Let's remember the victims.

[Texasgal]

Please, DU. Please take a moment of silence in memory of

Albert Owens, 26
Tsai-Shen Yang, 63
Yen-Yi Yang, 63
Ye-Chin Lin, 43

Tookie Williams has too much exposure on DU in the last several days. We have hardly spoken about his VICTIMS.

That is all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. You Are Right 100%. And Those Victims Will Have Their Justice Soon

regardless of whether the method used is appropriate.

God Bless Them All, and thanks for reminding us of those that first begged for mercy and were denied.

[Texasgal]

2. Thank you...

These VICTIMS were VICIOUSLY murdered, such a shame that these HUMAN BEINGS have not been brought up much.

Thank you. Peace.

[indie_voter]

3. Thank you! n/t

[Texasgal]

4. Your welcome Indie...

I wonder where the " Tookie fan club" is now?

Sad....very sad.

[...of J.Temperance]

44. The Tookie Fan Club right now is probably

Phoning, faxing and emailing like busy little beavers EVERYONE and ANYONE who they think might be able to save poor 'ole innocent Tookie.

[Endangered Specie]

48. yeah, last I checked they were praising ex gang members turned

rappers too.

Lovely company to be in bed with.

[...of J.Temperance]

56. Would that be Snoop Dog?

Jaysus...can praising Charles Manson be far behind? Afterall, he's just so misunderstood...and oh heck, he co-wrote some songs with Dennis Wilson from The Beach Boys...and you know, well, even though he's never said sorry to the relatives of the people he had murdered, surely that he co-wrote songs with Dennis Wilson SHOULD be enough for everyone to agree that he's redeemed himself and needs to be paroled.

:sarcasm:

On Edit: Dammit spelling error.

[Endangered Specie]

61. In my (brief ) time I have seen people praise Lenin, Castro,

Arafat, and Ive even witnessed faint understanding/tolerance of Kim Jong Il! (and critiscm directed at those who despise him and the DPRK)

all from people who are on "our side". and im pretty sure that list is incomplete.


So no, Charles Manson is not far off at all.

[Jed Dilligan]

109. Great guitarist and singer, Charles Manson

Neil Young thought he was the Next Big Thing in rock 'n roll. There, I did it. I praised Manson!

[hiaasenrocks]

67. I just did a quick scan of those "Save Tookie" threads...

There are about five or six of us in those threads taking on the Save Tookie Groupies.

And who are the Save Tookie Groupies? Just two people, who are posting incessantly about their cause (with no verifiable proof of their position, by the way).

If we didn't post in those threads, there would be two "Save Tookie" people talking to each other.

I propose we let them have their threads. We've tried for days to get them to debate the trial facts, and they just won't (or can't) do it. Why give their threads any action?

Let the two of them have their echo chamber.

Just a proposal.

Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

[Endangered Specie]

74. neh, I say we keep fighting...

and when Tookie finally does get the needle hes been begging for, I fully intend to mark that occasion with a :toast:, mainly in knowing that the efforts of all the people (its more than two I suspect) who get hard ons at the thought of this man being idolized were in vain.

[hiaasenrocks]

77. I know it would be hard to stay off those threads.

I would just like to see those two saying "Wow, what a powerful article you posted" back and forth, back and forth, with only the occasional "agree" post sprinkled in from some random passerby who buys their bullshit. They are so phony.

Just a thought.

And when justice is served on December 13th, I'll toast to that with you.

[indie_voter]

81. I agree, let them talk to themselves. n/t ;)

edited to add: though no toast from me either.

[Ekirh]

83. I won't toast

the execution with you if it does happen due to my stance. However, if Clemency is not granted I hope a lesson is learned in the fact that blatent (and easily disproven) propaganda can hinder rather than enhance or help a cause.

You know I can almost respect . . actually I can respect those with a strong opinion that Tookie is innocent or more than likely Tookie has reformed. An Opinion, even a strong one, can change with the presentation of fact and presentation of actual data.

Problem is for some it seems strong opinion has turned into blind faith in which in the present of fact put right before them they either simply refuse to believe or more than likely they rather choose to ignore.

Despite our differences in what we want the out come to be. . . I hope in the future my fellow Anti D.P's can agree that adovcating or demanding clemency for death penalty cases is one thing. . . but we cannot be dupped and we cannot always believe that they are always innocence or we can not always claim that everyone on death row is simply a victim of the system.

Tookie Williams killed four people, he refuses to snitch or more appropriately give information on a organization that he helped to create which has cauased countless more murders. Life in Prision or executed by Lethal Injection . . We're both hoping for different outcomes . . . but in the end one thing we can agree on . . . Tookie is not a victim.


