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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:43 PM
Original message
If oil is made from 'fossils' or plant remains
then where did the gas and tar come from that they claim is on Titan?


Saturn's Largest Moon Has Dramatic Weather
Nov 30, 8:34 PM ET

PARIS - Saturn's planet-size moon Titan has dramatic weather, with turbulent high-altitude winds, periodic floods of liquid methane and possibly lightning, scientists said Wednesday in describing a world that may look like Earth before life developed.

The European Space Agency's probe landed on Titan in January, uncovering some mysteries of the methane-rich globe — the only moon in the solar system known to have a thick atmosphere. Scientists presented detailed results of months of study in the online edition of the journal Nature and at a news conference in Paris.

"It's a very strange fantasy world made of ice, with things like gasoline and tar that make up the rivers and the lake beds," said scientist Jonathan Lunine of the University of Arizona, when asked how he would explain the finding to a child.

"If you try to walk around on it, your feet might get stuck in some places, you'd slide down into methane rivers in other places, and you'd better watch out for the ammonia volcanoes," he said. "And absolutely bring a big heavy coat, because it's really cold — and bring a tank of oxygen because there's no oxygen to breathe, but don't light a match."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051201/ap_on_sc/europe_titan;_ylt=Au2Xt0XCRpNvMOVeDKKzraOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MzV0MTdmBHNlYwM3NTM-
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afdip Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. yeah, well if there's no oxygen, you won't be able to light a match
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Not Only That,...
but if a match is dangerous, how bad is lightning? Also, if they sent a probe, why all the guessing still?

Jay
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. To quote the pigboy,
words mean things.

Two very important words in your highlighted sentence are things like.

There's not gasoline and tar, there are things LIKE gasoline and tar. You know, organic molecules.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Wouldn't organic molecules
indicate 'living' organisms?

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No.
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 02:50 PM by trotsky
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577017/Carbon.html

Today chemists consider nearly any compound that contains carbon to be organic, whether they obtain it from organisms or synthesize it in a laboratory or in factories. Compounds that do not contain carbon are called inorganic compounds.
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evirus Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. correct
you have to remember that theres no "magic" behind tar, or gasoline. its just a bunch of chemical bonds essentialy
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Correct, Trotsky
The entire field of organic chemistry is focused around the reaction and mechanism of carbon based molecules. The only things that chemists (like i used to be) consider inorganic if carbon is present are carbides and carbonates. (CO2, baking soda, metal carbides, et al) This is because the mechanisms are rooted in how the OTHER atoms work. In the case of baking soda, the sodium and oxygen dictate the formation and propagation. The carbon is going along for the ride. In organic, the reaction is based upon how carbon atoms behave.

So, everything from methane to DNA is an organic chemical. The universe is FULL of methane. Hundreds of trillions of metric tons of it. And that, indeed, is an organic chemical.
The Professor
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I thought methane was from dinosaur farts.
:silly: Lots and lots and lots of dinosaur farts.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Um! No!
I mean, it is ONE source of methane. But, unfortunately, i have to burst your bubble. (Get it? I'm so funny!)
The Professor
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I think I've seen those bubbles.
La Brea tar pits, right? :dunce: (Just like my bathwater.) :silly:
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. I thought you said you were an economics professor.
:freak: Whassup with that?

:kick:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Now you can see why
I failed HS Chem. I hated that class.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Any carbon-based molecule is an organic molecule
Per my organic chemistry professor :-)
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. You are correct!
I edited my post to just quote a real definition. Mine was incomplete!
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Not Quite True
See my post just above yours! There are exceptions, although for narrowly technical reasons.
The Professor
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evirus Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. well you have to remember
the universe didnt start at the same time that life on earth started. taking our own solar system the chances of a planet having life on it would be 1 in 9 whats to say that either titan has life on it before we where able to explore with probes, or even be the resualt of the planets gravity "capturing" a run away planet resualting in it becomming a moon
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. Gas can come from methane
Tar? Not sure. The majority of petroleum deposits came from plankton and one celled organisms that died at the end of the Cambrian era.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. all your dinosaurs are belong to me! and my hummer!
:P

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WildClarySage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Yes, but where did all the Taco Bell beans that created the methane
come from?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. It doesn't really have gasoline and tar
Titan has, I believe, ethane, liquid methane, other small-chain hydrocarbons, etc. These all form readily through basic chemical reactions, while gasoline is a longer carbon chain that doesn't form readily from basic carbon stocks like methane.

