DEBATE: Should Stan Tookie Williams receive clemency?

[nofurylike]

An excerpt from a letter written by Tom Hayden to Gov. Schwarzenegger...

Re Stanley Tookie Williams case

Dear Governor,

As the execution date is drawing near, once again I suggest that you convene a discussion between the contending parties to help you reach a decision. As your legal affairs secretary has written, "clemency decisions are never easy," and "only after serious consideration and careful deliberation of this matter will the Governor make his decision."

Participants in a deliberative process must approach the issues in a non-dogmatic way. For example, if one party favors the total abolition of the death penalty, they must be able to defend clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams on additional grounds, i.e., that he has experienced a rehabilitation consistent with your stated philosophy as Governor and with accepted standards described in public policy. I believe that opponents of the Dec. 13th execution have put aside their philosophical feelings about the death penalty and set forth a rational and persuasive case that Stanley Tookie Williams deserves clemency for his thirteen years as an effective peacemaker.

In contrast, the prosecution has never shown a similar responsibility in their approach. The Times' coverage describes their approach as "unusually fierce." Their statements and briefs make no mention of Stanley Tookie Williams' thirteen years as a rehabilitated prisoner. If anything, they wish to deny this chapter of the Tookie Williams' story, regarding it as all a fabrication. In their view, he cannot be "rehabilitated" unless he acknowledges guilt for crimes he denies committing, and if he "de-briefs" on other inmates who may be gang members. Even then, in the prosecution view, he should die on Dec. 13th .

The prosecution declares in its recent filing that Stanley Tookie Williams has "left his mark forever on our society by co-founding one of the most vicious, brutal gangs in existence, the Crips." Forever : this is the language of prosecutors who no longer represent "the People" but have turned into fundamentalist mullahs in pursuit of a symbolic victory over an enemy that their thirty-year "war on gangs" has failed to defeat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-hayden/the-fundamentalists-who-w_b_11040.html

Mr Stanley Williams was convicted entirely based upon circumstantial evidence, much later retracted.

For more information on Stan and this case:

12/1 *** URGENT*** 12 Days to STOP the EXECUTION!! PLEASE ACT!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5493020

Thank you!

[liberalitch]

1. Simple answer to your question....

NO.
His usefulness as a gang deterent is limited.
He won't express the remorse that would heal the families of his victims NOR will he turn state's evidence to save more lives.... Yea, that's right..... I think he should snitch!

[nofurylike]

20. thank you replying. i'm wondering, have you looked through the

information in the linked thread?

it's very interesting.


peace!

[jaysunb]

27. you beat me to it...

the poster seems to have a pre-ordained mind set.....

[nofurylike]

44. "a pre-ordained mind set....." yes, jaysunb. and so many do! i do not

understand people not even looking to find out the facts that have been gathered and posted through the hard work of many here!

this is about Justice!

and it's about unequal Justice, an absolutely intolerable condition for this supposed Democracy!!!!

sigh...

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[Toots]

2. Another simple answer to your question is yes

There should be no death penalty ever under any circumstance. We are the only westernized nation to endorse such a policy and yet have the highest rate of capital crime than any other western nation. The death penalty clearly does not act as a deterrence but only as vengeance. It is wrong and the USA is wrong for allowing it..

[PDJane]

3. I'm with the yes group........

State sponsored executions are barbaric...

[Ex Lion Tamer]

8. Add me to that same list.

[nofurylike]

43. great! thank you, Ex Lion Tamer! will you please write that to the gov and

sign the petitions?

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[nofurylike]

42. thank you, PDJane! will you please write something like that to the

governor?

or call him?

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[Hippo_Tron]

38. You know what's funny about how right wingers look at your argument

They think that the reason that the rest of the west doesn't have the death penalty is that we are 100 years ahead of all of them. The irony...

[nofurylike]

80. pathological, eh, Hippo_Tron? any ego-stroking way to see anything.

thank you!

please call and write the governor?


peace and solidarity!

[nofurylike]

39. well said, and strongly, Toots! thank you! will you please write something

to the governor?


peace and solidarity!

[Solomon]

59. No one should be put to death by the state under non-emergency

circumstances. Killing someone after deliberating at trial is definitely non-emergency.

[nofurylike]

86. "under non-emergency circumstances"? i do not understand. but i do

hope you'll write and call the governor to say you oppose execution.

thank you!


peace!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Yes..and for all the others facing the barbarism of homicide by the state.

[nofurylike]

41. "... facing the barbarism of homicide by the state." yes yes YES!!

it is barbaric! homicide by the state!

tears me apart...

thank you, Tierra_y_Libertad!


peace and solidarity!

[converted_democrat]

5. I don't understand the purpose of having the word forgiveness in

English language, if we don't ever plan on using it.

edit-to make clearer

[Fescue4u]

55. We also have the word Genocide in the English Language

But we don't want it to happen.

