rip them up and down for doing everything wrong. They want more and more security and first-class, no-wait service with a smile and better wages for ticket agents and pilot unions, but they hypocritically want it all to happen for $29 fares and with no fees and without any inconvenience to themselves, without being searched or having to wait in any line for two pathetic minutes! Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites! I once had someone on a thread tell me that she thought that a $239 sale fare for coast-to-coast trip was "really expensive" and that airlines should be able to price it lower and it was more than she could afford! Guess what! You couldn't even buy a bus ticket or rent a car for that amount of money! Arrrgggh! Hypocrites! How are the airlines supposed to keep decent wages with the fares so low, and the costs so high? You know, one airplane costs $35 million dollars, right? It takes $250K to pay a pilot, don't you know?

Those FAM's have made the employees at my airline feel about a million times better since 9/11. I guarantee that all the screamers going on right now about how the FAM's have turned into Gestapo and are giving death sentences -- are also among the people who were screaming for the govt and airlines to "DO MORE" about security after 9/11.

The airline industry just can't win.

/RANT

[knitter4democracy]

51. You're totally right.

Btw, where did she get such a good price on the ticket? ;)

It's a horrible situation all around. Those FAMs and their loved ones are suffering, the witnesses (both airline staff and customers) are suffering, and the victim's family is suffering. It's just bad, and I hope everyone involved can find a way of personal peace and rest.

Thank you for working as hard as you do. I always love to travel by plane. It's fun, it's pretty fast, and it's a great way to people watch. :D

[seabeyond]

52. i couldnt agree with you more. seems odd with my posts

in this thread. but you are right on. but..... i think it was siliness to suggest that we could prevent all things in life. i believe it was asking for something that couldnt be. i didnt blame airlines with 9/11. i think it is absurd the expectation on airlines. and i think a lot of the thing being employed is a waste of time, and anxiety builder, creating a horribly hostile environment

[seabeyond]

55. justify, the marshal, after shooting the man, putting guns to customers

heads and point their loaded gun at passengers. what is that shit. how do we validate that shit. what was the purpose of those marshals then turning on passengers to intimidate, if this part of the story is true. then truly how can anyone say there is not a problem with this. cause i dont give a fuck what is going on if anyone pointed a loaded gun at my child sitting next to me on an airplane i would be so fuckin pissed,..... but, i must not say a word. am i allowed to glare at the person pointin a gun. or do i lower my eyes, nad not meet eyes.

[insanity]

60. if this is true, than there is a problem

Intimidation of innocents is a hell of a lot different than the situation that has been laid out thus far.

[seabeyond]

70. it has been laid out, all day and yesterday i believe.

you havent read it. but yes.... it is out there. threads have been on the board

[MichaelHarris]

75. but

if the word bomb was said by this man when the Marshall's started securing the plane how did they know who the "innocents" were? Let's say the man did say he had a bomb, after he was secured without any confirmation they had no idea who this man was traveling with. Sure a woman saying she was his wife was there but this is a very high pressure situation and we are not in their shoes, securing the plane and passengers is always a top priority.

The very fact that the passengers were secured in this manner makes me believe that the man did make a threat with a bomb.

[seabeyond]

86. lets say if the man did say he had a bomb then they were

securing the plane. lets say if they shot the man, saw he didnt have a bomb. had no information on a bomb and stuck a loaded gun to a passengers head and then pointed guns at rest of passenger, that there is a problem. then lets address the problem, if there is one and not pretend it is ok to stick a loaded gun to an americans head to intimidate.

or for your preceived safety, is this ok with you? it isnt with me.

[stickdog]

131. 2 guys gun down a defenseless guy who is slightly freaking out.

Do you award them medals or clemency?

[liberalnurse]

168. Lets continue to examine the responsibility

of the accompanying family. They never informed the Airline of his mental illness and the potential for uncontrolled outburst, irrational behavior his non-compliance of prescribed medication for such a condition. No one was informed. I apparently was a family secret.

They are also responsible for the outcome...

[stickdog]

175. Exactly. Guns don't kill people. And people with guns don't kill people.

No, it's the families of the mentally ill who don't sufficiently inform the airline of their loved ones' potential of having a panic attack who actually kill people.

I mean, that poor guy's wife may as well have pulled those triggers -- six times -- herself!

[liberalnurse]

190. As I said in an earlier post.....

They had a responsibility to inform the crew of his illness or when he displayed symptoms of instability. That could of averted the shooting. The wife withheld essential health information. I don't know why you can't accept that key component?

[stickdog]

198. Have we now started a neverending War on Terror Attacks?

Whatever "responsibilities" the victim and victim's family had in your mind, a man getting riddled with bullets for not discharging them seems, to me at least, a tad extreme.

Just think for a moment here. The guy was already PAST the security gates. He was running OFF the plane, and his wife was yelling that he's bi-polar. No one else on the plane thought he was a threat or responded like he was a threat except the FAMs.

I'm just saying that running off a plane in a panic should not be punishable by death. I'm not convicting the FAMs because I realize that their job is hard and that people make mistakes. But your pegging the victim's family with "the responsibility" for the victim's death is as absurd as Repukes blaming the floating corpses of New Orleans for not heeding advance warnings.

