Possibly offensive war question, but have to ask it...

[HardWorkingDem]

I work in a predominately republican occupation and when we discuss the war in Iraq, there is the underlying concept that is just boiling under the surface but few will even mention: to these republicans, the main reason they do not want to see the US leave Iraq is out of fear of appearing to retreat and lose another war. In other words, they are more concerned about the American war ego than almost any other issue now that WMDs and nuclear issues have been discredited (though I've known this to be BS from the start).

So, I guess what I want to know is, does anyone else get the feeling that if most American's were truthful about this war, many would say they could not care less about the Iraqi people when it comes to American soldiers and their safety.

That if from the start Bush had said he wanted to invade Iraq to bring democracy, the majority of American's would have said, "Screw that - the Iraqi people don't mean that much to me to sacrifice American lives for their democracy."

Thoughts?

[orpupilofnature57]

1. Shrub and Halliburton were the only people that wanted to bring us

there.Lies, profits and covert dealing, just like a sociopath is in just for the fact they know no other way.

[stray cat]

2. Bin Laden called us a paper tiger that wimps out and won't fight

because we are not willing to lose people for any principle. He says Al queda defeated Americans in Somali and they cut and ran as soon as a little blood was shed. We cut and run in Beirut under Reagan as soon as we were attacked. The fear is that we will embolden terrorism because it is obvious that all we do is fold when something becomes difficult.

[Vincardog]

4. That fear is BULL SHIT. WE will fight for a good reason. We must

CUT THUR BUSHIT and Run From his Imperial ambitions.

[rainy]

16. We leave when we have been defeated, it is not cutting and running

We lost, plain and simple.

[me b zola]

24. What does OBL have to do with Iraq?

Saddam did not attack us. The Iraqis did not attack us. We went there and attacked them.

Why is that reason & logic befuddles repukes?

[laura888]

53. Exactly! And what IS the principle that we are fighting for in Iraq?

If it is indeed "democracy" - this is not what we set out for. Not the principle we went to war for.

We went to war to disarm Iraq. Mission accomplished. Time to leave.

[EC]

34. Of course any one with a brain knows they taunt us, just as they did

Russia...So they can break us just like they did to Russia...


It's a childs game. Adults know when to fold, which in truth makes them the winners..

[immoderate]

50. How about the principle of not getting our people killed?

--IMM

[OnionPatch]

55. But in Afghanistan we DID cut and run!!

We ran right straight to Iraq, which had no terrorists.

This Iraq-Terrorist connection is the main bag of BS of the whole war propaganda campaign. The war in Iraq IS NOT ABOUT TERRORISM. At least not to most liberals I know.

If Bush were to say he's pulling all the troops out of Iraq not to send them home, but to send them to find Osama bin Laden, I would cheer!

[Tab]

3. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of ego tied up in it

(and don't forget jobs)

But just look at slogans like "These colors don't run" and how they were just brushing the retreat-wanting Dems as cowards.

It's machismo, it's not smart tactics. There is such concepts as "cut your losses" and "live to fight another day".

But they have so much invested, emotionally, that their position is unequivocably correct, that to reverse it makes them worse that "that flip-flopper", John Kerry.

Plus, on one level, they probably accept that if acknowledging it was a mistake, they leave themselves open to war crime charges, given how this war was initiated to begin with.

[tsuki]

Look at Murtha's proposal. It is a peace with honor.

He claims the military HAS completed its mission. There is nothing more for them to do. It is up to the Iraqis to set up their own government. We are interfering in that process. The focus is on the troops in Iraq, not the democratic process.

[nickyt]

12. ...and Col. Murtha refers to a "redeployment", which is very different

from cut/run/surrender/quit...

[tsuki]

19. Yes, if we get his message out, it may turn some heads.

[immoderate]

51. Wherever they are "redeployed"...

...our troops will be a magnet for terrorists, and that place will become an incubator for terrorism and insurgency.

I hope that was a euphemism for, "bring 'em home."

--IMM

[Karenina]

14. There is no "honor"

in what American citizens have allowed their psychopathic *administration to perpetrate in Iraq. It is an ATROCITY and the military personnel who signed up in good faith are NOT to be blamed.
May Murtha's stance be the beginning of truth-telling. May anyone with the sense of a billygoat jump on the bandwagon. Where's my fucking cowbell?

[tsuki]

18. Be sure and tell all the Right Wingers that. You will certainly

convince them to withdraw.

