Do you have a mentally ill relative???

[BronxBoy]

Any Body have a mentally ill relative?.....Are you nervous? How about a significant other in law enforcement......Are you nervous?

I've been following this incident in Miami pretty closely and I can answer yes to all of those questions and I'm nervous as hell.

The threads I have read have scared the hell out of me. On the one hand, we have folks who automatically assume that a law enforcement agent responding to a situation in which he had to make a split second decision is automatically made into a cog of some grand governmental conspiracy. On the other hand, we have folks who feel that all things being equal, it's ok to gun down mentally ill people and that to question such an action is absolutely asinine.

I come from a law enforcement family. Most of them wouldn't know a government conspiracy if it bit them in the ass. They get up. They go to work. They take pride in their jobs. They try to put food on their plates of their family and give their children a better life than they have. And try not to get shot in the ass while they do it. Same as probably most of us do.

I also have an autistic stepson. 30 years old. Sweetest guy you would ever want to meet. Loves kids. Is polite and has more of a work ethic than my own son. Highly functioning. Loves to work and be a productive person. But his illness manifests itself in eye rolling and teeth-sucking and other behaviors that, if you didn't know him, would be seen in the wrong light. His real dad is now starting to make a place for him in his life. Which means that come holidays, like this coming Christmas, my wife and I have to put him on a plane so he can visit his dad.

So I read with interest some of these threads in which blame was automatically assigned to either the air marshall or the mentally ill man (or worse yet: His wife) I am terrified for both my law enforcement family as well as my stepson because, increasingly both of them are being put on a collision course by a government of dumb asses.

Someone in another thread posted how this whole situation reminded them of Giulani and NYC. They that the same type of incidents happened during Giulani time and they're right. We need to look at the overall picture and not the individual actors. Kiss your law enforcement agent or your mentally ill loved ones today because the world has become an infinitely scarier and unforgiving place since Bush took office.

Here is my response to his post:

During Giulani's reign, his so-called tough guy act increased the potential for tragic interactions between civilians and law enforcement. As others have said, it's this public perception that law enforcement should take any aggressive action they deem necessary in order to make us feel protected that's an issue. Because promoters of these types of tactics often paint the world in stark black and white terms, it's very difficult to have to acknowledge gray.

In Giulani's world, it was "The Criminal Element". Today it "Terrorists" But in the end, it's the same old story: well-meaning law enforcement officials are put into situations with a wide variety of civilians with a policy that was probably thought up by someone while they were sitting on a toilet. It's like Tasers. I'm sure that with a proper policy, a Taser is probably an effective and life saving law enforcement tool. But it seems that no one with half a brain has developed and implemented a sane policy concerning it's use. So we have the spectacle of old women and children having their asses fried by Tasers when other tactics would have been effective. And of course, when old women and children are Tasered, the implementers of these asinine procedures have to defend said policies by saying that "This was a dangerous situation and we had to be sure"

While a lot, actually too many people, give Giulani credit for "cleaning up" New York, not many are aware of the price we paid as a society for doing so. So you had Diallo. You also had Dorismond, who became upset when an undercover Narc offered him drugs and he ended up dead because of it. And there was also the case of the mentally ill orthodox Jewish man who was blown away while waving a hammer in Brooklyn even though there was sufficient police prescence to defuse the situation. These are the results of our national "Fear Factor" You're either normal or you're not. And if for some reason, you don't fit into whatever profile is deemed to be safe, then God help you.

So the real issue here isn't the air marshall or this guys wife. Unless something comes out to show that AM was some sort of "do or die, Skin headed thug", I'm just going to assume that he was just another working stiff settling in for another day on what is probably an absolutely mundane job. Same for the wife. I have a mentally ill step child and on the rare occasions when he does act out in public, my strongest desire is to get him home ASAP with a minimum of problems. SO the issue doesn't start or end with them. It's how our government is attempting to create an atmosphere of fear and paranoia in this country, how we as a nation are buying into it and how tragic situations like this are going to become a regularly terrifying occurrence.



edited to change title

[Bluerthanblue]

1. beautifully said, and frightenly

on target-
Spoken by someone who obviously 'gets it'-

thank you for this clear-headed, on point synopsis of what is really the 'issue' here.
And vocalizing it as you have.

peace,
blu

[zbdent]

2. Do right-wing brothers count?

If so, then yes . . .

[BronxBoy]

5. Oooh....

That's a mental illness that I am so glad I don't have to deal with.

[lanlady]

157. mine too

Glad to know I'm not alone.

[AndyTiedye]

3. Trying to Act Normal is Just The Thing Cops Are Trained to Look For

[donco6]

4. My nephew is schizophrenic.

He hears voices, even when he's on his meds. He hasn't been violent for a very, very long time. But I worry anyway. The feds are always trying to take away his Medicaid. He has to go in for stupid evaluations. They take him off of good medication and put him on other stuff that doesn't work as well, but is less expensive (it's about $600/month for the good stuff.) He's good about taking the good medicine, but the cheap stuff makes him groggy and he doesn't like to take it as well.

[BronxBoy]

6. And the sad thing is that.........

if we were the socially enlightened country we proclaim to be, we'd be spending money on making sure our mentally ill citizens. Instead we're spending billions on dollars on a meaningless war while squandering the lives of our servicemen becuase we have to stya the course.

[donco6]

7. I know . . .

My nephew's needs are a drop in the bucket compared to the price of one bomb. And which is making the world a better place? With the right meds, my nephew goes to school, gets excited about learning new things, is an animated talker, fun person; on the wrong meds he's tired all the time, lethargic, not interested in anything. It's sad.

[BronxBoy]

10. Do his parents have help?

Unless you have a mentally challenged family member, it's hard to understand the amount of support that that person needs.

What really floors me is the lack of support for mentally challenged children once the reach a certain age. It's like once you tune 18, you're cured. Even in the most enlightened states.

[donco6]

61. He's in his 30s now . . .

. . . so they've managed to figure out how to make it work. It's not been easy, especially back when he was in HS and WAS violent. He managed to get a police record, so if the above-mentioned incident were to happen with him, he'd almost certainly be shot as well. Even though he hasn't been even remotely violent for 15 years or so.

[eridani]

164. Mentally ill kids are thought of by some as kittens and puppies

Really cute when young, and worthy of help. Adult cats and dogs with sex lives aren't nearly as cute. Ditto mentally ill adults.

[Ladyhawk]

8. Health care is especially broken for the mentally ill.

I have a major depressive disorder, PTSD and OCD. At this moment I'm well enough to jump through the hoops erected by the system, but at times I haven't been. What about folks who are always too sick to jump through those hoops?

I've been sorry to see discourse on this event deteriorate into flame wars. In the absence of more information I was viewing this as an unfortunate, but unavoidable, tragedy. If the feds are lying about the "bomb," marshals are going to lose their jobs.

You're right that *'s climate of fear contributed to this incident. It's a damn shame. Sigh.

[BronxBoy]

12. I feel for you

and everyday that you can take another breath, it's an accomplishment.

Sometimes I get annoyed with my stepson. I can sometimes explain the same thing over and over to him yet he will turn around and continue to do it. But then I can ask him to do a complicated task, expalin it once and never have to show him again. It gets exasperating.

But everytime I get short of patience, I take a step back and imagine myself in his shows. I get persepctive real fast. One of the reasons I am so in love with my wife is that she shouldered that burden pretty much by herself and raised what by anyone standards would be a good son

I just get pissed when I see posters trying to blame this guy's wife for this.

[Ladyhawk]

71. Thanks. I'm trying hard. :)

Sometimes it's hard to decide which of my feelings are influenced by depression, OCD, PTSD, diabetes, etc. and how much they're influenced. It's hard to stay stable. It's a balancing act.

I'm sure the same is true for your stepson. It takes a considerable amount of energy just to stay in balance.

[donco6]

65. He's been fortunate to have a good mom.

My sister has learned all the ins and outs of federal bureaucracy. It's been insane (no pun intended) for her to try to keep up. I worry about what will happen when she's not around. I know she does, too.

[noiretextatique]

150. mine too...he spent 10 years of his life in and out of jail

until he found a med that worked for him. he's doing great now, but i really didn't think he was going to make it for a time.
he's black on top of that, and young. i worry about all my nephews for those reasons.

[Ladyhawk]

182. Stereotyping makes him a target for sure.

It's upsetting. :(

I believe I got out of a bad jam because I am white and don't have even a traffic ticket on my record. Also, my family is into law enforcement and my vehicle isn't listed in the registry. This usually means that the vehicle belongs to a peace officer or a close relative of a police officer. Favors are granted.

While out of my mind, I overdosed and decided to take a drive. Instead of being arrested for DUI, I was able to procure a ride to see my counselor (and was promptly hospitalized). Lots of bad shit happened after that. After that I had a few life rules: question everything, trust no one and never put anyone on a pedestal.

[Samurai_Writer]

9. My sister is schitzophrenic

She was diagnosed when she was a senior in college, 20 years ago. It took several years for her to accept the fact she was sick. During this time, she refused to take her medication, and had several psychotic episodes that required hospitalization. She takes her meds now, but only because she is living with my mom and my mom is constantly vigilant about my sis taking her meds. Of course, if my sister just outright refused, there would be no way my mom could FORCE her to take her meds.

One side effect of taking all these anti-psychotic meds, and of the illness itself, is that my sister has gained a lot of weight. She weighs probably over 400 pounds. And the meds don't alleviate all her schitzophrenia symptoms, either. She still talks to herself and hears voices a lot. She can control it if someone asks her to be quiet, but honestly, she doesn't want to control it and has no motivation to do so. She's lived with my mom for 22 years, has never had a job, has no hobbies, and only goes out for doctor appointments. She quit going to group therapy this year.

