If he was running thru the AP screaming he had a bomb(as some DUers said)

[RagingInMiami]

Then why the hell didn't anybody else besides the two, unidentified marshalls hear him?

Miami International Airport is a very busy airport. Surely somebody else would have heard him if he was indeed "screaming that he had a bomb" as one of the marshals, who refused to give his name, told the Miami Herald.

I think the marshalls are lying about him saying he had a bomb. I'm sure they saw him storm off the plane and ordered him to stop, but he kept walking. The guy was obviously not in a stable condition.

I'm willing to bet that the feds overreacted and shot him dead and came up with that story about him saying he had a bomb.

Before 9/11, we had 33 U.S. Air Marshalls. Now we have more than 2,000.

Anytime you beef up a law enforcement agency by 4,000-5,000 percent (help me out, math gurus), you're bound to let some hotheads, cowboys and idiots slip through the cracks.

And we already know how incompetent this administration is. Who's to say that shrub did not give one of his cronies the job of beefing this agency up.

This is something that really needs to be looked into.

[Irreverend IX]

1. Have there been no eyewitness accounts? nt

[RagingInMiami]

2. So far , all we have are ear witness accounts

People who heard four to five gunshots.

[rucky]

3. Another question:

If the alleged "bomb" was in a backpack that he left on the plane, why did they make the passengers stay on the plane with it?

[RagingInMiami]

15. The two feds needed time to collaborate their stories

First fed: "OK, ok, he yelled that he was going to pull a gun on us."

Second fed: "No, man, that's not going to work. Terrorists don't carry guns. They carry bombs."

First fed: "OK, ok, so he had a dirty bomb!"

Second fed: (ponders for a moment) "Hmmm, that might work, but what is a dirty bomb?"

First fed: "You know, you stick it in your shoe or something."

Second fed: "No, that's the shoe bomb."

First fed: "Fuck it, let's just say he threatened us with a bomb."

[LostinVA]

24. I've been wondering that, too

[greyl]

4. He wasn't running through the airport screaming! edit:

He was several feet outside the plane, on the boarding bridge.

This thread should die, because of the sensationalistic and incorrect headline.

[RagingInMiami]

9. Tell that to the other sensationalists who inspired this thread

But just for you, I changed the thread title. Cheers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5542625#5542686

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5542625#5543776

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5542625#5543430

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5542625#5543276

[greyl]

13. Well that helps my understanding just a bit. :) nt

[laruemtt]

5. another curious 'coincidence' (which

this administration seems to keep amassing for some reason)is this comes just days after the 9/11 commission gives *bushco failing grades on implementing their suggestions to keep us safe. just sayin'................

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. Pinhead** sure is one lucky SOB.

[EFerrari]

6. If this is a mistake, how will they keep it quiet. 123 passengers

on that plane.

I heard on msnbc that the witnesses were still being "questioned by authorities." I can only wonder how much of that is actually coaching, not information gathering.

And idiot Chris Matthews kept saying things like, "there were signs posted, the man was noncompliant" -- memo to Tweety: during a psychotic event, your ability to read signs and to follow directions is impaired.

On edit: And how could he have a bomb in a screened carry on?

I feel so much safer now. :eyes:

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. I'm amazed that there just happened to be

two federal marshall right there at the right time.

How much you want to bet this fellow was causing trouble on the plane and that they called the authorities before they landed?

[greyl]

8. The marshall was already on the plane, right?

And let me get this straight: You are amazed that there were air marshalls in an airport?

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. MIA is a very big airport

the plane had come in from Columbia and the passengers had gone through customs and reboarded. It is not clear (from what I've read so far) whether or not the marshals were already on the plane when the passengers went back on, or just happened to be at the gate when this guy ran off the plane. I think it is odd that there would be two marshals assigned to the same plane and that since there aren't that many marshals that two of them just happened to be on this one. I do think that it will be very important to the investigation, whether or not the marshals had been alerted ahead of time that there was a problem passenger on this flight or if they just happened to be there.

[RagingInMiami]

11. It's Colombia

[leftchick]

17. The very first impression I had was

That this poor guy was causing a ruckus on the plane from Columbia to Miami, arguing loudly with his wife. No doubt the flight crew alerted Miami about the situation and the Air Marshals boarded the plane there with guns ablazing. Of course if this is the case it will never come out from the government. Our only hope for the truth is from a brave passenger or AA employee.

[B Calm]

12. Did the suicide bomber who killed 13 and injured at least 18 others

in an attack on a bus in Baghdad on Thursday scream I have a bomb? This Air Marshall in Miami over reacted!

[MrSlayer]

14. This was a CIA execution.

The "marshal" who shot this allegedly bi-polar man was actually a black ops CIA agent dispatched to assassinate Rigoberto Alpizar because he was going to report unknown truths about the Bush administration and their complicity with blowing up the levees during the Katrina disaster. He had to die.

[KC_25]

16. actually,

from what I understand, the man was an eyewitness to * ordering the levees blown and was about to speak out about it.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

19. If's the case

then why didn't "take him out" going to the airport, on the road away from every body.

[KC_25]

20. because then they wouldn't have

the cover story of the lunatic screaming I have a bomb, and when he died there would be a big ole conspiracy about it?

[rucky]

26. You can't post that without some kind of link.

not that you're linked to this. I meant a web link.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

18. I know!!! I know!!

Marshall's have there "frequency"
FBI have there own "frequency"
CIA have there own "frequency"
The Police have there own "frequency"
and the Sheriff's have there "frequency"


Ain't "HomeSecurity" great! :sarcasm:


Lets not foget about the local security with thair own walkie talkies with their own "frequency"

[RebelOne]

21. He was not running through the airport.

He was in the jetway, the tube that connects the plane to the terminal.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

23. well I should of read the WHOLE article first before posting

[Tactical Progressive]

22. The Air Marshalls are the only ones who heard anything about a bomb

at least so far.

Just saw a short interview with a woman on the plane who said he was trying to exit the plane and was acting agitated when the Marshalls on the plane were stopping him. She didn't hear anything about a bomb, contrary to some here on DU who keep referring to some guy 'running through the airport screaming that he had a bomb'.

She did hear his wife, who was collecting their carry-on baggage and trying to follow after him, say that 'He's sick' to the Marshalls. Others have apparently related that she said he had a medical condition and didn't take his meds. Sounds like a pretty good explanation for wanting to get off a plane if true.

Apparently as Rigoberto Alpizar was leaving the plane they demanded that he take the backpack he was wearing on his front, which they found suspicous, off and leave it. If you really thought it might be a bomb, why would you want it on or near the plane instead of away from the plane? His not giving up the bag, or reaching into it, was apparently what precipitated the shooting.

The animation I saw on the nightly news had him walking on the tarmac away from the plane when he was shot, it looked like from behind. But I wasn't paying close attention and who knows how accurate that early report was. If he was shot on the tarmac though, it really changes the exigency of the situation. In the open space, why couldn't they have shot him in the leg, if they had to shoot him at all? It might also mean that they followed him down the gangplank and told him to leave his backpack on the tarmac. I'm finding it hard to tell whether this whole confrontation occured just in or just outside the entrance to the plane, or all the way down the stairs.

I'm starting to get really skeptical at the official 'they did everything right and they had no other choice but to kill him' story that's being played. It's sounding more and more like some guy who was a little out of it getting agitated at not being allowed to leave a plane, then perhaps being followed out and reaching into his bag. None of which sounds like a planeful of passengers in danger.

Hopefully there is some video somewhere. You would think with all the new security that there would be videocams everywhere.

[RagingInMiami]

27. I hope there is video as well

And I hope it doesn't get seized by the feds like the videos after 9/11. What I don't like is how they're not releasing the names of the two feds who shot him.

That would give us a chance to research them to see if they have a history of shooting impulsively.

[Irreverend IX]

28. Why can't people get it through their heads

That shooting to wound only happens in movies? If you wanted to prevent the guy from reaching into the bag without shooting his torso, you would probably need to shoot both hands in about a second's time, which would take superhuman marksmanship. It is kind of strange that no one else heard him shouting that he had a bomb, but keep in mind that the only people in the connecting tube may have been the man and the air marshals, since I recall reading that he rushed out of the plane before the other passengers. If it comes out that he didn't have a bomb, the whole incident will have to be re-evaluated, but absent such a revelation I don't see how the air marshal could have made any other decision.

[Tactical Progressive]

29. Because you're wrong, that's why

In fact, you've got it exactly backwards. It's in the movies where people are shot and then continue right on. Either the bad guy takes a couple of rounds, then grabs another hostage to turn the tables or escape. Maybe limping a little, until he gets his bad-guy wind back. And the good guys of course, get shot, then surprise the bad guy when a minute later they get their good-guy wind back, grab their piece and rise from the ground to finish him off or continue the hunt. The only ones who die immediately are the extras. The main antagonist and protagonist are almost always 'bullet-resistant'.

It is in real life where if you get shot, even in the leg, even with something as puny as a .22, you're going down. Sure, a big guy, or the proverbial PCP-hyped superman could take a leg shot and keep going unfettered, but even they would be lucky to take a second and keep going. And with a 9-mm, or even a .38, forget about it - you're not taking a hit, let alone two, and running away. Even if you had kevlar pants you'd probably hit the pavement if you got hit with a medium caliber slug.

You got the movie part wrong and you seem to have very little understanding about the real power of firearms. Which is not a good basis for making the statement you did.

You're right on the main issue here - the importance of whether he even really said he had a bomb. We know he didn't have a bomb, or even a nail-clipper. We know - pretty sure - he didn't say he had a bomb as he was going up the aisle. Maybe he said it near the entrance where the Marshals confronted him, or in the walkway. I'm guessing that's where they may have heard him say bomb, or say they heard him say bomb, but if you heard the LE spokesman talk he only said there was a sentence with an allusion to a bomb. I think this is a key aspect and needs some positive proof.

As for your not seeing how any other decision could have been made, I think you should try harder.

[Retired AF Dem]

30. That is strange

during the famous Miami shootout Pratt received an unsurvivable heart wound with a Winchester silvertip 9mm than went on to kill two FBI agents. When the IL State Police was carrying the Smith&Wesson model 39 they engaged in a gun fight with a contract killer while he was on his motorcycle, bad guy took 33 hits from 9mm and two rounds of shotgun slugs and was still able to keep fighting until another trooper ran him over with his police car. The only person here that doesn't understand the power of firearms is you.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

[Tactical Progressive]

33. Uh huh.

Tell you what, get a friend to throw a couple of 9mm slugs into your leg and report back what happens. Please call an ambulance in advance, in fact, give them ten or fifteen minutes head-start. You'll want them getting there about the time you try this because you could be dead in five minutes, and if your femoral artery is severed, quicker than that. Since you understand the power of firearms so well. Wait, I don't want you to risk your life, so I'll tell you what would happen: you'll go down like a ton of bricks and probably be heading into unconsciousness shortly afterwards. At the very least you won't be walkin' around without your friend under your arm. (Really, don't try this. ;-))

BTW, thanks for the link. I browsed around a bit there - interesting stuff. I noted in one of the incident reports you linked to how a 6'5 officer went down immediately from a .223 in the arm. Admittedly that small-bore rifle round is stronger than a medium caliber pistol round, but it was still a small-bore shot to the arm and it took a big guy right down. Another guy took a round in the foot and it disabled him in that Miami gunfight. I also noted elsewhere that penetration is the big watchword from ballistic forensics. A .22 lr has pretty good penetration too.

Listen, I'm sure there are exceptional examples over the years of people taking a shot or even a few and holding up. After all, there are people walking around with bullet wounds. But I'd also venture a guess that most people who die from gunshot wounds probably die from just one. I'm sure I could go into the gungeon or whatever they call it here and listen to people talking about how you're not ever really safe unless you've got a .44 mag with Black Talons and triple-tap into the chest cavity. Just like I'm sure that there are people in The Gun Zone who feel the need to arm themselves against the maximum historical example of people not being stopped by such-and-such a firearm; maybe they won't feel totally safe until they carry a .357 long-slide under their jackets. That kind of stuff is expected when you belong to a culture, like the gun culture but others too like stereo equipment, where afficionados get entranced by the premium examples of their interests. It's natural; I do it all the time. But it's mostly bullshit. A good quality stereo system is indistinguishable from one costing ten times as much for 95% of everyday listeners, just like a plain old .38 or 9mm will deal with 95% of any situation most cops, let alone regular citizens, will ever confront.

I'll say it again, if those Air Martials had fired one or two 9mm rounds into Alpizar's leg he would have been on the ground. They would have been lucky to get paramedics there before he lapsed into unconsciousness, or worse.

Lastly, I think it's me who respects the power of firearms more than people who feel the need to arm themselves to the hilt and more than people who think a gunshot wound is something you just shrug off.

[Retired AF Dem]

34. FYI

The Air Marshals carry Sig's chambered in .357 Sig. Do a search the information is out there on thousands of people who were shot and never knew it until the fight was over. In my 24 years of LE experiance I have seen it or heard about it many times. I'm off to work but will be plenty happy to pm you some when I get home.

[Tactical Progressive]

35. I'm sure that out of the hundreds of thousands of people

shot in this country over the past couple of decades there might be a few thousand that didn't know they'd been shot in the heat of the conflict, likely with small caliber weapons. And there are probably many thousands more who get shot that sustain little trauma and nothing vital hit, just muscle mass. And I'm sure there are websites that list them all for people who don't feel safe without a .357 in the shower, so they can log on to obsess over how much 'stopping power' they must have. But the vast, vast, vast majority of gunshot wounds aren't something you just shrug off.

You don't seem to want to address that, instead pointing to the extreme cases of world-renowned firefights where the bad guys took three or four shots and kept up their assault, exceptional enough to make FBI history (and even in that case a 6'5 FBI agent goes straight down from a small-caliber round to the arm). Or now the tiny percentage of people who don't realize they've been shot until the threat is over and the adrenalin stops pounding. I can see why you're avoiding the obvious.

I'll say it one last time: if these Marshals had shot Rigo in the leg with a .357 or two, he would have been on the ground and not getting up. The fact that they carry .357 surprises me (I thought FAMs were going to be carrying 9mm or 10mm - .357 sounds like a bad weapon to be shooting on a plane especially when they were initially debating whether any kind of gunplay at all was advisable in jet aircraft.), but it just makes the case even more strongly that they could have taken him down without killing him in the same half a second it took to kill him. And you can point to the record of some guy East Oshkosh who once got shot by a .357 in the leg and kept running, but it won't change the fact that such a shot is going to knock just about anybody down. Just like the fact that some guy once fell off a five story building and lived to talk about it doesn't change the fact that if somebody gets thrown off a five story building they will die. They will, exceptional case notwithstanding.

And if one .357 in the leg doesn't do it, then two will, in the same amount of time it took them to put two in Rigo's chest.

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. Just like with 9/11, I don't believe and didn't believe the 'official'

report. My first reaction on the morning of 9/11 was :wtf: did bush** do? My first reaction upon hearing of the FAMs shooting of this poor man, was :wtf: did they do? I am so jaded and cynical of this malAdministration and anything attached to it. sElection did this to me and the lies about Iraq and WoMD. Color me a non believer from now till these thugs are out of power.

[EFerrari]

32. The Air Marshalls need training

on how to deal with mental health issues.

They will surely deal with more of those than with terrorists.

fwiw