The most frightening part of the Air Marshall story:

[Thtwudbeme]

These are people that were trained to act this way. I hope that every DUer understands the full implications of this.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13353797.htm

He said the man apparently left a backpack on the plane, adding that the other passengers were treated roughly when law enforcement boarded the plane after the shooting.

'They put a gun to the back of my head and said, `Put your hands on the seat,' '' he said. ``That was more scary than anything else.''


''I don't know if they shot an innocent man or not,'' McAlhany said. ``I don't think he was armed or had a bomb. I think he had a mental illness. I don't think they really had to shoot him, but I hope he didn't holler something stupid.''

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. This story is sure starting to stink

How much you want to bet this poor fellow didn't say anything about a bomb?

[Thtwudbeme]

2. I don't know....I wasn't there

I am not willing to discuss stuff that I clearly would just be pulling out of my behind.

However, I will say this: it's scary. I won't say what town I live in, but in the past year, I witnessed a police officer on a college campus pull out a gun and wave it around. I was sitting in a restaurant, and was shocked as hell. This reminds me of that, only way more insidious.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. So far

I haven't been able to find a single report of a passenger saying they heard him claim he had a bomb. The only people who are claiming that he said this are the air marshals. Gee, you don't think they would lie now do you?

[Thtwudbeme]

4. You are sitting at a computer

reading the few comments that have made it to the media. That does not qualify even remotely as having accurate information.

I am not trying to be mean; just trying to point out that you probably don't want to be a reactionary.

Stephanie

btw...if you want to entertain yourself, and read some seriously reactionary comments...read the "the air marshalls did the right thing!" ones.

Suddenly we have law enforcement officials all over DU that have been specially trained in airport security. Cool eh? ;)

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Of course not

That is why I said so far.

However, with a story like this you would think that the media would be posting lots of interviews with passengers if this guy was yelling that he had a bomb. The terrified victims would make great press.

[malaise]

7. Even CNN

is saying that this morning.

[Thtwudbeme]

10. I don't have cable anymore

it was depressing me.

[Thorandmjolnir]

39. The first mention of a bomb

yesterday here, was a quote from "an unnamed senior official". I asked why he was unnamed and got no answer. I would be really curious to see when the bomb-word was mentioned the first time and by whom.


So far no witness has said anything about a bomb.

As a matter of fact, the man followed the instructions of the air marshals and got of the plane. That's right, he was shot OUTSIDE the plane.

So all this hype about a bomb killing hundreds of people is a lie. HE WAS NOT ON THE PLANE!

[spinbaby]

46. Yesterday I heard a report

NPR briefly mentioned yesterday afternoon that ANOTHER PASSENGER said the man had a bomb, but by the next news cycle, they were back to saying that the shooting victim had claimed he had a bomb.

[boston bean]

13. I don't know for sure, but I bet that

he never said he had a bomb and that he just reached into his bag.

This is a cover story.

Or he said he had a bomb and never reached into his bag.

My question is, were there cameras there?

[AtomicKitten]

6. K. Olbermann intimated we don't really know what happened.

There are no witnesses available yet. They are probably in Abu Ghraib by now. After the London fiasco, we can probably safely guess the man didn't really say he had a bomb. It appeared to me he was trying to just get off the plane.

A true indication that our country has turned to shit is when you don't believe a damn thing those in authority say.

[izzie]

8. Ever seen the movie the Bedford Incident?

Made me think of that. We seem to see this more all the time but then it maybe how the News is always on.

[Thtwudbeme]

9. I did not see that

Maybe I need to.

[Kingshakabobo]

49. Great movie! Always watch it when it airs. n/t

[Vinca]

11. You should wait for the investigation before coming to conclusions.

If this had been a guy reaching into a bag to detonate a bomb, shooting him would save a plane filled with passengers. Since air marshals don't have x-ray vision, they couldn't know a hoax from a real bomb. In a split second they have to determine the fate of this guy vs. dozens of passengers. I'm suspecting this is a case of suicide by cop, but let's wait and see.

[Thtwudbeme]

12. o...k.....

ummmm what conclusions did I come to?

[Thorandmjolnir]

40. HE WAS NOT ON THE PLANE

He was not on the plane when he was shot. He was asked to leave the plane and did so. He was shot outside the plane, so a bomb would not have killed the passengers!