It's so sad and heartbreaking. She was (and still is) highly intelligent, and her life has been wasted. My mom is now 69, and my other siblings and I are starting to wonder how long my mom can continue to look after my sister. We told her 10 years ago that she should find a group home for my sister, but my mom refuses to do that. It's gotten to the point where I hope my sister dies before my mom does. That is cruel to think, most people would say, but until you've lived with someone severely mentally ill, you have no idea.

At least I don't have to worry about her getting on a plane and getting shot though. She refuses to travel anywhere.

[BronxBoy]

16. WOW

That is heartbreaking.

One of the things we are wrestling with is what should happen to our stepson should something happen to us. We are not rich so it's not like we can leave him a big trust fund or anything to survive on.

He's an excellent worker in a highly supervised situation but given the current political climate in this country, those situations are becoming scarce.

It's very depressing to watch the world's richest and supposedly most socially enlightened nation turn it's back on our moist vulnerable citizens. Even worse, it seems we are trying to criminalize their very existence.

[calico1]

39. Your sister an my sister sound similar.

We should PM sometime. I am sure we could exchange some intersting stories.

[Lex]

11. NOT ONE PERSON on DU has said, as you assert,

" . . . it's ok to gun down mentally ill people and that to question such an action is absolutely asinine."

I've read through most every post on this and no one thinks it's okay to just gun down mentally ill people without question.

That is a just a strawman ploy at its finest.

[Texasgal]

18. I agree...

Just because someone dosen't agree with you does not make them a cold-hearted bastard who agrees with randomly shooting a mentally ill person!

Jeez... it just gets better and better....dosen't it?

Look folks... It's called OPINIONS. We all have them!

Thank you for your post Lex.

[Rich Hunt]

94. thanks

One thing that strikes me as REALLY ODD is how these self-styled 'advocates' for the 'mentally ill' seem to think that 'bipolar' people are liable to bomb airplanes. What is really going on here? What sort of advocate would agree with the hateful notion
that those who have seen psychiatrists are likely to be terrorists?

Think about who really despises those who see psychiatrists here. And in Florida, no less.

[TahitiNut]

20. Yes they have.

We've repeatedly read the 'argument' that anyone who doesn't immediately comply with FAM demands to drop a knapsack and lie face down on the floor should expect to be blown away. Such a stance completely relies on the presumption that the individual is, in that time and place, able to comprehend the demands and make immediate choices to comply, all while sorting out the chaos of armed plainclothes people seemingly assaulting other passengers and making frantic moves.

It seems strangely necessary to point out that Air Marshals take some 'professional pride' in not being recognizable as law enforcement people. (Quite frankly, that'd be one helluva ploy for a 'terrorist' - claim to be an Air Marshal.) I doubt that I, if I were a passenger, could immediately ascertain 'good vs. bad' under such circumstances. I'd say it's far, far less likely for anyone experiencing a bipolar episode.

There is absolutely no accommodation whatsoever for anyone with such mental illness in such stances. Such stances unavoidably countenance and condone the homicide of people with mental illness.


What I find even more disturbing about the stances I'm reading is that an individual need not even have a diagnosed mental illness. There are plenty of physical conditions which, combined with medications, can result in behavior that might be seen as non-compliant and 'threatening' under such conditions. God forbid anyone experience some of the common side-effects of prescribed medications at the "wrong time."

[bettyellen]

23. and "how could he know" the man was sick... well that's one thing all

the passengers did hear, isn't it? the wife screraming it out to all.
not to mention the big fanny pack on his stomache he would have had to reach for to twist away to hit the ground... yep, he woulda been justifiably blown away for touching that, wouldn't he?
sad we can totally overlook or forgive the airmarshall's panic attack here and deny the victim's.
who was ill here, and who was truly harmless?

[Texasgal]

30. I believe that the "plainclothes"

Officers YELLED that they were POLICE and ordered the man to DROP.

Please help me understand... are you saying that these officers just randomly shot this guy for no reason?

[bettyellen]

36. the reason we were given: the shouts of "Bomb", remain uncorroborated

by any disinterested parties, the passengers. Yet everyone heard the wife loud and clear, screaming he was just sick.
the marshall also had a panic attack, it proved fatal, and at this time they are backpedaling on the explanation. last i read he didn't say bomb, just something that led them to think bomb. it looks like they didn't get a passenger to use the bomb word, which would have been key to justifying this whole thing.

[Texasgal]

47. You are correct...

However,we have NOT heard from the other passengers yet. Just because ONE guy didn't hear the word BOMB dosen't mean anything in my book.

The investigation is far from over.

[bettyellen]

53. It's anywhere from four to seven passengers right now....

saying there was no screaming up the ailes, no bomb word used. and they began interviewing passengers at gun point apparently on the plane, did you hear the b-word? etc. they would have all been interviewed at this time, the marshalls would desperately need someone to say bomb to make it go away. and so it looks like they haven't, since the FAA has just beackpedaled and are revising bomb to "sense of bomb" - without any expalination of wtf that means. looks like he paniced and they made a very wrong guess, and their cover story is toast.
i mean, if they ain't using the word bomb anymore, i don't expect a passenger to come forward and do so.

[Texasgal]

56. 4 to seven passengers

isn't really much considering it was a full flight!

You must also realize that people are most likely still traumatized from the event. The feds most likely took interviews with passengers that very same day, and then LET THEM GO. A few have spoken with the media, I expect we will be hearing more from them.

Your not implying that the investigation is over are you?

[bettyellen]

58. i'm saying if a passenger heard the word "Bomb" the FAA would stick to

that version of events,but it seems now the "B_word" is off the table and, they aren't directly quoting the dead man at all.
It doesn't bother you that they lied about the dead man already, fine, but those are the facts as they stand right now. They misrepresented his actions and words and have changed their story.
They lied about the vicitm, you explain it to me why you still give em the benefit of the doubt. You explain to me what this "sense of bomb" might be.

[Texasgal]

74. How do we know if they "lied"?

We still don't know... this investigation is NOT done yet!

I cannot tell you what a "sense of bomb" is, because I don't KNOW what actually happened.

I have an OPINION about this, that dosen't make MY WORD GOLD or something... I simply have an opinion about it.

I personally do not think that these FAM's just decided to shoot and kill somebody for fun. I believe that they perceived him to be at threat.

The only known facts that really have right now is that there was a man that was shot in Miami in a jet tube by 2 FAM's. We have 4-7 witness statements. That's it.

[bettyellen]

78. we have statement form the FAA saying "bomb" then later "no bomb"

that's what we have. they made statements, and then came out with opposing statements.
so, i don't blame you for not counting them in your list of "what we know".... but to ignore it, is willful ignorance, IMHO.
and get off of it, no one said he did it for fun, he panicked and overreacted and used excessive force.
and it is obvious at this time the force wasn't needed, right? the passengers were not in danger in any "sense", so it was at best, a bad call.

[Texasgal]

83. Willfull ignorance?

When the investigation has not been completed?

Whats' the difference between you believing the victim in this case and me believing in the air marshal's?

And you know... you really don't need to get nasty here... I thought we were exchanging OPINIONS. :eyes:

[bettyellen]

89. You believe the airmarshalls, yet ignore the FACT their story has changed

that they put phony words in a dead man's mouth and have now recanted it.....
well, gosh, which part of it was that you believed again? :rofl:

[Texasgal]

98. I guess I need to make myself a little

CLEARER.

THERE IS AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION.
JEZUZ.... can I make it any more clearer? FUCK.

[bettyellen]

100. So you beliieve the govt's conflicting statements? All three of them? ROFL

i'm sorry but you were shilling just fine for the govt, and now you can't hear what they are saying now that it's clear they misinformed us?
LOL.
la la la la la.....

[jmatthan]

168. Yes, Bush and Scottie says that

Libby, Rove, issues are ongoing investigations!!

What about Delay?

And what about Jose Padilla?

Rather selective, isn't it.

[jbnow]

95. Of course they perceived him to be at threat.

No one denies that.

He was perceived him to be at threat because he was acting like a disturbed person.

He acted like a disturbed person because he was mentally ill. The FAM's assumed he was acting that way because he might have had a bomb.

4-7 witness statements said they heard his wife say he was sick and did not hear anything about a bomb.

If 4-7 witness statements said they heard him yell he had a bomb but did not hear his wife say anything would you be scolding people who assumed he did say he had a bomb and it sounded like the FAM's did the right thing?

Would you be saying "You can't jump to that conclusion. The only known facts that really have right now is that there was a man that was shot in Miami in a jet tube by 2 FAM's. We have 4-7 witness statements. That's it"

[bettyellen]

97. do you believe both versions of the story then? LOL.

no wonder you didn't actually answer my questions.
don't worry dear, i'm sure in a day or two they'll be a new version of events from the govt that sorta fits in with their favorite witness statements, and you'll know what you're supposed to think then.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

104. gosh, don't be such a hothead. i just don't understand why you give the

benefit of the doubt to those who have already proved to be deceptive. those who would benefit by blaming the victim.
i'm just not so forgiving as you, of those who try to defame the dead, that's all.
if you can't argue your opinions with reason and resort to name calling, or more laughably, bait me into name calling...which ain't going to happen, much as you'd love to provoke it so you'd have proved something here for a change....
well maybe that poor man isn't the only one who needed a chill pill. i'm just saying. calm down. and thank god it wasn't you on the plane.

[bettyellen]

109. ouch! so well reasoned and articulate, i think i'll have to print that out

so i can think about what a jerk i am to people who scream and throw around the word fuck all day and have persecution complexes instead of ideas or reasoning.
sooo impressive. i'm so sorry you're not up for anymore witty reparteee.
:hi:

[noiretextatique]

151. excellent point, really

it's obvious, to me at least, that given the facts, as presented thus far, "believing" anything at this point is completely premature. especially given the different versions of the story.

