did you know that Lincoln slept in the same bed with a guy for 4 years?

[thereismore]

[lvx35]

1. no. do tell!

[toymachines]

2. No kidding

[jobycom]

3. Mary Todd Lincoln, you mean?

[rucky]

4. She didn't always have Todd in her name. n/t

[tsetaerg]

6. really what was her maiden name by chance

todd?

[jobycom]

9. No, I guess there were a few moments after birth before her father

filled out the paperwork, when she was just called "the baby."

[RoyGBiv]

32. What? n/t

[rucky]

35. it was a really bad attempt at humor. n/t

[MADem]

5. Yes, it is pretty well known

Joshua Speed was his bedmate. This is where the term "Log Cabin Republicans" originates. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/49/news-ireland.php Interesting article on the book that came out this past year on the subject.

I often wondered if this had an effect on Mary Todd, they say she was somewhat "hysterical."

[tsetaerg]

10. she might be

hysterical, coming to bed with two guys in bed ,today no big thing.
people get in bed with everyone these days..ask a republican.

[lvx35]

14. hehe. Do you really think he was gay?

I mean I know gay people have been there all through history...But Lincoln?

[MADem]

17. If you read his early poetry and his letters to Joshua Speed, you really

have a hard time coming to any other conclusion. Check that link I posted upthread--interesting article, with quotes from his letters and other writings...

[RoyGBiv]

30. I disagree ...

Modern notions of heterosexual masculine behavior influence that conclusion.

I've read through so much 19th century correspondence I couldn't begin to describe it all, but one thing that comes through rather clear is that, at least in writing, men during this era had no qualms expressing themselves to other men in the same way you see Lincoln expressing himself to Speed. They would refer to each other as "My dearest" or even "Darling," and offer expressions of "greatest love and affection," which were spelled out in sometimes eloquent, other times cheesy, but non-sexual ways. It think it is a stretch to conclude that the entire literate male population of the mid-19th century was gay, or even that the sampling I've personally seen was gay.

As for the sleeping together thing, so what. This was also quite common in the 19th century. Poor heating, small residences, etc. made it a necessity.

[lvx35]

34. Interesting stuff, I had no idea.

It reminds of this gay guy I knew in seattle...he hooked up with this outwardly cold agressive businessman, but said he didn't really want to fool around, he just wanted to lay in bed next to him and cry and share emotions etc. I thought that was telling in some way about our culture that for a guy to do that with another man, he has to go to a gay bar. Its interesting to think that's a new thing, and men in the past didn't have problems expressing emotional love without it being sexual.

[RoyGBiv]

39. If you want really intimate ...

Find some letters from Civil War soldiers written before or after a big battle. These come in two forms: The first is a mundane accounting of camp life or very brief battle summary that was written intentionally so as not to alarm family. The second is an outpouring of emotion about fear, the meaning of life, love, relationships. The former tend to be written to wives, mothers, girlfriends, etc. The latter tend to be written to male friends, brothers, or fathers with the caveat that the contents not be revealed to the family or "sensitive women folk." In the 19th century, men often expressed themselves more truthfully to other men than to women.

I wish I hadn't seen this thread this time of the morning. I should be sleeping. :-)

Anyway, I dug out some books and articles looking for a few things. There are two things that have stirred once again this long simmering controversy. The first is the supposed find of an intimate diary written by Joshua Speed that details his and Lincoln's relationship. Unfortunately, the person who "found" this won't let anyone see it. The second, more important event is the publication of CA Tripp's _The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln_, the author of which died shortly after finishing the manuscript.

Tripp is a former colleague of Alfred Kinsey, and much of his work on this book was inspired by that association. Unfortunately, he took massive logical leaps to try to interpret behaviors and anecdotes attributed to Lincoln from a variety of sources, not all of which are even viable, in the context of modern knowledge about sexual behavior and development. One of the most outlandish claims made by Tripp, already mentioned, was his determining that Lincoln reached puberty at the age of nine. Simply stated, Tripp had no way of knowing this, but what's even more bizarre is that he seems to think it matters.