[uncle ray]

50. you should have titled your reply:

"take my advice, i'm not using it."

[Thtwudbeme]

14. Not ONE poster on this thread

has mentioned that it's scary that an innocent passenger had a loaded gun put to his head.

OK, that's weird.

[Vinca]

15. How are you so sure whether a passenger is innocent or not?

The 9/11 guys looked like innocent passengers, too.

[Thtwudbeme]

16. did you forget the sarcasm

thingy, or are you serious?

[Vinca]

17. It wasn't sarcastic.

The 9/11 hijackers were just guys traveling until they took the planes into the buildings. If you want airline security, innocent people will be hassled. That's just the way it is. Personally, I prefer to be annoyed rather than blown up.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. You might sing a different tune if you find yourself detained for an....

...indefinite period of time. If left unchecked, and with current existing law, the autorities could have detained ALL of the passengers yesterday without explanation and for any unspecified length of time. They're not even required to tell anyone where the detainees are being held.

Based on the track record of the NeoCon Junta to date, I personally think it's a good thing to ask questions about incidents like this. Hopefully, when the facts finally come out, we will have a better picture of this incident and take corrective action if necessary.

[Mechatanketra]

28. Oh, good underwear gnomes logic there.

The 9/11 hijackers were just guys traveling until they took the planes into the buildings. If you want airline security, innocent people will be hassled.

Um ... the 9/11 hijackers were "just guys travelling" until they pulled out some weapons and demanded control of the plane. It's kind of a critical prerequisite to taking the planes into the buildings, and as it happens, it also neatly constitutes "probable cause" for pulling a gun on them.

And having a loaded weapon pointed at your head is not "being annoyed". It's "aggravated assault", and has an alarmingly high probability of becoming "f***ing dead for no good reason". If I'm going to be at risk of experiencing "f***ing dead for no good reason", you know what? I don't care what team jersey the guy that killed me was wearing. That airplane is, for me, less secure; at the end of the day, nobody on the plane was actually at risk of bombing, but someone WAS put in danger by the de-bombing. If one of those passengers had been unlucky enough to spook an agent into shooting, we'd have the Iraq invasion in miniature.

Real security is the golden mean between hands-off apathy and paranoid crackdown.

[Thorandmjolnir]

41. I don't want that kind of security

By your logic, the police should be allowed to stop you on the street, put a gun to your head and question you. Because security is more important than liberty.

[PA Democrat]

18. Did you read the statements of this passenger?

"After the shooting, law enforcement officers surrounded the plane. Inside, McAlhany said passengers were ordered to crouch under their seats. He said when he tried to pop up for a look, a flight attendant ordered him to get back down.

He said the man apparently left a backpack on the plane, adding that the other passengers were treated roughly when law enforcement boarded the plane after the shooting.

'They put a gun to the back of my head and said, `Put your hands on the seat,' '' he said. ``That was more scary than anything else.''"

This guy WAS an innocent passenger who WAS complying with law enforcement. Apparently, his "crime" was trying to see what was going on.

So we can look forward to having a loaded gun held to our heads if we happen to be innocent passengers on a flight with someone behaving oddly? Guilty until proved innocent.

[Thtwudbeme]

20. a loaded gun in the hands of someone in freak out mode

at this.

This scared the hell out of me. I was a paramedic, and am used to "life in the streets" crap...but, these people don't sound like they handled stress too well.

Scary as shit.

[aikoaiko]

44. Yes, its scary, but its not uncommon when the LEO are trying to control

a potentially dangerous situation. Bombing attacks by civilians are becoming much more sophisticated -- see Iraq. The Law Enforcement Officers could have been concerned that the passenger they shot was a decoy.

I've never heard of putting a gun to the back of a head as standard operating procedure and if that happened the LEO probably needs to be reprimanded.

When LEO think there is a chance something dangerous is happening, intimidating stances are often employed to control people's behavior. This is not a bad thing.

Yes its very scary when LEO go in lock down mode.


FWIW: I'm still waiting to hear more about the situation, but its very possible this is a tragedy where the leo didn't act negligently.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. The article stated that he "left a backpack on the plane", when most of...

...the other reports stated that he put his hand inside the backpack before he was shot inside the jetway.

So, which is it?