[bettyellen]

186. i believe the govt is working on a story to justify this.....

and i know i find it distressing. and very sad, that's all i know.

[LostinVA]

123. Seven people stated it in the Orlando Sentinel today

[TahitiNut]

38. If someone can yell that they're police that just makes it true, huh?

I think the 'terrorists' have a neat ploy, then. :eyes:

Don't try that "are you saying" bullshit straw man with me. Read the fucking post! :grr:

[Texasgal]

45. Oh calm the fuck down...

Look... if two men were running after me with GUNS pointed saying that they are POLICE and asking me to DROP, you can damn well be sure that I think they are the police!

[LostinVA]

126. And I would damn sure think they weren't

Just like the "blue light bandits" is many states who act like they are cops so they can rape women. And, if you were in the grip of psychosis, it would be about a zillion times worse.

They had the guy. They fucked up. Now they are CYAing. That much is pretty much a fact, both from witness statements and the Feds own conflicting and ever-morphing statements.

[jmatthan]

169. But a bi-polar may may not!

eom

[BronxBoy]

41. Texasgal

There are plenty of threads where we can go to argue about whether the AMs were to blame or whether the Deceased and his wife were to blame? Do we really need to have this turn into another one?

Can we have a civil disussion about how maybe a ill informed policy combined with an atomsphere where our citizens are constantly being told to be afraid of their very shadows?

There are millions of mentally ill people in this country? Are you telling me that during all of our Homeland Security planning for all tyopes of scenarios, that no one envisioned this very thing happening and proposed a potential solution?

[Texasgal]

43. What's not civil about my

post?

Is it that "non-Agreement" thing again?

[BronxBoy]

48. No

It's the fact that I'd like to have a discussion more about how we can protect ourselves as a nation without putting either the air marshalls or innocent civilians throught the ordeal we saw happen the other day?

[Texasgal]

50. This is an ISOLATED incident!

There has been FAM'S since the beginning of air travel ( don't quote me on that ) and this is the FIRST time this has happened.

I've seen posts here over the past several days saying things such as " I better not raise my voice on an airplane, or else I'll get shot"

I mean...c'mon..ONE INCIDENT?

I really hate the fact that this happened, I feel for the family of the dead man, I feel for the FAM too... he must be heartbroken.

It's simply a terrible tragedy any way you look at it.

[BronxBoy]

60. I have a little bit different take on it.

I think this may be the beginning of a phase of these types of incidents. I'm Black so this isn't really a new issue to us when you look at it. Black people, especially young Black men, are profiled everyday and it's almost an ritual in black families to instruct our sons on the very explicit measures they should take if stopped by the police.

I may get flamed for this but I had serious doubts about locking up the cops who shot Diallo. If anyone should have been put on trial, it was Giulani, who rode into town on this us or them horse and proceeded to harass the hell out of anyone whom he thought fit the profile of 'THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT"

So you had hundreds of innocent Black men being caught up in sweeps and having to spend 2,3 or 4 days in lockdown for absolutely nothing. You had a police force that was told to be agrressive on crime instigating incidents that blew up into tragedy. And why? All because someone's so-called procedures to fight crime only saw Black and White.

[bettyellen]

69. happened in NY manys a time. just not on planes.

dumped the mentallly ill out on the streets and left em to die, thanks Rudy, you big fuck.

[Texasgal]

79. I sympathize and understand your position

And I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

What I do not agree with is the fact that some people think that the air marshal's just decided to shoot this fellow for no reason. I honestly, do not think that this is what happened. I believe that mistakes can be made, I know that not all law enforcement are perfect. But, why would they just kill someone for no apparent reason on a crowded flight with tons of witnesses? It just doesn't add up.

[BronxBoy]

86. You are right.

I sometimes amazed at how tragic situations can somehow become contorted into grand conspiracies on DU. I think this was a situation in which we are becoming an incresaingly fearful country and that we are instituting policies that are not well thought out to combat these fears. As a result, we have what happened the other day.

If this Am turns out to be some crackpot who was just itching to waste someone. I'll be the first to take a steaming dump on a plate and eat it because I don't think that's the case. I'll even let you film it Texasgal and sell it on the Internets. (Provided you share the fees with me. :) )

Saying that the AM is a trigger happy storm trooper is just as bad as saying the vitim was responsible for this.

[Bluerthanblue]

88. i don't think

most folks who have an 'issue' with this think that the marshals did this for fun, or without any cause- at least not the folks i have developed any respect for-
But i DO think, and have witnessed many folks who think that anything other than "they did a fine job- even if he wasn't a bomber, he could have been" using the 'percieved threat' to justify what DOES seem to be a tragic error in judgement.
The statement this makes about our society is what bothers me the most- the idea of 'shoot first ask questions later' or 'we can't be TOO careful when the concept of potential 'terraists' are involved" is not only accepted at face value, but touted as justification from people who i consider to view the world from a less 'knee-jerk' position (democrats) is really disturbing.
Rush is already spinning this whole thing as justification for going into Iraq- and the lack of response from the dems QUESTIONING the 'police state' we are becoming as hyprocricy on our part-

Given all things being equal- the man was un-armed, and ill- the marshals had a HUGE responsibility and the weaponry, training, and power to 'control' the situation. They made a mistake- and it cost this man his life- Marshals are human beings- sometimes they are wrong- being upset when they are, is not something that should divide us- the only value that can be gotten from this hell, is to learn from it- and make changes.

[BronxBoy]

144. Rush didn't say that, did he?

What an asshole?

[Bluerthanblue]

163. yeah, he did- i tried to

find a link to the article i read this am. but it is only available by 'subscription' now- and i can't bring myself to log onto his sight- the title was/is
Air Marshals Made Right Decision, But Bush Didn't?

sorry not to be able to cite it in his exact words-

[LostinVA]

129. There haven't been FAM's since the beginning of air travel

so I won't quote you on that.

Once incident is enough, when that incident results ina probably needless death. And, if they get away with it, then it is indeed a slippery slope.

[Bluerthanblue]

136. another disturbing coincidence is that

the Air Marshals had a change in who they are 'managed-by'/'answer-to' in October. Something feels off about the timing of all this- Sudden shift in 'acountability-oversight' and the first killing of a passenger on the ground while trying to LEAVE an aircraft that hadn't taken off yet, along with eye-witness accounts of the man being distraught before boarding the plane??? just doesn't add up-
Not without some critical peices of information that haven't even been spoken of yet?????

[LostinVA]

167. Yup -- I wonder if we'll ever have all of the pieces

[Lex]

54. No they haven't.

You are making a different argument. You are putting in other facts.

The original poster asserted that some DU'ers think " . . . it's ok to gun down mentally ill people and that to question such an action is absolutely asinine."


No one here has said it's okay to gun down mentally ill people without question.

[LostinVA]

120. Some deaf, someone who can't speak English, etc.

Lots and lots of situations.

I can't take opiate-based medicine (Vicodin, etc.) because it literally makes me have a psychosis episode. My sister is the same way. How did I find this out? By taking meds in college when I had my wisdom teeth out. I had delusions and heard voices, and thought someone invisible was in my dorm room standing over me, breathing, holding a knife, waiting for me to move. I knew they were they, because I could see their eyes -- glowing red in the air. The night ended with my screaming and throwing LPs (remember those) down the hallway, to stop the invisible person from killing me. This was reality to me, it wasn't like taking mescaline and knowing what you were seeing wasn't real. THAT'S how I found out that I can't take opiates, and just have to grit through the pain.

Imagine if I was on vacation, sprained my ankle badly the last morning on vacation, and took a Vicodin on the plane becaus eit hurt so much. Hmmmm? If that happened now, I might have some slugs in my head, but lots of DU posters seem to think that would be okay.

This is also why I have empathy for Andrea Yates. Her psychosis was way worse, and way more long-tern than mine.

[TahitiNut]

134. Years ago, I was prescribed Halcion for depression.

Even though I had an undiagnosed history of (relatively mild) PTSD, and the depression was situational, the shrink prescribed Halcion. Well, I experienced what many reported: exaggerated anxiety, a feeling of near-psychosis, detachment, a mental fugue state, the whole ball of wax. In a nutshell, I thought I was looking into the abyss - about to go stark raving mad.

There's no way in hell I could've avoided being shot dead - justifiably, by the lights of many DUers. I can only assume the people saying this are so lacking in maturity and life experience that they cling to any superficial semblance of an opinion that accommodates a comfort with law enforcement types -- i.e. emotionally adolescent certitude. (God help their kids!!)

[BronxBoy]

135. Funny you should mention Yates...

I read some of those threads especially after she was granted a new trial and I was stuck by how many "She killed a kid, so fuck her" posts there were. That woman belongs in a mental hospital not a jail cell.

But I digress:


You didn't fuck up any GOOD albums, did you?

:rofl:

[Bluerthanblue]

138. Yates was on

Haldol, and i think Risperdol- my mother was on both of those very briefly.
And i too couldn't believe the reaction of people to a woman who is destined to live a life that will never be something i could handle facing- it would indeed be a 'fate worse than death' to become stable enough to understand what you had done to your children, and desire to continue to take breath. She is a woman i have incredible sorrow, and pity for. And cannot see any kind of positive future for. so sad.... so frickin sad.

[PA Democrat]

139. Yes, and the system failed Yates horribly

Her release date from the psych unit was based upon how long her insurance would cover in-patient care, rather than based upon whether she had been stabilized. After she had been released from the hospital, she stopped taking one of her meds based upon her doctor's advice when she suffered side effects, but no other med was prescribed, no other follow-up occurred.