[HereSince1628]

5. Welcome to the last 6 years of the Vietnam War.

Much the same. Really.

[Blue_In_AK]

6. Exactly ... that's what I was thinking.

And so many people still haven't gotten over the fact that we "lost" that one.

[Beam Me Up]

27. It won't take six years to wind this wone down, though.

I'm not sure how long it will take, but I bet it won't be more than two at the most.

UNLESS THERE IS ANOTHER MAJOR 'TERRORIST' (tm) ATTACK.

[Joey Liberal]

7. I live in Oklahoma and I work with republicans.........

They feel that we should support the war, no matter what. They feel that anyone who dares to oppose the war or Bush is a traitor. They could care less about Americans without health care, and they despise the Katrina victims. They do not care about the budget deficit or the trade deficit. These people attend right wing churches where their Pastors attack Democrats (and they really go after Gays) and praise Bush because he's such a good "Christian." If I didn't live here, it would be hard to believe that people are really like this. These are the people that Bush appeals to. They are gullable.

[Proud_Lefty]

13. It's not surprising if you really think about it.

Good "Christians" gave up common sense and following their own instincts long ago. They are followers, not leaders. They shy away from debates or facts because they have been convinced using those abilities will send them to hell for all eternity. These are perfect targets for the GOP spin machine who rely on fear to push their agenda. We have many of them in my area and I avoid them like the plague. You can usually see a blank emptiness in their eyes and conversations. They could never even start to see their own hypocrisy.

[Amonester]

31. If they knew the robber-barons on the bushco side call them

"wackos"...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/11/03/abramoff/index_np.html

Scanlon, a former aide to Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Tx., sent the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana to describe his strategy for protecting the tribe's gambling business. In plain terms, Scanlon confessed the source code of recent Republican electoral victories: target religious conservatives, distract everyone else, and then railroad through complex initiatives.

"The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees," Scanlon wrote in the memo, which was read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. "Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them."

Perhaps they could learn how much a "Good Christian" the criminal in chief is in reality...

O8)

[ClayZ]

35. It is a big jingoistic circle jerk!

Everyone outside their circle is "anty meriun"..... ARGH!

Right wing Fanatic Pastors and evil Politicians have been planning all this for decades. The Politicians played on the Fundies plans for the RAPTURE and the Fundies bought the goods planted in their churches all over the country by the repukes.

Most of those who are just plain fooled have no idea how fucked they are. Many don't even know what the polls are saying. They wouldn't read a worldly newspaper or watch anything but Christian TV. The MSM tweaked and twisted the whole mess. It resulted in Mass Psychosis.

They are really going to be pissed when the teetering house of card actually falls.

[Virginian]

33. How do you drop a dime on them?

How do you inform IRS that there are political gatherings passing themselves off as Churches for the Tax Exempt status?

There are so many "churches" that have lost their way. They no longer follow Jesus Christ, they follow GW Bush instead.
Jesus wouldn't despise the Katrina victims. It is their responsibility as Christians to help the victims and the other poor and homeless and sick and helpless. That is the Christian way.

The Bible says to love thy neighbor and to love one another, not love one another except Gays and others who are different from you. I think these preachers must think if they don't carry on about the "sin" of homosexuality, more people would "become" gay. Maybe more people might come out of the closet and live happier lives, but I don't think more people would "become" gay. If you use their logic, then the gay lifestyle is preferable over the straight lifestyle and all men must resist "choosing" it. Hmmm, that makes me question the orientation of the preachers.

[acmejack]

38. Funny you should ask

Here is the Tax Code: http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=120703,00.html

Where Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?


If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.
By phone:

You can contact the IRS toll free at 1-800-829-0433.

International callers may call their US Embassy or call 215-516-2000 (this is not a toll-free number).
By mail:

Written correspondence can be mailed to the service center where you file your return. Addresses can be found at; Where to File Addresses

Although you are not required to identify yourself, it is helpful to do so. Your identity can be kept confidential. You may also be entitled to a reward.

If you are a taxpayer who lives outside the United States, the IRS has full-time permanent staff in 3 U.S. embassies and consulates and an office in Puerto Rico. Contact My Local Office Internationally has telephone numbers and addresses of these offices.

Walk-in Offices:

IRS Taxpayer Assistance Centers locations can be found at Contact My Local Office.

