Calling adult females "girls"

[raccoon]

is one of my pet peeves. It's the equivalent of referring to black adult males as "boys."

Do people who speak languages other than English do this sort of thing?

Any Brits, Aussies, Canadians out there, do people do this in your country?

[Armstead]

1. Sheilas?

[catabryna]

28. Ah yes...

Sheila... the female version of Paddy. These two slang words were used a lot in the older generations of my Irish family.

[mr_hat]

32. I thought Sheila was the Aussie distaff of Bruce.

My ancestory is Irish and I've never heard it used there(?)

[catabryna]

59. Well, since Australia eventually...

became the penal colony for Ireland (actually, only parts of Australia); it makes sense that they would use the same word and with the passage of time, I could see how its usage might have changed. How it ended up being used to describe someone other than a woman is beyond me. Sheila is an old gaelic term that was typically used to describe a female principle.

edit: typo

[foreigncorrespondent]

265. Well we weren't the penal colony for Ireland...

...even though we had a lot of Irish convicts. We were actually the penal colony of the British.

On edit: typo!!!

[catabryna]

272. I do realize that...

and should have made that point. The Brit's penal colony before Australia was the good ole' US!

[Armstead]

234. "What? Name's not Bruce? That's going to take some explaining."

No Pooftas.

(With apologies to Monte Python)

[H2O Man]

175. Sheilas

are the Cheyennes, depending on if you are speaking a woodland/lakes language, or have moved out on the Great Plains. Or, if you are speaking English, you could just say "Blue Clouds." Be prepared to fight off all those who take great insult in being called Blue Clouds, though.

[Sapphocrat]

258. Oy!

Whatever you do, don't call my other half a sheila! I think the connotation is kinda common/slutty/skaggy, but don't quote me.

I'll see if I can find foreigncorrespondent and ask her to explain why I'm forbidden to use the word sheila. LOL

As for the OP: Fine by me, as long as it's another "girl" calling me a "girl." From a guy, it sounds condescending, unless he's using the phrase "boys and girls" for "men and women."

I use "boys and girls" all the time when addressing DU ("Yes, boys and girls, there are conservatives in California...") but it doesn't have anything to do with age or sex -- I'm just being my adorably ironic self.

The thing that drives me insane is the phrase "men and girls."

[foreigncorrespondent]

264. I don't like it...

...for me it is down grading to be called a sheila. If I want to be called that I will change my name.

It is old slang used by the more "common" folk (mostly men) of the day to call ALL women. Unfortunately it has stuck, with many of today's women being really offended by it. My mum on the other hand uses it all the time, and isn't offended by it.

[eridani]

267. Exactly!

Keep the parallelisms straight.

Husband and wife, or man and woman. NOT man and wife.

Ladies and gentlemen, or men and women. NOT Ladies' Room and Mens' Room.

[Captain Hilts]

278. THANK YOU! 'Ladies' associate with 'gentlemen'...

Advertisers' use of "Men's and Ladies' watches" drives me INSANE!

[Obamanaut]

287. It aggravates me when women's sports teams are referred to as

'lady'something or other, eg., 'Lady Gators are in the finals.' We don't hear of the exploits of any 'Gentleman Gators.'

[tuvor]

2. The women I know use the term as least as often as the men.

We also call groups of men "the boys" regularly.

[raccoon]

11. Using it in that sort of context is one thing,

saying "going out with the boys/the girls," "boys'/girls' night out", etc. I personally have no problem with that.

I'm talking about a different usage. For example,

"I know this girl who..." (This "girl" is WAY older than 18.)

"That girl in the office said..." (That "girl" is 50+).

In the first set of examples, most people would use "boys" or "girls"; in the second, most people wouldn't use "boy," they'd say "man."

[tuvor]

Actually, in my experience, men are referred to singly as a "guy".

Hardly ever as a man.

Hey, my name isn't "Guy"! :)

[catabryna]

26. And, to add to that...

most of the time, I hear us women referred to as "the gals" or "the ladies". I don't recall ever hearing a man refer to women using the term "girls". Maybe I'm lucky.

I almost universally use the term "guy" or "guys" instead of men. But, boys... that is reserved for males under 16 in my book.

[formernaderite]

197. the whole of society seems to be longing to stay

juvenile and more familiar. I've heard women of a certain age(60+)use girls to refer to each other. Seems even to have supplanted the older term "gals". My wife doesn't like much informal speech, so I have to watch it....she also gets pissed when people refer to her as "hun" or honey...women and men alike. I generally go with the "whatever floats your boat" philosophy....and me, I don't care.

[Loonman]

3. I prefer the asexual "you guys"

And I don't hold the door open for anybody.

[mattclearing]

10. Not holding the door is just rude. n/t

[RagingInMiami]

88. Holding the door open is chauvenistic.

It's implying that the woman is physically unable to open her own door.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Bake]

90. Chauvinistic my ass!

It's simply a respectful gesture. Manners. Try it some time.

Bake

[blogslut]

110. I agree

However, I do have a bit of fun when I try to hold the door open for a man. Now, most men under 50 accept my gesture and say thanks. But if I try it with a man over 50, well, I've had some literally tussle with me for the right to hold the door. Hardwired I guess.

[TahitiNut]

122. Well, I'm over 50 and I'd be grateful ...

... after I awoke from a dead faint. :evilgrin:

[blogslut]

126. LOL

I gotta say, it's kind o fun. I usually win when I say: "Let ME be the Gentleman this time."

[Captain Hilts]

154. In Russia, it's the opposite.

Older men will accept a subway seat from a young woman. They fought in the Great Patriotic War and they figure they've earned it. And they have!

It's a whole different thing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

223. Maybe a definition is in order

by "hold the door" I generally mean holding it in the open position long enough for the person behind you to restrain it instead of allowing it to swing shut in his/her face.

What it sounds like you are describing is something I usually reserve for my party (when entering a restaurant for instance) - hold the door in the open position so that people can pass by me.

In the latter case, I'd offer ("tussle" is too strong a word. Perhaps there's something about you that motivates 50+ guys to want to. :loveya: ) to take the place of the person holding the door too - and I'm not quite 50. :)

[...of J.Temperance]

121. I think RagingInMiami was just kidding there dbaker41

If you note, after RagingInMiami's comments he has a DOUBLE sarcasm icon :)

[ticapnews]

123. The previous post was sarcasm

but I experienced that when I was a college student. If I had the temerity to hold a door open for a woman I would receive a dirty look just as often as I would receive a thank you. There really are women out there who get offended if you do something as simple as hold a door open for them.

[...of J.Temperance]

128. As a woman, I DON'T understand those women who get offended, I mean

The women that get offended, WHATS their problem eh? What could POSSIBLY be offensive about a man holding the door open for you?

[Captain Hilts]

147. I don't get that either.

Now, when a man holds the door open and expects me to 1) Squeeze past him, or 2) Walk under his armpit, I hesitate.

Everyone should hold the door for everyone else.

[ticapnews]

148. As RiM said...

it implies that I, as a dominant male of the species, feel the need to hold open the door because she is incapable of doing it herself. It's a metaphor for later in life: Men have to take care of women because they aren't able to do it themselves.

It's completely absurd, IMO. I was raised primarily by my mother and grandmother - and have an incredibly liberal older sister - and would never consider NOT holding the door open for a woman, whether it is a car door or the entrance to a building. Sadly, rather than the polite young man my grandmother praised for my thoughtfulness, many women see a chauvinist pig for demeaning my feeble female counterparts.

Life's a real bitch.

[...of J.Temperance]

179. I'm glad that you're a polite young man :)

And well done for not listening to these silly women in society who for some BIZARRE reason feel offended by having the door held open.

As I pointed out before, I hold the door open for men and I've held the door open for other women. It's all down to being polite and well-mannered.

[eridani]

268. So, everybody hold doors open for everybody else

Depends on who gets there first.

[JuniperLea]

231. It's getting to the point where you can't do anything nice for anyone

without offending someone!


Quite frankly, all this being offended by crap around here is really beginning to offend me!

:p

[rman]

263. Can't even say "happy holidays"

without being accused of stealing Christmas.

[Dorian Gray]

127. I hold the door open for men and women alike,

as I would hope that they would do so for me, if they entered a building before me. It's respectful. Nothing to do with Chauvinism. :)

[Dulcinea]

184. Same here.

And when someone holds the door open for me, I thank them.

I hold the door for both men & women.

I also say "the girls," "the guys" & "you guys" when referring to friends.

Nothing disrespectful there. If someone has a big problem with any of that, they have some issues they need to work out, IMO!