[Bluerthanblue]

199. perhaps because of the kind of bigoted twisted

predjuce against consumers that has been displayed for everyone to read on this board, coming from all kinds of folks who claim 'knowledge' experience and wisdom.
Why stop at mental illness nurse? why not include anyone who is an alcoholic, diabetic, heart patient, child molester, ex felon, hell, lets make everyone have to give their life history before getting on a plane-

The right to privacy is void for those people who YOU say 'might' be dangerous- fuck that-
How many mentally ill people have killed people on commercial aircraft?

forgive me for my blunt angry reply- but you are burned out- hope you are either retired, or considering a career change.

[liberalnurse]

207. On the contrary, being a responsible

health care provider is exactly why I am emphasizing the need for those with a chronic illness to identify themselves when in such a vulnerable environment. As with Airlines, everyone is given the opportunity to share health needs if indicated when they obtain a ticket. Reasonable accommodations are a common practice with a multitude of public services....such an example would be a hotel....I hope you can sit back and think about it yourself and know I am right.

Think of all the alert systems utilized by the chronically ill....ID bracelets for the diabetic, epileptic, cardiac, Alzheimer's, and allergies. My point is effective communication when ones health is an issue is an essential life saver.

Oh, I am an actively practicing RN in nurse management and at the patient bedside. I am also a leader with health care legislation through my nursing association. I make a difference.

[SPKrazy]

65. They supposedly thought the guy really might have had a bomb

and how would they know that he didn't have accomplices, or that he wasn't a distraction.

I wouldn't have liked it, but I would have done what the people with the guns said.

Flying on a plane isn't a right, it is a privilege, and privileges are not guaranteed.

[seabeyond]

71. sad sad sad. next they will stick a gun in kids face

and you will say, it is a privilege

[SPKrazy]

249. I will say what is a privilege?

Are you saying that flying is a "right"?

[stickdog]

136. Bush supposedly thought Saddam had WMDs.

When you fire six shots (or start a war), maybe you ought to err on the side of caution?

[Catchawave]

92. What do you know about FAM training ?

Post 9-11 ? In those tragic MIA moments following the "threat" and "take down" there could be 4 more back in the cabin...? There's hundred's of innocent passengers in the concourse (on the other side of the jetway), a hundred or so back in the cabin...what would you do? Your job is to protect the passengers and the aircraft, you go back to the cabin and act like an asshole right? Right.

[seabeyond]

122. not right. i dont want to hear another argument from those on the

board with "it is better over there than here". we must terrorize the innocent in iraq to protect the whole, because our soldiers dont know.

this is your personal safety on htis and you show you are right there with the right on their perception of iraq, only you want it in your country to protect you on a flight

[SPKrazy]

250. Man, you are determined to make it the FAM's fault

That poster said nothing about "it is better over there than here"

You are just not looking at this from the perspective of a split second decision that could have meant the difference between one person being dead and a lot of people (including the FAM) being dead if he had a bomb

geeez

[liberalnurse]

67. Hey there......

I feel your pain.......I support your rant.O8) :hug:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

87. Great rant! Thank you

from another airline employee who is sick unto death of all the things you so eloquently and truthfully ranted about.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

116. I worked for an airline, too,

a long time ago - during the Deregulation era - as an assistant general counsel.

Since I was the new kid on the block, I got all the goofy passenger lawsuits. You would not believe why people sued - that they weren't allowed to bring their motorbike on board, that the silicone (this was before implants, when women just had silicone shot into their breasts) migrated during the pressure changes on board and they ended up with, well, breasts on their necks and shoulders, people who claimed the flight crew stole their dentures, and on and on.

They were usually persuaded to drop their causes of action after we offered them some free tickets.

But, yeah, it's an industry that gets far more than its share of abuse, when the passengers haven't a clue as to how hard the airline personnel work to make sure those same people are kept safe.

I say the air marshals did exactly what they were supposed to do, and the lamentations can go on, but there's nothing that will ever stop me from wanting anyone who threatens an airliner and its passengers shot right there.

[goodhue]

62. Why did they think he had a bomb?

eom

[goodhue]

94. I still don't understand why they thought he had a bomb.

Anyone?

[bloom]

63. I haven't been trashing the FAM

but you know what - they killed someone.

And I don't think it's reasonable to shoot someone just because they are agitated.


Just like it wasn't reasonable for there to be a shoot to kill order in NOLA with the flooding.

Some people around here stood up for that, too.

[Pastiche423]

64. W/the news that is coming out today

it is obvious, to me, that the Air Marshals not only shot an innocent man to death, but they LIED about him saying he had a bomb.

I'm fucking sick of the shoot 1st, ask questions later state of our country.

When I 1st heard of this story, I felt so deeply sorry for this man and his wife. I have PTSD due to abduction and torture that left me paralyzed for life.

Panic attacks are a huge part of that syndrome. I could feel his fear and absolute need to flee (get off the plane). If you have never gone through such an episode, you do not know WTF you are talking about.