Tookie has not yet taken responsibility for his crimes.

Redemption starts with responsibility.

[nofurylike]

89. true, it's a big problem! thank you, converted_democrat! will you please

write that to the governor?

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[MiniMe]

6. "Clemency" suggests that he will go free. I think they should commute

his sentence to a life sentence with no chance for parole.

[Sapphire Blue]

13. Clemency in this case is life w/o parole.

[Freddie Stubbs]

125. If he is innocent, why would he receive life without parole?

:shrug:

[Sapphire Blue]

129. He is up for clemency (life w/o parole), NOT pardon.

The appeal for clemency is not based on his guilt or innocence.

[nofurylike]

95. exactly. his lawyers are asking for life without parole. will you please

write and call the governor saying that is what you think should happen?

thank you, MiniMe!


peace!

[goclark]

7. Kick and call~ I'm with the YES group! nt

[nofurylike]

101. great! thank you so much, goclark! eom

[Beaverhausen]

9. Absolutely YES

[nofurylike]

106. thank you for the strength and clarity of your reply, Beaverhausen! eom

[monobrau]

10. No

All you tookie supporters should peer down the barrel of a shotgun and picture your brains flying out the back of your head. Better yet, picture your child or other loved one splattered by this murdering pig.
I'm not impressed by crocodile tears flowing from death row.

[Sapphire Blue]

17. Please read this beautifully eloquent post by H2O Man...

"The future depends on what we do today." -Gandhi: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5490397#5492091

[hiaasenrocks]

71. Do you have any

"beautifully eloquent" pieces on the victims of Tookie Williams?

Why is there NO mention of them in any of your posts?

[H2O Man]

74. I have had

a couple family members murdered; one viciously assaulted by a racist hate gang; and several family members murdered. While none were killed by Tookie Williams, I suspect that most people would think I have qualifications for speaking on this issue. (I realize that your question was not directed at me per say, though it includes a rather hostile jab at another DUer's description of something I wrote about the case at hand.)

[hiaasenrocks]

75. "Hostile jab"

I guess without taking too much exception to it, that's a fair characterization of my view of your post.

The notion that not granting clemency to this four-time murderer and founder of the Crips means we are heading in the "Hitler/Nazi direction" is unequivocally absurd.

By the way, I am sorry to hear of your family history. I do have compassion for you and the victims. And I think we are all well within our rights and qualifications to speak out on this issue, whether we've been victims of brutal crimes or not.

I wish we would remember all of these victims.

[H2O Man]

82. Again

I recognize that your opinion means every bit as much to you as mine does to me. We each see things as a result of our life experiences, and so what is clear and obvious to me, may seem "unequivocally absurb" to you .... as your opinion may seem in error to me. A discussion of those differences, especially where there is respect for one another -- if not for one another's opinions -- can be a good thing. Of course, neither of us will change the other's opinion. But I hope that at sometime in the future, that which seems "unequivocally absurb" to you today may make sense.

[hiaasenrocks]

85. Sorry.

Your position on this case, and the Hitler/Nazi gross overstatement will, thankfully, never make sense to me. All of this is just way over the top and flies in the face of reason, IMO.

And I wasn't saying "absurb" in my post. Not sure if you were trying to imply that I was misspelling it, but I didn't.

[H2O Man]

88. My error.

It's late, and I'm tired. I did not mean to imply that you erred in spelling. Nor am I attempting to imply that you have an error in thinking. We just see it differently.

The comparison of our prison system and concentration camps may seem a "gross overstatement" to you. And perhaps your life experiences will never result in your thinking otherwise. But for every wrongly convicted person incarcerated, and surely for every wrongly executed person, as well as for their families, it seems very different.

More, the idea of people who have rigid value systems in terms of guilt and the need to define many things as "unforgivable" fitting into specific, identifiable personality types, is valid regardless of if you accept it as being so or not.

[hiaasenrocks]

93. I will readily admit to having

"rigid value systems in terms of guilt," especially in cases such as this. I much prefer that position to one that places the comfort of the murderer above compassion and justice for the victims.

For the record, forgiveness doesn't include setting justice aside. But, hey, why would anyone need to forgive Tookie? He says he didn't do it. :puke:

[H2O Man]

96. That's fine.

I have absolutely no problem with people having a different value system than me. I do have a problem with violent criminals. I am in favor of justice, and I think that compassion for the victims of crimes (including for families of victims) is extremely important. I know that it is far too often overlooked by our society in general, although I do not share your belief that this is definitely true in this case.

[hiaasenrocks]

105. I think it's pretty obvious that

there is a lack of compassion for the people that Tookie Williams murdered. Just look around at all these threads started by his supporters. I can't recall anyone mentioning the victims, even if just to include a simple statement of compassion.

But, again, I ask you, why would anyone be expected to "forgive" a person who says he's innocent?

I used the contact information to send my view that the execution should go forward. Tookie doesn't deserve to be granted any leniency whatsoever.

[nofurylike]

112. to believe this is injustice is to believe it equally FOR the sake of

the victims.
how would an injustice help them in any way?!
would you condemn them to that, too?

you don't think that ending the cycle of violence is foremost in the minds and hearts of every one of us here?
why would you be a DUer and ever think that?

please, just let the tiniest bit of you wonder why such fine people would feel as strongly as we do.
it is not because we're stupid.
have you seen any of us ever conclude things without deeply examining them?

the difference is, you are not willing to look at the facts from outside your preformed judgment.
or you would know this can not be allowed to happen.


peace!

[hiaasenrocks]

115. Isn't this ironic?

You ask me (or make statements urging me) four different ways to consider that your view is honest and worthy of respect and acceptance.

Then you say, "you are not willing to look at the facts from outside your preformed judgment."

Brilliant.

No one here has posted anything that convinces me "Tookie" Williams deserves more than he's gotten already.

Justice will be served.

Please remember the victims.

[nofurylike]

111. to support an execution without learning the facts, is, EXACTLY, "heading

in the 'Hitler/Nazi direction'" !!

do you realize that kristallnacht was a crucial test of the germans, demonstrating how much how many would rise up against it? it established *the silent assent* that led to the next stage.

if we allow this - and if you examine the facts, honestly, you will not - then we silently assent to that very behavior: killing when the state tells us to kill. the state AS the conscience was their main thing!

what else is it when people support an execution because they take for granted that the state is right in sentencing that?

please, examine that facts.

please help us to stop this injustice.

thank you!


peace!

[hiaasenrocks]

116. I have read everything you have posted...

and I've read other sources, too. I have made up my mind, just as you have.

I hope many DUers will go outside this website for information, as everything you are posting is biased, one-sided and skewed toward a certain outcome.

I am not cheering this execution. I simply want justice served. And it will be.

Remember the victims.

[nofurylike]

107. kick for H20 Man's great gift to us all in this piece! eom

[liberalitch]

23. Although I consider myself a raging liberal.....

the death penalty is a deterent.....
My students say they know people who would kill people all day everyday if there was no death penalty..... them and their families fear these people and want the death penalty as they think it protects them and their families. They have to live the same places with these people so I would consider them the experts.

[Sapphire Blue]

24. They may be providing their assumptions of others.

Edited to add: Their assumptions are not supported by statistics.

Edited again to add: 'Fear' is one of the things that got much of this country to support the invasion of Iraq.

[nofurylike]

25. i asked if you'd read the material because i realize that you aren't

aware that Stan never received a fair trial, and that there was no physical evidence that he murdered. all circumstantial.

the arguments about deterence do not apply to the problems with the risk of executing innocent people. in the case of a racist judicial system, with rampant prosecutorial misconduct, and a dominant white population having an interest in that misconduct continuing (being institutionalized, made a part OF the judicial system!), we are talking about murders BY the government, that are kept out of our sight!

executions are happening too often for us to stay abreast of which ones are of railroaded people. and there are many!

please look into the details of Mr Williams' case, and re-evaluate your position on his request for clemency.

by rights, he should have been given a new and a fair trial.

thank you!


peace!

[hiaasenrocks]

28. You do realize that physical evidence

can be circumstantial evidence, right? Did you mean to say there was no "direct evidence"?

TV, popular fiction, and poorly written/researched news stories have given people the wrong idea about circumstantial evidence. Prisons are full of people who were convicted on circumstantial evidence. It's more common, and widely accepted, than Law & Order makes it seem.

EDIT: If he were given a fair trial (to your liking, I mean) and was convicted, what would you suggest at that point as a means of punishment?

[nofurylike]

114. both, actually. there was only later-retracted hearsay from questionable

(that is, stand to personal gain) 'witnesses,' not eye witnesses.

the facts of the injustice are fascinating, albeit intensely upsetting. please check out the facts on the evidence.

"if... means of punishment?"

i am an active death penalty abolitionist.

i do have some thoughts on justice and punishment, but that would be a treatise. not for now.

thank you!


peace!

[hiaasenrocks]

118. Please, when you have time...

I would love to read your thoughts on what Tookie's punishment should be.

Why would it take a treatise?

You oppose executing him. We know that. So if he's found guilty do you want him to serve life in prison, 20 years, no time? Shouldn't take pages and pages to explain that.

[nofurylike]

121. whole new systems of justice. i prefer much about finland's prison

system.

- well, despite that we're now hearing that one?? of the u.s. secret prisons might be there?? -

interesting:
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-94165.html

and the hawai'ian "place of refuge" system has some good features - if a criminal could reach one - like 'sanctuary' - they could not be arrested. they'd live there till they'd try to leave, at which time their behavior would have to be so excellent that they wouldn't draw attenton to themselves, so be arrested (executed) for anything again.

we need reform, badly.

that's a nutshell of a treatise.

thank you for asking. :)


back tomorrow


peace all!!

[Sapphire Blue]

30. More suggested reading: A beautifully eloquent post by H2O Man...

"The future depends on what we do today." -Gandhi: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5482561&mesg_id=5489563

[wixomblues]

45. I've read all the info,

but it only presents one side. I would like to see all of the evidence, not just the disputed evidence. Also, transcripts would be nice as well, if they are available.

Everyone in prison is innocent, depending on who you ask.

I don't mind people being anti-death penalty, I think it's a fairly pointless exercise, but it does bring resolution to the victims families. As I've said elsewhere, I don't want to push the button, but I'm not upset if others do.

However, in this case, I'm not sure if people are arguing if he is innocent, or just reformed. Help?

[nofurylike]

119. we are not arguing that he is innocent, though many believe he is. we

have to decide about letting the state kill him, and make a loud voice if we are against that.

that is our duty.

one point most agree on is that his trial was not fair.

where there is ANY doubt, we can not allow that state to kill a person.

as for the evidence, that which is questioned by Mr Williams' lawyers is agreed on as fact, regardeless the nasty names the prosecutor calls them for pointing that out. the shoes, blood, gun were not his.

the witnesses recanted on record.

the prosecutor 'cleansed' the jury of any but white jurors. in the state not faulting that, they allowed a dreadful precedent.

he spoke to that all-white jury using racist epithets...

have you asked families who later discovered that the wrong person, railroaded by racist means, was killed?

not resolution, but the opposite.

thank you so much for openly discussing, wixomblues!

btw, the more enormous and powerful the prison industrial complex - slavery! - the more factual "Everyone in prison is innocent" will be.


peace!

[hiaasenrocks]

120. Not true.

You keep stating that the jury was all white. There was one Latino, one Filipino, ten Caucasians. Maybe you mean to say there were no blacks. But then you'd have to show us how all of the jurors were racist and that's why they found him guilty.

So what else in your information is wrong?

I really hope DUers will do their own independent research outside of the propaganda being posted here.

Remember the victims.

[nofurylike]

123. yes, i did misstate that. thank you for calling it to my attention.

i even knew that.
i apologize.

i'm sorry i couldn't get back to you on this last night.


peace

[hiaasenrocks]

124. Actually, we were both wrong.

From the LA County District Attorney's brief that I posted earlier...

In his petition for clemency, Williams makes the allegation that the prosecutor
“removed the only blacks from Stanley Williams’ jury. (Petition for Executive Clemency,
Dated November 8, 2005, 10). This statement, apparently made to suggest there was a racial
element to the trial, is factually incorrect. In fact, the documented evidence demonstrates
conclusively that there was a black juror on the case, and that that juror not only voted for guilt, but also voted for death.

Attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the court minute order listing the names and
seat numbers of the respective jurors. (P. Exh. 16). Also attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the death certificate of Juror #12, William James McLurkin. (P. Exh. 17). In that death certificate, the race of Mr. McLurkin is clearly listed as “Black.” In addition, Juror #1, Larry Sabala, has provided a sworn affidavit which confirms that one of the jurors was black. According to Mr. Sabala, “one of the jurors who served with me was a black man. It was obvious to everyone that he was a black man.” (P. Exh. 18).

[wixomblues]

122. After deliberating,

I signed the petition. However, I only did so because I don't believe in the death penalty,(although it's not a pressing issue with me).

However, I've found a ton of pro tookie sites. None of these seem to have any transcripts of the trial, and they all repeat the same talking points.

I then found some anti-tookie sites. They had no transcripts or list of evidence presented, just the same talking points(his appeals were denied, he was found guilty).

Just to settle my own curiosity, is there any site, anywhere, that has a comprehensive record of the trial?

[nofurylike]

128. thank you, wixomblues! the most urgent matter is stopping the execution,

of course. for whatever reason we each feel that is necessary, that is the time pressure.

most here agree on that much.

once that is accomplished, there is time to examine the facts.

just under pressure on this...

breathe


it is urgent.

thank you for signing!


peace!

[Berserker]

61. The death penalty is a deterrent

Bullshit because if it were we would not have this to talk about.
One of my best friends his name is Bobby McLaughlin he is from Brooklyn New York. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to 15 years to life.
The evidence that convicted him was a 15 year old eyewitness that seen him do this murder in Marine Park in Brooklyn. After doing 7 years and 8 months in Sing Sing the kid came forward and said he was coheresed into saying it was Bobby and he could not tell who it was because it was dark.
He had a movie made about him called "Guilty until Proven Innocent" Martin Sheene played his father and Branden Fraser played Bobby. After I got to know Bobby I have changed my mind about the death penalty.
He was sleeping in his bed when the police came and took him away and the nightmare began for him. He is still suffering to this day. What I am trying to say is some people that are convicted are not guilty. If there is even a doubt they should not be sent to their death.

[nofurylike]

130. thank you so much for sharing that here, Berserker! my heart is in my

throat from that deeply sorrowful story.

i am so sorry you and your friend had to suffer that!

thank you for offering such a powerfully enlightening example of what we must keep sight of here.

"What I am trying to say is some people that are convicted are not guilty. If there is even a doubt they should not be sent to their death."

if there is even a doubt

yes.


peace and solidarity!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

113. It would make me feel better to not allow hate speech like Rush on the air

But that doesn't make it right.

Study after study has shown that it is NOT a deterrant. And believing in something when there is no support for it is reckless, and irresponsible.

[kysrsoze]

26. He did what he did. I don't support him, but I'm saying "Yes" because...

all of the people who are wrongly sentenced to death row based on trumped up charges, angry juries or mistakes made during the trial.

I don't think we should apply the death penalty ever because it is not a deterrent, it's more expensive to carry out than a life prison sentence and the inmate's death removes the chance for those potentially innocent to be exonerated while still alive.

[Thtwudbeme]

40. I have worked murder scenes as a paramedic

I have seen your melodramatic graphic descriptions up close.

I am totally opposed to the death penalty.

[jmm]

47. Our legal system should be based on raw emtional reactions

I've known a few people murdered in ways even more graffic than you described but that still doesn't change my feelings about the death penalty.

[the_real_38]

103. No - let me see if I've got this right -

Tookie Williams robbed a convenience store and shot the clerk with a shotgun. A dead guy who left kids in the world, btw (it's rumored that 'Took' bragged abouth the episode in Jail, recalling the man's gurgling sounds as he died).

Tookie Williams then broke into a hotel room with a couple of other guys and killed 3 family members.

Tookie Williams was assigned the death penalty and shipped off to a California Correctional institution, where he promptly started a gang, known to us all as the Crips, whose influence spread back out to the street, unleashing wave after wave of new violence against their enemies and some others who happened to be standing nearby at the times the shit went down.

Tookie Williams' is about to get juiced by the state of California. His defense is that he's sorry that he started the gang. His defense has no legal merit because his appeals have been slapped down (and in this case that's because he's guilty) in the courts (some of which are the most liberal in America (and thank the good lord for them)), so he's resorting to busting poses with celebrities, taking on the persona of cause celebre in order to avoid the big D.

Tookie Williams got to go. I usually don't believe in the pro-Death Penalty theories. I think it's used too often as vengeance and too seldom as genuine deterence. But I can actually see execution acting as a deterrent in Tookie's case. He's gained fame, put a little bling into his children's books, and it seems like there's no way The System could put someone like that. But in this case, the system could send a very coherent message: you're responsible for actions that have lethal consequences, no matter how many books you write. Those people aren't coming back, and neither is Tookie.

[SaveElmer]

108. Murder is never justified...especially when it's the government doing it..

Capital punishment is no more than revenge murder by the state...plain and simple.

It does nothing to deter crime

It does nothing to protect citizens from murderers

It does not bring back the victim.

It does debase us all ...

Tookie Williams does not deserve clemency because he has rehabilitated himself and is now doing good things...he deserves clemency because murder is murder no matter who is doing it!!!

[goclark]

132. I can get the picture and NO death Penalty could

bring my love one back.


I would prefer to see the person responsible sit in jail for the rest of his/her life.

It is barbaric!

[prescole]

11. No way. Same for Mumia. Having Hollywood celebs on your side

won't bring back the people you killed, or the many more your gang has killed.

[Sapphire Blue]

15. You're right... nothing will ever bring back those who have been killed.

Not even the execution of their convicted murderers. On the other hand, execution would provide the satisfaction of vengeance for those who feel that they need it... but it doesn't bring anyone back.

In Stan Tookie Williams' case, he is now helping to change the futures of thousands of children for the better. With his anti-gang work for more than a decade, done during most of his incarceration, he is helping to prevent more of the violence that he was once a part of... thereby preventing future murders. He can't bring anyone back from the dead, but he can prevent and is preventing further deaths.

[Beaverhausen]

16. Neither will putting these men to death

Is that what you think? If these men are executed those they killed will be brought to life? Or anyone killed by gang members?

Or is it that you just think revenge killing is OK?

Have you educated yourself on the facts of Williams' case?

[prescole]

18. I don't believe in the death penalty--I'd give him life without parole

I don't consider that "clemency," however, which implies a significant lessening of the severity of punishment. He deserves punishment, his victims deserve justice, and his victims' families deserve revenge.

To answer your questions, no, I don't think executing Williams will bring anybody back, and yes, I know the details of his case. He started a violent street gang that has terrorized entire neighborhoods and killed uncounted people. I consider him on a level with Bush and Cheney--stone cold killers.

[Sapphire Blue]

19. His clemency would be life w/o parole.

[Bombtrack]

117. Or the thousands of lives destroyed or damaged from the organization

you founded.

[Javaman]

12. As long as the "state" kills people as punishment we will never

advance as a civilization.

[nofurylike]

29. absolutely. well said, Javaman. thank you! eom

[Fescue4u]

56. Id say that we have advanced quite well in 200 years as a nation

[Javaman]

92. Perhaps as a nation but not as a civilization...n/t

[hiaasenrocks]

69. And will we advance as a civilization

by relaxing the justice system for so-called reformed prisoners?

I'd say that by serving justice on "Tookie" we'll advance a little more.

[Javaman]

91. There will never ever be a good reason, to me, to kill another human being

There are true monsters out there. Some man made, some society man and others born that way, however, I reiterate, there will never been a totally justifiable reason to kill another human being as punishment.

Time and time again, through out history and in modern day DNA testing, it has been proven that innocent men and women were put to death of a crime they did not commit.

This man has committed horrible crimes and has show a level of rehabilitation, however, because of his crimes, life in prison, lose of freedom fits his crime.

A death sentence, as in an eye for an eye, leaves a entire society blind in the end.

[hiaasenrocks]

98. One thing is for sure...

If Tookie Williams believed "There will never ever be a good reason, to me, to kill another human being" then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Justice will be served on December 13 and we'll be better off for it.

[Javaman]

126. one mans ignorance does not make a society. n/t

[hiaasenrocks]

127. I agree!

That's the problem I have with the Save Tookie movement.

[Javaman]

131. I meant, tookies ignorance does not absolve him from his crime...

and putting someone to death does not absolve us either.

More killing, more death. At some point as a civilization we have to draw a line to stop it. We are pissed off at the killing in Iraq, yet we continue to kill here. It's like the term in animal farm. Some animals are more equal than others?

Just because we end the death penalty does not mean an end to murders, however, having the death penalty has not ended murders either.

Two wrongs will never make a right. So why continue killing people?

I'm not religious, be even I believe in thou shalt not kill. And by definition, that means not to kill anyone.

[Balbus]

14. I'd have no problem with it. - eom

[nofurylike]

21. excellent interview of Mr Williams by Amy Goodman of

DemocracyNow:

very much worth the listen!

Amy Goodman's live interview Wednesday:

We look at the case of death row prisoner Stanley Tookie Williams. In just under two weeks, on December 13, the 51-year-old Williams is scheduled to be executed by the state of California. Williams is a convicted murderer and the co-founder of one of the country's most notorious street gangs, the Crips. But since his incarceration he has also become a Nobel Peace Prize nominated children's author and a vocal advocate against gang violence.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/30/153...


peace!

[goclark]

32. Thanks for the article! Keep those phones busy folks ! nt

[Bandit]

22. Yes he should not receive Death

Death Penalty is barbaric and suited for the Republican Party only...

[nofurylike]

31. if you support clemency, please sign the petitions! and call, fax and

email Governor Schwarzenegger!!:

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]


one petition now has 60,728 signatures. the other (more recent) has 8,403

please sign here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

and/or here:
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240

thank you!


peace!

[Sapphire Blue]

34. NOTE: Clemency is life w/o parole; not release from prison.

(This is meant for those who don't want to see him go free)

[sendero]

33. I'm for the death penalty...

... only when there is essentially NO doubt as to the guilt of the defendant. For example, multiple eyewitnesses who DO NOT GET PLEA FAVORS FOR TESTIMONY, physical evidence, etc.

This case doesn't look to me like it even comes close to that standard.

Life in prison.

[NYC Liberal]

35. I am 100% against state killing. NOBODY should be executed by the state.

Life in prison would be a much harsher punishment anyway.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

109. I agree with you 100% on this. eom

[Yollam]

36. I could never advocate for this man as an individual.

I think he should be locked up for life, regardless of his good deeds, which I believe are sincere.

I disagree with the death penalty on principal, but will never rally around murderers like Mumia or Williams. In the long run, I think doing so does more harm to the cause of ending capital punishment than it does good.


I e-mailed Gröpenführer that I believe the death penalty is cruel & unusual punishment, and cannot be applied fairly, or with complete certainty that all prisoners are guilty, and it should thus be ended.

But I have no love for 'Tookie'. I hope he rots in jail forever.

[Sapphire Blue]

37. His clemency will keep him in prison... life w/o parole.

Thank you for your email to the 'Gröpenführer'!!!

[nofurylike]

46. kick

[nofurylike]

48. kick

[nofurylike]

49. kick

[AussieDave]

50. I don't know Debra Saunders' politics or motives, but she wrote this

in the SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/01/EDG5TG04SF1.DTL

So many claims and counter-claims - if there's a shred of doubt, then no execution - I mean, how final could you get ??

[MrSlayer]

51. No. We're talking a mass murderer here.

Tookie has killed more people than just the ones he's been convicted of. He has personally killed many more, is directly responsible for sending others out to murder for him and because of the gang he formed is indirectly responsible for hundreds, maybe thousands more. He is a mass murderer beyond the levels of Henry Lee Lucas and John Wayne Gacy. He shouldn't get clemency nor should anyone here have any sympathy for him. Anyone with a body count as high as his should certainly face the hangman.

I suggest that people read "Monster" by "Monster" Kody Scott to get some real insight into how Tookie's Crips operated back then. The amount of murders and barbarous acts they were able to get away with is staggering. We're talking mass rape, dismemberment, kidnapping and more.


Tookie is not a good guy and isn't worthy of this outpouring of support.

[Sapphire Blue]

52. You sound just like Crittendon.

Bye, MrSlayer

[MrSlayer]

53. Hey, it's you again.

I don't know if you noticed but I stayed out of your last few Tookie threads out of courtesy. But I'm not going to stay out of all of them because people need to know that Tookie is not some misunderstood, ill-used victim of the courts. He's a cold-blooded mass murderer who wouldn't hesitate to "put your head out" if you got in his way and who wouldn't give a damn if you were the innocent victim of one of his drive-by setups.

[Fescue4u]

58. Only people who are against Cap. Punishment are welcome to debate

If you have a different opinion, you get put on ignore.

cute eh?

[MrSlayer]

60. Yes, apparently the whole truth must not be known.

Because it throws off the whole "Tookie is being treated unfairly" crap. I swear some people here would have defended Hitler.

"Sure he killed 6 million people but look all the good he's done in prison. He's renounced Nazism and wrote a children's book about tolerance."

It's crazy.

[Endangered Specie]

64. Well, y'all definetly WONT get added to my ignore list.

Won't be long and we'll be blaming the victims for being in his way. After all, he was poor and economically challenged, he NEEDED to rob the place, the folks in the way were greedy capitalists.......


:sarcasm:

Dang, Im making myself sick reading that

:puke:

[hiaasenrocks]

65. She is incapable of debating the case.

I don't know what her motive is, but she's obviously not coming from any rational position here.

And in all of her posts that I've seen, she has not uttered a word about the victims or their families unless she's ridiculing them for "wanting revenge."

I'm glad she ignored me last week. This isn't "debate" at all.

[H2O Man]

72. As a person who has

taken part in the discussions on this topic, I am not ignoring you. I'm not debating you, either. You have an opinion that you are as entitled to as I am mine. I can understand how people could feel very differently than I do on this topic. I would hope that you would have a similar degree of respect for people having an opinion different than yours. The fact that you are hoping to talk about different points of view indicates that you probably do.

[Fescue4u]

87. fair enough

You've stated your opinions without being patronizing or making snide comments like "I wish mercy on your soul etc".

I can respect that.

[H2O Man]

90. Fair enough.

There is room for a wide variety of opinions, even on an emotional topic, such as this one. I think that it is possible, even likely, that on some issues that there is no single "right" answer. Perhaps the only "wrong" answer is being patronizing or snide, and not respecting the fact that people are entitled to their own point of view. My normal brother is in favor of capital punishment, as is one of my best friends. Life is that way.

[Fescue4u]

54. He has never accepted his guilt

He still professes to be innocent.

Redemption starts with admission.

(unless of course you buy the lie that a leader of a gang of killers never committed murder himself.)

[Fescue4u]

57. Is the this the debate where if you disagree

You get put on ignore?

Yup..I see that it is.


some debate

[hiaasenrocks]

67. Agree with the party line...

or be ignored.

So much for open-minded, eh?

[Endangered Specie]

79. I thought the Democrats were generally pro DP anyways

:shrug:

[hiaasenrocks]

81. Most of us are, I think.

What we're seeing around us is not indicative of any substantial portion of the party.

[Endangered Specie]

83. Yeah, the DU population tends to be further left than the Democrats

aamof, many look down on and are not part of the party. (lots of Greens, progressive independents, few socialists and further too).

[SemiCharmedQuark]

110. About 40% of Americans favor life imprisonment over the death penalty

So I believe you are quite mistaken.

Further, as more and more countries abolish the death penalty, we will eventually find ourselves standing alone. The death penalty will be abolished, it is just a question of when.

[Swamp Rat]

62. Clemency - Yes

1. I am against the death penalty.
2. He will become a martyr.
3. I believe his death may lead to the death of other people.
4. Who would Jesus execute?

