Would you grant Tookie Williams Clemency?

[KC_25]

the choices are:
No, he deserves the death penalty
Yes, he deserves to live

This is based on the evidence in the case, and his current circumstances... the appeals

simple yes or no..

there are several threads already devoted to the debate of the above question, A poster in another thread suggested this poll,
so I apologize for the redundancy

[Midlodemocrat]

1. I picked yes, because I am opposed to the death penalty.

I do feel very sorry for the victims, not just in this case, but in any murder, but I am opposed to state sanctioned murder as well.

Life without parole works for me.

[KC_25]

2. I can appreciate that position n/t

[SidDithers]

3. I agree entirely...

and voted the same way.

Sid

[goclark]

42. I too am opposed to "state sanctioned murder"

We teach our children that it is wrong to hurt much less kill anyone.

So then our moral values government leaders, the flag wavers of Amerika, turn around and KILL somebody.

It is Barbaric!

[insanity]

4. Why do we kill people to show people that killing people is wrong?

Life without parole is a tougher setnace anyway.

[LunaC]

18. That's always been my logic too nt

[RandomKoolzip]

5. I hate the DP; I'd commute his sentence to life, BUT:

I think he's a total scumbag, who deserves the most severe punishment short of death. This fucker is the WORST possible poster boy for the anti-death penalty movement, of which I am a member. Embracing Tookie as the emblem of the anti-DP campaign will only result in a backlash against liberals....if one wishes to indulge in conspiracy theories, for a second, consider this: maybe THAT'S why the media is pushing his story so hard.....Hmmmm....

:tinfoilhat:

[Balbus]

7. A good observation. eom

[donheld]

6. No death penalty for anyone

[TahitiNut]

8. Even on a strictly utilitarian basis, he's far more valuable ...

... as a moderating influence on other prisoners. I can imagine if I were working at San Quentin that I'd sure as hell want as many of his kind around as possible.

[Aretha]

13. I object to the idea

that if someone is sufficiently clever or talented or influential (as Williams supposedly is with the very criminal organizations that he helped create) that that person can commit the most heinous of crimes and then have an extra out against the ultimate punishment that some schlub who isn't particularly clever or talented or influential would not have. How much "use" society can squeeze out of a particular individual should not be a consideration when an issue of life and death is being considered. We would not argue that someone is more deserving of execution because they are useless. The flip side is that we should not argue that someone should be spared because they happen to be useful.

[KC_25]

15. ahhh ahhh

clemency or no...

maybe a basic supporting statement..dont pick fights, I want the vote to be the thread not another debate

[Nikia]

45. Such people might anyway

We know that not every convicted killer gets the death penalty. Some states don't allow the death penalty of course so any killer there could just go on a killing spree and not worry about the death penalty. Others, usually richer more socially accepted people, use their charm and talents to convince jurors that they didn't really do it or that they are less of a danger than someone else.
One of the arguements for the death penalty is that killers are like rabid dogs and their lives have no use because they are dangerous besasts. I am against the death penalty anyway, but if I were alright with people being executed I'd rather it be someone who was causing harm in prision, like raping and assaulting other prisioners, than someone who is trying to contribute something to society. If a person's life still hads value and they are not harming other prisioners, what good does it do to execute them years after the fact?

[rucky]

9. Not just Tookie...anyone on Death Row. n/t

[Selatius]

10. Williams deserves life without parole to atone for his wrong

As far as death goes, that's God's job. I'm not so proud to do His work because that's pride and wrath at work, not justice.

[Clara T]

11. Opposed to death penalty for anyone even...

[Ekirh]

12. Against the D.P in all cases

So I vote for clemency because I'm against the death penalty . . not because I think he is reformed or innocent.

[sandnsea]

14. Life

Because I'm opposed to the death penalty, but in this case, if the worst of the worst chooses to even try to go through the motions of putting others on a better path, then that's more than most people on death row ever do.

[Endangered Specie]

16. I think we all know how I voted

[Parche]

17. DP

I am all for the DP for anyone who commits murder and did what he was convicted of.

Think of the victims, no one needs to be murdered in this Country like they were.