I want my country back.

:cry:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

74. Bet you didn't know

that sky marshals (as they were originally known) began flying in 1961, after plane hijacking began to occur with a certain regularity.

In fact, JFK was the President who instituted the program and he was also the man who signed the legislation calling for the death penalty for hijackers.

So, if you think this sad incident somehow means your country was taken from you, you're about forty years too late.

[Pastiche423]

80. WTF does Kennedy

have to do w/what happened?

He din't shoot the innocent man. The trigger hungry FAMs did.

[Texasgal]

83. Trigger hungry?

ONE INCIDENT constitutes a "trigger hungry FAM?" :wtf:

[Pastiche423]

90. The air marshalls who shot and killed the innocent man

were trigger hungry (or happy).

Is that better?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

98. No,

they were doing their jobs, and for that, I am grateful.

I want them to shoot to kill anyone who claims to have a bomb.

It's their jobs, and I want them to do their jobs.

[Pastiche423]

112. Not keeping up w/the story, eh?

He never claimed he had a bomb:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-planefolo0905dec09,0,3421926.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

http://www.wftv.com/news/5503137/detail.html

[Texasgal]

121. YES! YES! YES!

I completely AGREE!!!

Whether or not the man had a bomb is not the POINT. There was a perceived threat... The FAM's were DOING Their JOBS!!!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

126. You GET IT!

You know what's funny? If this guy really did have a bomb, and had blown up a bunch of people, would these folks be lamenting in the same way the fact that the air marshals hadn't figured him out and shot him?

Your clear (and, might I add, brilliant) reasoning wins you the coveted Downhill Skiing Squirrel Award:

[stickdog]

141. You know what's funny? That you think a PERCEIVED threat

-- even if it's based on nothing more than trigger-happy paranoia -- justifies a homicide.

There's NO EVIDENCE that this guy looked like he had a bomb OR claimed to have a bomb.

[Texasgal]

146. Were you there?

Do you have ANY idea what "really" happened?

I don't either... I am just wondering WHY anyone would think that the marshal's shot and killed someone for fun!!! There MUST have been a reason!

[stickdog]

164. Yes, and Rodney King was also beaten for a reason.

And we invaded Iraq for a reason.

And we elected Bush twice for a reason.

And the WTC towers were attacked, killing thousands, for a reason.

Read this:

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html

[Texasgal]

187. Ahhh...

So I guess that makes you an EXPERT on this case?

C'mon... we still don't really know what happened.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

147. There's no evidence

that a "homicide" occurred.

I have no information about what "looked" like anything, and you have no information that anyone was "murdered."

The man disregarded a shouted command from men with weapons. Personally, it sounds to me like suicide by cop, but who knows?

They did their jobs. I don't find any of it funny, and I can't understand why you would. But, as far as I'm concerned, a perceived threat is to be taken seriously, and when the men charged with keeping the travelling public safe believe that their charges are in danger, yeah, they do their jobs.

[stickdog]

154. The MAN is DEAD. That is the DEFINITION of HOMICIDE!

Or didn't law school teach you that?

Read this article:

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html

You are really too much. A man was shot DEAD by a couple of bumbling Barney Fife types for having a god damn panic attack.

Two questions:

Is "disregarding a shouted command from men with weapons" now a capital crime in YOUR Amerika, ol' leftie?

And, if so, wouldn't you agree that we are already living under "marshal law"?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

156. Oh, honey..........

Your rudeness just won you a great big Ignore.

[stickdog]

157. Oh, baby..............

[dxstone]

246. I'm with YOU, sticky!

Then again, you OR I could have a bomb... hell, either one of us could BE a bomb...

"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit... it's the only way to be sure."

Sure is a lotta free-floatin' paranoia around here lately, huh?
My favorite song from King Crimson's first album is finally coming true:
21st Century Schizoid Man.

[Texasgal]

150. Why THANK YOU!!!

What a WONDERFUL award!!!

*I'd like to THANK all of the people who got me here!!! :P

Thanks OLL... these threads have gotten pretty ridiculous in my opinion. *sigh*

[OldLeftieLawyer]

97. Yeah, well,

some people have their own agendae, and they're not about to let reality interfere.

It's not you, T.

;)

[MichaelHarris]

108. I give up with these guys

I'm just going to scratch my fun parts and eat Cheetoes.

[liberalnurse]

139. That is the truth!

This is a national board, and only a few can really engage in reasonable discussion; to agree to disagree or to respect a different opinion. I'm relieved to see some sense of logic from a few such as you.....O8)

[Bluerthanblue]

201. ah, i see, logic only applies

to those who agree with you. Hmmmmm..... abit of a narcissist are we? Where pray tell have you engaged to 'reasonably disagree' or 'respect a different opinion'?
Maybe i've missed it- you seem to have a very SET agenda-

[liberalnurse]

208. No, I can't give you credit there.

Obviously, this is all WAY above your thinking cap. :nopity: :think:

[Bluerthanblue]

210. I'm not surprised, or

impressed by your "level" of comprehension, and your "higher" thinking, OR your 'Graduate level' education- Your words, and sarcasm here display your professional skills and knowledge, as well as your ability to 'reasonably' and 'rationally' discuss issues with people who disagree with you.
Stroke your back, we're buddy, buddy- on the 'same level' But... have the audacity to counter your OPINION and everyone is 'beneath' you- Hey that's ok- whatever floats your boat Mam- we no'account bottom feeders see things you'll never lower yourself to comprehend. And that's YOUR loss.