For the record, I care not one whit whether Lincoln was gay. Based on the evidence we have, I think it is possible. What I do care about is historical accuracy, and I can be incredibly irritated by those who set out from the beginning to prove a point without first having researched that point. I get more irritated when the point is supported by falsified evidence, sloppy methodology, and selective citations of evidence without even an attempt at critical analysis of that evidence. This particular subject is burdned by rampant "partisanship" on the issue from individuals who are scarcely history buffs, much less actual historians. David Donald, one of the more recent Lincoln biographers, probably offered the best analysis currently possible, which I summarized above. It's possible, but we don't know and may never know.

For anyone who is interested, here is a Salon article on Tripp's book that came out earlier this year. It summarizes my thoughts rather well. (Subscription or day-pass required for the full article.)

By Andrew O'Hehir

Jan. 12, 2005 | Let's skip over the question of whether Abraham Lincoln was gay for a minute, especially since we don't know and, absent some startling revelation, we never will. (Let's also bypass the related question of whether we should care.) The question that bothers me, right now, is why a book quite as bad as "The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln" had to be published. It's a book that does nothing except fling mud on the reputation of its author and require reviewers to speak ill of the dead. This posthumous (and evidently unfinished) volume by the well-respected sex researcher C.A. Tripp purports to marshal the evidence that our greatest president possessed "a plentiful homosexual response," to use the author's terminology. In fact, it does nothing of the kind.

Tripp's manuscript is such a mishmash of supposition, rumor, half-cooked research and specious reasoning that he assassinates his own case almost as thoroughly as John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln himself. Contrary to what much of the pre-publication propaganda has claimed, from Gore Vidal's fascinating but misleading online Vanity Fair feature to Doug Ireland's vastly overstated L.A. Weekly article, Tripp has no smoking gun, as it were, on the question of Lincoln's sexual behavior. (In fact, Ireland's article and early publicity materials refer to claims that seem to have disappeared from Tripp's book, including allegations that early acquaintance A.Y. Ellis and law partner Henry C. Whitney.
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2005/01/12/lincoln/

[lvx35]

66. Either way I think its cool.

With Cheney and Bush and "bring it on", all the republican's today thinking they have to be so manly and tough, I think its cool that America's great republican president and war leader seemed to be a soft, sentimental emotional soul, which is what comes through most clear in those letters.

[MADem]

36. The poem about the two men marrying? That surely was not typical

And the details in the letter seem OTT even by the standards of the day. And why, as President, does he still need to sleep with guys?

A shortage of beds, sure, but not for four years...and then while President?

And that guy going on and on about how Lincoln kisses him like a girl? Naaaah....

And the letters back and forth before each married? I am not convinced that this was how everyone wrote--surely we'd see more of it in the history books. I've read a load of florid prose in history books, but nothing like this.

You could call him gay, or bi, or whatever, but that's not typical hetero behavior, I don't think, even back in those days.

And even a society matron thought Lincoln's behavior untypical enough to mention it in writing contemporaneously, herself...

So, I remain convinced he was gay or bi. YMMV.

[RoyGBiv]

38. If that poem is genuine ...

...and I'm not entirely convinced it was... it was written when he was a teenager, is bad, and leads to no conclusion at all. People read conclusions into it, as did Dr. Tripp who apparently found the poem a few years before he died.

You also seem to be misinformed. Speed and Lincoln met each other in the 1830's, and the stories of their sleeping in the same bed while they shared living quarters in Springfield, Illinois date from that period. Obviously Lincoln was not President then.

Which "society matron" would that be, and when was her anecdote recorded?

[MADem]

48. You need to click on that link I provided upthread, I am not misinformed

I was referring to the guy he slept with when Mary was out of town. The one he liked to kiss, who wore his nightshirts when they slept together--THAT guy, not Speed. Did you not look at the link I provided before disagreeing? That's ususally a good idea.

