Song lyrics and guitar tabs to be illegal

[_TJ_]

I can't believe this sh1t. Seriously, they'll
copyright the air in your lungs and sue you
for breathing next. :-(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm

[NMDemDist2]

1. this isn't news, the songwriter has always had a copyright for his work

:shrug:

how do you think they afford to eat?

[400Years]

5. this is about lawyers screwing people for money

this won't benefit musicians in any way shape or form.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I am going to side with the musicians on this one

I married one so that is the safest stance. LOL

Seriously, there have been so many horror stories over the years about songwriters not getting a dime for songs they wrote and recorded.

Music is a product. Musicians deserve to make a living selling their product just like any other artist or inventor. I don't blame them for complaining that their hard work is available to anyone who wants it for free. More power to them.

I am also seriously bummed out by the demise of record stores. The last good place to buy vinyl in my town closes Dec 31. I spent most of the day last Saturday looking for a CD that I didn't want to order off of the internet because I needed it quickly.

[400Years]

4. this isn't about that

and this is not driven by musicians. if you want to find out why musicians don't get paid properly the people who are pushing this are the people who rip off the musicians.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. And why should just anyone get their work for free?

I know why musicians don't get paid properly. I married a musician. There is enough corruption in the music business. This is an attempt to make it more honest. And I have no problem with that. Why should you be able to get on the internet and just download songs or chords to your heart's content and not pay a dime to do it?

[400Years]

13. listen, honey, i've been playing in bands for 20 years

you ain't telling me anything I don't know. This is not an attempt to make anything more equitable for musicians. People sit down and learn songs and share them with others and this has been going on ever since music was invented. This is an attempt by some greedy ass copyright lawyers to try to chisel money out of people. If anything this is going to damage the music community.

Is someone going to now lay claim to specific chords?

Musicians get ripped of by the labels and thier lawyers, the same people who finance groups like RIAA.

[wtmusic]

18. then with all that wisdom you should know

that "copyright" refers to making copies. Has nothing to do with "sitting down and learning songs and sharing them".

Have you ever received royalties on anything?

[400Years]

21. they want to make it illegal to tab out a song

and share it with others, the only people that are going to benefit from that are RIAA lawyers that go around suing every little kid who posts a song on the internet.

So now if you tell someone let's play this song and you
wright out for them:

D C G
Big wheels keep on turning

does that mean you can be sued?

[wtmusic]

31. No

then again, if you wrote out the whole song and posted it on the internet, then hundreds of thousands of people downloaded instead of buying the sheet music, that's taking a nice chunk away from not only the publisher, but the songwriter as well.

Does your band play for free?

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I guess they must

LOL

[TalkingDog]

42. Visual artists don't get paid if somebody decides to copy their work

As long as the person who copies doesn't sell it as their own original idea. Hell, they can even enter their "study" into a competitive show as long as they credit the original artist.

I agree with the other posters...it's a learning tool. One I use to teach painting all the time. Here...copy this Old Master painting. You can learn a lot about any artform by trying to reproduce it.

I'm all for advancing the cause of art and if you can make a decent copy of my work, please feel free.




Daffodils
oil on canvas 18 x 24....You may begin copying. We will have a critique next week.

edit for basic english skills

[FreedomAngel82]

56. So you don't want to read lyrics on a site to learn the song?

Not every artist offers the lyrics in the cd case.

[_TJ_]

6. How the hell does a song writer lose money...

...by someone telling you what the lyrics to the song are??
If I hear a song on the radio and tell someone what words I
heard how does that deprive a musician of money?

THIS IS BULLSHIT PEOPLE!!

[400Years]

7. I'm going to go ahead and copyright the G chord

bwahhahahah :evilgrin:

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. If you invented it, go right ahead

And I don't think this is about ONE chord, it is about several put together to make a song.

[wtbymark]

16. Dark Star is ONE chord - how well can you explore the key n/t

[rog]

33. You can not copyright a chord progression. (eom)

.rog.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. But you can copyright melodies (eom)

[wtmusic]

47. You'd be amazed how fuzzy copyright law can be

and in fact if you could prove that your chord progression was distinctive enough you could copyright it (would be hard).

[cureautismnow]

14. I have first copyright dibs on the words ...

... "The" and "And." Use them in a song and I can start building my fortune!

:woohoo:

[driver8]

25. Wait, I thought that our fearless leader, shrub, already did that?

My mistake...he fucked that up, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. So should you be able to take any writer's words then?

Walk in Border's and tell them you want to copy a chapter out of a book and see how quickly they show you where the copy machine is. LOL

[400Years]

17. Just don't sing songs in public anymore

you may be breaking copyright.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Bars and nightclubs pay ASCAP fees

for that very purpose.