[liberalnurse]

215. Now once again I can not give you credit....

At least you try.......You see, you are not conversing or discussing the topic when you post to me. That flaw is easily identified. You are playing a familiar childhood word game where one chooses to "flame and attack the poster" verses insightful feedback. It's the "Bill O'Rielly " style of posting. Let me explain it to you.......

The poster is compelled to insult someone when it has no relevance to the topic. You have that down. The poster stoops to personal insults when he/she can not feel satisfied. Such behavior may suggest one has feelings of inadequacy....Am I getting warm?

See your first reply to me in post 199: You just had to have your orgasm.


"forgive me for my blunt angry reply- but you are burned out- hope you are either retired, or considering a career change."

[Bluerthanblue]

225. perchance

madame professor might want to check and see what this posters actual first reply to you in this post truly was.
Then feel free to go on patting yourself on your back- and play with yourself all you like- you seem to do it well. As for attacking posters, you appear to have your Masters in that art.
Your comments regarding insightful feedback are amusing, but crass, you couldn't be further off the mark with your prediction of what sexually stimulates me- sadism isn't a turn on, here- Interesting what one reveals when they project their own thoughts onto others though- but then you'd know that being in the field you are-

Good luck nurse Ratchet-

[liberalnurse]

236. Just to let you know....

Your posting is incongruent with your signature line......

You don't practice what you preach......I'm hopeful you will work on this character defect.


snip>

Good luck nurse Ratchet-

Nurturing is something very special, and vital for the survival of all life, and it doesn't end at age 18.- We should ALL nurture each other- when we do that- there WILL be peace.

[Bluerthanblue]

241. you are absolutely right-

and while i am angry with you- and do feel like your replies are something nurse Ratchet would come out with, and while your cutting remarks through out this thread piss me off- that is NO EXCUSE
for me to reply in kind.

or in an unkind manner-

And i did- and i am accountable for my words-
I apologize for replying to you in a manner that is both rude and hurtful-

I'm sorry not to have demonstrated more self-restraint, and kindness.

I will attempt to refrain from posting to you, or anyone else when doing so would serve only to hurt back- or vent my frustration.

I am ashamed of the anger i feel towards those who behave in ways that wound and cut, and that i am not able to control myself and self-edit my written replies.

I am speaking with sincerity- not sarcasm- I'm sorry to have acted so offensivly.

blu

[liberalnurse]

255. That was an emotionally moving and sincere post.

I graciously accept your apology. I too wish to continue conversing with you in a civil, productive fashion. I wish to extend my personal apology to you if I appeared any way discourteous.:pals:

[Bluerthanblue]

256. peace- and

thank you.

i don't want to hurt anyone.
The only person i control is myself, and sometimes i do that very poorly.
It helps to be reminded of that.

wishing you nothing but well-
blu

[OldLeftieLawyer]

161. Use tongs

I've given "Ignore" a good workout tonight.

And still people insist on trying to respond.

Go figure.

Any way you cut it, it's a sad situation. But it's not as sad as a plane blowing up.

[stickdog]

189. Right. And the thousands of deaths in Iraq aren't as sad as

finding out Hussein had WMDs because of a mushroom cloud ...

[AgadorSparticus]

254. what plane blew up b/c of bombs? I'm curious.

or are you referring to 9-11?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. Well,

there is a timetable there that you might have understood.

I suppose you didn't, but I tried my best.

I wish you well.

[MichaelHarris]

118. Nooooo

I agree with you, I'm on your side in this issue.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

123. Oh, no, honey -

I wasn't responding to you, and, yeah, we're on the same side - absolutely.

No, no, no. It's ok, baby.

Here - the pussycat will assure you:

[MichaelHarris]

151. yeaaaaaa

the pussycat, she's all boozed up, just the way I like my pussycats.

[MoonRiver]

72. I agree, but I don't think it's going to end.

Even though AMs have been around longer than 9/11 and bush's selection, they are now being linked to the BFEE. I've been on DU long enough to know that once the conspiracy snowball starts rolling, it's pointless to try and stop its course.
:eyes:

[under_snow_in_NY]

89. armchairing

My brother is a cop in the city and the reality is those guys have split seconds to make tough decisions that you have to live with the rest of your life granted your decisions don't end your life early. It's too bad that the comfort of our homes and computer screens make us think that it is such an easy decision to make. nobody here, myself included would not want to be the one making that call

[OldLeftieLawyer]

99. Hindsight, they say,

is always 20-20.

And, as my publisher says, "Everyone with a pencil is either an editor or a writer. Usually, they're neither."