If you are a taxpayer who lives outside the United States, the IRS has full-time permanent staff in 3 U.S. embassies and consulates and an office in Puerto Rico.

http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

[newspeak]

48. you mean their good germans

good germans lock-step to their leader without question. I won't be goose stepping anytime soon. Now someone won the war in Vietnam. Who made the most profits? And as Gen. Smedley Butler stated "war is a racket." Maybe you should ask those "good christians" what they think of the goings on at Bohemian Grove? All they have to do is google it and they can see for themselves how christian this administration and their friends are.

[Mz Pip]

8. This was supposed to be an "easy" war

Of course Bush didn't listen to anyone who offered a different opinion. Anyone with a working knowledge of the geopolitics of the region could have set him straight.

Certainly after 9/11 there was little love for Arabs, Iraqi or otherwise, in America. I certainly remember getting tons of spam e-mail chain letters that were down right racist, anti-Arab screeds that were from RWers.

The PNAC crowd wanted to rearrange the furniture in the mid-east to make it more user friendly to US interests. They had a domino theory that once one state was democratized then all the others would follow suit. They picked Iraq because it was, in their opinion, the weakest. Then they sold their war with 9/11 bandwagon patriotism that morphed into some noble cause of liberating Iraqis.

THey didn't care about Iraqis any more than they cared about Saudis or Syrians or Libyans. They picked Iraq because they thought it would be easy. THen they would be heros. They seriously misjudged that these people would end up hating occupation as much as they hated repression.

It would be swell if Iraq came out of all of this better than it was before it all started. I'm just not particularly optimistic. THe Repubs was to save face, but they are really missing the big picture.

Who cares what the world thinks. I don't care if some country I've never heard of thinks we're cowards. This war isn't producing the desired results. It's time to call it quits. The rest of the region has a stake in house Iraq turns out. Let them do something about this mess.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[tulsakatz]

9. I think they do fear being branded as losers.........

....not that they would ever admit it. Their colossal egos would never allow them to acknowledge this simple fact. They can wrap themselves in the flag and talk about how this is the greatest country in the world (whether or not it's true) but the bottom line is, they don't want it to be another Viet Nam.

But I know one thing for sure, if we had been told the truth before the war, there never would have been a war!! If Bush had said, ok, Saddam's not really a threat to us but I just want to liberate the Iraqi people. Not many would have voted for that.......

[tocqueville]

10. I think you are right and there are other concerns too

from an European perspective (and it can be called egoistic too) nobody is very keen to see the US "beaten" in Iraq, for the very simple reason that a "dishonorable" retreat would be considered as a major victory by the Islamist fundies and fuel further destabilization
of the middle-east. And thus threaten European interests and even Russian ones.

Even if there is no "domino theory" here either, it's not impossible that a "cut and run" could trigger real unrest in countries like Jordan and Egypt.

That's why the uS has to make a strategical retreat but stay in the Gulf as Murtha, Clark and other propose : send a signal : don't try to mess somewhere else or we send the Marines. And in that case an alliance with EU forces would be possible.

But to do that there must be a political settlement, negotiations with the other local actors, specially Iran and Syria : OK we tone down the rethoric of evildoers, we forget about oil and bases, but you work to keep Iraq intact by protecting your groups. In such a scenario the Al Zarqawi guys would be history within two weeks, because they would lose all logistics. Today they are used as "useful" idiots by all factions in Iraq because they are indirectly helping their own agenda.

But that needs a strong US leader with a strategic perspective. Maybe Wesley Clark is the man for that. But 2008 might be too late. The US is sitting on a powder barrel and smoking...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Frankly

I don't care much about the Iraqi people. Or I didn't. Now that we've screwed them over I feel a sense of perhaps guilt for them. I doubt that the Iraqi people care much about me, either. And that's just fine. Of course I have a sense of shared humanity and I want to be kind, yada, yada...but really. No.

You're right. Their freedom really wasn't my problem. Sorry.

[hippywife]

42. Guilt is

an inwardly focused emotion and does nothing for the innocent who have had to suffer. It has more to do with ourselves and our level of comfort. If we all truly held a sense of shared humanity then people the world over would have food, water, shelter, human rights and freedom from disease. That is the place to begin.

This is a small planet and we are more interconnected than we have ever been and growing more so all the time. We must share this planet and there is no life on it that is more precious above another. Until people realize that we are not isolated from the rest of the world, then they will continue to hoist suffering upon other people for their own needs. Treating others as we would be treated would go a long way in avoiding conflict and inflicting suffering.