I apologize if I rambled or for any grammer or spelling errors. I'm about to fall asleep but I wanted to type this before I go.

I sincerely wish you a good night.

[Endangered Specie]

91. youre right, that would be telling...

but by God I cant help it im stubborn and hard headed its so hard to resist breaking up a circle jerk. O8)

[ProfessorGAC]

123. It's What The Ignore Thread Button Is For

My position on the DP is intractable. I always oppose it.

However, i am so uncomfortable with raising a convicted, and admitted, murderer to celebrity status, that i hit the ignore thread button on all of those.
The Professor

[hiaasenrocks]

145. Yeah, I know.

I finally started using it. I'm now ignoring people who bring up Nazis/Hitler in an argument. It's clear at that point that, well, they really don't have a point.

Ignore List: 2 so far. :)

[U4ikLefty]

85. Which DUers get a "hard on" about Tookie being "idolized"???

n/t

[Texasgal]

87. Just search " Tookie"

You'll find them...

[Silverhair]

112. Fight !! Post rebuttals to their lies, or others will believe them.

That claim the jury was all white, and other lies. If we don't post the FACTS, nobody else will.

[hiaasenrocks]

115. You're right. After sleeping on it...

I retract this idea.

I was looking for a way to avoid the frustration, and in the process hopefully isolate the Tookie Groupies (I do believe they are rare). But if we do that, more people might believe their outright deliberate lies.

You are correct.

[Texasgal]

5. KICK!

:kick:

[Texasgal]

6. Hey TOOKIE FANS!

Why aren't you taking a moment of silence for his victims??

[hiaasenrocks]

15. Their absence from this thread speaks volumes. n/t

[Endangered Specie]

20. Sadly enough, Im not terribly suprised by it either.

[Aimah]

16. Do they need to post to take a moment of silence?

[sandnsea]

24. Hey I just saw the thread

So I'm here. I suspect others decided not to intrude on this little display of bloodthirsting vengeance disguised as bullshit sympathy. But hey, not me, call me anything if not a consistent pain in the ass. I'm not going to let anybody pretend that this thread is about anything more than the trumped up feel-good, lynch mob "justice" that executions provide.

[hiaasenrocks]

27. A bitter and childish response.

Nothing but flame-bait.

[Endangered Specie]

31. at least they are responding now, no?

:nopity:

[hiaasenrocks]

36. LOL. I'm sure that person's transparent flame-bait will

be obvious to most people.

[sandnsea]

39. As was the intention of the OP

Nothing but flame-bait. And a lust for vengeance.

[Texasgal]

53. Lust for vengance?

I don't think so.

Sadly, the whole DP debate has been overshadowed by The " I LOVE tookie" crowd... How about showing a little empathy for the victims?

[sandnsea]

55. "I LOVE TOOKIE CROWD"

Oh, so this thread WAS a veiled attack on the "I LOVE Tookie crowd"??? Amaaazing.

Yes, those who support the death penalty have a sick bloodlust for vengeance. No two ways about it.

[Texasgal]

59. Yada....yada..

So of I disagree with you, than I must be a freeper or some blood thirsty hound dog?

Give me a break!

For some reason, people have not been able to take their minds away from the DP issue, they are too busy shoving their collective noses up Tookie's bum!

Have you READ any of the threads? Do you see what is going on?

Want to stop state sponsored executions? Tookie is not a very good poster child. Start somewhere else!

[sandnsea]

68. Are you kidding???

What would you propose people do when someone is about to be executed??? What did you THINK would fill up the board at DU??

Not Tookie!?! Then WHO? Who is more deserving of not being executed then a guy who has devoted his life to stopping gang violence, from ON DEATH ROW.

Do YOU see what is going on? Good lord. How am I supposed to think you've got anything going on but bloodlust if you can't even muster up some empathy for a guy who has done so much to turn kids away from crime.

Death penalty threads always run along the same lines on DU, and it always boils down to "kill the scum" on the pro-death penalty side.

[Codeine]

69. But I honestly don't see that he's done that much! n/t

[Texasgal]

76. Devoted his life to

stop gang violence?

I think not.... he was running the crips from PRISON up until ten years ago... tell me where he devoted his LIFE to anything?? So? he wrote book? Did a few seminars? BIG WHOOP!

Not only that... he has NEVER apologized to the families of those he has killed!

You obviously have been jaded by the Tookie propaganda. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

89. You obviously know better

So I won't bother going over what he's done because it's obvious you know more than what you wrote, but your bloodlust for his death won't let you admit it.