Like he said, he used those analogies "when asked how he would explain the findings to a child." You want to torture a 9-yr old with college-level organic chemical synthesis reactions :-)
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not only that, where did all the methane come from without cow farts?
A lot of the solar system is rich in organic compounds, comets in particular. It's not because there's life, it's because there's carbon, and carbon bonds with other elements in specific ways that make organic compounds.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. Simple hydrocarbons like methane
can be generated without the presence of life. Generally, the more complex the hydrocarbon, the more chance life played a role in generating it. The simple hydrocarbons were part of the "prmiordial ooze" in experiments that have confirmed that at least simple protein chains can occur spontaneously in the conditions one deducts were present on a primordial earth.

However, I see no reason why there couldn't be life forms on Titan. We know that on earth there are bacteria that exist without the presence of oxygen, which kills them. We've seen bacteria existing in the extreme cold of Antarctica and the extreme heat of deep sea volcanic vents.

The view I like best is that life is an artifact of planets and will arise no matter what the planetary enviroment is like. The discovery of at least bacterial life on other planets is inevitable, IMO. Whether or not we'll discover more complex organisms is less certain.
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Heewack Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. From NYT article
A NASA-built instrument on the Huygens craft analyzed atmospheric gases in its descent and found that the source of the methane appeared to be the interior of Titan. Biological processes or degrading organic material can produce methane, the primary component of natural gas on Earth.

"We have determined that Titan's methane is not of biological origin, so it must be replenished by geologic processes on Titan," said Hasso Niemann of the Goddard Space Flight Center, a principal NASA investigator for the instrument.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/science/01titan.html
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. Abiotic oil;
is oil that was formed out of primordial elements and predates the Earth. Just as methane and other gases exist on the moons of Juniter and Saturn so do the proponents of this theory say the oil and natural gas comes from. Maybe there is not an end to the oil deposits after all. Maybe they just have to drill 20 miles down.




Doug Payton is quite taken with the theory of abiotic oil, the theory that petroleum is not a fossil fuel but is in fact generated by completely non-biological and largely inorganic sources. He cites a couple of sources to back that up.

To be clear, I'm not saying the abiotic theorists are lunatics, crackpots, dangerous, etc. I'm just saying: "show me the money." Telling me you can produce hydrocarbons by just subjecting iron, limestone, and water to high pressure is interesting--in fact, it's very interesting, and probably helps explain why hydrocarbons are so abundant in the universe--but in terms of energy production, it's about like telling me that you can squeeze combustible hydrogen out of seawater. Yeah, you can do it, and...?

http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1132682686.shtml

and;

The abyssal, abiotic theory of oil formation has received more attention in the West recently because of the work of retired Cornell astronomy professor Thomas Gold, who is known for development of several theories that were initially dismissed, but eventually proven true, including the existence of neutron stars. He has also been wrong, however; he was a proponent of the "steady state" theory of the universe, which has since been discarded for the "Big Bang" theory. Gold's theory of oil formation, which he expounded in a book entitled The Deep Hot Biosphere, is that hydrogen and carbon, under high temperatures and pressures found in the mantle during the formation of the Earth, form hydrocarbon molecules which have gradually leaked up to the surface through cracks in rocks. The organic materials which are found in petroleum deposits are easily explained by the metabolism of bacteria which have been found in extreme environments similar to Earth's mantle. These hyperthermophiles, or bacteria which thrive in extreme environments, have been found in hydrothermal vents, at the bottom of volcanoes, and in places where scientists formerly believed life was not possible. Gold argues that the mantle contains vast numbers of these bacteria.

The abiogenic origin of petroleum deposits would explain some phenomena that are not currently understood, such as why petroleum deposits almost always contain biologically inert helium. Based on his theory, Gold persuaded the Swedish State Power Board to drill for oil in a rock that had been fractured by an ancient meteorite. It was a good test of his theory because the rock was not sedimentary and would not contain remains of plant or marine life. The drilling was successful, although not enough oil was found to make the field commercially viable. The abiotic theory, if true, could affect estimates of how much oil remains in the Earth's crust.

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1130.html
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. This is interesting
But from what I see (as a non-geologist and non-chemist) none of this is anywhere near proved and the evidence so far is on the other side.