It's sad how many people choose to blame Yates and ignore a very broken system that guarantees that future tragedies such as this will occur.

[BronxBoy]

141. Is this before she killed her kids?

I know her story but I don't really know it. Was she in a pysch ward prior to killing her children? If so, that says something right there.

Her husband just seemed to me to be this smug bastard.

[PA Democrat]

145. Yes, and she was released because she had used up her alotment of

insurance-paid inpatient days. She went home, had problems with one of her meds (it was I believe an anti-psychotic drug)and stopped taking the med based upon her doctor's advice. He did not prescribe anything to replace it. She killed her children shortly after that.

A lot of people failed to protect those kids.

[BronxBoy]

148. Funny how you never hear about that. n/t

[PA Democrat]

147. Good background info on Andrea Yates and yes her husband was a bastard

The Tragic End: In March of 2000, Andrea, on Rusty's urging, became pregnant and stopped taking the Haldol. On November 30, 2000, Mary was born. Andrea was coping but on March 12, her father died and immediately her mental state digressed. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible.
By the end of March Andrea returned to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released in 10 days and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.

Two days later, Rusty left for work and before his mother arrived to help, Andrea began to put into action the thoughts that had consumed her for two years.

Andrea filled the tub with water and beginning with Paul, she systematically drowned the three youngest boys, then placed them on her bed and covered them. Mary was left floating in the tub. The last child alive was the first born, seven-year-old Noah. He asked his mother what was wrong with Mary, then turned and ran away. Andrea caught up with him and as he screamed, she dragged him and forced him into the tub next to Mary's floating body. He fought desperately, coming up for air twice, but Andrea held him down until he was dead. Leaving Noah in the tub, she brought Mary to the bed and laid her in the arms of her brothers.

http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

[BronxBoy]

149. "Fertile Myrtle"

Damn

[bettyellen]

21. i saw people post that it was completely understandable, if not okay.....

and mind you most also said unfortunate, and other posts blaming the wife, so i guess you didn't read them all. a lot was said that he couldn't know the man was sick (even though passengers heard the wife scream that- and no one scream bomb) and that lets the LEO off the hook.
i didn't see anything as over the top as your quote, which i pretty much see as a strawman, but i saw much that was too close for comfort. like the OP said, some people would prefer this be black and white.

[BronxBoy]

22. Bullshit...

the tone I got from a lot of these threads was that people shouldn't even dare to question why a mentally ill person was even shot under those circumstances. Just as I got the same feeling that too many people wanted to brand these air marshalls as storm troopers waiting to get their kill on.

Me putting up a strawman would imply that I have an emotinal investment on either side of the argument. I think I made it clear I feel for both parties involved and that the real issue is the climate of fear being perpuated by our so-called government.

But I guess it's intellectually easier for you to engage me on my alleged use of a strawman than to get involved in s discourse that places the blame where it really belongs.

Oh well. This is turning into an interesting thread about the state of support for mentally ill people in the united states. Have anything to add about that?

[bloom]

28. Here's something...

similar to what was suggested. Plus a lot of people were/ are? assuming that the Air Marshalls are the ones with the definitive story. And a lot of people who supported the idea of "shoot first and ask questions later".



"The Air Marshalls did the right thing. This thread is fucking ridiculous. Oh waah, he's on meds, he needs help. He was on a plane yelling that he had a bomb. Two shots to the head, SAS style. Fucking done."

"I, for one, would have blasted him myself twice."

[bettyellen]

32. He's right, not one person said that...... At least 1/2 a dozen did!

such bullshit

[Lex]

52. No that's VERY different.

The original poster said that people on DU said " . . . it's ok to gun down mentally ill people and that to question such an action is absolutely asinine."

The post you quote from is quite different because it says if the mentally ill person " . . . was on a plane yelling that he had a bomb" then it would be okay to shoot them.


Those are clearly 2 different things.

The original poster asserted that some people on DU said it was okay to shoot down a mentally ill person without question. Period. I call BS on that.

[bloom]

63. So I see it differently

"This thread is fucking ridiculous." - ridiculing people for questioning

"Oh waah, he's on meds, he needs help". - ridiculing mentally ill people



We don't know that he said the word "Bomb". Many think he did not.

[Lex]

91. Let's get back to the original assertion.

The orignal assertion, in the OP, was that DU'ers condone the shooting of mentally ill people without question.

Not true.

When you pile on other scenarios (did he say 'bomb', did he fail to obey), then I do understand that some DU'ers thought it was justified.


But a stark assertion that DU'ers have condoned the shooting of mentally ill people without question is just not true.

[bettyellen]

75. you can split hairs all you want lex, people said there was no time to

question, so it adds up to the same thing-- people gave the airmarshall a "heat of the moment" pass.
and initially, they also believed the B-word, which is now known to be BS, isn't it?
i don't blame a lot of people because they were misinformed.
but the predudice against the menatlly ill shown here is quite distressing, to be honest, and that's been all over many of these threads with the tough shit attitude. i wish everyone could repost now without the B-word, it would be interesting to see, i think.

[Lex]

87. I'm honestly not splitting hairs, but the opposite.

I just don't believe DU'ers ever would say (as the OP suggested) that it's okay to gun down mentally ill people WITHOUT QUESTION.

When you stack in other facts that may or may not be true, then that becomes a different scenario.

That's all I was saying.

[bettyellen]

93. what i kept seeing was, you couldn't question

the split second decision.... and i understand that's a valid point, IF itinial reports of the victim's behaviour were true. Now that they've been recanted by the FAA itself, I think a lot of people would feel differently. a lot of what i read was heartless, but it was based on the presumptiion that this man ran around screaming bomb. well, no ones claiming that's the case anymore.
a lot of people thought things were not so simple as the govt presented them, it seems now that they were right.

[LostinVA]

121. Yes, they did. In the very first thread yesterday

Because I violently disagreed with him. SEveral posters actually ALMOST said that, but one did say, so what if he was mentally ill? He deserved to be killed.

I;ll try to find it in a few minutes -- I have to do something for the significant other.

[ClayZ]

13. Famous People with Bipolar Disorder

Buzz Aldrin, astronaut
Lionel Aldridge
Hans Christian Andersen
Ned Beatty
Robert Boorstin, assistant to Pres. Clinton,
Arthur Benson, writer
William Blake (1757-1827), poet
Ralph Blakelock, artist
Napoleon Bonaparte
Tadeusz Borowski
Art Buchwald
Tim Burton, movie director
Drew Carey, actor
Jim Carrey, actor
Dick Cavett
C.E. Chaffin, writer, poet
Agatha Christie
Winston Churchill
John Clare, poet
Rosemary Clooney
Francis Ford Coppola
Patricia Cornwell, writer
Richard Dadd
John Daly
John Davidson
Edward Dayes
Ray Davies
Emily Dickinson
Kitty Dukakis
Patty Duke
Thomas Eagleton
T S Eliot
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Robert Evans
Carrie Fisher
Edward FitzGerald
Robert Frost
F Scott Fitzgerald
Larry Flynt
Connie Francis, actor, musician
Sigmund Freud, physician
Cary Grant, actor
Kaye Gibbons, writer
Shecky Greene, comedian, actor
Linda Hamilton, actor
Kristin Hersh, musician
Victor Hugo, Poet
Alfred Lord Tennyson
Jack London, author
Robert Lowell, poet
Marilyn Monroe, actress
Mozart, composer
Jay Marvin, radio personality, writer
Kevin McDonald, comedian, actor
Kristy McNichol, actor
Dimitri Mihalas, scientist
Kate Millett, writer, artist
Spike Milligan, comic actor, writer
John Mulheren, financier (U.S.)
Robert Munsch, writer
Ilie Nastase, athlete (tennis), politician
Isaac Newton, scientist
Margo Orum, writer
Nicola Pagett, actor
J C Penney
Plato, philosopher, according to Aristotle
Edgar Allen Poe, author
Jimmie Piersall, athlete, sports announcer
Charley Pride, musician
Mac Rebennack (Dr. John), musician
Jeannie C. Riley, musician
Phil Graham, owner, Washington Post
Graham Greene, writer
Peter Gregg, team owner, race car driver
Abbie Hoffman, writer, political activist
Lynn Rivers, U.S. Congress
Francesco Scavullo, artist, photographer
Lori Schiller, writer, educator
Frances Sherwood, writer
Scott Simmie, writer, journalist
Alonzo Spellman, athlete (football)
Muffin Spencer-Devlin, athlete (pro golf)
Gordon Sumner (Sting), musician, composer
St Francis
St John
St Theresa
Rod Steiger, film maker
Robert Louis Stevenson
Liz Taylor, actor
J.M.W. Turner
Mark Twain, author
Alfred, Lord Tennyson, poet
Ted Turner, entrepreneur, media giant
Jean-Claude Van Damme, athlete, actor
Vincent van Gogh
Mark Vonnegut, doctor, writer
Sol Wachtler, judge, writer
Tom Waits, musician, composer
Walt Whitman, poet
Tennessee Williams, author
Brian Wilson, musician (Beach Boys), composer
Jonathan Winters, comedian, actor, writer, artist
Luther Wright, athlete (basketball)
Margot Kidder, actor
Robert E Lee, soldier
Bill Liechtenstein, producer (TV & radio)
Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865), US President
Daniel Johnston, musician
Samuel Johnson, poet
Burgess Meredith, 1908-1997, actor, director

[BronxBoy]

17. That's some list....

I would be proud to achieve even a 10th of what these folks have achieved.

At the risk of sounding extremely stupid and currently being too lazy to look it up:

Just what exactly is Bi-Polar Disorder?