[under_snow_in_NY]

100. exactly, those hwo make those decisions are much better than myself

and I love that picture

[OldLeftieLawyer]

102. Exactly....

And welcome to DU!!!

Here's the REAL picture, by the way:

[under_snow_in_NY]

105. the most beautiful photo I've ever laid eyes on!!!!!!

[liberalnurse]

170. Let me take this moment to thank your brother

for his community service. Yes, they have seconds if they are lucky when such scenarios arise. The big mouths here have no clue!

[Dances with Cats]

101. I never asked for their "protection"

They can stay on the ground as far as I'm concerned...As for the person who began the thread, if you think the threads should stop why in the HELL did you POST one?

[insanity]

195. Two reasons

1. I wanted to get the debate centralized so I threw out a subject line people would jump in for.
2. I also think that people are incorrectly blaming two people who simply did thier job.

[DancingBear]

104. Does anyone find it problematic that many of the Air Marshalls

are ex-prison guards, and it has been reported that many of them were dismissed from said positions because of numerous disciplinary write-ups?

I find it way to early to make a decision re: culpability here, but that bit of information gave me pause. If you have ever worked in any type of prison situation (and I did just out of college) the prison guard mentality is an entity unto itself (imagine "love it or leave it' with a hair-trigger temper and an absolute black vs. white worldview).

As of right now, I still view the incident with skepticism, as the media has this unfailing tendency to make everything Dewey defeats Truman.

I will reserve judgment, but the prison guard component is very troublesome.

[under_snow_in_NY]

107. where did you hear that, I'm interested to know, seriously

[DancingBear]

110. It was all over AAR today - especially Randi Rhodes

I do not know of any TV sources reporting it.

[under_snow_in_NY]

115. I don't listen to her

I don't really listen to AAR either, Ed Schults that's about it, and other shows throughout the day. I have to admit that I'm a sports nut and that's what I usually listen to. As well as a wide range of other political shows, good and bad

[OldLeftieLawyer]

111. If your information and reasoning are solid,

then what would explain this shooting as the first one since ................... well, when was the last Air Marshal shooting of a passenger?

[DancingBear]

132. I can't answer that

Nor do I know what the job history of previous Air Marshalls is/was. I am curious, however, if Air Marshalls in the "olden days" carried weapons on the planes. I had always thought that that was verboten back then, due to the pressurization issues in the cabins. If anyone knows the answer to this I would appreciate it.

I'm guessing, however, that the influx of prison guards (and the corresponding mentality) is tied into the Bush administration and their inability to maintain even the slightest bit of oversight on, well, anything.

Side note: While working in radio frequency ID, just before I 'retired" to build furniture, I did contract work in both D.C. airports, and worked with a lot of the TSA baggage-screening guys. Did you know that peanut butter resembles C4, even down to its density?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

143. They were armed

It was not made public, but those of us in airline management knew it, and I suspect all the line workers knew, too. Not the public, though.

Yeah, the whole screening thing is just a joke - consider the matter of air cargo, eh?

I now write novels. We're both in very good second careers, are we not?

[DancingBear]

148. Yes we are,

except when I must tell potential Great Falls clients (those of us who live in NoVA know these folks well) that they have no taste and I wouldn't sign my name to their proposed project on a bet.

Check that - that's when I'm at my best. :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

149. You just won

The Pussycat!!! (Yeah, I know all about GF ::: gag :::)

(You're always at your best.......)

[DancingBear]

152. Thanks mom

My best to the fermented feline....

[dcfirefighter]

179. They test for explosives by chem signature now

and I can imagine the Great Falls folks are quite detatched from reality. You've a website?

[DancingBear]

218. I worked at Dulles in '03

and they were just starting chem signature detection - I'm assuming it is much farther along at this point then when I was there.

No website - I get most if not all of my work from referrals. The GF folks are very odd, but also very chatty, which is good for me. :)

[liberalnurse]

194. I'll say this much......

when the real shit goes down...I want THEM on my side.

[stickdog]

119. Exactly. It's the sick guy's fault for not acting normal enough.

In a post-9/11 world, that is a capital crime.

[seabeyond]

124. exactly. and what is preceived threat. right now i want to know

before i step into an airport. am i allowed ot be grumpy. must my eyes stay down to not have eye to eye. tell me now the rules of the game. we seem to make them up as we go and then are suppose to cheer and support

[under_snow_in_NY]

128. how much of the evidence do you have in front of you to

make that assertion. News reports don't count since they are usually wrong for the first 2-4 days. Once they make sure they get "the story out first" they refit the story with the truth later on. Regardless if you like of dislike the story or reporting this is how it happens everytime. Because everyone complains about the accuracy of the media and ther bias except when it benifits them

[in_cog_ni_to]

127. On Randi Rhodes today a cop, I think?, called in and made an EXCELLENT

point. If you think someone has a bomb, YOU DO NOT SHOOT AT THEM! They could have their body wrapped with a bomb and blow EVERYTHING in the area up. The whole story makes no sense. WHY? Because they are LYING. They shot an innocent, unarmed man 5 or 6 times? Come on...they deserve to be trashed.