[400Years]

22. yeah, let's go ahead and give all of popular culture over to the lawyers

people are sharing songs that they learned over the internet to each other.

this is just another effort to suck money out of people by a bunch of greedy lawyers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Current copyright laws as applied to teachers

make it legal to video tape a TV program or copy material out of a book and use it in class for a limited time period. I would hope these laws regarding music would have a sensible clause like that in them.

It gets complicated (and illegal) when you try to make money off of someone else's work. I think that is the big picture here.

And lawyers have been in charge for a couple hundred years now. Hadn't you noticed?

[FreedomAngel82]

58. Darn it

There goes my singing career. }( I guess I have to just sing my own songs now eh?

[wtmusic]

15. No one can copyright *telling* you what they are

the word "copyright" means just that--the right to copy.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. I think it is too

I'm a songwriter and you get royalties when you sell a cd, song plays on the radio, sell it as a single etc. It's the same as if my friend got the book with the music in it and shared it with me and I made copies from a copier or they taught me the song and I memorized it.

[name not needed]

40. Speak for yourself

I know plenty of musicians, and I can't imagine any of them supporting something like this. Musicians aren't the ones complaining about guitar tabs and lyrics, it's the organization that represents sheet music companies, which face competition from websites who offer basically the same service for free. This is not about protecting musicians, it's about fucking people over for a profit.

[melody]

3. the same issue with this goes to using TV, movie media files/pics

Going after it with C&D's is one thing, actually stopping it is another. It's also
oft times seen by the entities involved (and rightly so) as viral marketing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. There is a huge free library already available

There are tons and tons of fake books. Until the FBI starts raiding houses and confiscates them, I think they will still be around.

[name not needed]

44. Of course they will

because the fake books are being sold by the companies that want to put the competition behind bars.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. The ones in my house didn't cost these musicians a dime - LOL

We have had many lively debates on this topic over our dinner table. My hubby and kids used to feel the same way you do. But they have gradually changed their minds. It is just not right to make a product and watch people (be it music companies or musicians) use it for free.

It is also disheartening to watch thieves sell bootleg music on the street. They need to be added to the list of villains here. Perhaps that is the real root of the problem.

We had a very good friend who was a guitar player in a band that wrote much of its own music. Then he got drafted. The band replaced him and shortly after that, they heard back from a music producer they had sent a tape to and eventually signed a recording contract. They went on to become one of the most famous bands from this region to hit the big time. Our friend got nothing for the years of sweat he had invested in the band. They wanted to cut him in on the profits but the recording company said no. So I hear you on who the real enemies are in this battle.

[FreedomAngel82]

59. So I guess I can't VCR any movies or tv shows eh?

Heh heh.

[wtbymark]

11. I'm a Deadhead, I'll go along with their philosophy

"Once it's left my hands, its yours, I'm done with it" -Jerry Garcia

I don't know if musicians (in which I'm one)should want to have an intellectual right to music like it's a painting. I do understand that the studio process is quite like making a painting - very controlled, wanting the finished "product" to be perfect. I think musicians have put too much value on that act of music, that is why we have seen a degrading value of musicianship. This is how New Kids and over produced under-talented are born and take away money from real musicians. Ok, there, I did it- I'm waiting for rant replies. But lets discuss Aethetics and musicianship and music - not bullshit - thank you

[0rganism]

39. Which may be why the Dead never had a problem with bootlegs

and the existence of said bootlegs did little or nothing to diminish their ticket or album sales, as far as I could tell. Heck, a lot of musicians would be flattered that people were making and trading bootlegs of their material, let alone distributing lyrics and tablature.

[Coyote_Bandit]

19. Oh please

This is just too much.

There should be a distinction between those who post lyrics and tab for profit (whether through advertising or other means) and those who do not.

Many who post not for profit transcriptions are doing so to get feedback regarding the accuracy of their work. That as I understand it is educational and constitutes fair use.

And in many cases this is one of the only ways for musicians to learn cover songs. It is not at all uncommon for even the most seasoned professional musicians to use electronic equipment (i.e. Tascam or Alexis) to sample and slow musical phrases without changing pitch in order for them to work out the music. Amateurs generally lacking the transcription skills.

And there are many, many, many songs whose transcriptions are simply unavailable for purchase.

[insanity]

23. I can copyright the bassline to running with the devil

It is pretty much just one note, and hell I've played that note way to many times. I can't wait for my roalties from Van Halen.