[ClayZ]

24. Mood Swings, like a pendulum....

http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar.html

Bipolar disorder (also known as manic depression) is a treatable illness marked by extreme changes in mood, thought, energy and behavior. It is not a character flaw or a sign of personal weakness. Bipolar disorder is also known as manic depression because a person’s mood can alternate between the "poles" mania (highs) and depression (lows). This change in mood or "mood swing" can last for hours, days weeks or months.

Bipolar disorder affects more than two million adult Americans. It usually begins in late adolescence (often appearing as depression during teen years) although it can start in early childhood or later in life. An equal number of men and women develop this illness (men tend to begin with a manic episode, women with a depressive episode) and it is found among all ages, races, ethnic groups and social classes. The illness tends to run in families and appears to have a genetic link. Like depression and other serious illnesses, bipolar disorder can also negatively affect spouses and partners, family members, friends and coworkers.
<snip>

[YOY]

26. Roughly what used to be called "Manic Depression" or at least

it's relatively the same flavor of disorder.

Unnecessarily highs and lows that need to be balanced out. It can lead to some dangerous behavior in the case of highs and even suicide in the case of lows.

I was falsely diagnosed with it. Never took the meds (HMO pushing pills and rushing to conclusions) and told the shrink (who was in bed with Pharmaceutical Cos. as far as I'm concerned) to F off. That was 10 years ago and no, I do not have any "problem".

Yes there are real people with the real problem. They have my sympathy.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. the 'meds' often flatten

out everything- to the point where life becomes existance, not living- which is one reason WHY many BiPolar folks have a hard time staying compliant. There is a very good book by Kay Redfield Jamison about it- called "Touched with Fire"-

Some of the worlds 'best and brightest' have lived on the roller coaster ride of BP - and many pay the ultimate price, through suicide- one of the leading causes of death of BP individuals.

Better dead than numbed beyond feeling is something i understand, have witnessed and experienced.
Balance is something human beings have problems with even without the added burden of BP.

[YOY]

84. Even if I truly do have a slight version of this problem

I concur exactly. I've never been a danger to myself or others. To take such meds would have spelled just that to me: numbed beyond feeling. I'd rather be dead than to forsake my being me.

There are extreme cases where these meds are necessary to the point where one is a danger to themselves (in depressive mode) or to others (manic). Unfortunately modern medical science often has trouble differentiating the borderline between personality and mental disorder. That and they just love to prescribe quick fixxes...ritalin for kids anyone???

[AndreaCG]

184. You are overgeneralizing and being defensive

Too bad this thread is old no one will read my response.

[YOY]

185. I probably am and you're probably right

Then again due to this experience, I've come to generally dislike shrinks.

Hmm...I read your response! So fear not!

[ClayZ]

112. "Touched with Fire" IS a good book about BiPolar

Jimmy Hendrix... Manic Depression

Manic depression is touching my soul
I know what I want but I just don’t know
How to, go about gettin’ it
Feeling sweet feeling,
Drops from my fingers, fingers
Manic depression is catchin’ my soul

Woman so weary, the sweet cause in vain
You make love, you break love
It’s all the same
When it’s, when it’s over, mama
Music, sweet music
I wish I could caress, caress, caress
Manic depression is a frustrating mess

Well, I think I’ll go turn myself off,
And go on down
All the way down
Really ain’t no use in me hanging around
In your kinda scene

Music, sweet music
I wish I could caress, caress, caress
Manic depression is a frustrating mess

[redacted]

64. What's your list source? Link please?

Some of these folks don't seem to be correctly categorized.

[ClayZ]

110. List Source... Google "Famous BiPolar"

http://www.bipolarsupport.org/famous.html


from homepage: http://www.bipolarsupport.org/

[bloom]

14. There is an article

linked to in Editorials that sums this up pretty well also.

"Straighten Up and Fly Normal...Or Else - Shooting the Mentally Ill"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x178435


I don't blame the Air Marshall so much as the mentality behind the event.

And I agree that there are a lot of people who must have NO IDEA about what it is like to live with someone who doesn't act "normal" all the time. Someone who might routinely need to be coaxed into doing things - things as benign as ordering a sandwich - let alone boarding a plane.

[BronxBoy]

19. I know

and this action of traveling with a mentally ill person or a mentally ill traveling by themseleves is something that I suspect happens thousands of times a day without incident. This in spite of the the fact that a system for supporting our mentally ill cititzens is pretty much non-existent.

BUt my fear is that the constant drumbeat of "TERROR TERROR TERROR: We have enemies amongst us" is causing our nation to abandon any semblance of common sense we have left and to see things in only black or white.

No shades of gray permitted.

[babsbunny]

15. My Sister has DID (MPD)

Not sure what's wrong with me.

[unblock]

25. my brother did almost exactly the same thing as the guy that got killed

fortunately, he did it on a bus rather than on a plane. they called the cops who were able to detect a delusional episode and didn't shoot. frankly, until yesterday it never occured to me that the cops might have just shot my brother instead of putting him in a mental hospital.

he's been on and off meds since then, and is now once again involuntarily in a mental hospital. this weekend i went to visit him and he refused to meet with me because when he saw me, he noticed the bulge in my coat pocket from my hat and gloves and decided it was a bomb and got scared and didn't want to meet with me.

[BronxBoy]

35. It's both scary and heartbreaking......

I can't even begin to tell you some of the stuff my stepson's done. Luckily, we were able to contain the situation. Or if we weren't around when it happened we were fortunate that people realized that he had an issue and was able to handle him. And in some of these instances, police were involved and they acted in an absolutely appropriate manner which protected themselves and my stepson. So I'm not jumping the the stomp the AM bandwagon

But that being said, all of this talk of "the enemy among us" has me really concerned from him. I think that people, both civielians and law enforcement, are being bombarded with this crap and it is changing the dynamics of how we interact with one another. The real issue is tha atomsphere we are creating in this country

[bettyellen]

27. a few, and it's a life long burden to those closest to them....

the system is so skewed against aiding them to live at home or acheive to any recovery and it's very distressing.
like my mom who has alzheimers, they insist it's easier to lock em up, tie em down, forget about em.
it's heartbreaking.

[sniffa]

49. ...

:hug:

:loveya:

[bettyellen]

55. thank you dear....

you dear sneaky lurker.
:loveya:

[sniffa]

125. me Lurk?

nevah!

big :loveya: for you babe.

[BronxBoy]

142. Can BronxBoy get some love too????

:loveya:

[bettyellen]

161. yes you can

i have enjoyed your posts, and i'm a home girl from the
boogie down myself.
:loveya:

[Cleita]

29. Excellent and meaningful post. Recommended.

Living in the Los Angeles area most of my life, I have known of too many situations where innocent people lost lives on both sides of the law because of the knee-jerk reactions of those holding a gun and of those who should never have been able to get a gun.

I really don't know the answer, except maybe better training and more community based policing might help. As for your stepson, I don't know if the airlines do this anymore, but they used to have a service where if you were putting a child on board alone, or someone like your son, the crew (and this should include air marshalls) were informed ahead of time of their special needs.

[BronxBoy]

46. Yes you are right

We always notify the appropriate personnel if he is travelling by himself. He's 30 but he's probably acts more like a mature teenager. So we are always very careful to let people know his situation if he is travelling alone. The airline personnel are usually very accomodating.

We don't notify anyone if we are travelling with him however which may or may not be a mistake.

[rucky]

31. "We're the Government, and we can kill you."

[Chicago1]

33. My older brother is a republiCANT in TEXAS and my

sister in law is an EGOCENTRIC MANIAC who thinks the world revolves around her and is outwardly aggressive. I can't stand them and have implemented my own methods (legally of course) to deal with them. They're both nuts.


START THE REVOLUTION

[bahrbearian]

51. Is there anyway you can get them on a flight?

[BronxBoy]

70. And have them say Bomb?

:rofl:

Sorry.

Had to lighten things up a little.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Yes I Do. I'm Am Concerned As Well

There is too much fear among the populace. Everybody is the boogeyman. Someone says "bomb" and it's ok to shoot them, even though they didn't actually have a bomb.

Fear obviously can cloud one's better judgment.

The Professor

[Iowa]

40. Good post Bronxboy...

You hit the nail on the head.

Ultimately despots thrive by presenting the world in black and white. But the real world is made up of infinite shades of gray - it so much more complex than many of our leaders would have us believe. It takes real intelligence, maturity, judgment, and hard work to deal with all the gray on a day to day basis. Unfortunately, we are being over-run with manipulative, self-serving lightweights who are rising into leadership positions - and not just in the government - it's happening in the workplace too. More often than not, the people on the front-lines have much more on the ball than the lightweights they work for. To all of you who are in the situation of working under a dumb-ass or a lightweight (like Bronxboy's Giulani), I salute you. Hang in there! It's people like you who make it all work in spite of the crap you're pushing against.

[sniffa]

42. yes... and no, i'm not nervous

if anything, i'm disgusted by what i'm hearing from some peopLe mocking the guy, or bLaming him, etc.

[bettyellen]

68. the ignorance is on display here, and it is disgusting.

much like this airmarshall, people fear and hate what they don't understand.
sounds like the airmarshall was just as unglued as the passenger, i'm sorry if i expected more from a pro.

[seabeyond]

44. both of them are being put on a collision course by a government of dumb a

these are my thoughts on it and how i see it. throw in the fear factor of a building, or worse plane, with total loss of control for all people. some people can willingly give up personal control. some people, go mad mad mad i tell you, if they have no control in their life.

your story is beautifully and reasonably told

thank you

[moc]

57. My mentally ill cousin was shot in the chest by police in N. Virginia

He was alone in an empty office conference room.