[Orrex]

139. Courtesy is asexual.

If one were to hold the door because the next person is a woman, then the act could be called chauvinisitic.

But if one holds a door open as a simple gesture of courtesy, then the only chauvinism (or "power struggle," as some critics might frame it) is in the perception of the critic.

[Ladyhawk]

186. I hold the door open for men if they're close behind.

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

218. It's good manners, and so is thanking a person for doing it for you

When I walk through a door, if someone (male or female) is less than 3 or 4 steps behind me, I'll hold the door.

There is only one kind of person who will almost never say "thanks" - Women and girls aged 13 to 45.

It's become a running joke between my wife and I.

In my experience, even tatooed, pierced, dyed, leather-clad skater punks have a better track record.

[mrhopeforwes]

99. you just proved dave chappelle's point about chivalry being dead...

...and women killed it!

[mattclearing]

114. Yeah, and who said anything about holding it for women?

I hold it for everyone. Duh.

[NewJeffCT]

119. same with me

I always hold it open if the person behind me is reasonably close.

[TahitiNut]

124. Yep. I'm compulsive about checking behind me ...

... and extending that courtesy -- and notice that the majority of males are similarly habituated.

[TahitiNut]

120. If I had a nickel for every time a woman ever held the door for me ...

... I might be able to buy a cup of coffee. :eyes: :shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

145. Follow me, and the door will be held for you.

Can I have my nickel now?

[nonconformist]

235. Same here. Young, old, man, woman, whoever

I always hold doors open, and I'm a 32 yr old woman.

[Captain Hilts]

45. Women can be 'guys' in plural form.

Some southern women prefer 'gals' which I find grating.

You should hold the door open for everyone following you.

[Ron Green]

87. "You guys" is just awful.

It's an attempt at a second-person plural, and it barely works in a both-gender way (if the setting is very informal,) but is really lame when women use it with other women.

[johnaries]

111. Ah, but some women will assume that you are not talking to them but

to a couple of their appendages, especially if that's where your eyes happen to be looking at the time.
:evilgrin:

[Captain Hilts]

113. In the north, women use it as the plural all the time.

It sounds 'normal' to me.

'Gals' makes my skin crawl. But neither is more correct or appropriate than the other. It's purely preference.

[...of J.Temperance]

125. In the South, people use the term girls and honey and Darlin'

And thats how we do it...and nobody has ever thought it's inappropriate.

I've also used the term Darlin'...in fact I've responded to people on these here boards using the term Darlin'...so I have.

On Edit: Spelling error.

[Captain Hilts]

131. And blacks will call you 'baby'. It's kind of neat.

They're friendly.

But you still have to be careful in the workplace. Remember when that idiot in Mitch McConnell's office tried to have the cafeteria employee fired for calling him 'baby'? Stupid.

Feel free to call me 'Darlin' any time.

[...of J.Temperance]

141. I like the term baby, it's sweet

My Grandmother who's a white woman, she calls people "baby" though too...Grandma also calls Junior "that Motherfucker"...she'll often say "Get that Motherfucker off mah TV"...and "You know what that Motherfucker's doing now?" She's so rad and cute.

Sure, I'll call you Darlin' :)

[nonconformist]

237. As a native Michigander, I can confirm that.

In fact, I never even noticed I said the generic "you guys" until I moved to Kentucky and was ribbed for it a little bit.

[Chovexani]

162. I'm pretty sure this is a generational thing

I'm a woman and I do it all the time, and so do all the women I hang out with...we're all in our 20s, if that means anything. I've never really heard anyone over 40 use it.

[smirkymonkey]

190. But it's not nearly as bad as "Youse Guys"

[lumberjack_jeff]

226. I have a New Jersey friend...

Who had great sport at Washingtonian colloquial fondess for the term "you guys".

He got particularly amused at the second-person plural possessive i.e. "You guys's"

We eventually replaced it with the phrase "y'all's" for his benefit.

:)

[...of J.Temperance]

116. I LIKE having the door held open, and I ALSO hold the door open for men

I don't go in for all of this horsecrap about not having the door held open. So you see, there ARE women who like a man to hold the door open, because I'm one of them.

I ACTUALLY think that it's INCREDIBLY bad-mannered NOT to hold the door open for someone. I think it's very gentlemanly to have the door held open for me.

AND I might add, that when I hold the door open for men, 99% of those men have always smiled and said "Thanks"...oh and 1% of that 99% we ended up going out together...although he's now ex-boyfriend number 4...but he's still a good fellow.

[Captain Hilts]

133. You just keep openin' doors darlin'. I do the same.

It never hurts to do the polite thing.

[...of J.Temperance]

144. Yep, and you know, it costs nothing to be polite and courteous

That it doesn't Darlin'

[TahitiNut]

130. I prefer the asexual "fellows" ...

... which I believe is far less gender-oriented. Strangely, however, that's not how people are trained.

fel·low n.
1. a. A man or boy.
b. Informal. A boyfriend.
2. A comrade or associate.
3. a. A person of equal rank, position, or background; a peer.
b. One of a pair; a mate: found the lost shoe and its fellow.
4. A member of a learned society.
5. A graduate student appointed to a position granting financial aid and providing for further study.
6. Chiefly British.
a. An incorporated senior member of certain colleges and universities.
b. A member of the governing body of certain colleges and universities.
7. Obsolete. A person of a lower social class.

[Canuckistanian]

4. In social situations, among friends, it's perfectly OK.

And I don't mind being referred to as "one of the boys", even though I'm middle-aged.

But at work, among people you don't know that well or in formal situations, no.

[raccoon]

63. Well said.

"But at work, among people you don't know that well or in formal situations, no."

[Gormy Cuss]

5. Women who get giddy and encourage it annoy me even more.

It's most grating when it's a young male referring to women old enough to be his mother or grandmother. I suppose it is the easy way to assert his male dominance.

[hopeisaplace]

14. My pet-peeve from guys my age

"dear" :grr:

[SoCalDem]

215. I HATE it when grownups say. "Goin' to the Little Boys/Girls Room"

instead of bathroom :grr:

[Gato Moteado]

6. here in CR, they are chicas, ticas and guapas.....

....but rarely mujeres.

older women are usually referred to as senoras.

a lot of guapas here. ;)

[hopeisaplace]

7. I as a female will call a

group of women I may know, "lets go girls", or use the word in that way in gest/fun in conversation.

Call my boys, "men" too, ie: "lets go men, hurry up, we're late" etc..
My sister-in-law would call her "girls", "ladies" in the same way when they were little..it was sooo cute "come-on ladies lets go"

:)

[Captain Hilts]

137. Keep doing it! They're your 'girls'. nt

[Hobarticus]

8. A woman in my office calls out "good night, boys" every night n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. Relax

I call women "girls" all the time, as I call men "boys" all the time.

It's meaningless, really. It strikes me as a charming, albeit antedeluvian, holdover from the days when feminism took off, back in the sixties and seventies, and it suddenly became a bad thing to use such appellations. I like to think we've gotten more comfortable with such things by now.

When a female insists on being referred to as a "woman" when someone's used the term "girl" in her presence, that's a pretty good giveaway for me that she's got some rigid and insecure thinking that's not going to be fun for me to deal with, so I go around her. So far, it's worked out well for me.

Helen Reddy's song, "I Am Woman," was probably one of the most destructive influences in the whole movement, and I live my life hoping I'll never hear that inane piece of music again.

Girls, boys - we're all in this together.

[raccoon]

19. See my post #11.

"When a female insists on being referred to as a "woman" when someone's used the term "girl" in her presence, that's a pretty good giveaway for me that she's got some rigid and insecure thinking that's not going to be fun for me to deal with"

That's rather rigid thinking on your part, it seems.

Remember how in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD, the prosecuting attorney kept referring to Tom Robinson as "boy?" and in RL, people used to refer to adult black males as "boy."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. I saw your post

It would seem that you have your own set of rules, just as I do, for living life.

That's not what I'd call "rigid thinking," but, rather, how you are, given your experience in this world.

As an old girl lawyer who fought battles that youngsters today would not believe, I really don't take issue with little things. Life's far too interesting to get caught up in what I regard as meaningless nominal linguistic battles that don't ever resolve a thing.

Words - they have as much power as we choose to give them.

[enlightenment]

22. At work?

Do you expect your subordinates to refer to you as "sir?"

Perhaps you should ask some of your employees -- anonymously -- if they find being called boy or girl "charming."

I was raised to address others politely; generally sir or ma'am suffices for most situations. More casual appellations are appropriate with friends, of course. As a college instructor, I address my students with sir or ma'am -- collectively they become "class" or "folks." Most are younger than my child, but I would never presume to refer to them like children.