No, he hasn't apologized for the murders. He maintains his innocence in those murders. That's his right and I don't know one way or the other. I've read the trial testimony and other case information and it is possible that another person did the crimes.

But that's not my primary purpose for supporting his clemency. If we don't believe in the ability of humans to change, then there isn't much to have hope in at all. And if people don't believe this man changed, or that our political climate has become so charged that governors are afraid to exercise their right to grant clemency when its due, then we have much more serious problems than Tookie Williams.

[Texasgal]

92. I only "obviously" know better

because his gang running exploits were actually posted with a link here on DU! The search function can take you to some really interesting links!


Id like to comment on this: "If we don't believe in the ability of humans to change, then there isn't much to have hope in at all. And if people don't believe this man changed, or that our political climate has become so charged that governors are afraid to exercise their right to grant clemency when its due, then we have much more serious problems than Tookie Williams."

So... do you think someone like GWB could be "reformed"? Hitler?

The deal with Tookie is that he is trying to save hos neck, he hired a publicist and has written some books... he certainly has not devoted his "life" to helping others. His supporters are wild propganda spreaders...many of his "claims" have been debunked.

[sandnsea]

95. Well my heavens yes

Just about anybody can be reformed. And even for those who can't, they can certainly be kept secure in an environment that will lend itself to as healthy a pscyhe as possible, instead of this repulsive, denegrating system we have now. We are on a path of complete demonization in this country. Nobody escapes it. We wonder why everybody is so hateful, well if demonization is the first rule, what do you expect the result to be.

[Aimah]

120. What do you exactly mean by "flame bait"?

It seems to me that there were flame comments going on used as bait to bring DP opponents to the thread. Why ask why they aren't here. Why should it matter that they didn't post? Why use a remembrance and "moment of silence" thread to call others out? It seems like you and others participating here got what you wanted.

[ProfessorGAC]

125. You Obviously Didn't Read The Posts

Several here are, and always have been, intractably against the death penalty. But, the slavering worship in the other threads calling for clemency have been intellectually and factually dishonest and do not engender empathy or sympathy.

I'm from IL, and we've had plenty of innocent people exonerated years after the fact. The facts in those cases were, however, clear. There is no evidence that Williams is innocent. Merely that he's changed, coupled with the fact that the death penalty is a moral wrong. The latter two points i cannot argue. The first is plenty open to interpretation.
The Professor

[TreasonousBastard]

105. I am not a "Tookie Fan" but...

I have heard this "remember the victims" theme at every one of the thousand executions since they started again. And at trials and sentencing phases, and anywhere it else it could fit in.

Those of us who have fought the death penalty and for prison reform have had it thrown at us at every opportunity by DP proponents, rightwingers, and others with an axe to grind.

Few of us are naive enough to believe that most of them on death row are nice people or deserving of any more sympathy than their victims, but we fight the penalty on other grounds and do not believe acivilized state has the right to order killing. Trying to halt this execution does nothing to increase the pain of the survivors just as executing him will do nothing to reduce it. That tragedy is done and this is a new one we are trying to stop.

Sure, there are always a few who fall for the extreme propaganda and lionize the perpetrator, but it remains that many of us are aware that there are some, admittedly very few, who have had some sort of epiphany during their time in stir. While it may be important to keep the public safe from their returning to the streets, we ask why there is such an urgency from some quarters to kill them, particularly after there has been some apparent change in them.

[MissB]

119. Wow! Trying to create discord on DU?

I haven't posted to any of the Tookie threads. I clicked on this one thinking it was about Katrina victims.

This post of yours is wayyyyy out of line. You have an opinion on the Williams clemency case and others have a different opinion. Calling out fellow DU members is completely uncalled for.

Shame on you.

[Mutley]

134. I suppose they have to post to have a moment of silence?

They can't have a moment of silence anonymously? BTW, I'm not necessarily a Tookie fan, per se, just against capital punishment.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. kick for justice

[Walt Starr]

9. For Justice n/t

[Codeine]

10. Huzzah.

Somebody gets it. I'm no fan of the DP, but people crying over Stanley Williams make me fucking sick.

[Codeine]

11. Kick for the victims!

[Nicole]

12. another kick for the victims

[indie_voter]

13. another kick and a touching editorial toon

Thank you to a poster in the debate thread for posting this. I thought it belonged here too.

[Nicole]

131. great post

[hiaasenrocks]

14. Absolutely. GREAT post!

Thank you for posting this.

[Endangered Specie]

17. Let us also send our sympathies to the victim's loved ones.

Im sure each victim had at least a dozen relatives whose lives have been ruined too.