1. Did he have TWO backpacks, leaving one on the plane and taking one with him?

2. Did he only have ONE backpack, leaving it on the plane?

3. Did he only have ONE backpack, carrying it with him onto the jetway?

And as for the situation that took place once the heavily-armed SWAT team boarded the plane, one could very easily infer that "a gun was being held to the back of my head". Evidently, the actions of the SWAT team were naturally pretty frightening to the passengers sitting on the plane, particularly when they were told to either place their hands on the seat in front of them, or behind their heads, by folks pointing firearms in sweeping motions at the passengers. I would also think that when they took they deceased man's wife away for questioning, that added to the overall tension of the situation.

Posters here are quick to support the Air Marshall in this situation, but some of the same posters were very quick to support the British plainclothes team that shot and killed the young man earlier this year. Likewise, some posters are quick to condemn the Air Marshall for the exact same reasons. My advice is to wait until more facts come out before placing blame or making comments unsupportable by the facts.

[Thtwudbeme]

21. Here's what I am down on the air marshall's for

They were freaking out over 100 people in an enclosed space...

That's a pretty dangerous situation.

As far as the shooting, I have made no comment about that.

However, I will stick to my guns ( ;) ) on this one...crowd control needs to be more calming---

[seabeyond]

22. this is what i saw reading this. putting hand in back pack (with bomb)

boom, they shot him. or..... no backpack.... where is the reason for boom, shot him?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. That's one of my questions, too. How many renditions....

...did we hear about the story about the man shot to death while trying to board a subway train in the UK?

I'm thinking it will take a while for this story to get sorted out.

[Thtwudbeme]

26. You think the MSM is going to EVER get the full story?

With a user name like that?

Are you serious? OUR United States Media that didn't report a stolen election, a gay hooker spending the night in the WH....

But, now you think we are going to hear the truth eventually.

Seriously?

[seabeyond]

32. you are making assumption he is counting on msm for information

lol lol........ do we get any information from msm. no. but we do get pieces of truth thru other sources. more likely where we will hear this story too

[DELUSIONAL]

25. It sounds to me like they were primed to look for a victim

and someone with unmedicated mental illness was a very easy target.

It is now illegal to have a mental illness in the US.

It is absolutely unacceptable for INNOCENT PASSENGERS TO HAVE LOADED GUNS POINTED AT THEIR HEADS AND THREATENED.

The aftermath of this will be traumatic for anyone who had to endure this Nazi treatment.

As usual people will defend the government's actions -- no matter what they do -- even some here at DU.

Now I understand how Hitler managed to subdue Germany and people went along with the mass extermination of "undesirables" including one of his own relatives who was mentally ill.

[calico1]

29. I have a sister who has mental illness.

We have had situation where she totally freaks out and babbles incoherently and makes threats. She also sometimes would refuse to take her meds. That's the thing with the mentally ill that a lot of people don't realize. To stay stable they need to take their meds but a lot of times they don't take them because they are mentally ill and like my sister think people are trying to poison or that somehow its part of a plot against them. My sister is bedridden now. I am sure glad she is not well enough to travel because she would be one who could totally freak out. I don't know all the facts of this story. I would be interested in knowing if lethal force was the only option, if the marshall could have shot him in the leg, the shoulder, the arm, and not kill him dead. I guess because I have a mentally ill sister and know how she can act this story unnerves me.

[DELUSIONAL]

48. mental illness is more common that people realize

and the stress of travel (in the bushita era) can trigger an episode.

Also many people who need to take meds don't want to -- because of the side effects or some really think that "being crazy" is more normal then what we perceive as being "normal".

I am beginning to believe that law enforcement types are NOT trained about mental health issues -- because far too many people who don't respond to "commands" are being murdered by cops etc.

Also I've seen cops in situations and they were NOT acting like professionals -- they were completely out of control -- their rational mind (professional training)was not in control. Is there enough mental health screening of individuals entering law enforcement? From what I've seen -- I don't think so.

Unless one has had a close and personal encounter with someone who has a mental illness -- you can not recognize bazaar behavior as "mental illness".

Calico1 -- knows one such individual and has a different perspective. My sister is also bi-polar and before we understood what her problem was she would snap and "mouth off" to authority figures. She doesn't like to take her meds -- because she loves the highs that come with manic/depression. Plus the side effects are brutal -- the docs keep experimenting because each individual is different and there is no one magic pill to make everyone "normal".

bushita is not good for the mental health normal folk -- he can drive a sane person crazy.