That is what a sense of shared humanity actually means.

:hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. Those are such wise words

but yet I still feel...guilty.

can't help it. I've felt that way ever since I read that Christ said his followers should not have any possessions. I would have made a great nun, except for that celibacy thing. Oh and that obediance part. And living with all those women might get on my nerves.

But I could do without so many possessions. I have spent much of the last years of my life giving them away.

[hippywife]

60. The difference is similar to the

responses of Peter and Judas in denying Christ. Both did but they handled it very differently. Judas felt guilt and was so inwardly focused with regard to how he would look to the world so he decided to take his own life. The opportunity for change ended there. Peter felt true remorse for denying Christ three times after he was taken into custody. He turned his remorse into something positive and productive.

It's the choice between taking the emotion that you feel and turning it inward or working to do something to change the thing you feel remorse for. Guilt is only debilitating...a stumbling block to change.

[Frustratedlady]

15. That's a big question,

My first concern was removing Saddam, his sons, et al., from the whole picture so those poor Iraqi people could know peace and democracy. We heard the horror stories of people losing their hands, of prisoners being chopped up in meat grinders, set on fire, etc. long before 911 - 10-12 years before. Then came the WMD...mushroom clouds...bits and pieces of information dribbling out each day. For me, it was a situation of not wanting to go in because I was afraid our troops would be hit with poison gases or face other horrible situations, but in the back of my mind was the voice that said, "Well, they are telling us about these WMDs, what AREN'T they telling us? If I was privy to the rest of the story, would I agree that invading was something that needed to be done?" I folded in favor of invading, because I believed they were only giving us part of the picture.

I honestly believe that once the insurgents know Bush is leaving, (which is how they would perceive it), then everything would settle down. They hate Bush and his cabal and as long as there is any hint that he is staying (new bases?) forever, there will be attacks.

One major mistake, IMHO, was not putting the Iraqi people to work immediately after the invasion. Before we leave, these poor people must be allowed to take over the contracts to rebuild their country. (Get Halliburton, KBR, etc. out of there.) These poor people have been sitting around, waiting for this fiasco to end so they can get on with their lives. They will take pride in what they build/accomplish and protect it from the insurgents. Right now, they have nothing invested in their country.

We went there to get rid of Saddam and his regime. His sons are gone, the trials will go forth and justice will be done. Our job is done! Bring our people home and to hell with Bush's ego.

[bloom]

46. BushCo never wanted the Iraqis to have pride

That has been clear since the beginning - when they guarded the Oil Ministry and allowed the historic treasures to be looted - and like you said - took the jobs for their own companies - and left many Iraqis unemployed.

Naomi Klein's article about this - sums it up well:

Baghdad Year Zero: Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neo-con utopia

by Naomi Klein > September 2004 > Harper's Magazine

It was only after I had been in Baghdad for a month that I found what I was looking for. I had traveled to Iraq a year after the war began, at the height of what should have been a construction boom, but after weeks of searching I had not seen a single piece of heavy machinery apart from tanks and humvees. Then I saw it: a construction crane. It was big and yellow and impressive, and when I caught a glimpse of it around a corner in a busy shopping district I thought that I was finally about to witness some of the reconstruction I had heard so much about. But as I got closer I noticed that the crane was not actually rebuilding anything—not one of the bombed-out government buildings that still lay in rubble all over the city, nor one of the many power lines that remained in twisted heaps even as the heat of summer was starting to bear down. No, the crane was hoisting a giant billboard to the top of a three-story building. SUNBULAH: HONEY 100% NATURAL, made in Saudi Arabia.

Seeing the sign, I couldn’t help but think about something Senator John McCain had said back in October. Iraq, he said, is “a huge pot of honey that’s attracting a lot of flies.” The flies McCain was referring to were the Halliburtons and Bechtels, as well as the venture capitalists who flocked to Iraq in the path cleared by Bradley Fighting Vehicles and laser-guided bombs. The honey that drew them was not just no-bid contracts and Iraq’s famed oil wealth but the myriad investment opportunities offered by a country that had just been cracked wide open after decades of being sealed off, first by the nationalist economic policies of Saddam Hussein, then by asphyxiating United Nations sanctions.