He was threatening to hurt himself but was unarmed except for a snapler.

His sister was on the scene (outside the building), and she had informed the officers who had responded to her 911 call about his mental condition (he is bipolar).

They shot him in the chest. :wow:

Thank God, my cousin survived. :cry:

Yes, there is reason to be afraid, very afraid.

This incident occurred about 3 months ago.

[calico1]

59. And of course in the case where the person shot

survives, how does the media portray it? And what do people tend to believe in the event there were a trial and a person like your cousin testified? Its law enforcement vs. a deranged person. The nutcase vs. law enforcement people who are protecting us aganst these loonies. :eyes:

[BronxBoy]

66. You know what I'll never understand?

It's situations like your cousin's. Why not fall back and netralize the situation another way than escalate it?

I iin no way believe that the majority of cops are blood thirsty killers. It just seems that training regarding these situations and the mentally ill leaves a lot to be desired.

I wish some cops would weigh in.

[moc]

73. I honestly don't know. Is it really JUST a situation of poor training?

The thing is, my cousin was UNARMED. He did NOT have a gun! Not only was the conference room empty, the whole office suite was empty.

His sister WAS THERE! She had called 911 (after her brother had called her and she could tell he was in crisis). She told the officers MULTIPLE TIMES that her brother was NOT a danger to others, that he was bipolar.

Why did they have to shoot him, and with DEADLY force on top of that? In my cousin's situation, it doesn't seem like lack of training, it seems like incompetence, imho.

[BronxBoy]

77. Hmmm.....

That is a very different situation.

What was their rationale?

[moc]

90. I don't know. We're 1300 miles away, so most of the information

we have received has been through my parents. My husband spoke to my uncle (father of the cousin shot) shortly after it all happened, but he didn't dwell on the conduct of the police officers during the incident because he didn't want to upset my uncle. My understanding, though, is my aunt and uncle are pursuing legal avenues as a result. My uncle is pretty well connected in DC, and he was looking into securing some high powered legal advice. I don't think my aunt and uncle are focused on financial restitution as much as making sure it never ever happens again.

[Dances with Cats]

62. can I count myself?

n/t

[EFerrari]

67. Yes! And, thank you.

It's the training, not the trainee.

:kick:

[BronxBoy]

76. I agree

It's easy to say what this AM should or shouldn't have done. But we don't know anything about the guy. Hell it could have been his first day on the damn job.

I would bet my last dollar that the Air Marshall training program is probably f**ked up and leaves a lot to be desired.

[EFerrari]

82. Yes! I started a thread on this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5557902

Law enforcement is moving on this because they are right next to our families in the trenches.

And they are doing us proud. :toast:

Air Marshalls need the opportunity to train on this. We will have to apply some supportive pressure.

And I'm sure, as I'm sitting here, that the guys involved in this won't get over it any time soon.

[BronxBoy]

96. I read that thread..

It's a good resource. Anyone who hasn't read it should check it out.

It's very easy to jump on either side of the fence and dig in your heels as to what's right or wrong. It's much harder work to try to understand both sides of the argument and try to find solutions so this won't happen again.

And you're right that the guys involved in this are probably f**ked up about this. Not everyone who carries a gun and a badge is some wild eyed cowboy looking to put another notch in his belt.

[EFerrari]

99. Boy, is that right.

Since hubby was stabilized, I've building bridges with cops. Hardworking people who try to do right and feed their families.

Let's not let them down, on our end. :)

[kcwayne]

72. Yes, Schizophrenia, Suicide, BiPolars, Fundies, and Republicans

[BIG Sean]

80. You weren't there.

"And there was also the case of the mentally ill orthodox Jewish man who was blown away while waving a hammer in Brooklyn even though there was sufficient police prescence to defuse the situation. "

Clearly you were not there if you think he was just "waving a hammer".

He was trying to kill with that hammer.

[BronxBoy]

81. I remember that story very vividly.....

That was a situation which a majority of new yorkers felt should have been handled another way. Even many Giulani supporters.

[BIG Sean]

85. I am sure many New Yorkers felt that way...

Then they weren't there either.

[chat_noir]

105. oh, really, BS?

It was a hot night last August when the ultra-Orthodox shtetl began to lose its pro-Giuliani, pro-NYPD "innocence." That was the night that Mrs. Boskey's youngest son, Gidone (né Gary) Busch—a spiritual, eccentric Ba'altshuva (newly Orthodox Jew), now labeled a hammer-wielding lunatic—was gunned down in front of numerous passersby. Every witness who has subsequently come forward disputes the officers' story that Busch was attacking a policeman with a hammer when he was shot.

In the aftermath of the shooting, community leaders complied with Giuliani administration pleas to remain calm—and silent—because City Hall and Police Commissioner Howard Safir would make sure that a thorough investigation would take place.

"We now realize that the investigation was not taken seriously," Boro Park rabbi Shmuel Kunda told the Voice. As Kunda put it recently, writing to the faithful in the Jewish Press: "We should not forget this simple but unsettling fact: that the four police officers who killed Gideon Busch are still walking the streets of Boro Park wearing the very same uniforms and carrying the very same revolvers they used in the shooting."

The change in Boro Park's attitude is perhaps best summed up by a soft-spoken, older neighbor of Busch's, who said he told a black reporter after the shooting, "Yesterday I believed that when the police would shoot down a black man, they had a reason. Now I realize that the police can be animals—and they have the power to cover it up at all costs. The next time a black man gets shot, I'm marching with you."


http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0008,segall,12717,1.html




If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening ... all over this land,
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out a warning
I'd hammer out love between all of my brothers and my sisters
All over this land.

[BronxBoy]

108. Thanks for the Link

I'm getting long in the tooth and could remember Gary Busch's name. Unfortunately, his death didn't seem to carry the same iconic sense of tragedy that Diallo did. And that's a pity becuase his death, probably more than the others, illustrated what a menace that Giulani was.

[Rich Hunt]

92. I'm not sure what happened

Frankly, I don't trust the media enough to take sides. I'm not sure we really know what the hell went on there.

But I do believe there was a phony tone to some of the stories and statements cited, and I also
believe that where people come down says a lot about them.

[PA Democrat]

101. I have a daughter with autism and this story frightens me.

My daughter is non-violent, and high functioning, but when she is overwhelmed by a situation, she can behave oddly, pacing and talking to herself. She has flown on commercial airlines with our family quite a bit and we always take every precaution to prevent any undue stress, and we have always alerted airline personnel of her condition. I was shocked that we dealt with someone last year that couldn't understand why the fact that they had changed our pre-assigned seating arrangements and had our entire family sitting in separate seats would be a problem. Needless to say there is a great need for education about mental health issues across the board and not just in law enforcement.


I think that you have nailed the issue BronxBoy, in that the blame should be placed with the Bush administration and the atmosphere of fear that they use to retain power. That's the real root of the problem. They instill fear with constant talk of terror and insistence that only THEY can save us while they pay only lip service to spending the money to provide the people and the training to do the job.

[BronxBoy]

113. Same with my son

He would have lost it when the SWAT team boarded that plane and he had no support mechanisms. He behaves just the way your daughter does. He is very regimented when it comes to his routines and does not handle change well at all.

For all of it's posturing, this country still has a long way to go in it's treatment of the mentally ill. And the signs for a sudden enlightment aren't encouraging. Hell, the Bush administration is trying to demonize ANYONE who doesn't fall lockstep into their program.

[Catchawave]

103. Yes.

My middle child is an adult mentally challenged teddy bear with a fuse. We travel frequently by train, plane and automobile, and all gate agents, conductors and rest stop personnel/potty cleaners are always aware of this biological/chemistry fact when we visit their "space". As his Mommy/Guardian, it's just common sense :shrug:

Now my oldest child is an air marshall, part of his job is to be alerted by the gate agents of "special needs" people onboard before the flight takes off. Also, part of his job is to have people removed from the flight that DHS zaps to him moments before the flight takes off. But it's not his job to remove drunks and crazies, unless they are interferring with the flight crew. In the four years he's been a FAM, he's sat on many a drunk/crazy til the plane lands. Especially the ones who insist the cockpit is the bathroom door. AND, if that doesn't work, the pilot lands at the closest airport.

98% of the "problem children" on domestic airlines are drunk. We don't hear about most of those, DU we?

I predict, there will be a ban on alcohol in airport terminals and aircraft very soon. Keep it up guys :hi:

[BronxBoy]

107. Great

You are the first first on this thread (or any other ones as far as I can see) that truly has some insight into both sides of this story. Thank you for responding.

If you don't mind me asking, what's your son's take on this story?

[Catchawave]

114. Which son? LOL.....ok, seriously

I have the whole story, from the FAM son of course. I can't share until the official report comes out. But DU's worrying me more with all this anarchy sh*t being posted. Not only do I have "special kid" but married to a
Viet Nam vet with PTSD for the past 35+ years. I spend my whole life making sure none of them get killed when we travel :sarcasm: My daughter even spent a weekend at Riker's when she was in college, her bad luck Guilliani had a crackdown on NYC turnstile jumpers that weekend...pre 9-11...her life changed too.

I'm surprised I haven't been banned with all my STFU posts on several FAM threads. It's very bothersome, nobody's responded, until you, thanks! You can "search" my author name on DU and respond to those posts. It's disturbing to me personally, DU rather be right than support "the domestic troops" :sigh:

[BronxBoy]

116. RIKERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For hopping a turnstile??????

Giulani was insane.

I got pinched a couple of times when I didn't have any money to get to work. But luckily I just spent some time in central booking. Not nice either but not Rikers. Bet you that was an eye opener for her

[slackmaster]

106. I have an aunt who steals money and stuff from people

I send her cartons of cigarettes for Christmas.