You may be a lawyer, sir, but your attitude is just plain rude. Calling it charming doesn't cut it for anyone but yourself.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

74. I most certainly do

In fact, I demand that they refer to me as "sir."

That is, of course, when I am not demanding that they address me as "Your Most Exalted And Worshipped Highness."

Or, in the alternative, I let them call me by my given name, since I own the firm and they work for me.

I may be a lawyer, honey, but I'm also a girl. And a woman. And a mother. And a grandmother.

You need to expand your thinking. Girls can be lawyers now, too.

[Bake]

93. Oooooooooh, SNAP!

Nice zinger there, O.L.L.! Funny how the poster just assumed your gender from your profession.

Bake, Esq.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

100. Given the context,

it was exceptionally wonderful.

SNAP! indeed...........

[Hello_Kitty]

207. You know what though?

Old Leftie Lawyer,

I've read many of your posts and, of course, am aware of your gender. However, I think it understandable that someone could assume you to be male not because of your profession, but because of the attitude conveyed in your argument. Pretty much anyone who hasn't lived under a rock for the past few decades realizes that there are many, many, women lawyers. That's hard to miss considering that 50% (I believe) of law school graduates are female at this point. But I can see a poster such as the one you admonished picturing a cigar-chomping, old school, Boss Hogg type of guy from your rather dismissive and patronizing defense of calling adults "girls" and "boys". Sorry, but that reminds me of every jerkoff male chauvinist I've had the misfortune of working for in my life.

That's not to say I don't agree with you to a certain extent. I don't get too bothered by someone calling me a girl in most cases. I also view it in the context in which it is said. The last time I got pissed off about it was at the gym two years ago when this obnoxious middle aged guy grabbed a piece of equipment I was using without even asking if he could work in with me. When I rebuked him for it he said "Listen, girl...." That's all I remember him saying due to the red hot rage that clouded my vision and the stream of profanities that came out of my mouth. Needless to say, that asshole still gives me a wide berth at the gym. Other than that, I don't really care because I concur with you that there are bigger feminist fish to fry and also because I want to get along with most people.

Also, I TOTALLY hate that Helen Reddy song too! It's like nails on a chalkboard. I think it and "She's Having My Baby" by Paul Anka are vying for the title of most putrid piece of musical excrement to appear on the pop music charts.

Those are just some thoughts I had.

Respectfully, ccbombs

[OldLeftieLawyer]

214. You know what?

I think you're right.

The truth is that I've always been 'way out there in terms of not giving a fig for convention, and that's made life interesting, sometimes difficult, always rewarding. I think the best line I heard was at my 25th high school reunion when a boy (ahem!) who'd been my best boy buddy through 12 years of school told me that he'd always thought that I was 20 years ahead of everyone else.

I do think people react a lot to the tone, yes, and that's kind of too bad. Let's hope that I won't seem such a guy broad in years to come, when the younger generation can find their own voices.

Yeah, you do go white- or red-hot blind with anger in the kind of situation you described. I will tell you a story now, about something like that:

I was a slightly experienced young lawyer, newly hired by a fat old white boys' law firm on K Street, NW in Washington as assistant general counsel for a large corporation. I used only my first two initials and my married surname on my letterhead and business cards. Deliberately.

There was a meeting called of all the people in the industry in town who had the same job as I did, only with other corporations. So, off we went, me and my trusty second chair, who was a young man from Yale law school.

When we got to the meeting, not everyone was there. We entered, me and my young male colleague, and a man already seated at the long conference table said to me, without really looking at me, "Darling, I'd like some coffee. Anyone else want coffee?"

Now, since I was new, no one knew me.

So, I took the coffee orders, while my colleague stood still like he had been stuffed.

I went to the galley, poured a few Styrofoam cups of coffee, poured in lots of salt - lots - and a bit of milk for those who ordered "regular."

By the time I got back with my tray, every man in that room knew who I was and what had happened. When the first man tried to apologize, I shushed him, shrugged it off, and watched as they all drank their coffee.

We got along really well after that, and everyone always got his own coffee. And mine.

We're on a good track, are we not, ccbombs? Thanks for that dead-on assessment. (It was still fun puncturing that "sir" balloon, though .....)

[Hello_Kitty]

228. Thanks OLL

I know we've had our differences on other forums but I've always enjoyed reading your posts. You're one of the wittiest and most acerbic members of DU. I like your style, Lady! :hi: :yourock:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

229. Back atcha, cc

We got bigger fish to fry than piddling differences of style, I agree.

[enlightenment]

266. Well, sugar, despite the fact that you've drawn at least one

quick conclusion about me based on not enough fact, I will give you this: you caught me, fair and square! I responded, in knee-jerk fashion, to the tone of your post.
Kudos for the catch -- I've been around this board for quite a long time now, and the low post count is the result of thinking about whether or not I want to respond (9 times our of 10 the answer is "no"). I bow to your ability to elicit a response.

:applause:

[marions ghost]

106. there's a problem with 'ma'am'

I've noticed that it's often used to be sarcastic or to be overly obsequious and condescending to women. (At the very least, if someone calls you ma'am you KNOW they're trying to sell you something). 'Ma'am is not in common usage anymore and does not function as the equivalent of 'sir.' So consequently I don't use 'sir' in business situations, I just use their name instead. These terms are fading.

I don't have a problem with casually referring to women as girls or men as boys, as long as it's not used when someone knows they should be saying 'woman' or 'man.'

[pitohui]

169. many young women now take "ma'am" as hurtful

i was shocked when i encountered some young women who thought the waiter was disrespecting them by calling them "ma'am"

i explained this is the south and it is considered polite, after all, the man did not know their names, so he could not address them by name, the choice was to say "ma'am" or not address them at all

i suppose he could have said "miss" but that's more appropriate for a 12 yr old, not an adult woman ordering a martini!

some days you just want to put your head in the sand and not say anything to anybody because some people just live to get their feelings hurt

[marions ghost]

191. you illustrate the problems

with the term 'ma'am' as it is used today. It is not a neutral term. There are negative connotations. It is too often used as a put-down, or sarcastically if a woman's behavior is considered too bossy. Younger women do not prefer the term.

It is a problem in social situations where someone needs to be respectful but does not know the person's name. I guess waiters have to use their best judgment. They are assuming a temporary social role, not to be taken too seriously. Often they say 'sir' but 'blank' to the woman--again reflecting a societal problem with the term 'ma'am.'

[pitohui]

284. younger women feel it's a crack abt their age

you hear them talk abt the first time they were called "ma'am" and how it made them feel old

for my part i don't think it's offensive to notice that you're not 14 any more, and i think "miss" is creepy for an adult woman

so what is the poor waiter to do?

he's gonna offend somebody, i guess!

frankly, as long as the intent is to be respectful, i don't care what they call me, it is not my job to make their job harder

but it still leaves me not knowing what to call someone whose name i don't know

"hey you?"

[Captain Hilts]

196. 'Madam' and 'miss' inherently refer to marital status, not age.

That's the problem. I wouldn't be offended by being called 'madam' but it's not really accurate.

Addressing women without reference to marital status is a real hassle, isn't it?

[AspenRose]

210. Around here I had been referred to as "senora" instead of "senorita"

even though at the time I wasn't married.

So it seemed to be more based on my age/maturity than my actual marital status. Either that or the cultural expectation is that you should be married by a certain age (I was 31 when I married). Perhaps calling a 29 year old woman "senorita" was considered inappropriate :shrug: but I wasn't put off by it because it was obvious the speakers were trying to convey respect, which is what it's all about, IMHO.

[One_Life_To_Give]

244. Military uses ma'am I beleive.

Never heard someone return a salute and say good morning Miss, Girl, etc.

[nemo137]

202. I use it when being polite to an older woman or one in a position

authority. Professors, deans, bosses, etc, until they tell me to call them something different. I was raised to use it as an exact analogue to "sir." Teachers are "sir" "ma'am" or Mr/Ms/Mrs/Dr. It's sad that some folks who weren't raised right ruin it for those of us who were.

FWIW, I'm 19, and from a midwestern blue state. Being polite should trascend age and geography.

[marions ghost]

203. I agree with being polite

but you have to realize that the term 'ma'am' has been denigrated in many people's eyes to the point that it is not analogous to 'sir' in actual usage. Too much negative baggage.

Good luck in your efforts to reclaim 'ma'am' as a neutral term. It will be an uphill battle.

[Captain Hilts]

243. That's a good strategy. I'm from the military community and I do the...

same thing.

When in doubt, be formal.

[tammywammy]

269. My parents taught me to always say ma'am and sir

If my dad calls me from another room, I'll still say "yes sir."