[wtbymark]

29. the bassline to Friend of the devil is Pachebels Cannon n/t

[insanity]

34. Running with the Devil is by Van Halen, friend of the devil is by the Dead

Running with the devil is one note on the bass (E) It looks like this:
G
D
A
E0000|000/12

However, I believe you're right about friend of the devil being the bass line to pachabel's cannon.

[Cats Against Frist]

50. I think Blues Traveler's "Hook" also has something to do with P's Cannon

I don't know if it's just the bassline, or all of the guitars, but I'm pretty sure it is. I think I might have heard their lead singer talking about it on Howard Stern, years ago, or something.

[insanity]

54. Correct again I think

I think the whole progression of that song is very much like the Cannon. I saw them last summer (amazing) and it sounded very Pachabel.

[Don Claybrook]

49. Yeah, but do you have the copyright

for the fading car horn noise at the beginning of the song?

I swear Michael Anthony is the smartest guy in music. He has quietly ridden the gravy train for almost 30 years now, without a bit of talent, as far as I can tell.

[400Years]

24. exactly

[wtbymark]

26. sites like RUkind are free

they also welcome edits, and yea, trying to transcribe 314 dead songs on your own- I dont care if you do have a DAT w/shuttle wheel, you'll never do it and I have a degree from Crane and taken many transcrption classes. Kinda hard when 3 of the 5 players are playing different keys or modal inflections, so yea - help from others is needed. Also the members of the Dead condone the site and are happy its there.

[unblock]

30. i think i agree with the fair use viewpoint.

especially because lyrics and tabs don't undermine sales of the original recording. in fact, they probably act as a form of advertising.

how many people go online for free lyrics and tabs and never pay (one way or another) to hear the original? most likely, you'll buy (or have already bought) the original so you can play along with it in order to perfect your cover of it.

moreover, if you've compared different transcriptions of the same song, you'll notice that there's actually value added by the transcriber in the form of how and to what extent to simplify the original performance (because sheet music is almost never 100% accurate). meaning it's not just stealing someone's copyrighted work, it's building upon one product to create another.

[FreedomAngel82]

60. Exactly

And yes. I know lots of online sites who have lyrics up for educational purposes only. I don't think those people should be punished and people who only use it to learn to play a song at a gig or something. I too am a singer/songwriter and I understand highly about someone stealing your work. I knew someone who had a friend who posted up some uncopywritten lyrics on the internet (which was dumb in the first place) and someone stole the song and claimed it as their own. It would make me pissed off since my songwriting is like my painting and I put my heart and soul into it. But if someone does want to sing it at a gig and not claim it as their own than that should be okay and is fine with me since I would still be the original author and making the money off of it.

[crikkett]

27. BWAhaha -- AS IF

Fear not!

Once upon a time I looked up some David Bowie lyrics and almost got infected with a browser hijacker. What started as a 30-sec lookup to settle a question in the kitchen turned into 2 hours of frantic registry edits to fight the infection, and I know my stuff. I wonder how long it will take this org's little researcher-minions to end up with serious ctr problems.

Remember OLGA.net? Somebody sued in the 90s to stop them from hosting tabs/lyrics and it failed. FAILED, I tell you.

More artists by the day are giving away songs and lyrics to increase their fan base and drum up sales. Even my old-school musician sig/other is coming around (after years of debating copyright issues).

Fighting the tide is self-destruction, winners will ride it.

[Bake]

28. Tabs are great learning tools

And generally don't take a DIME away from the songwriter (wo's getting screwed anyway by the publisher!). Take a guitar tab -- unless the guitarist happens to be the songwriter also, you're not hurting the musician at all! Just learning to play a solo the way it was meant to be played.

Bake

[SkiGuy]

32. So if I tab a song by ear

I can't post it? This will never win.

[Beaverhausen]

41. If you wrote the song it's fine

[blogslut]

35. Incidentally...

For those that would like a little perspective on the bogus issue of "file sharing killing the music industry", read this article:

Do the Math
The music industry says online piracy's killing the biz. A UTD prof says it ain't.
By Robert Wilonsky...

http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2002-08-08/culture/stuff.html

[Solon]

38. Fuck the RIAA...

they are signing their own death warrent anyways, thanks to Sony, I'm not buying ANY CD's from any RIAA affiliated company. Thanks to the RIAA, independent musicians are now making inroads, and soon enough, the RIAA and its method of extortion(CDs) will be a thing of the past.

[ghostsofgiants]

45. More importantly, what about punk-ass kids who play covers at talent shows

As a result of these freely available tabs and lyrics? Something has to be done.