[under_snow_in_NY]

130. You think he was a cop?

If he was does that mean that he is correct. If they shoot him and it blows up, wasn't he not on the plane or in the terminal. So they minimized the possibilty of numbers injured

[in_cog_ni_to]

135. The man who called Randi Rhodes' radio show was a cop.

One of the first things he was taught in training was NEVER, EVER shoot at someone you suspect may have a bomb. Why would the Air Marshall shoot at a man with a bomb? They are lying.

[under_snow_in_NY]

140. ????

they could be, I don't know. It's just too early to tell with stuff like this because the media has no concern of accuracy, just getting as many "new details" out as quick as possible and that's it. We'll see sometime soon I'm sure, one way or the other

[under_snow_in_NY]

134. nice dog by the way

[in_cog_ni_to]

138. Thank you.

:)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

158. He was ordered to lay down

He was reaching for his bag, against shouted orders.

No one claimed he had a bomb on his body. You're just pulling that one out of thin air.

The deal is that you do what the air marshals tell you to do when you've claimed you've got a bomb in an airliner/terminal jetway. If you disregard that shouted command, you assume the risk.

I really do think it's suicide by cop.

And, you have no way of knowing if anyone is lying, so let's see what evolves.

[stickdog]

162. Because we are now living under MARSHAL LAW!

Not doing exactly what authorities tell you to do exactly when they tell you to do it is now a capital crime.

It's simply the price we must pay for having such a free society.

[Texasgal]

167. Oh good GOD!

RELAX... we are not living under "marshal law"!

This was ONE isolated incident. It's a tragedy, nobody wins in this case.

But really... to make the claim, or shall I say the FREAK OUT that we are living under marshal law is preposterous at best...

Relax.

[stickdog]

169. Sorry, I freaked out for minute.

Please don't riddle me with bullets.

[Texasgal]

171. You guys are getting more and more hilarious with every minute..

Tell you what.

Why don't you EXPLAIN to me why a FAM would just RANDOMLY kill a person on an airplane with NO APPARENT reason in front of a full flight of passengers.

Can you ANSWER THAT? Why?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

174. There was a reason.

They sensed he had a bomb.

[stickdog]

177. OldLeftieLawyer already explained it.

The guy they shot didn't follow their orders.

[Texasgal]

182. Exactly...

Sorry... but if a law enforcement person WITH GUNS DRAWN orders you TO DROP... you better do it.

This is a very SAD lesson.

[stickdog]

192. And if you CAN'T, then your illness SHOULD be punishable by

death?

Just wondering if that's really your bottom line on this.

[Texasgal]

185. Did you answer my question?

Can you do that? Please?

[stickdog]

193. They shot him because he didn't follow their orders.

Non-compliance = death = "marshal law"

[Texasgal]

205. Non-compliance=death=marshal law?

Your joking right?

Let me ask you this... just how should our police forces handle non-compliance?

Should we hold their hands and sing KUMBAYA?

[stickdog]

209. Hopefully with due rationality and restraint.

A sick and completely innocent man is now dead. He was shot six times although neither he nor his actions posed any threat to anyone. I'm not saying we should hang the Air Marshals. All I'm saying is that it APPEARS that they made a very tragic mistake, and their employers should strongly consider reassigning them to less potentially fatal duties.

You can't seem to imagine any law officer using deadly force without sufficient justification which leaves me wondering what sort of "Officer Friendly" world you inhabit.

My bottom line is simply that panic attacks shouldn't be punishable by death. What is yours?

[Texasgal]

212. Gee...I completely agree with you

your right...panic attacks should not equal death...

However... how did the FAM KNOW that this person was having a "panic attack"?

[liberalnurse]

183. Okay.....

you have me......:rofl:

Lets see if simple, direct questions can be answered? That would be progress....:thumbsup: :popcorn:

[Texasgal]

184. Right?

Notice how the question was NEVER answered??

I'm still waiting! :)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

173. I sense you have a bomb.

[dcfirefighter]

181. Wrong. If he has a bomb, you shoot him in the head. n/t

[soothsayer]

176. Alot of people who go into law enforcement are a-holes. We all

know that. I'm sure MOST are fine, likeable, nice, level-headed, but some are not. Don't know about this trigger-happy fellow, but mebbe he was one of the ones who are more than happy for a chance to shoot.

[Texasgal]

186. And alot of "peace loving liberals"

are assholes too... what's your point?

[QC]

180. Tookie Good, Air Marshals Bad! n/t

[stickdog]

191. Air Marshals killing Bad, state killing Bad, Tookie killing Very Bad!

Who is being inconsistent here?

[RedOnce]

188. I agree that it was entirely avoidable...

I support law enforcement. They do a dangerous job and too often find themselves in a no-win situation. But, there was no bomb, had there been no FAMs on board everyone would have survived.

[insanity]

196. Wrong

There has been atleast one instance of mob rule on airliners in which an agitated man was killed. Your point is entirely speculation.

[RedOnce]

203. So, you are suggesting that had there been no FAMs on board

the passengers would have chased after him and killed him in the jet way or terminal?