To me, it's being polite and respectful.

[enlightenment]

232. I'm a military brat -- the language works for me. nt.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Same Here About "Boys"

I leave meetings that i've run by saying (if all attendees are boys, or i'm leaving with any women and only guys are behind) "Thank you boys!"

At the golf course, when i see a group that i regularly bump into, i will say "Hi boys!"

However, i don't use the term "girls" when referring to women. I let my wife do that! However, i have, when talking to her, referred to some young actress as a "girl", even though they're over 18. But, they're still under half our age. So, not sure if that's kosher or not but it doesn't bother my wife, and i'm only saying it to her.
The Professor

[OldLeftieLawyer]

75. It doesn't bother my husband, either,

when I refer to him as . . . oh, that's not relevant here, really.

Nominal linguistics. You don't like the word - don't use it. You like it? Use it.

People take issue with your use of the word?

You learn more about them than they ever planned to let you know.

[ProfessorGAC]

79. Good Point

I use the word "boys" all the time and have never gotten a negative reaction. I didn't mention before that i refer to my band, all the time, as "my boys". So, i do it a lot, i guess.

I am a little more shy about the use of "girls" though toward women (except when i'm talking to my wife, and i guess you, since it wouldn't offend you two). No reason to cause hard feelings.
The Professor

[...of J.Temperance]

149. Ah think you and ah...are refering to the SAME thing here re. "the boys"

Ahem. I used to refer to part of my ex-boyfriends "lower regions" as "the boys".

Oh heck, so I did :)

Okay, I know, I need one of these...here it is...get ready...



:spank:

[Captain Hilts]

153. I learned that one just recently in a novel I read.

I knew 'girlfriends' were breasts, so it makes sense.

Hell, it's fair!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

164. See? SEE HOW IT WORKS?

This is serious stuff, dammit.

"Girlfriends" are breasts?

Since when?

I am SO old, I've missed all the new stuff. Last one I remember - wait, it's coming back to me, wait, wait, I've got it now - was "bodacious ta-tas."

Or is that just Southern?

[Captain Hilts]

177. I learned that one on Queer Eye and have since noticed it ...

being used by others.

It just went right over my head before Queer Eye.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

183. Really?

It's so OLD, and you must be SO YOUNG.

:::: sigh ::::

I heard one on "House" a while back:

"funmelons."

[...of J.Temperance]

167. Yes, his were "the boys" and mine were "the girls"...we used to

Phone each other up at work, and he'd say "How are the girls doing today?" and I'd say "Oh they're fine...how are the boys doing today?" and he'd say "Oh they're fine"

It was funny!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

160. Who doesn't?

But, since you asked for it, here ya go (OldLeftie's version of spanking):

[...of J.Temperance]

173. Heck

Ouch! That's what you call a HEAVY DUTY spanking!

:bounce:

[Swamp Rat]

30. I do it all the time, despite the flack I got on ONE occasion.

Where I'm from (New Orleans) it is considered endearing, as well as "dawlin'," "honey," "cher," etc. The flack came from someone who was a recent transplant from New England. She tried to admonish me but I just laughed and said "OK." She later apologised, in a round about way, after she got to know me a little better. :)

There's nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned. There are MANY more important things like protecting a woman's right to choose, equal pay, gender bias at school and work, etc.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

76. Well, well, well,

a boy/girl/you know who gets it.

Here in Mr. Jefferson's Commonwealth, not only do I take great pride in being one of the first girl members of the Bar, but I do love having been called "ma'am" by youngsters since I was 30.

There is a charm there that really does me in. But, I also have girlfriends (eeek!) who have railed for 30 years about that appellation, "ma'am."

So, it's all a matter of personal preference, self-image, and how comfortable you are with the stuff that doesn't really matter.

There's much bigger stuff out there to deal with, and I do fear for the coming generations who might be distracted by the trees and overlook the great big forest that's going to blot out their hard-won (by my generation) rights.

[NewJeffCT]

129. I'm in Connecticut...

and was just on an elevator with two women older than me (in their 50s) and another women around that age got on the elevator, and one of the first two called her "honey"...

So, it's not just a Southern thing.

[kliljedahl]

248. Explain this one

When I lived down there I was referred to as "Mr. keith". WTF is up with that? Never did get used to it.

[Swamp Rat]

253. Way'at Mistah Keith!

It is how we endearingly talk to our elders while showing the utmost respect.

If you speak Spanish, it is kinda like using vos instead of tu or Ud, (in some Spanish speaking countries that actually have vos in their vocabulary and use it that way).

[kliljedahl]

255. Damnit, I don't want to be an "Elder"

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[King Coal]

46. Hey ol' Lefty, how does "Haybag" grab you?

:hi:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

71. Grab this bag, you old troublemaker.......

I got yer bag.

Yeah, that works for me. In fact, it works for you, too.

Let us go and haybag together, my pretty...... ;)

[Bridget Burke]

12. It depends....

"Girls" can be insulting or friendly. Who's talking? A male boss discussing female employees? Or a Woman-Some-Years-Past-Girlhood planning an outing with her fellow WSYPG's?

"Chick" tends to be more annoying. It apparently came from the Spanish chica. But Spanish nouns have gender, so chico is also available. Much better than "male chick."

[LizW]

13. Sometimes

I was at a business lunch the other day with three other women. The youngest of us was around 47-48 years old. The very young waiter repeatedly called us "girls". I guess he thought he was being friendly, but it was weird.

My mother hates to be called "you guys" when there are only women present.

I think "ladies" is probably the safest thing to say without offending anyone, at least here in the south.

[hopeisaplace]

16. IMO - "ladies", is the nicest term to use

That word sits really well with me - respectful.

[Captain Hilts]

49. Yes, but it is an earned title. And has been misused by advertisers...

"Men's and Ladies watches on sale!"

They are not comparable terms. 'Men' means adult male. 'Lady' means well-behaved adult woman.

[marions ghost]

115. Ladies

is an archaic term associated with charm schools and restrooms.

"Ladies and Gentlemen" reminds me of the carnival barker. I'm expecting a description of the bearded lady or the guy who eats live chickens to come next.

[hopeisaplace]

257. I've never thought of the term

'lady' meaning well behaved...ok. I'm thinking about this as I'm typing..still thinking...you know to me it means a well educated, informed, humorous, sensitive, confident, person who can take on a man if required and still hold on to her feminine qualities: "lady". Unless Jerry Lewis says it...laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy....:silly:


edit: spelling, re-phrasing.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Here in the South, "Ma'am" is often used when addressing one "lady"

Respectful--but a bit of a shock the first time you hear it!

[quiet.american]

23. Yes, thank you -- I'm with your mom!

My mother hates to be called "you guys" when there are only women present.

As a woman, I find it really inappropriate, especially in upscale settings, when my friends and I, in heels, perfume, makeup and manicures are casually addressed by the maitre'd, concierge, ticket taker or whatever, as "...eyyy, how are you guys doing?, or "Can I help you guys?"

That's crap.

[Individualist]

103. Same here

Maybe it is a southern thing, but I'm a 62 year old woman, not a guy.

[iconoclastNYC]

101. Doesn't Lady mean

Servile to the patriarchy? I know a lot of feminists in the 70s hated the term Lady.

[Captain Hilts]

117. 'Lady' has been miss used for so long. "HEY Lady, move your car!" etc.

I associate it with being called out to, by cab drivers, etc.

I do refer to my female friends using the collective 'ladies' all the time.

[iconoclastNYC]

134. Well LADY is really illustrative of the complexities of language

And how STUPID it is for someone to shrilly demand that you not use a certain word because they don't like it.

From wikipedia:

LADY --- More recent usage: sexism

Non-sexist language guidelines forbid its use to refer attributively to the sex of a working person, as in lady lawyer and lady doctor. Many find these to have a condescending nuance not shared by female lawyer or woman doctor (should the sex be relevant at all); compare poetess for a similar problem.

Some advocates of non-sexist language recommend not using the word at all, whereas others permit its parallel use in the same circumstances in which a man would be called a gentleman or lord (for example, titling washrooms Men and Ladies would be considered sexist, but using either Men and Women or Ladies and Gentlemen would be acceptable; as is landlady as the parallel of landlord.)

In the United States, notably among younger feminists of the 1990s and 00s influenced by riot grrl, "lady" has occasionally been reclaimed in a more ironic fashion. For example, Miranda July's Joanie 4 Jackie chain letter videotape project is said to consist of "lady-made movies," a feminist music and video distributor in North Carolina called itself Mr. Lady Records, and chorus of Le Tigre's song "LT Tour Theme" from the album Feminist Sweepstakes (2000) declares itself to be written "for the ladies and the fags."