[Cats Against Frist]

48. Poor fucking shit-ass songwriters and lyricists

No, seriously. I reluctantly agree that they should have the sole right to reproduce their own artistic material, unless the license or sell that right to another. That said, most of the people who make a ton of money, and have to worry about this, aren't artists at all, but peddlers of pop crap. If only I had the problem of so many people liking my experimental poetry, that I had to threaten the people who love me with jail time. Life must suck for them. I am crying. And if I just wanted to make money off of my work, I wouldn't do it.

[Generic Other]

51. I don't understand this

Now, when I download a song off the internet, I always look for a copy of the lyrics. Am I denying the artist the right to charge me more than I paid for the recording to buy the lyrics? I just want to hear what the words are to songs I own. These lyrics are commonly included with cds. I find it a bit disconcerting to think that corporate America plans to hound fans and musicians in this fashion.

As for the chords...how can you stop a song from becoming part of the public domain. This is how music has always spread. Folk songs that are spread become classics through time. Everyone knows the song. Musicians pass it on. Others learn it and improvise new variations. Songs that no one is allowed to learn how to play or sing are forgotten.

At some level you lose that timelessness when you limit exposure. From a longterm perspective it doesn't make any sense. It's like hiding the Mona Lisa in a box.

[Tactical Progressive]

52. So pay five bucks for the music and lyrics

if it's a song you want so badly to learn.

Or if you don't want to spend the five bucks, do it by ear the way musicians have forever. That can be fun too, but if it's too much trouble, then go back to step 1.

I don't see the issue here.

[nemo137]

61. because the music industry is just CLAMORING

to release the complete sheet music for Jawbreaker, Social Distorion, Belle & Sebastian and the Futureheads, and my transcriptions skills suck, due to a lack of practice (talkbass.com used to have flamewars over whether or not tabs should even be allowed on the site) ,a lack of time and the speed at which alot of the music I want to learn is played. If they start taking tab sites offline, I'm prtty well screwed if I want to learn a bassline.

Also, IIRC, the boingboing post about this quoted a spokesman as saying they want jailtime? Is that really proportional to the "crime?"

[Tactical Progressive]

62. Inotherwords, this transcription service is very valuable to you

yet you don't think they have a right to charge you for that service, no matter how valuable it may be to many people.

Well, what can anyone say to a sense of entitlement so strong that it mandates others give over their valuable property free of charge?
I'd say if people think that, then they're just wrong on the face of it, and not in a very seemly way either.

How many songs can you possibly need to know? 100? 200? 500? Two-hundred songs at $5 a pop is $1000. Not an unfair amount to get that big a repetoire. Or maybe it would be more like $.99/song. That's unreasonable for essentially a tool that a musician makes money off of? I don't think so.

And someday one of those songs may be yours. And it may pay one-thousand times over for all the songs you ever needed music for.


Jailtime? No, unless you're talking about broad-scale commercial theft for sale maybe.

[no_arbusto]

53. This has been going on for years

I remember in the mid-90s when the OnLine Guitar Archive (OLGA) had to stop posting guitar tabs for awhile due to legal threats. It was as ridiculous then as it is now.

I can play by ear. If I figure out a song, and then teach it to a friend, am I breaking the law? I'm allowed to legally play someone else's song live but I cannot record it for profit without their consent. How is sharing tab any different? This is the equivalent of a teacher reading a book with students and then discussing it in class with them.

I agree that using another's work for profit should be illegal. This is different though. If anything, this benefits artists by giving them more exposure. I guess the sheet music lobby has more power than I'd ever imagined.

[Tactical Progressive]

63. No, you're confusing the issues

If you want to play a song for public consumption you pay royalties. If you want the sheet music to learn it, you pay for the music and lyrics.

If you figure out a song by ear, or are taught by a friend, then you don't have to pay for the lyrics to learn them, only the royalties to play them.

If a teacher wants to read a book to his students, he only has to buy one book. If he wants them each to read the book, then they each have to buy a book. SOP. If you want to teach ten people a song, then you buy one set of sheet music and lyrics and they follow along. If ten people want the sheet music, then they each have to buy it. What's the difficulty in understanding any of this?

You, as with others here, find value in the sheet music and lyrics, sometimes a lot of value, yet you don't think you should have to pay for that service. I don't even understand where that kind of attitude comes from.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. I think that's a bit extreme

People are just playing the songs for fun or covering them at a show. People who are serious and real musicians know they can't record the song to sell it. A lot of singers who aren't good at songwriting but can play an instrument can do the song on their demo and stuff. I'm an aspiring singer/songwriter and I wouldn't mind. So what about all these sites who have lyrics offered for people? :shrug:

[Bushy Being Born]

64. As if people who tab songs on their free time

to help others play guitar better would make the artists lose any money whatsoever. If anything, it generates more interest in the music they're peddling.