That was the guy the matron wrote about. I will excerpt the key portion for you--but do go upthread and read the whole the whole article, it is instructive:

One of them was the handsome David Derickson, by nine years the president’s junior, captain of Lincoln’s bodyguard Company K, the unit assigned to ensure Lincoln’s protection in September 1862. Citing a variety of sources — including an autobiographical essay by Captain (later Major) Dickerson, Lincoln’s letters, contemporary diaries and historical accounts written while many of the witnesses to the Derickson-Lincoln relationship were still living — Tripp describes in great detail how Derickson was the object of "the kinds of gentle and concentrated high-focus attention from Lincoln that Henry C. Whitney, from having himself once been on the receiving end, well described: ‘ as if he wooed me to close intimacy and friendship, a kind of courtship, as indeed it was.’"

Lincoln’s seduction of Dickerson was more than successful. Tripp discovered a forgotten volume of Union Army history, an account of The Pennsylvania Volunteers, Second Regiment, Bucktail Brigade, published in 1895 by Derickson’s commander, Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Chamberlin, who was historian of the Bucktail Survivors Association, and in which he recounted:

"Captain Derickson, in particular, advanced so far in the President’s confidence and esteem that in Mrs. Lincoln’s absence he frequently spent the night at his cottage , sleeping in the same bed with him, and — it is said — making use of his Excellency’s night-shirt! Thus began an intimacy that continued unbroken until the following spring, when Captain Derickson was appointed provost marshal of the Nineteenth Pennsylvania District, with headquarters in Meadville."

The Dickerson-Lincoln affair was common gossip in Washington’s high society, as Tripp notes with a citation from the diary of the wife of Assistant Navy Secretary Gustavus Fox: "Tish says, Oh, there is a Bucktail soldier here devoted to the president, drives with him, and when Mrs. L is not home, sleeps with him. What stuff!"

[long_green]

43. The example that pops into my head

is from Lee's Lieutenants by Douglas Southall Freeman. Late in the war, one William Pegram, an artillery officer, is mortally wounded. The account of his death comes from a comrade and friend who writes that he cradled his dying friend in his arms and covered his face with kisses. If you want to, it's very easy to look at that and go "Hmmmm."

[KharmaTrain]

44. Yep...But It Sure Got A Rise Out Here

I guess somehow if Lincoln is found to have been gay, this legitimizes him? I don't get it.

Just like you, I've looked at lots of 19th century writings and letters. Lincoln's letters are very much on public display...a great collection are at the Chicago Historical Society. I can remember having to read some of these back in high school and thinking in those less P.C. days how "gay" the writing was.

One big custom of that time was "bundling"...where people would share beds and conserve heat...the accomodations at Holiday Inns weren't quite up to snuff in those days. Those cold winters on the open prairie created some interesting, and some would say very odd behaviors.

Recently I saw a special on how Lincoln was a manic depressive and now this story...how the hell did he fight a war when he supposedly had all these demons in his closet?

[kskiska]

64. The same applies to Eleanor Roosevelt's letters

to her lady friends. Women of that age employed a very flowery style of writing, which seems very quaint today. It does not necessarily mean they were lesbians.

[MADem]

65. Not really--the difference is, no matter what Eleanor's orientation, she

did not found, and never had a leadership position in, a party that wanted to deny basic rights to people on the basis of their orientation.

[QC]

73. "I would love to kiss you on that little mole above your lip."

That doesn't sound like golf buddies to me. It's true that things have changed since the 1930s, but I don't think they have changed that much.

[RoyGBiv]

28. Dupe

[RoyGBiv]

29. Hysterical ...

Mary Todd, like many of the Todds, likely suffered from a bi-polar disorder and/or chronic depression, which manifested itself with violent mood swings and outwardly odd behaviors such as going on shopping sprees at highly inappropriate times. This has been determined by analyzing her reportedly strange behaviors through the lens of a modern clinical psychology as best as this is possible as well as examining the medical history of various Todd descendants, many of whom suffer from these disorders.

Obviously her disease wouldn't have been diagnosed accurately at the time, much less treated competently, so we have this image passed down through history of a screaming psychopath whom Abe should have locked in a basement and called it a day.