Looking at the honey billboard, I was also reminded of the most common explanation for what has gone wrong in Iraq, a complaint echoed by everyone from John Kerry to Pat Buchanan: Iraq is mired in blood and deprivation because George W. Bush didn’t have “a postwar plan.” The only problem with this theory is that it isn’t true. The Bush Administration did have a plan for what it would do after the war; put simply, it was to lay out as much honey as possible, then sit back and wait for the flies....

http://www.nologo.org/ (filed under "Dispatches")

[newspeak]

52. no, we went there

because Saddam had WMDs and had the capacity to attack America at any time. Yeah, that's right, anytime now--hmm, waiting, still waiting. Haven't we given OBL (if he's still alive) everything he's wanted? Less military in Saudi Arabia, removal of his hated enemy Saddam, and a significant increase in recruitment. And, the cherry on the sundae, more fear in the US and a decrease in civil liberties.

[izzybeans]

17. Of course they could care less about this war, its fighting in general

that they love.

They are voyeurs who scream bloody murder when their horse in the race falls short at the line. They'll never jockey the thing themself but the vicarious ego building that wars give them suckles them to no end.

[Kansas Wyatt]

20. Some Republicans got tongue tied trying to speak about Iraq, but...

Most of what came out was about how we could still win Vietnam.

Did they not learn anything from Vietnam, or do they think Iraq is Vietnam?

They mocked and ridiculed Senator Kennedy for saying it was another Vietnam, yet now they are speaking like it is Vietnam.

[Hyernel]

21. The Bush White House view is this...

As long as Halliburton and the other Bushco profiteers get to keep the money, they will see the Iraq debacle as a win, even if America has to lose "politically."

They didn't steal the White House to perform public service, they stole it so that they could use the governmental mechanism of the United States as an instrument of plunder. A way to do what they could not do as mere corporate weasels. (Start and endless war for profit.)

And the 2100 dead soldiers? Well, that's just the cost of doing business for Bushco. It's not like it's any of THEIR kids.

The priorities of neocon-style, robber-baron type republicans are to....

a.) Lower taxes on the wealthiest
b.) Create profit opportunities by starting wars for securing commodities (oil)
c.) Enhance profit opportunities by gutting the regulations that increase costs (environmental, tort, etc.)
d.) Maintain the marketing campaign that hides these facts from the American people

Public service, patriotism, defending the Constitution, love of country are not even on the radar with these assholes.

Hyernel

[ClayZ]

36. BINGO! Welcome to DU!

[newswolf56]

22. The sad and infuriating truth is that most Americans are as bigoted

as the Oklahomans described in post #7. Note in this context last April's Rasmussen poll demonstrating that 63 percent of all Americans believe the Bible is "literally true": that is, 63 percent of all American adults -- nearly two-thirds -- believe that woman is the cause of all evil; that nature is to be conquered and subdued; that witches and "abominations" (including lesbians and gays) are to be exterminated; that poverty and disability are divine punishments; and that (white) man was "made in the image of God" and therefore rules the world by divine mandate. This is why Bush is in the White House, why there are still dead in the ruins of New Orleans, why we are in Iraq, and why the ruination of the environment continues willy-nilly.

There are two kinds of opposition to recent American wars, whether in Iraq or Vietnam. These oppositions are either primary or secondary. Primary opposition is ideological opposition: pacifism, opposition to American imperialism, opposition to global capitalism, opposition based on recognition that the Iraq War is class warfare, a vital part of the global capitalism's long-range plan to impose a New Order -- theocratic, fascist and unspeakably tyrannical -- on the entire world. Secondary opposition is opposition generated by solely by discomfort: economic discomfort (skyrocketing prices), emotional discomfort (loss of loved ones), simple fear (as in the vast majority of opposition to the draft during the Vietnam War). As the Vietnam experience proves, opposition to a war becomes effective only when the secondary opposition becomes overwhelming; for further proof of the primary/secondary hypothesis, note the fact that the Gulf War was over so quickly no secondary opposition was ever allowed to develop.

Most of the new and burgeoning American opposition to the war in Iraq is secondary. It has nothing whatsoever to do with humanitarianism, opposition to imperialism or any other progressive value. Instead it is purely and simply outrage at the fact the war has raised fuel prices and is thereby raising prices across the board -- precisely, in this sense, like the secondary opposition to the Vietnam War. The fact the opposition is secondary explains how people can hold such divergent views: for example, support for the war when fuel prices are low, oppose it when the war means it now costs $60 to fill up the SUV.