[Endangered Specie]

63. Absolutely not.

Bastards deserves whats coming to him.

No way in hell Im going to stand for a notorious gang leadar and quadruple murderer.
:puke:


edit: thats 4 murders he was convicted of, no telling how many he hurt/murdered in his colorful gang career

[hiaasenrocks]

66. Agreed 100%.

I'm a little wishy-washy on the death penalty, I admit.

But this guy is a perfect candidate for the process.

Justice will be served.

[Endangered Specie]

68. Likewise, I prefer saving the DP for the 'creme de la creme'

I believe this one fits the bill too.

[hiaasenrocks]

70. This reminds me of the

people who wanted to go easy on Carl Faye Tucker because she found God. I was calling them fools at the time, and I call these people the same.

By the way, what part of NC are you from? If you don't mind me asking... I used to live in Raleigh.

[Endangered Specie]

73. check PM

:hi:

[dad]

76. Fry him!

Murderers get no mercy from NC!

[Endangered Specie]

77. Indeed, its about a 99.99% chance that Gov. Easley will let him get it.

the one in NC that is

Id say 70/30 against Arnie giving clemency

[hiaasenrocks]

78. That almost sounds like a cheer.

And I don't think we're cheering for this.

We just recognize that justice should (and will) be served in this case on December 13.

[Generic Other]

94. Lynching by State and Race 1882-1962

North Carolina 15 white/ 85 black/ 100 total

I would say murderers have been encouraged in North Carolina.
With the full encouragement and participation of the "good" citizens.

http://www.nathanielturner.com/lynchingbystateandrace.htm

[BreweryYardRat]

84. Mmm-hmm.

"Sins may be forgiven, crimes require punishment." Stick a needle in.

[FyurFly]

102. NO

He murdered 4 people and likely countless others. Lethal injection is too liberal of a death sentence for this guy IMHO.

[Ekirh]

97. I'm against the Death Penalty

In ALL cases. . . so I too would be against putting Tookie to death.

With that being said I'm not sure I can rally behind him considering what he has done in the past. I applaud him for his good works in prison but I can't say with confidence that it makes up for what he did in the past.

Due to my stance against the death penalty I hope he gets life in prison . . but that's as far as my support for him goes. I don't think he deserves to be singled out as a hero or a special case. . . as I don't think one death penalty candiate should be favored for live over others (I hope I'm making sense) but I do think he should get life and not death.

I think that's all I'm going to say.

[Sapphire Blue]

100. His clemency would be life w/o parole.

Since this agrees w/your stance against the DP, perhaps you might be willing to contact Schwarzenegger to let him know your position?

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Thanks for your consideration!

[Clara T]

99. Yes

But at present he resides in the swiftest growing Indian Reservation in the country, The US Penitentiary.

He resides in a cage.

Criminals are on the loose writing the laws.

Peace

Life

[nofurylike]

133. too awful too awful too true

yes
yes yes

yes yes

criminals ARE on the loose...


swiftest growing Indian Reservation
cage

:cry:



Peace to You, Clara T

wishing You Blessings from the Earth

Life


thank You deeply


i am having this thread locked, for the next to replace. i just had to reply to you.


all
i'm so sorry.... :cry:

[ForrestGump]

104. I knew some Bloods and Crips, for a short while, long ago

They were all utter and complete scum. They did not deserve to live. No remorse for their acions, including future ones yet unplanned...scum who should have been put down for everyone's good.

And, yes, I realize that it's possible to rise above even the most heinous of tracks though life, and rally even when it seems you are doomed, but if any of those swine ever survived and did anything positive in the world it'd have been not only a minor miracle but a long, long road to even begin to atone for the sheer evil that they embodied and committed.

But I'm ambivalent about the death penalty. Not uncaring, either way, but torn, and perhaps more ready to see its merits on a case-by-case basis rather than along predetermined moral lines of black and white dichotomy. I'd probably be okay with this f***er getting jail time for the rest of his life. If he really does stay there, I mean. And, at that point, there's not a whole lot of difference between death and life...well, there may be, but that depends on the inmate themselves, to a large degree. Part of me would want to see him treated roughly for the duration of his incarceration, but the rest of me trusts that, at some point, his own past catches up to him in full and that he is tormented by the one who torments better than anyone else: himself.

I won't be upset, I think, if he's granted clemency. Yet I doubt I'd lose much sleep over his execution, either, if that's the way it comes down. Ideally, the state wouldn't be in the vengeance business...especially states that dish it out liberally (small 'L') and increase the odds of wrongful death. Of course, ideally people wouldn't be committing atrocities that earn the death penalty in the first place.

But if his actions had directly or nearly so affected someone close to me I would quite possibly want to dispatch him myself.

[LeftCoast]

134. Locking

Per original poster request.