Gang members who commit those crimes dont deserve to live, no matter who you are.

He deserves the death penalty

[MrSlayer]

19. No.

I would not.

[im10ashus]

20. I vote yes.

I am firmly against the death penalty. It's been exposed as being too flawed and we need to stop killing.

I won't debate whether or not he deserves to die for killing those people and my heart most certainly goes out to their families. But on this poll I vote yes for clemency.

[K-W]

21. The interests of justice are best served by a commuted sentence. EOM

[darkism]

22. There is no reason for the state to execute someone. Zero.

Absolutely none. No crime is so atrocious as to warrant mandated death. We're not barbarians.

Therefore, I voted no.

[fortyfeetunder]

23. Wife of Robbery Victim Calls for Support of Stanley Tookie Williams Peace

http://www.naacp.org/news/2005/2005-12-09.html


Linda Owens, the widow of Albert Owens, who was slain during a convenience store robbery, issued a statement today in support of Stanley Tookie Williams’ efforts to bring an end to gang violence and his call for peace between gangs.

In a statement sent to attorneys for Williams for public release, Ms. Owens said: "I, Linda Owens want to build upon Mr. Williams' peace initiative. I invite Mr. Williams to join me in sending a message to all communities that we should all unite in peace. This position of peace would honor my husband's memory and Mr. Williams work."

[slackmaster]

24. Not a simple question - I oppose DP but voted NO

Williams is a violent predatory criminal.

Granting him clemency would (FSM forgive me for using this term I hate so much) send the wrong message to criminal gang members - Go ahead and murder, rape, and torture people all you want. Even if you get sentenced to death, all you have to do is write a few anti-crime books for kids, have them published by some vanity publisher, claim to have found religion, and you won't be executed.

[Yollam]

26. I voted NO too.

Clemency in this case is not how I would go about it. He is no better than any other thug on death row, IMO.

Capital punishment needs to be abolished - separate issue. I'm not interested in retrying Tookie.

[K-W]

28. Capital punishment needs to be abolished, but only after Tookie is killed?

So you dont like capital punishment, but as long as it is legal you want as many muderers as possible killed?

Your position confuses me.

[Yollam]

39. It's not confusing at all.

Are you easily confused?

This wouldn't be an issue if I were governor because I would have declared a moratorium upon taking office. So no, I don't want murderers killed. I just don't think Tookie is special just because he's become a cause celebre.

There are probably all kinds of beautiful redemption stories and saved sinners on death row. Tookie is not special just because he had some kids books ghost-written.

I hope Tookie's worthless ass never breathes the air of freedom again.

[mondo joe]

29. Me too. Same reasons. n/t

[K-W]

27. Then you dont really oppose the DP do you?

Williams is a violent predatory criminal.

No, he actually isnt. Do you know anything about this case?

Granting him clemency would (FSM forgive me for using this term I hate so much) send the wrong message to criminal gang members

Gang members arent generally as stupid as you seem to think they are.

- Go ahead and murder, rape, and torture people all you want. Even if you get sentenced to death, all you have to do is write a few anti-crime books for kids, have them published by some vanity publisher, claim to have found religion, and you won't be executed.

Yep, Im sure those gang members are already getting started on book drafts :eyes:

Btw, the position that a criminal should be killed because if he isnt it will send the message to other criminals that they too won't be killed is NOT in opposition to the death penalty.

[slackmaster]

30. Yes, I think the DP should be abolished and all sentences commuted

To life.

But that is not the reality we are living under. I also believe in following the law as it is even if you don't agree with it. Death is the punishment we give out to the worst of the worst criminals. Williams was properly convicted and sentenced to death, so die he should. There are plenty of other prisoners on death row who would make much better examples of condemned people who don't deserve to die.

He was convicted of four brutal murders, and I believe those convictions are correct.

Gang members arent generally as stupid as you seem to think they are.

I think MOST gang members are very stupid. Williams is very intelligent, very crafty, and he's pulled the wool over a lot of peoples' eyes.

[K-W]

32. You arent against the DP if you want Tookie to die.

Its really just that simple.

Yes, I think the DP should be abolished and all sentences commuted. To life.