[Captain Hilts]

138. Wikepedia is total crap written by the last person to read the entry.

It means nothing.

'Lady' ISN'T sexist.

[iconoclastNYC]

150. You don't know much about WIKIPEDIA

You can edit it, but edits get noticed and improved by a community of people. Its a lot more sophisticated then you know.

Is there something in the quoted text you disagree with or do you just like to dismiss a resource by calling it crap.

[Captain Hilts]

155. No, in many contexts entries get dominated by cliques. nt

[iconoclastNYC]

260. Vague.

I've been using it for a long time and I find it an excellent resource and apparently a ton of other people do becasue it's a run away success but thanks for your vague negative generalizations.

[pitohui]

174. yes, "lady" is definitely used by rude people

it doesn't have good associations at all, it's for people who are yelling at you

[Spinzonner]

15. With all due respect

Get Over It

[dolo amber]

17. ...

:thumbsup:

[raccoon]

20. with all due respect

plonk.

Why is your profile disabled?

[Spinzonner]

27. With all due respect

It's none of your business

But thanks for asking. :hi:

[...of J.Temperance]

48. I'm a female and I use the term "girls", I don't think there's anything

Wrong about it Mr. Raccoon. I also call men "boys" often.

I'm a girl, so there you have it.

[Captain Hilts]

57. It's an informal/diminutive term. It's not always appropriate.

If you're referring to your colleagues of equal standing or your friends, it's okay. But too many people have used these terms to emphasize difference is status, not unlike President Bush's giving people nicknames while they have to call him 'Mr. President'.

[...of J.Temperance]

73. Well I don't use it to put anybody down

So I think thats okay.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

77. GIRLFRIEND!!!

Have one on OldLeftie (also a girl):

[...of J.Temperance]

136. Aw shucks, don't mind if I do :)

You know, people get all wound up over the most trivial things, it's...crazy, so it is.

Hey I always thought you were a boy...and now I find out that you're a girl! :)

[EFerrari]

21. Yes, and as in English, it can be a put down AND it can be

a term of endearment. It's the context that matters as much if not more than the word.

[raccoon]

56. Yes. nt

[neebob]

25. Well, I'm a 45-year-old girl

and I don't mind being called one and often refer to my peers as girls and ladies and, of course, women. I'm bothered by men calling us females. It has this biological, animalistic sexual feel that makes it seem sexist to me.

[rockymountaindem]

29. I'd like to speak for the young males

I'm 19, and all the males and females my age (I'll use the scientific terms to avoid mischaracterizing anybody :) ) refer to the females about our age as "girls". I think the reason for this is because all our mothers are "women", so as not to conflate the two, everybody not old enough to be our mom is a "girl". This isn't some Oedipal complex thing either, both the males and females do it.

Of course, there could be another reason, but this is my hypothesis.

[vonslagle]

31. It's indicative of age:

Young girls want to be called "Women."

Older women want to be called "Girls."

I'm getting used to being called a "Dick."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

83. Welcome to DU, vonslagle

I love you.

[vonslagle]

180. Thank You

(*blush*)

[...of J.Temperance]

158. I'm 27 in three weeks, so I'm young and I use the term "girl"

So I don't think it's indicative of age at all.

Just sayin'

[OldLeftieLawyer]

168. 27?

I have dental work older than you, my pretty.

::::: sigh :::::::

Happy Birthday (a bit early, but OldLeftie forgets these things)!!!

[vonslagle]

189. You Go Girl!

Actually, I think I meant it's indicative of one's comfort level with their age.

Someone who cherishes their youthfulness will delight in being called a girl. Somone who feels they aren't getting the respect their entittled to, demands to be called a "woman."

[2bfree]

33. I'm not crazy about it either.

Sometime the context doesn't bother me at all but other times it seems demeaning. I am also not very fond of "lady" it just grates on my nerves.

[ForrestGump]

34. Womyn just wanna have fun

As usual -- I'll say it slowly, so everyone can understand -- it's all about context. C-O-N-T-E-X-T. Context.

End of story.

Equating the term "girls" as applied to adult females to calling a black adult male "boy" is no equation at all. Not equivalent: gender*age NOT EQUAL TO gender*race*age. Divide by zero, result undefined. Game over. Thank you for playing.

[fudge stripe cookays]

68. .

Well said, boy.

:applause:

I go by just about anything that isn't the B word or the C word. It doesn't matter to me. And I certainly don't equate it with calling blacks "boy."

I see the lithium hasn't kicked in yet.
fsc

[ForrestGump]

195. You go, girl

Go? Go where? :hi:

[JHB]

35. I think it depends on a few factors...

...i.e., the relation between the speaker, the subject, and the audience (particuarly the degree of informality involved, the degree they display basic respect (or, conversely, boorishness) the rest of the day, etc.), lines of authority (and whether those are used or abused), relative ages, etc.

If it's an appropriate informality, then there shouldn't be a problem. And when it's an inappropriate informality, you can usually tell there's more of a problem involved than just a poor choice of words.

[ourbluenation]

36. The Irish in my family do it all the time - I've been refered to as a

"lovely girl" many times...I'm 42, professional person, married for years...hardly a girl.

[Captain Hilts]

142. In your family it makes sense.

In your office with clients, it would not.

[momisold]

37. I'm a 50 year old girl

and am not offended at all. I've tried saying "gals" but it sounds stupid to me.

[hiaasenrocks]

38. I can see we're addressing the critical issues here.

Add this one to the speech code book. :rofl:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

84. Yes, yes,

I love you, too.

Welcome to DU.

[StellaBlue]

39. I think this is more prevalent (and acceptable) in the South

When I was living in the UK, it was said, sometimes in a demeaning way by men, sometimes in a friendly way among women (e.g. 'Let's all get together tonight, girls!'.

But I think, generally, in the South, women (even feminists) would object to NOT being called 'girls'. Because they think of themselves as girls. Some of them (the Neiman Marcus set) in the infantile, cutesy, Daddy's-girl way (which is probably what you have an issue with), others (the rest of us) in a fun-loving, pro-female kind of way. If another woman said it to me, I would not be offended at all. If an old man said something like, 'You girls need to _____', I might be, depedning on his tone... you know?

That's my demographic contribution. I am in East Texas.

[momisold]

40. You could be right.

I grew up in West Texas. And I will always be a daddy's girl, even though he passed away in 1998!

[hiaasenrocks]

42. I live in South Carolina and the two "girls" I know

who use this word the most are from New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I don't think I've ever heard my mom, sisters, aunts, or female cousins use this term. Just my experience.

[stanwyck]

86. As a transplanted Midwesterner

now living in Atlanta, I believe you're correct.
I used to ask...so, is she 14? When a guy would say something about the "girl" he was dating. I used to find it very irritating and demeaning. But I've found that to be the least of my battles living in the South.
Like...these people are still fighting the Civil War. Really.

[porphyrian]

41. I hate how people say "utilize" when "use" is sufficient.

But, unless we want to start legislating people's use of language, I guess we'll just have to complain about it.

[Captain Hilts]

62. 'Use' and 'utilize' have not been used to establish hierarchies. nt

[porphyrian]

213. Pet peeves have to qualify now?

Are we in competition for the greater offense or something? Heirarchies are established by people, not words. For words to work, the listener has to either be superstitious or prone to suggestion. Simply calling a woman "girl" does not put the speaker heirarchically above the woman without the woman and everyone else responding in a confirming manner. In fact, among the ranks of egalitarians and feminists, the effect is reversed.

And, actually, "utilize" has been used in a jargonistic way to be exclusive and to appear more sophisticated, so you're wrong. Pbbt.

[Captain Hilts]

238. Calling a 'woman' a 'girl' is a means to reinforce hierarchies. nt

[porphyrian]

247. Breathing is a means to commit murder.

We can make random observations all day long, but that won't make one opinion any more or less than any other.

[Captain Hilts]

250. Do you think it's okay to call black men 'boy'? nt

[porphyrian]

254. Sure, if the person saying it is willing to face the consequences...

...of doing so. I wouldn't, but then I know better. However, this is a distraction from my original assertion that my opinion is no more or less better than anyone elses. You can believe whatever you like about it, that's your opinion. However, I do not feel that we should legislate language use, and we enter dangerous territory when we start to accept it. Restricting communication, even the kind we don't like, serves to enslave us, not free us.

[Captain Hilts]

279. Well 'I' is used instead of 'me' to sound more sophisticated.

But these terms do not directly refer to a hierarchy as referring to a woman as a 'girl' does.