[MoonRiver]

47. I think the notion that Lincoln had a homosexual affair has been debunked

by historians. Apparently, many men slept in small beds together at that time. The purpose was to save money when traveling. And, most beds in the inns were small at that time.

[MADem]

51. Actually, I don't think it has been either debunked or decisively proven

But Carl Sandberg's oblique LAVENDER remark suggests he thought the guy wasn't exclusively heterosexual. And the Bucktail soldier he slept with in the Summer White House, that was not a case of saving money, or travelling--and there are two contemporaneous sources (the journal of the society matron, and the regiment history) that support that assertion.

I think he was bi, if anything. The real irony is it looks like Lincoln, the founder of the GOP, a party now trying to ban gay marriage, is, if viewed in the most ardent rightwing light, a little "ambiguous" at most. It is rather rich....

[MoonRiver]

54. You apparently know a lot more about this than I.

Very interesting topic though. Can you recommend a book on Lincoln which is actually honest and factual, instead of hype?

[MADem]

55. The Sandburg work is said to be the classic WRT him.

It being so long ago, and the opinions so varying, the best thing might be to ingest it all, if you have the inclination or the time, and come to your own conclusion!

Doris Kearns Goodwin (of the forgot to footnote fame, but by all accounts a very thorough historian otherwise) recently did a political bio on him, but I do not think it touches much on the personal, if at all. http://www.doriskearnsgoodwin.com/

[MoonRiver]

57. Thanks!

I'll check out both of them.

[The_Mule]

58. I can field that one.

My wife is a big history nut. She suggested "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln", edited by Roy Basler. It is comprehensive and a very well put together resource. Yes, his poems are in there, and no, they are not "gay".

You can also search his complete works online at the University of Michigan: http://www.hti.umich.edu/l/lincoln/ or at the Abraham Lincoln Association: http://www.alincolnassoc.com/.

What's with the fascination with someone being possibly gay? I find Lincoln to be at turns inspiring and infuriating. There's a lot more to fascinate concerning Lincoln than whether or not he was gay.

[MADem]

59. It isn't fascination, it's POLITICS...and the ironic juxtaposition between

the possibility that Lincoln was gay or bisexual, and the fact that he founded the GOP, and the fact that the present GOP wants to outlaw gay marriage and deny basic human rights to a segment of our population in the worst possible way. It's sort of like hearing reports that the founders of PETA were ordering the filet mignon every Sunday at Mortons, had huge collections of leather footwear and accessories, and liked to wear tiger fur in secret!

If the GOP were not so adamant about denying basic rights to our gay citizens, the Lincoln business would be a slightly interesting blip, and nothing more.

[goclark]

63. I'm with you MADem

I fine Lincoln fascinating.

Gay or not gay, I find reading about him fascinating.

It is POLITICS pure and simple.

"If the GOP were not so adamant about denying basic rights to our gay citizens, the Lincoln business would be a slightly interesting blip, and nothing more."

[MoonRiver]

61. What's fascinating to me is factual stuff about historical figures.

I don't like propaganda. Whether Lincoln was bi, gay, or straight is irrelevant to me. I just enjoy reading real history.

And thanks for the additional references! :hi:

[MADem]

56. You have to think he had enough room when he became President though

And as President, it is a bit odd to be loaning your nightshirt to your bodyguard and crawling into the sack with him--during the hot SUMMER....

And that account, of Lincoln sleeping with the soldier in the summer WH while Mary was away, is supported by two contemporaneous accounts, the regimental history and the society matron's diary.

[barb162]

7. No, do tell

[Hardrada]

8. I guess Carl Sandburg missed that!

[jobycom]

13. Apparently not

One of the few traditional Lincolnists to describe (however obliquely) the lifelong Lincoln-Speed relationship as homosexual was the Illinois poet Carl Sandburg, in his masterful, six-volume Lincoln biography. In the tome titled The Prairie Years (1926), Sandburg wrote that both Lincoln and Speed had "a streak of lavender, and spots soft as May violets."

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/49/news-ireland.php

[Hardrada]

16. Oh Fuck!!

And I've read that whole GD set too! I thought I was better at trivia! I'm going to have to reread sly Sandburg!