[Catchawave]

200. Just got off the phone with the MIA Field office....

Carry on DU , carry on :popcorn: :hide: :rofl:

[Mr_Spock]

204. Those guys will be haunted by this for the rest of their lives...

They have to face the consequences of their actions - right or wrong. There are few people who can shoot and kill another human being and be the same person afterwards. It's a tragedy all-around.

[Texasgal]

206. Yes.. you are correct...

there is really no happy ending here.

[Tactical Progressive]

213. I agree

Anybody who is acting agitated, or suspicious, or different in this day and age of pure terror, should be shot dead. No questions asked. And I think this should be in large measure up to citizens who are armed, as there aren't a sufficient number of law enforcement officials to thwart these potential terrorists. There are alot more targets than just airport gangways out there people.

Just yesterday I saw this guy reach into his bag - he looked annoyed, like he may have had a bomb and it didn't go off like it was supposed to. If I'd only had my gun I could have taken care of the situation. After all, there were hundreds of innocent people at risk in the mall where this occurred. Children too.

I knew I could have come to DU for immediate, unquestioning moral support for such an act of saving potentially hundreds of innocent lives. I'm so sorry I didn't have a gun. Sure, the bomb didn't go off, but it might have, if indeed there had been a bomb. Think about that! What would you be saying to me then?

Anyway, I won't be forgetting my firearm next time, you can be sure of that. It would be nice if you people could give me some support beforehand that I will be fully justified in view of the number of lives at stake. Can I get some assurances? From the sounds of some of the people around here that shouldn't be a problem.

[RedOnce]

217. You make some excellent points...

in between the lines.

[NJmaverick]

219. I agree 100%

This FAM bashing needs to stop.

[leesa]

220. The witnesses said he was silent and sitting quietly throughout the entire

flight. Pre-flight....when they said he was "agitated" the airport film showed him quiet and eating a sandwich??? He panicked when they singled him out...these yahoos put guns to the backs of the heads of other passengers for Gods sakes!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

223. Yes, they did,

and that's SOP. The reason for it is to ensure that the suspect had no partners on board the plane. That's the same reason anyone who pulled out a cell phone got it knocked out of their hands - because cell phones can act as detonators.

I fail to see why people can't accept that planes being blown up and flown into buildings were the reasons why we have to take these precautions now. Understand them, like them or not, but realize that this is our traveling reality now.

If the guy had had a bomb, if the jetliner had been blown up, the first honkings we'd hear - especially here on DU - would be, no doubt, about the conspiracy to make sure no air marshals were on board because "someone" wanted that particular plane blown up.

Or some such absurd second-guessing.

They did their jobs. And that's what I want them to do. If someone has been shot because of a bomb threat, in the jetway that connects to my plane, and marshals come on board with guns pulled, treating everyone as if they're a possible collaborator, I can take that. I can handle it, because it's my life they're intent on saving.

[raccoon]

224. Thank you.

"If the guy had had a bomb, if the jetliner had been blown up, the first honkings we'd hear - especially here on DU - would be, no doubt, about the conspiracy to make sure no air marshals were on board because "someone" wanted that particular plane blown up."

Yes.

[seabeyond]

230. so a person dies for an if. we are killing lots and lots of people for

ifs. probably more people are dying for the if's..... than if the if actually came true. and the if, isnt......but still the people die. damn good thing we are stopping all those if's from possibly happening

the logic in this is just amazing

[seabeyond]

231. this..... i would hate to be a marshal deciding life or death

well hell ya...... it better be a tough decision. after all not to dismiss a persons life, it had better be damn well hard to decide if a person lives or dies. why would you expect anything less. i would expect it if one of these men pointed the gun at me. i would hope it would be a "tough" decision

personally i think military and now police are conditioning our men not to feel, for it NOT to be so very tough to decide. and i think a lot of people in this thread have conditioned themselves for it not to be tough who lives or dies

and THAT is the true scary for me, in an airport. yawl that say, shouldnt have looked that protector of ours in the eye. put head down. no fast moves. these are the rules. i didnt follow the rules. i am dead

[dxstone]

244. I just read this entire thread...

And couldn't help noticing. Ol' Leftie, that no matter how many times people on this thread corrected your mistaken notion that the man had or claimed to have a bomb, you simply don't acknowledge it, and go on and on about a purely hypothetical case that has little significant resemblance to this one.
You don't acknowledge that he'd been through all the security checkpoints and screenings already; if they can find your nail clippers, how could they POSSIBLY miss a BOMB???
Why are you doing that? Why are you arguing a completely different case than the one all the rest of us are discussing here?
Just curious...

Cuz it sure seems like what you're doing is a recipe for endlessly whistling in the dark and inventing enemies at every turn...

[derby378]

221. You should have heard Randi Rhodes yesterday

Some of those "Air Marshals" should be trashed, and royally so.