Note again the polls immediately after Katrina: 80 percent of the population was enraged by fuel prices, but nearly 70 percent expressed indifference to atrocity of New Orleans, denying that any racism was involved in the government's blatantly genocidal refusal to provide adequate assistance. To expect a people who cannot even empathize with American blacks to be able to empathize with Iraqi civilians is like expecting a nest of hornets to empathize with someone it has stung to death. Indeed it is patently absurd to expect ANY sort of progressive response from a population in which nearly two-thirds believe the Bible to be literally true.

Then why keep fighting? Not because we are likely to win -- in fact the more I discover about the real attitudes of America, the more I believe a progressive victory is so impossible as to require a genuine miracle -- all the more so because in the last 40 years, the public has become not only steadily more reactionary (note the election results) but steadily more hatefully so: the American hatred of minorities (whether ethnic, sexual or otherwise) burns with an agitated intensity I have never before seen, not even amongst the die-hard segregationists of the old South. Which is precisely why our own humanity -- our own karma if you will -- demands we keep on fighting no matter how overwhelming the odds.

[bloom]

47. Unless there are more literal believers than there used to be

which is possible...

It's closer to a third who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible - the entire thing.

"A Gallup poll last June (1999) suggested that as many as one-third of Americans believe, "The Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word."


http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/evol4.htm


Though it's entirely possible that 2/3s as you suggested - believe a lot of it.

(I agree with your general assessment - I just don't want people thinking that Americans in general are more hopeless than they/we are :) ).

[newswolf56]

61. Unfortunately America is in the midst of a Fundamentalist revival,

no doubt fueled by the explosive combination of George-Bush-inspired homophobic hatred, the ever-more-overt racism of the New Order (as demonstrated by the aftermath of Katrina), and ever-worsening economic fear (which in America always turns fascist/fundamentalist unless there's an FDR to provide an alternative). The poll I cited was conducted last spring by Rasmussen -- one of several recent polls that have tracked the new and terrifying growth of Christian Fundamentalism in the U.S. The Rasmussen poll is linked here:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Bible.htm

I don't remember the other polls but I do remember they all support the Rasmussen result. As to why the corporate oligarchy is funding this revival, remember that religion is the opiate (and secret policeman) by which capitalism controls the masses. Here is an enlightening and disturbing Katha Pollitt essay on the subject:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051003/pollitt

Thus in truth America is probably even more reactionary than we think.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. If protecting Iraqis is irrelevant, why is killing them important? n/t

[Straight Shooter]

25. I am especially amused by those who insist that Iraqis deserve "freedom"

and yet they'll turn around and call Iraqis "ragheads" in the next breath.

Seriously, no, I'm not amused at all. I'm nauseated by the rampant Kool-Aid overdose in America.

[sofa king]

26. I care more about the Iraqi people now than I ever did.

I'll be perfectly honest and say that I don't care much for the Islamic world, which I view as hopelessly mired in hyperconservative religious gobbledygook.

Now, however, we have a real problem on our hands. We created this problem, and I believe that it is our duty to provide some sort of solution. It is both a humanitarian and a philosophical duty.

We will never be forgiven for starting this conflict. We will also never be forgiven if we leave Iraq in the state it is in today. So we must find a way to atone, a way which is acceptable to the Iraqis, to Iraq's neighbors, and to the world at large.

A good start would be putting George W. Bush in prison.

[jbnow]

32. Funny though

we attacked a country that was NOT "mired in hyperconservative religious gobbledygook" and women were free to get higher education and professional employment, not wearing Islamic garb.
We are now in a country that is getting "mired in hyperconservative religious gobbledygook" which will set women way back...not to mention civil war where my allah is bigger then your allah...

because our god told us to go do that.

I agree we owe them but I don't know what. I know what you mean about leaving them in this state but we also make it worse being there. Oddly they don't like that we enter their homes at gun points, bomb their villages, imprison and torture them and kill them and so on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. It is vientam all over again

we stepped into that time machine and it is '73 all over again... they never dealt well with Vietnam, if at all... so they cannot deal with this

[Beam Me Up]

29. American's global image and selfimage has been badly damaged by Bush

and the 'neo-imperialists'. How can the United States best save face in the eyes of the world and in terms of its own self image? Simple: Hold the bastards responsible for this debacle accountable. That means, the restoration of law and order within our own government--which has been acting reclessly outside civlized standards of behavior for some time now.

The whole world is still watching.