[alphafemale]

11. Who...his brother?

Hey...good for him if he found comfort in the way you're implying, though.

Lore has it Mary Todd was incapable through much of her life of healthy interplay, poor woman.

[Susan43]

12. Yes

It was common in those days for people to sleep together. If you take a look at the culture of the time, it wasn't necessarily sexual. People had to get along with less in those days, so they often shared beds.

[SoCalDem]

15. and they probably smelled pretty "reeky" too..

[Sapphocrat]

19. Heh.

READ the poems Lincoln wrote about his "friend," and get back to me on that.

[Journeyman]

21. Have you a link for these poems? . . .

or selected quotes? . . .

[Sapphocrat]

24. Sure...

Don't go anywhere. I think they're on Gutenberg. Back in a moment!

[Journeyman]

26. Thank you.

I'm working late tonight. I'll be interested in seeing these.

[Sapphocrat]

27. Here's a selected quote.

Couldn't find it on Gutenberg (although I'll dig deeper later), and this is not about Joshua Speed -- it's a lovely (if jarringly metre-challenged) little piece Abe wrote as a teenager:

I will tell you a Joke about Jewel and Mary
It is neither a Joke nor a Story
For Rubin and Charles has married two girls
But Billy has married a boy

The girlies he had tried on every Side
But none could he get to agree
All was in vain he went home again
And since that is married to Natty

So Billy and Natty agreed very well
And mama's well pleased at the match
The egg it is laid* but Natty's afraid
The Shell is So Soft that it never will hatch

But Betsy she said you Cursed bald head
My Suitor you never Can be
Beside your low crotch** proclaims you a botch
And that never Can serve for me

* Readers much more edu-ma-cated than I say the "egg" reference is to a "jelly baby"... ehhh, read the link yourself. It's kinda icky. LOL

** slang for big penis

Make what you will of it, but that's a very odd thing for a straight teenage boy to compose.

There are one or two others -- as I said, I'll hunt for them.

[RoyGBiv]

37. The poem ...

That poem was found by Dr. CA Tripp, who wrote the book about the (so-called) secret life of Abraham Lincoln. I don't recall the actual title off the top of my head and am too lazy to look at the moment.

Historians have strongly questioned the veracity of his various finds, which strangely no other Lincoln biographer or researcher has managed to encounter despite the fact he is among the top two the most studied Presidents, indeed people, in American history. I don't consider it a conspiracy that he happened to die after completing the book, but it did prevent him from being able to answer questions about his sources that remain unanswered two years later.

Tripp also makes some rather broad logical leaps, such as concluding the age at which Lincoln reached puberty based on an extrapolation of comments about Lincoln, the boy's, "manliness" at a young age offered by Dr. Herndon and applying various theories by Kinsey, a former colleague incidentally. Herndon himself exaggerated or took anecdotes from his and Lincoln's partnership, whether accurate or not, and presented them as basic fact. In truth we know very little about Lincoln's childhood or teenage years except through these anecdotes, which, again, may or may not be entirely accurate.

I mention this just to note that interested readers should take Tripp, and anything based off his book, with a bit of salt.

[foreigncorrespondent]

23. Why am I picturing...

...Mommy Dearest Bush saying not to damage her "beautiful mind" with those kinds of images for?

[Solly Mack]

18. Yes

[Sapphocrat]

20. Lends a whole new meaning...

...to "Log Cabin Republican," doesn't it?

[Freedomfried]

22. Repressed homosexuality seems to be a Republican trademark today

the "roots" go deep.

[otohara]

25. Thus...The Log Cabin Republican's

thank old Abe for that one!

[tirechewer]

31. No...

But if you hummed a few bars I could fake it.:bounce:

[Neil Lisst]

33. Yes, and his name was Gary Bauer

Ok, it wasn't, but it should have been.

[TomClash]

40. Jeff Gannon's Great Great Grandfather?

They don't call it the Lincoln bedroom for nothing!