[sandnsea]

18. They received justice 24 years ago

Their voices were heard in a court of law and a jury pronounced their killer guilty. They then sentenced him. Justice served. There is nothing more that can be done for them.

What is to be done now, 24 years later, is to decide whether the Tookie Williams sitting in a California cell is the same Tookie Williams who took their lives. If he is not, then he deserves his justice as well. A commutation to life in prison does not seem to be too much for him to ask.

There is absolutely no way that killing that man will bring any more justice to those victims than they've already gotten.

[Endangered Specie]

21. 24 years ago he was condenmed to die

I see no reason to change that, especially for someone like Tookie. Dont let his "good deeds while in prison" decieve you, he is trying to save his own worthless neck.

[sandnsea]

28. Not everybody's a sadistic bastard

Revel in your bloodlust vengeance sham of a justice system. I'm sick of it. The man's death doesn't serve any purpose.

[Endangered Specie]

30. Oh, Im sure he's a changed man

I bet he really regrets what he did :sarcasm:

What purpose does wasting taxpayer money on keeping this son of a bitch alive serve?

[sandnsea]

34. Your humanity

Look inside yourself and try to find it.

[Endangered Specie]

47. you first.

would you not want to see someone who killed someone you loved punished? or would you prefer a bunch of people actively love and support him, and not give a damn about how you felt?

[sandnsea]

54. No I would not

I would absolutely prefer a society where we actively love and support every human being, even those that we've deemed too dangerous to be set out in society. I don't believe it serves our common humanity to treat any human with less than the most dignity that can be managed in the securist setting required.

Second time this week I've had to remind people about that wise guy who said it is easy to love our friends, the true sign of humanity is loving our enemies.

[Endangered Specie]

72. Well, Ill let you cuddle him then...

I suppose we should give the man psychiatric help, who knows maybe a feather fell on him as a child and scarred him for life and he aint responsible for anything he does.

:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

82. Yep, what would be so terrible about that?

What would be so hideously terrible about helping humans become whole? Hmm? Locked away so they could never hurt anyone again, but also helping them become whole human beings? Why would that be so tragic?

You don't have enough humanity to care for EVERY human being? Is that it?

Killing them makes you feel all warm and cozy inside, does it?

[Endangered Specie]

88. Well, here is a thought for you...

divert all that money youd want to spend on caring for the killer and, oh I dont know, maybe give it to help the grieving families?! Or is that too much to ask?


You don't have enough humanity to care for EVERY human being?
You bet your ass I dont care about Everyone on this planet. There are a number of people I despise in this world and I think I have damn good reasons for it. (I suppose you would like to see Kim Jong Il get a reduced sentence if he ever ended up in front of a courtroom?)



Killing them makes you feel all warm and cozy inside, does it?
I sleep a little better knowing that unredeemable cold blooded murders no longer roam the planet and will never hurt anyone again.

[sandnsea]

90. Bloodlust vengeance

Yep. That's what I said. And if that post didn't prove it, then I don't know what will.

Oh, and there isn't any reason that grieving families AND incarcerated people can't BOTH be given ALL the help they need. What a shocking idea!!

I'm done here.

[Endangered Specie]

94. Before you leave, think you could say one nice thing about the victims?

Or is that beyond your level of holier-than-thou humanity?

[sandnsea]

96. I already said no

I won't be manipulated by this bullshit thread.

[Endangered Specie]

97. There you have it folks!

you can't make this shit up!

[sandnsea]

100. "unredeemable cold blooded murderers"

Yeah, cuz this thread was all about the victims. :eyes:

On edit:

To make it clear, you exploited the victims with this thread. In case you don't get that yet either.

[Lars39]

102. I don't know Tookie from a Wookie,

but from the OP and following this thread, it's pretty clear it was started to continue a flame-war.
How the heck is that supposed to be honoring the victims?

[sandnsea]

106. It took me waaay too long

But I did just figure out that that's what pissed me off about that "Tookie Fans" comment. Don't use a self-righteous claim of honoring the victims as an excuse to continue a bash fest. I've pretty much stayed out of the Tookie threads, until this one. I can't stand hypocrites.

[Aimah]

121. I agree

It's sad

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

107. That I might do

In the morning. When more people will see it and I can gather up enough information to do it right. Really post about who they were and how they came to be in this country and how the murders affected their families. You know, a real memorial.

[Endangered Specie]

108. I hope you have better luck than me,

I have not been able to find out very much information about them :(

[hiaasenrocks]

143. I've been trying to find some in-depth information

on these victims and their families.