The term 'girl' was used in the workplace to refer to subordinates.

In your private life, use whatever you want with your buddies, but in public speech, err on the side of formal and polite. You SHOULD care how people react.

[porphyrian]

288. That's largely your opinion.

"I" is used instead of "me" because most people don't know English grammar and have used it incorrectly for so long that the improper use sounds correct.

The term "girl" is still used to refer to women both in and outside of the workplace, and not necessarily to establish a heirarchy (which presumes the acceptance that a girl is somehow less than a woman). Social heirarchies are established outside of language use, not by it. Calling a Black male "boy," as per your earlier example, does not elevate the speaker heirarchically, nor does it lower the Black male's status. It is merely a matter of manners and insult.

What you think people SHOULD do is a matter of opinion, nothing more or less.

[Captain Hilts]

43. Referring to 'women' as 'females' implies something less than human. nt

[hiaasenrocks]

44. Same for "male" I guess. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

47. Correct! I live in the military community where 'women' are often...

referred to as 'females' and it really bothers me. And when I was in polling, referring to 'males' and 'females' bothered me.

I say, "the female senators voted for the bill," and "the female ??? responded to the serum more quickly than the males." For humans, it's an adjective, in science it's used as a noun.

[hiaasenrocks]

50. How about "chicks"?

And "dudes."

:toast:

[Captain Hilts]

55. In the right setting, by your friends, it's certainly okay! nt

[The Straight Story]

241. Hmmm ok by what standards?

I think individually things are taken a multitude of ways and it becomes, at times, cumbersome to try to take into account how all people feel about all things. 'Safe' speaking seems less realistic in a cultural context to me than just letting people speak as they do and realizing that they are different in how they address things.

I try not to worry about how people will react to my terminology nor do I sit about trying to gauge, in general, what things I can say to best make them happy. Either they accept my hillbilly ass for what it is or I see them as the more intolerant of things than they see me as being.

[Hardrada]

181. I was with a GIRLfriend one time and a waiter asked me

"Is this your chick?" and she was so enraged at the term his ears must have begun to burn.

[omega minimo]

51. Notice when in one sentence a man is called man & a woman is called girl

btw "you guys" is not "asexual."

[Robert Cooper]

52. Yes, and we speak English here in Canada ;-)

As usual, this sort of thing depends greatly on the nature of the relationship one has with the individual. With strangers it's presumptious. With friends it can be an acknowledgment of the closeness of the relationship.

[Talismom]

54. That's the kind of thing I was just about to post...

Whether I'm comfortable with or insulted by any title depends on the relationship I have with the speaker and the attitude expressed (warmth, respect, good-natured humor or sarcasm and disrespect) to me when I'm addressed. I can't make a blanket statement about how any of these terms would effect me when we're speaking out of context w/respect to the whole conversation.

[Quixote1818]

53. I am 36 and I still say "girls" unless they look old

It just feels strange calling someone my age, a woman because I still feel young. If I see someone who looks much older than I am the word "woman" comes out naturally but not if she is around my age or younger.

My old roommate was a female 33 years old and she called her boyfriend who was her age a "boy". I will never forget her saying "I just met a boy". I thought it was cute and didn't take offense thinking she was sexist. She obviousely still associated dating the way she did when she was young. It was a subconcious statement.

So are we supposed to start saying "Woman-friend" rather than "Girl-friend" now?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

85. Oh, honey

Believe me, 36 IS young. You'll realize how young it is when you grow up to become an OldLeftie.

The friends I have will always be my girlfriends. Always have been, always will be.

We got other fish to fry besides worrying about what we're called. We just don't want to miss Last Call, that's all.

[marions ghost]

252. 36 is young

but not a girl. If womanhood is not where it used to be, ie. about 21 --just where IS the magic line where you'll actually call somebody a woman? Only when she gets truly, visibly old?

The problem may be that for casual conversation, there is no good female equivalent to 'guys.' (Boy is the logical equivalent to 'girl.') When somebody says "this girl' and they turn out to be approaching 40...well it seems ridiculous...in a way that doesn't happen when you say 'this guy' for a male of the same age. 'Guy' is more age-neutral. It seems a little pathetic...like you're trying to hold back the hands of the clock, to refer to a woman in her 30's as a girl.

[CanuckAmok]

58. Personally, I'm offended by any term which defines gender at all.

I think Comrade is ideal. That way, we are always completely equal.

Examples: Comrade Smith, Comrade Bergeron.

[raccoon]

61. Good suggestion. :-) nt

[Robert Cooper]

65. Labels do not make people "completely equal" nt

[HardWorkingDem]

80. But then.....

people like Bill O'Lielly will scream...."what are you, some sort of Christmas attacking hating COMMIE!!!!"......

[Ilsa]

60. "Females" was used everytime a human resources

manager had to refer to women in the work place. "Female" denotes gender, but not species. He seemed uncomfortable using the terms "men" and "women". I doubt he would have called us "female homo sapiens".

[Captain Hilts]

64. That's really interesting. nt

[Lorien]

96. I hate the term "females" when used in that fashion. Far more offensive

than "girls". I think common usage of "females" instead of "women" started with various rap group/ singers that promoted a less than progressive view of women. The term is used to reduce us to faceless subhuman animals, as nature programs usually refer to "the female" or "the male" when clinically discussing animals.

[Captain Hilts]

118. Exactly. It implies something less than human. nt

[moriverrat]

146. The species was part of his job title

Hello, Ilsa,

I know that I am going off topic somewhat, but the term
"human resources" has always seemed to be a degrading term in my opinion, as it tends to define employees as commodities rather than people, such as the old fashioned term "personnel," which is still used in some places.

What started this trend?

[Ilsa]

204. I dunno. I always preferred "Personnel" myself,

but that was the name of the dept.

[sendero]

66. The problem with these things is..

... that they can be diminiutive or not depending totally on context, a complex context including relationship, tone of voice, verbal context, etc, etc, etc.

I abhor hard and fast prosciptions against using this term or that, except for the obvious racial epithets.

But as much as I value my free speech, I make an effort to not offend anyone unintentionally.

[leftofthedial]

67. one of my pet peeves

is overly sensitive people, too quick to take offense.

[Quixote1818]

70. I am with you on that

nt

[Captain Hilts]

78. If you spent a good chunk of your life being referred to as a child...

then it would bother you.

It's something men often don't understand, but should be considerate of.

[raccoon]

81. Thank you. nt

[leftofthedial]

206. I'm frequently referred to as "boy" or one of the "boys"

always have been

doesn't bother me

I'm about as considerate a person I know, but context is always important.

You last sentence generalizes male behavior inaccurately and unfairly.

[Err]

91. That's one of mine, also.

[KansDem]

69. A few months ago I was having breakfast at a local coffee shop...

Seated near me were two two young males (by "young" I mean 30-ish: I'm 52). They looked to be dressed in what I refer to as "corporate causal." Anyway, there weren't many people in the shop at that time, so it was easy to hear their conversation.

It sounded like they were both in management/ownership positions of their companies, because they were talking business and constantly saying things like, "Well, I'll get my girl to contact your girl with that information..." in reference to the office staff.

I thought, "Man, how old are these 'girls'? Chances are they're older than these two unenlightened boobs!"

[raccoon]

82. Exactly, KansDem. nt

[slackmaster]

89. So, if I say "I'm going out with the boys" it's OK if they're all white?

But not if one or more is black.

Gotcha.

[Captain Hilts]

107. Context is everything. Gotcha. nt

[blogslut]

92. Let me guess

You're under 40.

[raccoon]

205. Nope. Over 40. nt

[RagingInMiami]

94. Girls is better than "ho's"

In my opinion, a women is still a girl until she turns 30. Then she becomes a woman. And she doesn't become a lady until the age of 50.

[bicentennial_baby]

95. um, wow...

"a women is still a girl until she turns 30. Then she becomes a woman. And she doesn't become a lady until the age of 50."

:wow:

[Captain Hilts]

108. Men can't be 'gentlemen' until 50? Or women ladies?

Incorrect.

To be 'gentlemen' or 'lady' is an appelation you earn through behavior.

Similarly, officers in the military are officers and 'gentlemen'. They supposedly earned it.

It has nothing to do with age, but rather, merit.

[iconoclastNYC]

97. Gay men call each other boys all the time

And i've heard women call other adult women girl too.

Stop telling everyone what they should use and what connotations you think words have.

[raccoon]

102. Gosh, you sure come across as authoritarian.

Sure you're not Republican?

And stop telling me what I can and can't say.

You stop telling other posters what they shouldn't say and what connotations they think words have.