Unless its Tookie Williams, in which case you want him to die.

But that is not the reality we are living under.

The reality is that one persons sentence could be commuted to life, and yet you oppose that, making it rather hard for me to believe that you think all DP should be commuted.

I also believe in following the law as it is even if you don't agree with it.

Clemency is perfectly legal, so what are you talking about?

Williams was properly convicted and sentenced to death, so die he should.

If you think this, you are pro-death penalty.

And again, clemency is perfectly legal and would legally overide the conviction. Clemency isnt disobeying the law.

There are plenty of other prisoners on death row who would make much better examples of condemned people who don't deserve to die.

And if it were their clemency we were discussing that would be relevant.

He was convicted of four brutal murders, and I believe those convictions are correct.

Right, but if you opposed the death penalty, you wouldnt want him to die from those convictions.

I think MOST gang members are very stupid.

Then you obviously dont know much about gangs.

Williams is very intelligent, very crafty, and he's pulled the wool over a lot of peoples' eyes.

Since everyone supporting clemency knows full well that he is a murderer, what are you talking about? He isnt decieving anyone, he is exactly who he says he is.

[slackmaster]

41. You lack the cognitive skills to understand the nuance of my position

I don't want anyone to die, but everyone does.

:hi:

I won't waste any more time trying to explain it to you.

[Yollam]

43. People are not saying they want Tookie to die.

They don't want clemency specific to Tookie. I personally favor a blanket moratorium on executions. Tookie should be in for life without parole.

Granting Tookie clemency not only excuses his brutal crimes, it also skirts the actual issue of capital punishment by NOT ending capital punishment in this state.

Got it?

[Yollam]

40. Opposing something in principle and on a case-by-case basis...

...are two different things.

The ends do not always justify the means.

[Yollam]

25. You put responders in a difficult position here.

If I were governor, I would not extend Tookie any special clemency, because I do not think he is especially deserving. In fact I find his "redemption" do be very convenient and insincere.

However, if I were governor, I would declare a moratorium on ALL executions like the Governor of Illinois did on the basis that it cannot be applied fairly and the fact that the chance of one innocent man being executed is too much. It's also prettu clearly "cruel and unusual punishment" as defined under the constitution, IMO.

There is a major distinction. Granting quadruple-murderer Tookie clemency indicates some sort of endorsement of his supposed "reformation", which I could not do.

However, I am opposed to capital punishment in general and would use the legal means at my disposal to stop it.

So to hell with Tookie, but no more executions, either!

[K-W]

33. "So to hell with Tookie, but no more executions, either!"

Right...

Its funny how many people are against the death penalty until its someone they think should die.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. You realize

that he killed four people but his actions afterwards have probably saved upwards of a thousand lives?

I am baffled by people like you, if you opose the death penalty, why make exceptions?

For the record I opose it on all cases except one... HIGH TREASON... why high treason? Not because there is ANY deterrent value to it, but because the consequences of high treason are that horrendous.

[Yollam]

44. He has not saved a single life.

He has been on the dole in prison for 20 years. Those people, assuming they were saved, saved themselves. Give me a break.

And I am not making an exception, clemency proponents are. I'm all for a moratorium on ALL executions. You people only want to let this one guy off and let the other executions go on. You plan to challenge all executions on a case-by-case basis? How ludicrous.

[0007]

31. I oppose the death penalty

[entanglement]

34. Thank you for the poll

the arguments have been quite vehement all-round, but this gives a sense of the numerical strength of the two sides

[name not needed]

35. Yes. Let the fucker rot.

[johnnie]

36. I am against the death penalty in most cases

It is very hard for me to agree with it, but sometimes I see things that tempts my feelings. I would probably let him rot in a cell.

He started a very dangerous and despicable cult that left thousands of victims in it's path. He is no difference than Jimmy Jones' people gunning down those people at the airport in Guiana. His "gang" destroyed so many lives that I would never want to see him out of prison.

[Zynx]

37. Universally opposed to the death penalty here.

I will never support the executiion of any citizen by this government or any state government.

[Raine]

46. We don't need a new reign of gang warfare

here, let him live and spend the rest of his life in prison.