But if oil would be abiotic then that is a good thing.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Up to a point
If we somehow had an 'unlimited' source of oil, the global warming issues would be even worse then they already are.

But that is one of the reasons why I posted the question. I find the Thomas Gold stuff very interesting and just like any other theory about where oil comes from, it's still just a theory. However, I would think the discovery of oil on another planet without any other evidence of life, would prove Gold right.

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Global warming would be a problem still but
If there is more oil then we could produce more oil and it would be cheaper. There are various ways to "sink" carbon and if we could do that, then that would be a good thing.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:15 PM
Original message
do a google search for "abiotic oil" to see who's talking about it
:crazy:
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. Petroleum is a fossil, and methane a VERY simple compound.
Despite the abiotic theory referred to above, it is virtually certain that all the petroleum and natural gas in the earth's crust is of fossil origin (in fact, it would be a thrilling discovery if any prebiotic hydrocarbon deposits were ever found -- it would be unsurpassed evidence of Earth's primordial condition).

Petroleum (like coal) consists of a mixture of very many different compounds of hydrogen and carbon, with some sulfur, nitrogen, and oxygen compounds thrown in. Some of these compounds have very complex structures, but others are very simple -- like methane, CH4, which is the simplest possible (stable) compound of hydrogen and carbon, and which forms as more complex organic molecules break down.

In contrast, the material on Titan is believed to consist largely of methane, together with lesser amounts of moderately complex molecules, the amount decreasing with increasing complexity. This is the pattern one would expect if the compounds were originally derived from methane. In fact, since Titan lacks an ozone layer, there is nothing to shield its atmosphere from ultraviolet radiation, which is known to cause a number of chemical reactions initiated by the UV-induced cleavage of chemical bonds. In the case of CH4, H atoms are cleaved off, and recombine (more or less) at random, with molecular hydrogen (H2) being one of the likely products. Because H2 is so light, it can escape from Titan's gravity, leaving the heavier carbon-containing products behind. For example,

CH4 --> CH3 + H
2H --> H2 (escapes)
2CH3 --> C2H6
so the higher boiling, less volatile gas, ethane, is left behind. As the concentration of ethane increases, it is subjected to the same process, forming C3H8, C4H10, etc. Also, some products of other H-atom induced reactions will form, such as C3H6, C4H8, etc. The longer the UV (sunlight) works on the atmosphere, the more these intermediates build up, and the more complex they become, forming liquids and solids as well as gases. Leave Titan out in the Sun long enough, and most of its hydrogen will be lost, leaving the carbon-rich material behind. If Titan were closer to the Sun, the increased heat would help the lighter gases escape faster (hot gas molecules move faster) and so a hydrogen-depleted Titan would form sooner.

What would that look like? Probably Mars. Mars is closer to the Sun, and has too little gravity to hold onto the lighter gases. All the light gases -- H2, NH3 (ammonia), CH4, and H2O have either boiled off, or been photolyzed by UV. In the case of H2O, we know that even in Earth's outer atmosphere, UV splits of H atoms, which slowly diffuse away, leaving the oxygen behind (abiotic formation of O2!). On Mars, the gravity is too weak to hang onto even O2 long-term, so almost the only gas remaining is CO2, which is heavier than the other common gases.

Large planets -- the "gas giants" Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune -- have atmospheres very rich in hydrogen, so much so that the other common elements are found predominately as binary compound with hydrogen. Thus the nitrogen on Jovians is in the form of NH3, the carbon in the form of CH4, and the oxygen in the form of H2O. To form more complex molecules, some of those hydrogen atoms have to be kicked out. On Jovians this process takes place to a small extent (leading to all those different colors in the atmosphere) but there is so much H2 present that the reverse process occurs at a competitive rate. On lighter bodies, the H2 can escape, leaving C,N,O, etc. to combine with each other. On Venus and Mars, that's left lots of CO2 (Venus is hot, Mars is small, so only the heaviest gas remains); on Earth, N2 and O2, and H2O (just big enough and cool enough for water), and on Titan, so far from the Sun, the loss of H2 will presumably take biiiiillions and biiiiillions of years more.

BTW, Carl Sagan and colleagues did some experiments in which they irradiated the mixture of gases postulated to be present on Titan with UV light for extended periods, and formed a dark reddish, tarry mixture which he named 'Titan tholin' (from the Greek work for mud).

More than you wanted to know, but what you wanted to know is a subset thereof.
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