[iconoclastNYC]

105. It was a parody of your OP

Which tells everyone not to use that word because it's your PET PEVE.

Hypocrite.

[Captain Hilts]

140. You have trivialized other people's concerns.

Language DOES matter.

[iconoclastNYC]

151. Well i think it is trivial to order people

Not to use a word that most people don't have a problem with.

CONTEXT matters more.

[Captain Hilts]

163. Context is important.

But trivializing people's concerns about how they are addressed doesn't help.

Go through life a short, red-headed woman, and you'll learn not to like being called 'girl' by people you don't know.

Just as black men were correct to be offended at being called 'boy'. Used this way, the term reinforces a hierarchy. For so long women were in mostly subordinate positions in the workplace, and referring to women in the workplace as 'girls' is a holdover from that. That's why it matters.

On a personal level, and in a personal context, it doesn't.

[raccoon]

166. See my post # 11.

[Captain Hilts]

109. In the workplace it matters. nt

[mrhopeforwes]

98. for what it's worth...

I would say, "I'm dating this girl...", saying "lady" or "woman" sounds so damn formal. but I don't think of myself as a "man"...I'm a "guy." ...don't be so damn caught up on literalism.

[raccoon]

104. See my post # 11.

And stop being so damn authoritarian.

[Captain Hilts]

112. Those terms seem perfectly appropriate for the situation.

I sense you wouldn't refer to a client who is an adult as a 'girl'. It's perfectly fine to say "I'm dating this girl." You're not at work, you are speaking about informal relationships about people of equal age/social standing. Why not refer to her as a girl? No one's saying you shouldn't.

[WinkyDink]

132. I HATE "Guys" for women!!

What next? A re-make of the musical "Guys and Guys"??

[GaYellowDawg]

135. I agree.

I think it's condescending.

I'm a teaching assistant. This semester, I'm the TA for an elementary school methods course. I'm the only male in a room of over 20. "Girls" would be condescending. So would "gals." I just don't like the sound of "ladies."

I try not to use gender-specific language for two reasons: first, I don't want to sound condescending, and second, I don't want them to even think about me noticing their gender. I want them to feel like they can come into the classroom and not feel like they're being drooled at.

Fortunately, I'm at a southern university, and "y'all" is both gender-neutral and acceptable! :woohoo:

[entanglement]

143. Nice thread

After reading all the responses, I understand 'girls' is demeaning / chauvinistic, 'females' is dehumanizing, 'ladies' is creepily polite, 'you guys' is irritating and and absolute no-no, and 'gals' makes people's skin crawl

[Captain Hilts]

152. I know, it's a hassle, isn't it?

When I was in Russia the same problems cropped up. The term for young women, devushka, was really a perjorative because it was most commonly associated with calling out at indolent shop girls.

Just try and err on the polite side my friend!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

170. And, you just know that

using "fuckers" isn't going to work well, either, don't you?

[Captain Hilts]

178. All right, game's up, you made me laugh! nt

[OldLeftieLawyer]

185. heh heh heh

"Old age and treachery,
Always overcomes youth and skill.
Ain't too much that we won't do;
What Waylon won't, Willie will.

Even though we've spent our lives,
Chargin' up the wrong side of the hill.
Old age and treachery,
Always overcomes youth and skill."

Written by Max D. Barnes, Willie Nelson, Troy Seals and Waylon Jennings.
(© Act Five Music/Hardscratch Music/Irving Music/Waylon Jennings Music.)
From "If I Can Find A Clean Shirt", © 1991, RCA.

[Hardrada]

187. Do you remember a protest group in the Reagan time

called "Ladies Against Women?" I wish that lighthearted approach would resume, don't you think?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

188. I never heard of them, but

what a GREAT name for a remarkably sane-sounding group.

Yeah, it's kind of sad to watch all that energy and, sometimes, anger creep into what is essentially a meaningless matter. There's so much more to do, so much more fun to have.

And, you really do get so much more done with laughter than you do by being all that serious and stuff.

Of course, when my clients go off to the Big House for the rest of their lives, they don't think it's funny, but, you know, f*** 'em if they can't take a joke ..................

[Hardrada]

192. Someone posted a picture of them on DU one time

and they were somewhat on the order of "Billionaires for Bush."
I got their humor but that particular era did not have a lot of nuance or irony. No internet in the Reaganzeit. Nor the underground papers I used to peddle in the 1960's for 20 cents a copy and I could keep a nickle for beer money. (How pathetic that sounds!)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

198. Not pathetic at all

Remember a "nickel bag" or a "dime bag"?

A six-pack wasn't even two bucks.

Those underground papers were the internet of yesteryear. We knew, even back then - we knew.

Cheers, pal:

[Hardrada]

201. O yes, I remember them.

and a case of cheapo beer for about $3.99. We helped keep sane with the underground press (I was on the staff of a few of the evanescent productions) and the DU is the closest I've been since. Actually superior in the efficient propagation of antiestablishment invective and insight!

[blogslut]

256. I remember them

They came to Dallas during the 1984 repub convention. They were wonderful:

http://blogs.salon.com/0004123/

[VaYallaDawg]

156. I work with a female colleague who has a client that's always saying

... "I'll have my girl call your girl."

Makes her nuts. She's tried to tell him umpteen times, "I AM THE GIRL" -- just doesn't seem to register.

In the context that jerk uses the word, I think it's not only sexist, it's condescending, belittling, whatever you want to call it.

[crispini]

277. Yeah, I do think "girl" as used as a substitute for "assistant" ...

is kind of annoying. It's got all of those "girl Friday" connotations ... there's definitely cultural baggage there.

For the other usages, I'm not sure it matters all that much.

[fudge stripe cookays]

157. You know what I hate?

Overly sensitive people who accuse everyone of authoritarianism.

That REALLY burns me up.
fsc

[pitohui]

159. it is not the equivalent of calling black adult males "boys"

it is strictly context, in a business environment, calling a woman a girl is not proper, in a social or family environment, it is very proper and friendly

it's girls' night out when you're going out w. yr friends, not ladies' night out, which sounds like a bunch of old fuddy-duddies in their 80s

in high school, when our principal called us, "young ladies," we knew perfectly well that it was trouble and that the word "lady" is an insult and preface to being chewed out

"girls" is for fun

agreed, the word "boy" has too much baggage, but this girl over forty is happy to say that "girl" simply does not have the same baggage

calling someone "lady" is pretty much rude and brings back horrible memories to anyone who was once a teen, i realize "lady" has a different meaning in england, but in usa it's a word used to scold and shame

and there is a place for a name that is not so clinical as women or females

[RB TexLa]

161. Why not just call people by their names?

[Seedersandleechers]

171. Exactly. This AM my landlord's rep. kept calling me sweetie.

I'll except it maybe one time in a conversation-but not 10 times. I'm old enough to be her mother. Geesh.

[pitohui]

176. because you don't always know the name

of course the easy way out is just to use the name

but in the example of the martini drinking women who got freaked because the waiter called them, "ma'am," what the heck can a man do?

yr waiter doesn't know yr name if you are not a regular at that restaurant, these were tourists from out of town

i think we need to assume that most people are doing the best they can

jumping up their nose abt it isn't helpful to anyone's cause, there are bigger battles

as a tiny older female, i really don't care if you call me "girl" or "ma'am," just don't call me late to dinner, what i object to is when you get in my physical space or take other actions that actually cause me harm

[Greyhound]

165. I think you're going to have to get at least a majority of your fellow

females to agree on this, I've been admonished for both. I was raised feminist and was always told never to call a woman that, Then I got older and started seeing a lot of women that told me it was a term of affection and they wanted me to call them girls. Maybe you could wear signs or a bracelet or something. Same goes for opening doors.
What's a guy to do? :shrug:

[raccoon]

274. Signs or a bracelet sounds like a good idea :-) nt

[raccoon]

275. Dupe. nt

[sniffa]

172. but i Love my girLs

[Hardrada]

182. The girls go

Where the Boys Are. (starring Paula Prentiss etc.)

[cassiepriam]

193. LOL I used to agree with you, but when I hit 50 I liked being called

a girl again.

[Cleita]

194. Actually, I'm more offended by "ladies". I don't know why.

Calling women "girls" even elderly women always seem to me to be an affectionate term. :shrug:

[incapsulated]

212. I agree

I hate that term. The "ladies". "Hey, Lady!" "Young Lady" (usually reserved for an angry parent)

Still, I wouldn't like to be called a girl at my age. Or maybe I would, if it means you think I look 21.