Nada. Nothing in the media. Zip.

[mattclearing]

127. Whatever.

You sound like a freaking Jerry Kilgore ad. Give it up.

[Nicole]

136. unbelievable!

:(

[hiaasenrocks]

25. She didn't say anything about justice.

She said let's remember the victims.

Won't you join us?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

37. Yes this thread is

Don't even pretend. I'll be damned if I will. That's all this thread is. A veiled attempt to pretend to give a shit about those victims when what these people really want is to express their bloodlust. See post #30. That's all they're ever about.

[Codeine]

46. I can only attest to my own view

which is that the DP should be commuted to life without parole. But I will save my sympathy for the people who died at the hands of a cold-hearted piece of shit who has been transformed into a hero by the misinformed and misguided. None of the "Save Tookie" crowd ever had a kind word or thought in the other threads for the victims and their families, so I will do it here.

[sandnsea]

52. Which is your right

But I'm not going to pretend that there aren't ulterior motives with this thread and that it's original purpose had nothing to do with the victims and their families. Because it became obvious very quickly that it didn't. If it had taken a respectful tone and stayed that way, I wouldn't have said a word. But it didn't.

[Codeine]

58. That's the point. You'd never have said a word.

Never a word or thought for the victim. Thousands for the perpetrator.

[sandnsea]

70. Well, that's not what I meant

And I imagine you know that, but if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

[hiaasenrocks]

35. It's official, I guess.

If you remember the victims of violent crime, then you're a freeper. :puke: You are obviously completely devoid of anything substantive to say.

I'm not interested in your transparent flame-bait. Please seek attention somewhere else. This is all you'll hear from me.

Have a good night. :hi:

[sandnsea]

43. Hey TOOKIE FANS

Yeah, that's what you were all about. :eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

Funny you mention free republic...

Normally Id associate them as being the low life type that would give sympathy and support to mass murders of innocent people and leaders of gangs of thugs.

Who would have known that we have that on DU, sad don't you think?

[sandnsea]

42. Yeah they are

Think about that. So who's supporting wholesale murder at the hand of a government that has been proven to be corrupt? Not me.

[Endangered Specie]

45. wholesale? last I checked they are only executing him once...

answer me this, is Tookie guilty or innocent of the crimes he was convicted of? If the answer is guilty, than how exactly is the government corrupt in carrying out the justice as prescribed by the law?

[sandnsea]

50. We're on 1,000 executions

Give me a friggin' break. Are you saying the death penalty isn't handed down on blacks more than whites? Are you saying we haven't found fraud and lies and incompetence in capital cases?

Do you even know that the gun was found under the bed of somebody else, and that that somebody else is known to have murdered people in robberies as well?

Do you know that the people who testified against him either escaped the death penalty or got off altogether?

If you're not questioning how we implement the death penalty, then you're part of wholesale murder. Just like you believe Tookie to be.

[Endangered Specie]

71. Oh, so now Im the one to blame...

I suppose thats better than your type blaming the victims.

But, to answer some of those questions, it might suprise you to know that I am all for reform of the legal/justice system. As far as the facts about the case go, people who testify and get deals is nothing new, its called frying the bigger fish.


you may now resume in beatifying the scum of the earth.

[sandnsea]

79. Your answer is telling

In how you skirted the important points I made and reverted to shooting the messenger.

So, are you for reforming the justice system or against beatifying the scum of the earth?

Because if you really call for reform, then it necessarily requires standing up for the rights of some of those "scums of the earth". Maybe you didn't know that because you've never actually taken a stand on a reform case.

[Endangered Specie]

84. Seeing as to how you didnt make any important points...

I fail to see how I was skirting anything.


So, are you for reforming the justice system or against beatifying the scum of the earth?

why, Im for both. One does not accomplish reform by trying to exhonorate the textbook case of someone who deserves to pay the ultimate price.


Maybe you didn't know that because you've never actually taken a stand on a reform case.
I didnt know you were psychic.

[Endangered Specie]

99. see post 96

:banghead:

[hiaasenrocks]

101. Good grief.

I wasn't reading that person's threads (obvious flame-bait poster) but on your recommendation I checked out that exchange.

I'm not surprised. She was just looking for an argument anyway. And, I noticed, she was repeating the same misinformation that has been debunked in all of the other Save Tookie threads.

I'm not going to waste my time with her. But I applaud your patience.

:rofl:

[Endangered Specie]

104. Been my pleasure

I just want to expose them for who they really are.

[Fescue4u]

63. THats ridiculous

How can you just write them off like that?