[BronxBoy]

115. I she mentally ill...

or just a thief?

[slackmaster]

124. Some family members say she is mentally ill

Lacking a normal conscience and empathy for others; psychopath in the opinion of some (one of whom, now deceased, was a psychiatrist).

[BronxBoy]

131. That brings up a good question...

Is being a psychopath a mental illness?

Because if it is, I have a dilemma: I have been encouraging support for the mentally ill but I absolutely hate *

So am I being a hypocrite?

[kineneb]

111. Yes. Me.

And picking on the mentally ill really honks me off. To see me, you would never guess, but that is because I try to monitor my moods. Without medication, I would be useless or dead, since I suffer from severe bouts of depression.

[Bluerthanblue]

117. it honks me off too

Kineneb- and its enough of a struggle to manage life without having folks blow off the reality of mental illness, or blame those of us who live with it-
The brain IS an 'organ' and just like any other organ in the body can misfunction for a wide variety of reasons- in a wide variety of ways-
One thing many people aren't prepared for, and this incident with the fella in Fla, has really got me worried about- is the inevitable surge in people who will be experiencing PTSD flashbacks, and 'breaks with reality' as a result of the hell they've witnessed and participated in in Iraq and Afganistan. Much like those who returned from Nam, and were never the same- I've lost several dear fellow strugglers in this tough world to suicide as a result of their PTSD, and the refusal of society to take it seriously, or allow them to 'be real' about their suffering for fear of being labled wusses, lazy complainers, or nut jobs.

And THAT makes me crazer than i already am. I'm sick to death of the callous, heartless, 'boot-strap' (because they have no clue) responses some folks take when it comes to mental suffering.
Denial is no- ones friend- and silence doesn't protect anyone.

[BronxBoy]

122. And to take that further...

it's galling to hear people take the "organic" breakdowns that you are speaking about and morph them into character defects. A lot of the people I have met who were suffering with mental illness were very moral individuals. Probably more moral than some of the people currently running our government.

But to hear some people tell it: You should not be allowed to fly on a commercial aircraft.

edited for a missing word

[Bluerthanblue]

133. actually i read

today, an article by 'professionals' saying BP folks should NEVER be allowed to 'fly'=

And, thank you for voicing your positive experiences with MI individuals- My Psych.MD
laughed out loud when i said i must have reached a new level of 'craziness' because i was begining to feel like the world had gone mad, and my thinking was starting to seem like the 'credible' position.
This was after the bush administration took over, and started us all on this handbasket ride to hell.- PTSD flashbacks are not something anyone would ever be-little or minimize if they'd ever experienced one, and/or witnessed a loved one going through one.

The invisible wound that keeps on bleeding- and no one wants to acknowledge- We are going to be deluged with so many walking wounded BronxBoy- people with the million mile stare, and nights that last forever.- my heart breaks for this world- for all the ripples that have yet to reach shore....

[BronxBoy]

137. That's another little dirty secret

I believe that this country is absolutely unprepared for the scores of our serviceman that will be coming home with physical and mental damage. If we sent them to war without the proper equipment nor the proper planning, you can be damn sure that absolutely no planning has been done for when these people come home.

But I guess that's the long range plan: criminalize the mentally ill and fill up the prisons.

[suegeo]

181. I think it's an "evolved" form of GROUP PTSD

After watching the murder of thousands in Sept 2001 on our tv, I think many in this country have had a break with reality, or are suffering some type of mass/group PTSD. or Second-hand PTSD. I'm largely ignorant of how the brain works, but surely the experts have put a label on this group psychosis thing already.

Some people surely are not thinking clearly anymore. I mean really: why cheer on and support the Bush administration when Bushies so clearly failed to protect the public on that day, and since? (At best the junta was a failure, at worst they participated in the killing)

I think the psychological abuse was planned by the fascist cabal, and that our media took part in the abuse and were part of the cabal.

Showing us that crap over and over and over and over. Then in the following months, working hand in hand with the admin to scare us to death and to divide us. And to prop up the very people who dropped the ball, and make them seem capable of providing security, when they clearly fucked up, at least from the perspective of a peasant. They shocked and awed the American sheep long before they pulled that crap on poor Iraqis.

Anyway, it ain't you that's crazy, well at least not as crazy as you may think you are. Its what they've done to the culture that is crazy.

[kineneb]

130. I have had the "boot-strap" lecture

from well-meaning relatives, including my step-father. I can no more change my brain chemistry than my husband can change being an insulin-dependent diabetic.

I don't mind the numbing effect of my medications, it allows me to actually enjoy life as it comes. Without meds, I slowly slip into depression and panic disorder. I am sure that is why my great-grandma killed herself at age 27, leaving behind a confused husband and two small children, ages 2 & 4.

And I too worry about those returning from Iraq. I went to junior college with Vietnam vets who were pretty screwed up. Iraq seems to be even more traumatic than Nam, if such a thing is possible.

[BronxBoy]

140. Hold on

Are you telling me that some people's reaction to mental illness is to tell you to CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR???????

I've heard of that happening with people suffering from addictions (Just stop drinking, drugging etc)

But for illnesses like Bipolar? On what earthly grounds?

[Bluerthanblue]

165. because if something could go wrong

with YOUR brain, and cause you to not have complete control over your perceptions, reactions, emotions, thoughts, then (oh my god, NO!!!) that would mean the same thing might possibly happen to them- so, they refuse to believe it isn't something you can 'will' or 'work' yourself out of.

I've had a lifetime to come to understand this- as the child of a violent BP mother- who lived a life of constant chaos, and as a PTSD/BPII survivor (at least so far)- my mothers rage and mania exploded outwardly- causing involuntary hospitalization, and ECT in the 'draconian' days- foster placement for me (a different taste of hell) ending in a sad, premature, and lonely death. My illness manifests itself in self destructive implosions- and deep periods of sorrow, dispair, and hoplessness. One vow i made as a small child, being held against the wall by my head, legs hanging limp, and my mothers bright red lips screaming into my face, was that i would NEVER do to another person, especially someone i was 'supposed to love' what was being done to me- that death, was the cure for that, and if i ever became outwardly violent i would put an end to it myself, once and forever-
I also learned that this world is not a 'safe' place- and never will be, and anyone who tells you it is either is lying to you, or hasn't learned the truth yet. Very little surprises me- a lot of things sadden me.

Been through addictions drugs, booze, unhealthy relationships etc, including right wing christian fundementalism seeking to 'control' my world- or self medicate the agony, but reality has a way of continuing to butt it's head into the fantasy that life is anything other than what it is.-

Denial is a very wide river for most people- some drown trying to cross it- others give up and just float along towards the fall-s.

[kineneb]

173. oh yes

It is actually pretty common for family members (and others, as well) to see mental illness as something like the common cold. "Get over it", "Well just pull your self up by the bootstraps", "There is nothing wrong with you that ___ won't fix" or the one that gets teenagers "Its just a phase." Heard it all.

I live with clinical depression, OCD and panic disorder, which I manage as best as I can. I have memory problems from the reoccurring bouts of depression: I am missing bits and pieces that add up to about 10 years of lost memory. I know I will never be "well" and I know that I will never be able to stop taking my medication. I have had people tell me that I don't need to take the meds, that I just "think" I have a problem. Being extremely bright (probably near-genius level) doesn't help; somehow those who doubt my condition think that only idiots have mental illnesses. Every day that I wake up and can function is a blessing to me; there have been many days when all I wanted to do was die so the pain would stop.

[BronxBoy]

179. Amazing

I hope that all of the people who are subtley hinting that mentally ill people should be treated as second class citizens read both your story as well as that of Bluerthenblue and the rest of the people who were gracious enough to post about their struggles. I went through a bout with a substance abuse problem. And while my issues pale in comparison to yours, I do remember the the "Just get your shit together" advice.

And you're right. If you are not a blithering, drooling shell of a person and actually possess some intelligence, then the feeling is that your illness is a defect of character and that something MUST be wrong with you if you can't straighten your issues out. I've seen many an intelligent person retreat deeper into their addictions because of that.

You and BluerthenBlue have my utmost respect.

[Broken_Hero]

118. Yes, my brother Joe

who is 19, is autistic, and hyperactive as can be...the docs dubbed him autistic, becasue I believe they didn't know what else to dub him. He is very gentle and nice, and has his eccentrix traits....many people, who haven't met joe, are forwarned about how he acts, his hyper energy, and his ability to say just off the wall things, at any time...:) Many people enjoy joe's company, and he hasn't shown much of an agressive side at all...he is involved with Special Olympics, in Alaska, and he has won several medals for his events.

This past July, my brother Joe and Daniel came down to MO to visit my wife and I, and my mother had to notify Alaska Airlines, and Northwest Airlines about joe and his condition....and she also had the assist thing, where someone meets them at the gate, and brings them to their next flight...but the airlines failed to do the assist, my mother paid for it, but they didn't provide it..my brother daniel who is 15, had to figure out the ropes of SeaTac, and O'hare by himself, thank god he is smart...:) My mother also got her money back from the airlines, because they failed to provide what my mother paid for.

I feel for both sides in this matter, and i'm trying to keep my bias out of the discussion, until some more facts, and the investigation continues...but to answer your questions, yes, i have a brother with a mental illness...:)

[BronxBoy]

127. Your Brother Sounds Like Quite a Kid..

And we would be a better country if kids like him were given a opportunity to realize their full potential

[Broken_Hero]

132. Yes, thank you.

My parents, family, have pushed very hard to get those oppurtunities for Joe...thank you...:)

[Parche]

119. relative

Yes she is a Republican

[BronxBoy]

128. Whoa...

That's the one mental illness that we can all justifiably dump on

:rofl:

[bridgit]

143. imo, several misshapen concerns & perceptions here...

as is the way of america, we are focusing so completely on the other end of the issue i.e.