:)

[Zuni]

199. some people get offended by anything

I think this is ridiculous

my mother refers to her and her friends as the "girls", and I know many other females over 21 years of age that call their friends "girls" or "the girls"

just like I might refer to my friends as "my boys"

[Javaman]

200. never used the term girls, I use gals. As in guys and gals. n/t

[omega minimo]

219. GAL!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!!!

:puke:

[incapsulated]

225. Are you dissing me?

|
|
V

[Javaman]

230. Ah what?

Is something wrong with gal? Is this yet another term that I have to censor myself from using???????

Freedom of speech is just that.

oy vey.

[incapsulated]

262. It was a *joke* (not directed at you)

omega minimo responded to you by puking over the word "gal". I asked if that was a diss at me because of my sig, lol.

[evirus]

208. i do it

i do it out of efficenticy, its just quicker and easier to say for me... heck call me a boy if you want to i dont care, as long as you refer to me as an actual person, know what i mean?

[Warren DeMontague]

209. I guess I'm old fashioned

If you're a human female and you're 18 or over, you're a "woman".

[incapsulated]

211. Any female under 25 is a girl to me

I'm getting old.

Usually I just call them "kids".

Damn kids.

[carolinalady]

216. My husband called me a "young girl" a little while back when

talking to his aunt. I cracked up and reminded him that I turn 40 this year and already have scheduled my "mid-life crisis" (I want to get it over with early--LOL).

[mwooldri]

217. It maybe a pet peeve but there can be political correctness gone overboard

We could refer to us as being <gender> Homo Sapiens. e.g. "You see that female homo-sapiens standing by the alcoholic beverage dispensing artifact? I think she is very pleasing to my eyes."

Political correctness gone overboard.

There's not that many slang names used for women (unless it's derogatory) in the UK.

Mark.

[incapsulated]

221. "pleasing to my eyes"?!

That is a sexist/judgmental statement! Are you suggesting that the female homo-sapien exists solely for the pleasure of your visual senses?! Why are you singling out that particular comrade for personal evaluation of a blatantly sexual nature?

Back to the re-education camp with you!


(and don't call me a bird)

[mwooldri]

283. lol :) - there of course is the politically _incorrect_ way:

"Cor look at that slapper kegging down them bacardis. She's a stunner! Look at the bazookas on her! She's a bit of alright... nudge nudge wink wink say no more!"

[JAbuchan08]

220. I can call older women "women," but when it comes to women my own age

I feel weird calling them "women." It just sounds strange coming out of my mouth

[incapsulated]

222. Because you're probably still...

A girl. Enjoy it while it lasts. :)

[JAbuchan08]

251. I'm actually a 23 year old "boy," does that still count?

[incapsulated]

261. lol, yeah...

You can still call girls your age... girls. ;)

I assumed you were one from the way you wrote that, sorry.

[JAbuchan08]

271. Maybe I should have just said: "that's probably it"

it's not like you have any way of knowing...

[NNN0LHI]

224. How about girlies? Is girlies all right? n/t

[JuniperLea]

227. I think it's petty to worry about it

I love when my boyfriend calls me "doll", "babe" or his "girl" but I really don't care for it much when someone calls me "ma'am".

I think people are just to sensitive these days, too thin-skinned and way too easy to take offense. Don't we have more important things to worry about?

[Captain Hilts]

240. That's great. We're talking about terminology used in public settings...

and spaces with non-family members.

I have a friend that calls me 'doll' too and I get a kick out of it.

[JuniperLea]

246. That's what I'm saying

I think people are too thin skinned and ready to jump down anyone's throat over any perceived or imagined infraction of personal space. Like I said, I hate being called "ma'am", but as far as pet peeves go, that is way down on the list and I'm at the point where there are so many IMPORTANT things to think about, that as long as someone doesn't call me ***stain or f***wad or stupid or something like that, who cares?

[Marr]

233. This is the sort of thing that makes progressives look silly.

The PC crap is really grating.

I'll speak any way I damn well please, thank you very much.

[omega minimo]

236. Some people are afraid to call women "woman"-- afraid of the power of it

[bloom]

242. the issue

I think it is the power or lack thereof and what it says about our society.

So you have a woman lawyer and she doesn't care if she is called a girl - because she is comfortable with the power that she has.

Other people are more sensitive to noticing - like the cafe example where the two 30ish businessmen refer to the women who probably do secretarial work as "girls". And there is a patriarchal implication similar to blacks being called boys. It's the power thing. The social order of things. (Of course women can refer to each other as girls - just like black men can call themselves boys if they want to.)

When you consider that secretaries - when the job was done by men was a higher status/better paid type of job - well - it just goes to show you.

And what now - if more and more women become lawyers - will there be less status/less money - at least unless you are a "corporate" lawyer. I think it may be happening already.

[raccoon]

273. Thank you, Bloom.

I think it's just as you said, "the issue...is the power or lack thereof and what it says about our society."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

239. Depends on the context. An Accepted Definition is as an informal reference

to a grown adult woman.

It can also be offensive.

It can also be a definition of an immature woman or young female child.

Depends on context according to dictionary.com :)

[Vinca]

245. Even worse than being called "girls" is when a male boss

refers to a female assistant as "my girl." Your girl? I don't think so, Lardbelly. There's not enough money on the planet to buy this "girl" and slavery isn't fully reinstated yet.

[Yollam]

249. Of all the things to get annoyed about...

...this has got to be about the most trivial.

"Bitches" and "hos", I could understand, or maybe "chicks" -these have negative connotations. Even women address other woman as "girls". It can actually be very flattering. Besides, it's generally not applied to women of accomplishment.

"That Madeline Albright is a great girl!" Who would say that?

Men address groups of men as "boys" or "fellows" all the time. Unless it's a white guy addressing black man/men, it's not a problem, either.

Personally, I wouldn't use it in reference to a woman over 30. But both men and women under 30 are pretty much green kids anyway, so why not?

[Nobody]

259. I'd rather be referred to as a "girl" than "man"

Especially since I ovulate.

[Warren DeMontague]

270. I hate ALL speech

telepathy is nowhere near as messy.

[DrunkenMaster]

276. It is NOT equal to calling black men "boy"

fer chrissakes, what ridiculous garbage. One look at history shows the difference between common slang usage and demeaning racist slurs based on a history of slavery.

[Captain Hilts]

280. A man calling another man a 'boy' in a work setting...

is being hierarchical.

Similarly, a man referring to a 'woman' as a 'girl' is doing the same thing.

Sexism is acceptable whereas racism is not? I'd rather do without both.

[omega minimo]

281. Calling women "girl" is common slang frequently in demeaning sexist usage

based on a history of sexism.

There is an equivalence b-w sexist and racist "common slang." It is now more widely acknowledged and recognized that racist language is harmful. We still have a way to go with sexist language-- especially on DU.

:hi:

[DrunkenMaster]

286. Admitted!

"Girl" can absolutely be sexist when used demeaningly, but there are many cases where it can be used either as self-description (I know many females that will refer to themselves and their companions as "girls", including "girl's nights out" and "girlfriends", etc)or as the equivalent of "boys" in casual adult social conversation.

It is not an inherently prejudiced term like "boy" is for black men, which has an immediate historical connotation of slavery. I also agree that this nation has a lot of work to do when it comes to eliminating sexism against women, but again, there is not the immediate, automatic connotative connection to a blatant history of brutality.

I'm a little sorry I let myself get dragged into this discussion: civil rights for all people is paramount. I do feel, however, that getting upset if someone says "girls and guys" instead of "girls and boys" or "guys and gals" is just simply goofy and will not move progressives anywhere but around the same old useless, tail-chasing circle we have been repeating for decades.

Peace.

[omega minimo]

289. There's a range of use and acknowledgement of problematic usage

is a simple enough thing.

:toast:

[Captain Hilts]

291. Yes, Omega...

I'm fairly new here, and the regular usage of sexist and demeaning language still surprises me: referring to people as "pussies," complimenting men - and women for "having balls," etc.

[omega minimo]

292. Surprising, isn't it?

Still working toward a time we can say "It is now more widely acknowledged and recognized that sexist language is harmful."

Just to have it ACKNOWLEDGED is frequently too much to ask at DU. It has to be ARGUED, instead of recognized as the reality that it is.

Thanks to DrunkenMaster for an outstanding example of how to bridge the gap.

[noonwitch]

282. I'm not offended by "girl", but then I'm 41, so it's a compliment

I don't think it has the same historical connotation that "boy" does when applied to black men in this country.

[booley]

285. so can I still call adult men "Girls"?

Not that I do it often but I know plenty of other guys that do...

[Captain Hilts]

290. A male friend of mine often uses that phrase, "between us girls"...

when he's going to tell me something VERY interesting, so I look forward to hearing that phrase.