[mondo joe]

226. What I learned from the Tookie debates is that the Air Marshal is just the

product of his environment, and had he been brought up with more opportunity and support he'd be a model citizen who never shot anyone.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

227. I'm sorry, but this is going to end up as a bad shoot....

...too many passengers are stating that he was calm during the flight, and that he never mentioned the word "bomb". Additionally, his wife tried to tell anyone that would listen that he was bi-polar and had not taken his medication. If he was actually suspected of carrying a bomb, why then did the AMs shoot him six times with a chance that one of the bullets could have set off the explosive?

This is a bad shoot...and I don't care how the AMs, the FBI, and the media try to spin this.

[bloom]

234. "In other words: Comply and submit, or die."

"As if being terrorized at gunpoint weren't enough, the passengers were marched off the plane with their hands on their head and then repeatedly prompted by federal authorities to say that Alpizar claimed to have a bomb in his backpack. According to Daniel Adams of the Federal Air Marshal Service, prior to the shooting Alpizar had been running up and down the aisles of the plane shouting that he had a bomb in his possession – a claim not verified by any of the witnesses, and disputed by several of them....

Eyewitnesses described how Alpizar had been ordered by the marshals to fall flat on the ground, which he couldn't do because he was wearing a fanny pack. Some observers believed that Alpizar was attempting to adjust his fanny pack in order to comply with the demand when he was gunned down....

The Washington Times, one of the Bush regime's most credulous and servile media shills, denounced those who engaged in “second-guessing” the actions of the air marshals. Embracing the unsubstantiated and self-serving account offered by the marshals service, the paper editorialized: “A marshal who hestitates to shoot someone behaving as Mr. Alpizar did is not doing his job.... Mr. Alpizar's death is a reminder of how seriously the marshals treat airline security. We should all take due notice.”

In other words: Comply and submit, or die. If you happen to be the innocent victim of the mistaken application of federal “protocols,” you'll be used as an object lesson, while your murderers (no other word fits) are extolled as brave defenders of the public."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_2791.shtml

[Rich Hunt]

228. spot the moralism

"This wouldn't have happened if he'd taken his meds"

This isn't sympathy for the so-called mentally ill - this is Nazism.

Who knows if he was really 'bipolar' (whatever that is) or if he was just distressed.

You imply that if someone is determined by some unnamed authority to be 'bipolar',
they owe it to society to take their meds...for the rest of their lives.

That is fascism.

[EFerrari]

262. He was confirmed to be bi-polar and BP suffers

decompensate both on and off their meds. So, yes, this is fascism.

[Rex]

240. They shot and killed a sick man.

An innocent, albeit mentaly ill, man who lost self-control. I understand why they killed him, you don't pull a gun out unless you mean to shoot someone. IMO, they were wrong in their judgement and cost a man his life. I doubt they will be back on duty anytime soon.

[Warren DeMontague]

243. The lesson here is, "don't freak out on an airplane"

Remember that guy who had the four football player sized dudes jumping on his neck for fifteen minutes AFTER he had died?

I mean, we've got millions of hyper-aggresive, overly amped, paranoid schizophrenic folks just a hair trigger away from flippin' the fuck out in this country- and those are just the ordinary, "normal" people.

That said, I think a thorough and honest (um, so, did the guy say 'bomb', or not?) investigation is warranted.

[dxstone]

245. THIS THREAD MUST STOP! STOP THE INSANITY!

We can't have people discussing these matters AT ALL; we must not allow authority to be questioned, EVER.

But I'm sure that very soon this too will end up being an offense punishable by summary execution.

ALL HAIL PRESIDENT MOE!

[PhilipShore]

248. Terrorism in the USA is not the same as in the Middle East

I think the killing of that person with a disability, was wrong.

Most of the keystone cops that we see in the media are trained --using the wrong tactics.

Travel any place around the world from India, to the Middle East to Europe-- and they all have their own strategies-- for fighting terrorism.

A bunch-- of them think they can just adopt the middle east tactics, and use those tactics in the United States.

[AgadorSparticus]

257. and i hope they do come back to work soon. god knows how many

other mentally ill people need to be shot on the spot without any rhyme or reason. And even though the wife was screaming that he was ill, it doesn't matter because it was all her fault he has bipolarity and is batshit crazy at times. So she should have known it was coming and let authorities know. We can't expect professionals to recognize bat shit crazy behavior as just bat shit crazy behavior. She was definitely negligent in her psychic skills.

we've graduated to a day where just a funny feeling is all a FAM needs to pull out the gun and pump 5 bullets into a suspect. there are crazy bombers on airplanes all the time running down the aisle screaming he wants to get off the plane (funny, they've been trying to get ON PLANES for years and now we don't want them to run off the plane with their backpack "bomb").
but nevermind that. it is integral al quaida training that terrorist bombers openly declare their threat and NOT DIE with their cause. the whole suicide bomber thing was just training for this.

we live in a world of terror. get used to it. so what if an innocent man died? this man has a mental illness and well, doesn't deserve to live anyways. not all humans are created equal and some people are just S-O-L. survival of the fittest and all. oh, and I recommend we execute the wife and the stupid passengers who have come out and stated that they did not hear the man claim he has a bomb. the FAM heard it and the white house has declared that the air marshalls did their jobs and that is good enough for me.

:sarcasm: