Definition of victory in Iraq won't matter unless we insist on one now

[wiggs]

Infamous quote from anonymous Bush senior advisor:

"The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'"

We'll know we've won in Iraq when the administration tells us. We'll know when we hear it on TV. Sometime soon after the upcoming elections, Bush will announce that Iraq has had successful elections (regardless of whether or not they were), that troops will start coming home (even though most will stay to guard our permanent bases), that our goals have been met (even though we don't know what the goals are), and that our courageous military has given us a victory. Around that time the administration may even pull Bin Laden or Zarqawi out of its ass.

Many people will be so happy.

Renditions, Abu Ghraib, white phosphorous, 8.8 billion missing, Fallujah, Chalabi, WMD, DSM, and Plame will be old news...at least we'll be told that. And many will echo it. New misdeeds and problems in Iraq will be on page 24 of your local newspaper, for one day.

The victory will be an illusion of course, just as everything else is. But it may be an effective illusion because we haven't built a strong, durable, logical case RIGHT NOW. I see Dean doing something this week. I see Kerry doing something last week. I saw Murtha doing something the week before. And then Reid before that. They take turns, then disappear for a while. They jab but don't throw the right cross. They rope-a-dope for 5 rounds, do some jabbing in the 6th so the fans get excited, then rope-a-dope some more...land an uppercut, then rope-a-dope some more. Never finish. Never fully frame what is going on. Never fully expose the reality underneath the veneer of misinformation and spin.

We are missing -- have for years been missing -- important opportunities to expose the reality of this administration on a continuing, ongoing, unified basis. This should be easy, facing the worst administration ever. But it's getting away from us...they're getting away with it.

We therefore will let them tell us when we have a victory in Iraq...and when the price of chocolate does down.

[Erika]

1. I read a remark that said we may not be able to come to a

conclusion as to what victory is in Iraq.

Just like Vietnam, declare victory, peace with honor, and get the hell out of there.

But W is responsible for this one. Check our progress at www.icasualties.org

[wiggs]

2. Things I think can be done. Please add more.

All dem congressmen should call a press conference, together, and present facts about Iraq and WMD and troop strength. Include quotes from experts.

Publish a book documenting the democratic position and the failings of this administration.

Pay 5-10-20 million dollars to create ads on TV and radio that shines a light on Iraq and this administration.

Make the point repeatedly that this administration has not demonstrated that it is up to the task of resolving Iraq and mending foreign relations. Incompetence is a key word. A strong case can be made for incompetence...stronger than lying.

Dem leaders should lead a gigantic march on the White House

Reid should shut down the senate again...we have no idea what is going on with 9/11 phase 2 report. His heroics seem to have been wasted and need to be recaptured.

Dems, together, may want to say something about the GAO report and election reform

Demand answers everyday regarding white phosporous, torture, etc

Update the public on the missing Abu Ghraib photos

Organize talking points and spin doctors that are at least as well organized as the GOP ones...no need to fabricate and smear as they do...just organize and rely on the truth.

Show more anger and outrage.

[leftstreet]

4. "Show more anger and outrage"

Interesting. My work brings me in contact with a lot of senior citizens. Seniors who've also tended to vote Repub - for whatever reason. They spend a lot of time in front of the television. I'm amazed at how they've connected with sound-bites from Harry Reid, Howard Dean, Jack Murtha, etc. They're pissed about Iraq, and they like seeing strong anti-war statements.

Maybe it's living through WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.
:shrug:

[bahrbearian]

3. It will be after we Liberate the last barrel of Oil.

[KharmaTrain]

5. For A Profiteer The Goal Is Being Accomplished

The fog of war now really applies to the diversion this regime is playing over both its reasons and motives for "legitimizing" this invasion. It's all part of the same game...to make money and lots of it.

For years the military/industrial complex has moved to privitizing the military and exploiting it. It started with companies developing the munitions and weapons systems and now it's outsourced almost to the point of turning over the military itself to Bechtel or Haliburton.

For years billions were spent on systems with companies not only dying to see if they worked, but to push for billions in orders. You can only do this through war. The MZM scandals will open the door wide to the profiteers and how death and suffering has become a major industry in the United States and how this war was driven as much by the need for these corporations to reach into the public coffers as it ever had to do with any ideology or true security. Almost every action this regime has taken in Iraq has followed these interests and the principals in charge all have vested interests.

Leaving Iraq means losing a big gravy train for some of the Repugnicans biggest donors...millions in campaign contributions, lobbying jobs and other perks that could dry up if the military goes back to "peacetime" mode. Fear means big money and this regime is going to milk every last dime from the treasury and dole out the money while they can. They've waited 40 years to have control of the entire henhouse and they're not missing the chance to plunder it. They'll never be held accountable.

[wiggs]

7. Entirely agree. nt

[libodem]

6. What definition is Victory?

What is Victory in a case like this? Who wins?