[AzDar]

27. You know, last night, when I saw the footage of the (presumably)

F.B.I. blowing up the OTHER PASSENGERS' luggage,I was appalled.
But they put guns to the backs of their heads as well?
Something is terribly wrong here.

[JPZenger]

30. "Trained to Act, Not to Think"

From the little I know, it appears to me the shooting was justified. However, I was concerned by the following paraphrased quote from an Air Marshall official. He said our people are trained to reacted instantly, not to think. His point was, they need to be ready to act in a split second. However, what he said is, they shoot without thinking.

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. I saw an interview with a woman this morning who said they ran back

on the plane and pointed the gun at each and every passenger. We've gotten to the point where we are just supposed to "be okay" with this kind of behaviour on the part of law enforcement. That makes me sick more than anything...This was a case of going WAY OVERBOARD.

[seabeyond]

33. "be okay" .....makes me sick more than anything

i agree. adn if i dare to say, i have the right not to have loaded gun stuck to head, oh the cries. yet these people are the very people all my life protected me, and felt that no one had the right to intimidate me. now..... because it is law enforcement, it is ok. i think not

[ScreamingMeemie]

34. It's utter insanity. I would shudder to be pulled over by the cops

anymore.

[Thtwudbeme]

35. You and me both

I wrote above about having lunch on a major university campus with Michael, and watching a police officer pull out a gun and wave it around.

I just sat there looking out the window thinking, "omg...who can we call? The cops?"

Scary crap these days.

[calico1]

36. What is scarier is that a lot of people

are accepting this. Even here. That is scariest of all. Good god, this make me feel the right is winning the minds of Americans. Slowly but surely they are winning.

[Thtwudbeme]

37. Yep.

I would be looking for someone...anyone to sue the pants off of...calling the ACLU---but, I have read comments that indicate people think this is "normal" behavior.

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. We had a "drug bust" here in our neighborhood a few years ago.

We were eating dinner, and my daughter said,"Mom, there are men outside, shooting guns." Sure as shit, A team of DEA people shot down the door of a neighbor's house (mind you this is the suburbs...kids playing...summertime...safe neighborhood). what did they find? Well after hauling away the occupants (a man and his wife, in pajamas...aged 65) and some marijuana plants. I was steamed, the neighbors were steamed and the next council meeting was packed. It is out of hand. They can shoot somebody, make up a "terra-type" excuse and walk away. :grr:

[Jim__]

38. In an emergency situation, law enforcement usually treats people like

shit. I think it's part of their training. Taking control of the situation, etc. The times I've been around it, their actions are inflammatory. I'm not convinced that the types of things they do, e.g. pointing a gun at a bystanders head, are necessary.

Does anyone here have law enforcement training? And, do they think this type of behavior is justified?

[Spazito]

43. There is something that stinks in this story....

it just isn't adding up, imo. I wonder if the facts of this incident will ever come out.

[nomaco-10]

45. This guy and his wife were returning from doing ....

missionary work in Equador. Sadly, he looked too much like a Brasilian electrician I guess.
The hysterical atmosphere in this country that has induced widespread panic and paranoia is the most disturbing byproduct of this administration in my opinion.

[ezboardking]

47. Paranoid bastards

These paranoid bastards see a terrorist in every single human being they come across. Fact however is that this new breed of so called law enforcers are the real terrorists. They get their inspiration and instructions from a chain of command that starts from the real terrorist Mr.Bush.
These low grade officers have no sense of discretion, no judgement and no respect for human life. They are trigger happy m-fukkin arseholes whose thirst for human blood is growing by the day. They have no remorse for their actions instead they take pride in killing innocents. What they dont understand and dont want to understand is that the real terrorists are their own bosses and their bosses's bosses and everybody else in their chain of command.

[seabeyond]

51. i had a police officer tell me that, with my children sitting next to me.

they were 5 and 7. me, 41. getting 5 yr old backpack searched, after i had been pulled out of line, searched and a man stuck in my face to intimidate me

when i asked why the cop was standing there, she told me, to protect the sec employee from me. clearly, out loud the cop said. i told her, you treat everyone like an animal, they just may become. that was 5 years ago?

6:30 a.m. little airport in amarillo texas..... family of four off to florida. we really looked threatening. now, to be honest, i was a bit grumpy, still hadnt had enough coffee.