"It's how our government is attempting to create an atmosphere of fear and paranoia in this country..."

in spite of our vast ability, as a people, to suspend reality, we are a nation in fear and that has been the case since the pilgrims first looked into the dark forest beyond while standing under a full moon soon visited upon the Wampanoag, and many others, so don't kid yourself.

there remains to this day a great swirl of otherly, nefariously multi-dimensional, multi-national elements, this very moment, above any number of heads reading this post. and they are affecting those heads in these very ways; by causing many, many eyes to be looking where the problem is not. and some of those eyes have guns. a contemporaneous 3x5 debate card on the subject is to be found in the screenplay for the film: Syriana http://syrianamovie.warnerbros.com it is strewn to the horizon and beyond, with representations of they who do care two figs for the mentally stricken (here there or anywhere), or the simple broken hearted but to use them as pawns to kill others in the names capitol & commerce.

it saddens me to see the discourse drift so far afield, when the world is suffering-so, and from every...single...corner.

that is my thought here.

[BronxBoy]

146. I don't understand what you are trying to say

Please elaborate.

I watched the film trailer but I can't understand how it relates to this discussion

[bridgit]

154. then here's one for you, my X was bi-polar and later turned into...

a drug addict that would break my fingers, and kick in my ribs cause i wouldn't give him money for dope. there were times i wish the cops would have shot him but they didn't because he was lucid enough to put on a tie and 'present' himself before the bar as a normal person.

but that is just standing on 'jump street', so you'll know...many of us already have experience with "a mentally ill (fill in the blank)"

but the gist of your post, as stated clearly "I've been following this incident in Miami pretty closely and I can answer yes to all of those questions and I'm nervous as hell." is predicated upon what we all see as an injustice that much is painfully obvious.

the genus of the angst that contributed to that incident, air marshals with guns on planes, was brought about by 9-11, which is also painfully obvious though we are not yet ready, or able to understand that certain behavioral trends will be seen as threatening and especially when they are acted out in proximity to the image of a plane being hijacked, or citizens being put upon by the antics of "The Criminal Element", or for that matter "Terrorists". which are interchangeable concepts in either event to my mind. no...

there is more; or at least there should be more than ample civil concern for a variety of human condition, malady & malfunction without having to drag the matter through a matrix of gun toting air marshals is my sense & point here. it takes whatever potential message too far afield as i've mentioned above but your argument is not with me in that that is my simple opinion.

it is the impact of the world upon america that americans are having so hard a time understanding. and it seems to be filtering down to our allegedly mentally impaired. without that pressure there may well have been air marshals, but none so willing to pull a trigger to stop whatever they may have thought to be a threat. and that is your 9-11/syriana connection talking to us all my friend.

even to they who do not understand ~

[BronxBoy]

156. WOW

You said a mouthful. I still need some clarification about some things.

What does "allegedly mentally impaired" mean? Are you saying that this guy wasn't mentally impaired? That this was all an act to test our defenses. If you reread this thread, you will find a plethora of posts from people who have mentally impaired relatives or are battling mental illness themselsves. And they have concerns about how they are being viewed after the "genus of the angst that contributed to that incident" (With all due respect, I'm really dumber than a bag a rocks and I have no clue what you are trying to say)

If anyone else in this thread can help me understand how linking to a George Clooney movie trailer factors into this discusssion, I'd really like some help.


I'm sorry about your experiences with your ex. Drugs can make people do very bad things and most of them are not excusable. I'm not going to say I understand your pain. I don't. But I do know how a seemingly respectable person can hide some pretty nasty demons from the world and make eveyone believe that all is well. When in reality, all is not well. That I understand.

But for the life of me, I cannot fathom what George Clooney and my 9-11/syriana connection is all about. Maybe I'll understand after I see the movie.

[bridgit]

158. you wont need to see the film when reading the world's headlines...

will suffice, however, if you are indeed asserting: that he was in fact mentally impaired, then wouldn't the responsibility for his death be on his wife ultimately; who should have been caring for him more completely? and not the air marshals?

perhaps it is me that is as dumb as a bag of wet mice. but i know that if my hubby was in a similar condition, i would have lit up the terminals on each end of the flight, and every jumper in between, making sure that he received the attention he needed. even still...

i see components of the problem and the solution in my mind's eye. and while i appreciate the stance from which your opinion emanates, our discourse on the matter is concluded here :hi:

[BronxBoy]

159. Well this is probably...

the most coherent of your posts to date.

I never said that the responsibilty for his death rested on the hands of the air marshall's. In fact, I think that everything I've posted has been consistent in that we really can't assign blame to either the air marshalls or the wife. Blame needs to be placed at the feet of a federal government that institutionalizes fear.

This must be a hell of a movie in that it contains all of the answers to questions and concerns that so many people on this thread have voiced opinions about. It's too bad that I don't go to the movies and I generally wait for films to come out on DVD before I'll see them. It won't be too late to get the message then, will it? If it is, can Sfexpat200, Bettyellen, Catchwave, PADemocrat or BluerthanBlue please go see this movie for me and send me the crib notes so I can get with the program.

and while i appreciate the stance from which your opinion emanates, I still have absolutely no clue about how the hell a George Clooney movie factors into this discussion. But I ain't mad atchya :hi:

edited for spelling

[bridgit]

160. Sfexpat2000 is a post-pal of mine & well able to provide synopsis...

B-) imo you're keying too ridgely upon George Clooney of all people, and this is what i am referring to when i mention an otherwise noble cause being led too far afield

[Roon]

152. I am mentally ill

I am on zoloft, risperdal, and buspirone. One strange thing about being on medication is you can spot other folks who should be on meds but aren't.

[BronxBoy]

153. Interesting

How so?

I believe you. It's like when I see people who know appear to know something here post that they can tell that * exhibits an awful lot mental illness characteristics.

[Roon]

155. Outbursts

Going postal in grocery store lines,roadrage,getting tattoos on your neck. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5559978&mesg_id=5559978

I'll add more as I think of them

[kineneb]

174. hi ya, fellow

from the land of Effexor (see my posts above)

And yes, I agree, we can spot the ones Who-Should-Be-On-Medications. I think between self-education, therapy and medications, the self-acknowledged mentally ill are better at diagnosis than the shrinks of the world. We know what we feel when we are "there" and can see it in others.

[Roon]

180. I really hate it

when meds are offered to people and they refuse them.

[AuntiBush]

162. You Really Hit it On the Nail!

"It's how our government is attempting to create an atmosphere of fear and paranoia in this country, how we as a nation are buying into it and how tragic situations like this are going to become a regularly terrifying occurrence."

That's "it!" Shew...

[jmatthan]

166. My 32 year old son is bi-polar

and I am glad that I do not live in the US.

[buddysmellgood]

170. My brother thinks he's a chicken. We don't tell him he's not because

we need the eggs.

[eppur_se_muova]

171. To answer your question literally...I don't know.

And most of us don't. Which just adds to the concern.

[bammertheblue]

172. Well

since you asked...
I guess people might say I am mentally ill. I have depression, an eating disorder, and, most relevant, panic attacks.
I wouldn't start yelling about a bomb, but when I get them I act pretty irrationally because I feel, well, insane. I get very nervous at airports because flying scares me- last time I flew I did have a panic attack- started hyperventilating, panting, sweating, the works. Now, of course, I'm even more afraid.

[kineneb]

175. take care

I know what that feels like. Flying doesn't bother me, but other things do. At the beginning of my last major depressive episode, I had a panic attack that lasted almost two weeks. My attacks manifest as a weird feeling in my upper back (that feeling one would get if the plumbing suddenly burst all over the house). The doc had to give me Valium so I could focus enough to function.

[bammertheblue]

176. Two weeks!

I would have died. The last time I had one I woke up at 4 am and scared the absolute shit out of my boyfriend. He thought I was going to die or that he was going to have to take me to the hospital. I generally get very short of breath, tingly all over like an adrenaline rush, and my muscles all tense up. If I had that for two weeks, I think I might have major problems.

[kineneb]

177. yes, two weeks

And indeed, I did have problems. I remember little of that time except for feeling totally disconnected from reality (in a really bad way). My brain was on complete sensory overload and trying to shut down. My friend thought I was angry with her until I explained what was going on, at which point she told me that I needed another Valium, since it had obviously worn off. And on top of everything, I was in graduate school and still trying to take classes. Between the panic and depression, it took me about 3/4 of a year to get back to something resembling "normal." I still am suffering some after-effects 3 years later.

[bammertheblue]

178. Wow

More power to you.
I've been through really rough times, esp. with the eating disorder (bulimia) where my friends have thought I was just absolutely being a raging bitch...it's hard to explain WHY you are acting berserk when you really have no control over it. graduate school is actually what caused my latest panic attack...the one before that was flying out to DC (where I am living now and going to grad school).
Take care of yourself.

[sojourner]

183. thank you for your balanced perspective!

there are folks with mental illness in my life...a (not) daugh-in-law (never married, now separated), ex-hubbys niece, my current partner, myself (recurrent bouts of major depression)...

i also worked within a cj agency and learned there about widespread lack of training, lack of understanding about mental illness. in fact a general bias that says mentally ill = crazy = dangerous.

the fears held by law enforcement are the most deadly fears, bc they are armed and trained that if they use deadly force, it better be deadly. thus no "knee-capping" or other "take-downs". and this is not to say that some of their fears are not well-founded. an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic can be a real threat to life - even to those he/she loves. but without treatment (spell this, "without government funded treatment"), without an enlightened, educated and compassionate society, there WILL be more and more of this.