Justice is not an empty promise.

[nonconformist]

135. It's interesting that you word it like that

Because, using your example, justice actually hasn't been served. His sentence was death, and that hasn't yet been carried out.

Truthfully, I'm ambivalent about this situation. But the irony in your statement was worth noting.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

137. So You Want To Take Away The Victims' Justice? You just said their

justice was their voice at trial and the sentence, but now you are trying to appeal to have that sentence changed, when their voice can no longer be heard?

[Ekirh]

19. Against the D.P

In all cases (Including Tookie's)

But allow me to post in rememberance of the real victims.

[hiaasenrocks]

22. Good post.

Hopefully we'll hear from the two people who are pretty much running the entire "Save Tookie" campaign here on DU.

Thank you for joining in the remembrance.

[Greyhound]

38. Ditto

[StellaBlue]

23. thanks for this

They should be remembered.

[Endangered Specie]

26. Interesting read from one of the victim's loved ones...

http://www.sacunion.com/pages/california/articles/6911/

[sandnsea]

32. Interesting

The story doesn't match the headline. Why am I not surprised.

"Owens did not say whether she believes Williams should be executed for the 1979 murders of her father, Albert Owens, and three others, or whether she agreed with the jury that sentenced him to die. She encouraged the students to get all the facts before making decisions.

“Look into the whole story,” said Owens, a widowed mother of four who was 8 years old when her father was murdered in the convenience store where he worked. “Make an informed decision. What bad can come from having all the facts?”

[...of J.Temperance]

40. I'll boost your thread for you...and gladly so

I already voted earlier.

I'm disgusted at how the Tookie Williams Fan Club, just completely ignores the four innocent people that he murdered in cold blood. It's a disgrace, they've had at least 40 threads about this sonofabitch and not ONE thread has mentioned his victims...the only time the victims have been mentioned in those threads has been when people like us have brought the victims up.

Tookie Williams is GUILTY, he was found guilty by a jury of his peers, he was sentenced to death...he should have been executed at least 10 years ago...not have been allowed to waste California taxpayers money by having appeals. He should have gone the way of Robert Alton Harris, right after Harris was executed.

No doubt the Tookie Fan Club would ALSO defend Harris and say he had "rehabilitated" himself as well...it beggars belief, I just for the LIFE of me CANNOT understand where the heck these people are coming from.

To CONSISTENTLY defend a piece of shit like Stanley Williams, who is a sociopath and a habitual liar...and at the same time as they're defending him, to just sweep aside or just ignore his four innocent victims...it's just a method of thinking that I don't understand at all.

Stanley Williams will get this hearing on December 9th, but on December 13th he will be executed and justice will be served...and the family and friends of his four innocent victims will be able to finally have some closure.

[rug]

41. OK, I remembered the victims.

You can kill him now.

[SammyWinstonJack]

49. How sad all around.

:cry:

[northzax]

51. Kill Tookie NOW

then his victims will come back to life, right?

I can plainly state that no matter how disgusted I am with a person, no human being should be killed by the State in some misguided sense of justice. I don't think the DP applied to Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot, so why should it apply to Tookie Williams?

Let him spend the rest of his life vainly trying to redeem himself for his crimes, working, during the day, to help stop others from making the same mistakes, while spending his nights staring at the walls of a cell. It is not for me, or anyone else, to decide when a person's life is to end. for the record, assuming he's actually guilty of the crimes, not just legally guilty, he can never fully redeem himself, but let him try.

[Texasgal]

57. Nice response...

Funny thing though... all of the "tookie fan clubs" would have you believing that he is innocent and has done nothing wrong.

Unfortunately, we here at DU are incapable of debating about the DP in general.... the "debates" over the last several; days have centered around his innocence... it's pretty sad.

[Codeine]

60. That is sad.

I hate the DP, but I just can't align myself with the Tookie crowd. Their priorities are all out of whack.

[Texasgal]

65. There you have it!

Perfect choice of words! PRIORITY! :)

I am not a huge DP advocate, I believe that the system is broken and needs help, but for people to sit here an actually defend and use propaganda to get their points across is disgusting!

[Endangered Specie]

66. Its important to seperate the 'anti-DP' from the 'I love Tookie' crowd...

I can understand why people oppose the DP, I cant for the life of me figure out why people pick people like Stanley Williams to canonize.

[sandnsea]

75. Well you know

The problem is that you don't always get to choose who you align with on these matters. This is one of those rare cases where there are circumstances beyond the actual rightness or wrongness of the death penalty. Most of the time, the person being executed has done nothing redeeming since their sentencing, so there's not much to rally around. That's where this case is different. Some people are convinced he's innocent, and that's their business I guess. But there is no denying what the man has done to fight gangs, and that's worth something. This isn't the case where you just turn away because it's distasteful or has a few kooks involved. The man does not deserve to die.