[formercia]

41. Poverty sucks

[triguy46]

42. A somewhat selective interpretation of fact...

or at least not giving us the entire story. I assume you're referring to the sleeping together on the circuit while travelling the wilderness of frontier Illinois. In that case, you were lucky to have a bed at all, and a second body was de riguer.

Melville had Ishmael climb into bed with Queequeg in Chapter One of Moby Dick. What does that mean??????? Is this a Gannon like tale of bawdy boys on the high seas????

[QC]

45. Well, considering how homoerotic Moby Dick is, and how gay Melville was,

I'm not sure if that example makes your case very well ;-)

That said, I do agree that the Lincoln stuff is questionable, since 19th century conventions of friendship and masculinity were so different than ours.

[triguy46]

50. I forgot we are now all using a post modern lens...

for literary interpretation.:yoiks:

[QC]

75. You don't have to be particularly po-mo (or homo) to see homoreoticism

in Moby Dick. It's enough to be literate.

I don't really think we can know about Lincoln for sure, and frankly don't care much, either, but it's amazing to see the logical gyrations and historical loopdeloops people will do to keep from considering the possibility that someone they admire might have been gay. If only they were half so reluctant to declare that people like Limbaugh were secretly gay.

[MrMonk]

70. What about Jack London?

For the man's man that he was, he wrote some very detailed descriptions of sculpted male physiques, while only lightly touching on the ladies'.

But now we're moving off topic.

[Toots]

46. A lot of people did that in those days it don't mean nothing

Lincoln was married and had children which he loved very deeply. Spare bedrooms were not a given like they are in today's world..

[FlaGranny]

49. In answer to the entire thread -

a question - who cares? Lincoln was Lincoln. His sex life was his own - it makes no difference.

[bertha katzenengel]

52. So what?

:eyes:

[bertha katzenengel]

53. So what?

:eyes:

[WI_DEM]

60. Yes, much discussion on this, apparently it wasn't unusual in 19th

Century for two men to sleep in the same bed together when they took a room together to save expenses.

[kweerwolf]

62. I have some issues with Tripp's book ...

... like, for instance, when he makes a leap to the "conclusion" that Lincoln was more success in his marriage than Speed was in his because Lincoln was a "top." That's assuming facts clearly not in evidence.

But since Tripp died shortly before the book was published, I've wondered if he would have edited such conclusions a bit differently had he lived longer.

While Tripp's book is interesting and adds new information (such as the bucktail soldier mentioned in earlier posts), I find that Jonathan Ned Katz's book "Love Stories" to be move convincing about Lincoln's same-sex relationships. The Lincoln-Speed relationship is only the first chapter in that book, but its a far more concise view of it and doesn't bring problematic sources like Kinsey's own research into the mix to make the picture murky.

And as a final note, I really disturbs me to when people say "who cares?" to the whole question of Lincoln's (or other historical personages') sexuality. I care, for one ... and I'm sick of seeing gay peoples' place in history swept under the carpet by heterosexuals who either don't bother or can't keep their homophobia in check.

[AZBlue]

67. Yeah. So what? Who cares? What's the point??

:shrug:

[Rex]

68. The point is to post and see how many people will reply

notice how he hasn't told us who.

:popcorn:

[MrMonk]

69. What was the prevailing attitude towards homosexuality

during Lincoln's time? Considering that evangelical churches were pretty well established, I'm guessing that it was publically denounced, but, in practice, pretty well tolerated.

Anyone here have insight into that?

[slackmaster]

71. Not this crap again

:eyes:

[liontamer]

72. yes

[LaPera]

74. Aren't you just shocked? Unaware Americans lead the world being "shocked"

Especially when the live their lives with their heads in a hole, believe whatever is told to them...and then they find out a "conspiracy" and/or lie is actually true, WOW, you mean someone just lied for power & profit, I don't believe it...Why would the corporate media not tell us, isn't that their job?

And then they are "shocked" so "shocked"!

Wait until they finally realize 9-11 wasn't just this neat & tidy job, done by some just some guys with box cutters, as they were fed and still believe.

We'll find a lot more "shocked" people.

[Avalux]

76. Locking.

I guess the question is, does it really matter?