[Codeine]

78. He *ABSOLUTELY* deserves to die.

I just don't want the state to make that decision. I'm anti-DP, but I firmly hold the philosophical view that some people deserve death. Tookie is one of them.

[sandnsea]

80. Oh, that makes sense

What do you prefer? A lynch mob?

[Codeine]

86. Of course not.

The difference between believing someone has well and truly earned death is different from desiring that any such sentence actually be carried out. I don't want the death penalty in my country, but I can't find it in my heart to love and forgive and redeem a man like Tookie. He deserves only contempt. He ended the existence of four living beings for no reason.

[sandnsea]

93. That's different

I would likely never be able to forgive that guy who murdered that little girl down in San Diego. If he did some kind of breakthrough work on child murderers though, I might. But I understand what you're saying. Although I still think society would be alot better served if that guy were provided a healthy environment with appropriate treatment, permanently. I think it would create a healthier national pscyhe which could only lead to less horrendous acts, not more. Executing somebody who is trying to do good just seems to me to be the antithesis of deterring murder.

[northzax]

64. well, think of it this way

and I, personally, have no idea if he actually did the thing she was convicted for.

So think of it. Knowing what you know, if Tookie Williams was named Bernard Johnson, would be be on Death Row? Why are there no white men on death row in California for killing black men? Why is it that over 70% of homicides committed by black men are against other black men, but, in Virginia, 90% of the black men on Death Row are there for killing white folk?

in a perfect world, I would still oppose the Death Penalty, on moral grounds, but in an imperfect world, I don't see how anyone can support it.

[Texasgal]

73. Racial conflict happens

in alot of trials... it's sad. I understand your point and I respect what you have to say.

However, there are several on this board that think Tookie is innocent and should be granted freedom. Why? Why has nobody even brought up the victims in this case? He was tried and convicted, he has exhausted all of his appeals, the evidence speaks volumes... he did it. Read the court transcripts, they don't lie!

He is also admittedly stated that he was the founder of the nasty little gang called the crips, which he continued to run from his jail cell up to ten years ago.

If a moratorium on state executions is what you would like to see, more people would would come to your ideology if they would stop coddling these convicted murderers.

Took is not a good poster child for abolishing the DP.

[hiaasenrocks]

128. Well said. And a kick for this thread! n/t

[northzax]

129. that's exactly why he is a good poster child for abolishing the DP

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord, and all that jazz. I don't want to see a 'moratorium' on state executions, I want to see a broad based cultural recognition that the State has no business killing in our names, as every other developed nation has done.

Failing that, I want either a directly responsive system, one in which there appears to be a direct connection between crime and punishment. This 20 years crap is useless. If you want a deterrent, not just vengance, do it this way: rewrite state laws. if you are convicted of first degree murder, there are two sentancing options, 20 years in prison or death. Make the Jury decide. If they want the person back on the streets in 20 years, fine, otherwise, kill them. Your execution is set for two weeks after your sentencing. you may, of course, appeal. If you have not been executed within two years of your sentencing, your sentence is commuted to the 20 years. Life sentences are stupid, let people out or kill them.

Make a direct connection between crime and punishment, make it nasty, brutish, public and fast. That is a deterrent. All this trying to kil people more humanely, or more fairly, is silly and degrading. Either do it, or don't. The problem is, the people in favour of the State having the power of life and death know that if they do it so openly, and swiftly, that the tradition will not stand. We don't really like it, as a people, and if confronted with what is done in our name, the grisly tradition will cease.

An example: John Muhummad, the Beltway sniper. Confessed and convicted. Why is he still alive? kill him. The reason everyone had forgotten about William's victims is that it was two decades ago. The attempt to sanitize the killing of Williams, and legitimize it, has removed it from any connection the rationale for the entire thing.

So, with the current system, there is no deterrent effect, no real justice for the victims, since they have to wait 20 years, and be involved in the entire process (a jail term is like a fire and forget missile, the thing is done, the guy's locked up, we can move on; a death sentence keeps the victims' families and friends on edge for 15 years, what's fair about that?) so the only remaining point must be revenge. And the State should not be in the revenge business.

to be clear: there is no reason to have both life sentances without parole and a Death Penalty. They are the same sentence, just one is passive and the other active. Both need not exist. Since we have the Death Penalty, obviously anyone not worthy of execution should be releasable at some point, otherwise it is a death sentence that the State doesn't have the balls to pull off itself. 20 years or death. for everyone convicted of murder. Why have any other punishment? it makes no sense.

[Codeine]

132. Because sometimes we get it wrong. n/t

[Fescue4u]

62. THANK YOU.

Im so tired of hearing from the groupies.

[eridani]

98. Of course Tookie is guilty

We know because another guy in his jail cell heard him "confess" and then by sheerest coincidence got a bunch of years knocked off his sentence. And I'm Marie of Roumania.

I certainly don't know that Williams is innocent, but I do think that this horseshit about getting convictions mainly on the basis of the testimony of jailhouse snitches ought to stop immediately. And no one should ever be put to death on the basis of such testimony.

[Thtwudbeme]

110. Yes, let's do remember the victims; that is the only proper thing to do

and then we need to realize that more deaths, Tookie's death, will not solve any problems, nor benefit even one person on this thread.

Everyone on this thread who is for the death penalty...the legalized killing by the state...needs to look in there hearts, and ask themselves some serious questions.

Since you all are apparently unable to get past the "justice" thing...I would start with this:

Why do you think the US death penalty is in anyway, shape or fashion "fair?" There are people serving life sentences right now that are just as heinous as Tookie...I ask you to look at Susan Smith. Is it fair that she gets life, while Tookie gets death?

If it's indeed not fair...and you should "google" and educate yourselves on who is in for life...who got the death penalty BEFORE you answer this question...then why do we have it?

You are the people Ghandi was referring to when he made his famous statement about "an eye for an eye..." You are blinding yourselves towards being compassionate, and the truth about the justice system in the US.

Stephanie

[Silverhair]

111. Kick

[Texasgal]

113. Too bad that this remembrance thread

has turned into another thread about Tookie and not his victims.

I should have stayed away from it and not let it deginerate into what it is.

I am sorry....

[hiaasenrocks]

114. Wednesday check-in....

Keep the victims of this murderer in mind as we approach the execution date.

Thanks again to Texasgal for starting this thread.

[jim3775]

116. I sick of hearing how Williams is the victim in this case.

Thank you for posting this

[malmapus]

117. Agreed, and thanks for posting this.

Frankly pretty sick of only hearing about Williams and nothing on the four who lost their lives to him.

Think that cartoon up in this thread sums up my feelings. He denied them all these chances and experiences in their lives.

[Thtwudbeme]

118. please read my post above

I don't think Tookie is a victim; I think that another death is just going to cause more ugliness in the world.

The death penalty is morally wrong.

[jim3775]

124. I agree with you the DP is morally wrong

I do not support it. But Tookie's biggest supporter who has been spamming the forums has tried to say Tookie the victim of a racist all-white jury and was convicted on bad evidence. Both claims are untrue.

[indie_voter]

122. kick

[hiaasenrocks]

126. Kick for justice n/t

[Nicole]

130. kick

[hiaasenrocks]

139. kick for justice

[Aretha]

133. Kick

[rug]

138. When this thread is done

who would you like killed next?

[Silverhair]

140. How about "John Nixon".

He is scheduled for Dec 14. He did a murder-for-hire. He has been on death row for about 20 years. It is time he kept his date.

[rug]

141. Start a thread then.

[Rex]

142. So this is the bastard responsible for the 'crips'?'

I believe a person can reform over a certain period of time. I also believe that everyone should pay for their crimes. Just let the guy rot in prison and continue to write children books. I believe he is guilty of the crimes based on what I've read about the case. However, murder is murder. I believe war is wrong and so is taking another persons life for evil reasons. Let him rot. He still would have the liberty to pursue a life of writing books to better young lives. IMO, life without parole.

[hiaasenrocks]

144. Kick for justice on Dec 13. n/t

[Nicole]

146. Victim's family member speaks out

Lora Owens whose stepson, Albert, was killed by Williams during a convenience store robbery 26 years ago was on Good Morning America today. She had this to say:

"If there is a controversy against the death penalty, then they need to go to the legislature and work to get it changed, but don't stand behind a killer like Williams because then they don't care what he did," she said. "It could have been your child instead of our child."

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is expected to review Williams' case today in a closed-door clemency hearing. If Williams' sentence is not commuted to life in prison, Owens says she plans to attend the execution.

"It's not going to be an easy thing," Owens said. "I don't celebrate this man's death, but I believe Albert expects it and I will be there for my son."


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1385338

[hiaasenrocks]

147. Thanks for that post. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

148. I don't support the death penalty. In any circumstances

Doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for murder victims or their families.