[Kolesar]

44. Soldiers are dying so bush* can save face. This is insufferable...eom

[bloom]

30. It's my impression

that that is what is going on. That for most Americans who want the war to continue - that it is about humiliating people in the Middle East - from whatever country (besides Israel) - and they don't care to know that much about them.

It's why I think they don't care that there is torture and I even wonder if the "leak" from the Republicans about the CIA torture places in Europe was a mistake. If the idea is to humiliate others "over there" - so that "we" are not humiliated over here - then that is exactly what the war supporters want to see.

The US leaving before the mission is seen to be finished - whatever "finished" means - is the last thing that they could tolerate - as it would mean humiliation for "us" - victory for "them".

Everything that seems abhorrent to me/us - apparently seems perfectly acceptable to these people.

[ClayZ]

37. It is the Barbara bu$h mentality, "Why should I bother my beautiful

mind with Body Counts?" said she.

It is almost impossible for me, as a mother and grandmother, to be able to accept that another woman could think or feel that way. Those are Iraqi CHILDREN we bombed, remember the one boy, after Shock and Awe, that had two legs and an arm blown off? Those are Iraqi sisters and brothers and mothers and fathers. I screamed bloody murder for weeks. I forced myself to look at the bloody pictures. I could HEAR that little girl scream, whose parents were blown up in the front seat of her car. Those are just a few of the stories that got through. There are one hundred thousand more stories. Lives of beautiful people, now dead and thousands more wounded. How the fuck dare we do that. SHAME on the USA.

I CARE ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE! I care enough to want the US bombs and tanks and bullets and White Phosphorus OUT OF THERE!

Knock the imaginary lines down that our governments draw on this planet. IT IS ONE WORLD. We are all rushing through space together.

I may not want to sit by BARBARA bu$h, but I would not drop a bomb on her head! I would like to read Cindy Sheehan's letter to her in face to face in front of the nation! I would like to read it over and over until she understands it.

If the neo-cons have really built holding pens for us ... we just might have to put the Neo-Cons in them. And teach them to be KIND!

I managed to teach my two children and two stepchildren to be KIND. They in turn have taught their children to be KIND. Why can't the rest of the world do that much?

I should go to bed!

[OneGrassRoot]

39. Freeper 38-year-old sister said typical repug meme.............

yesterday. "The Iraqis are better off....* did the right thing to remove Saddam and try to bring democracy there."

I responded, "Don't give me that crap. You don't give a DAMN about the Iraqis or any non-Caucasian American, for that matter."

She laughed and agreed.

My whole point in the conversation was that it's appalling to call anyone who questions this administration unpatriotic and cowardly. It's PATRIOTIC to question our government employees, ESPECIALLY in a time of war.

She said something to the effect that people are afraid of another Vietnam - NOT the war/pull-out aspect, but how the troops were treated on return.

That stunned me. And, as I've told her, I have not heard ONE person malign our troops...it's been nothing but praise for THEIR efforts and heroism. In fact, that was the case with the first Gulf War. Americans really learned their lesson about that and showed this at the time of that war.

For this fairly young person to be stuck in the mindset that if you criticize this war it equates to treating the troops as they were (supposedly) treated upon returning from Vietnam is mind-boggling to me.

I say supposedly, because I don't know if it happened as much as it was reported. I know there have been threads here previously about that....as to whether or not such horrible things as spitting on our troops occurred.

[Catchawave]

40. The troops should have come home the day

Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" ? Otherwise, he needs to declare what this "noble cause" is and why we're still there.


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1030-06.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090100786.html

[liberalpress]

41. Good War vs Bad War

Good War: Iraqi people, fed up with bloodthirsty dictator, attempt to overthrow him and call on the countries of the world for help in their attempt at self-rule.


Bad War: One country decides they have had enough of another country's bloodthirsty dictator, and unilaterally decide to overthrow him for the second country's "own good."


Many support a good war.


Few support a bad one.

[DanCa]

43. Your right of course

I really loathe these hypocrites and that's probably why that they are not enlisting in the service in droves. Now I believe that a country has a right to self govern and that we should have not intervened without un support. But lets be adults and say we'd rather believe in the lie that were bringing freedom to iraq than the truth chimpco lied to us. The latter i think is harder to own up to for them.

[No Exit]

45. Yes, I get that feeling, to an extent.

'That if from the start Bush had said he wanted to invade Iraq to bring democracy, the majority of American's would have said, "Screw that - the Iraqi people don't mean that much to me to sacrifice American lives for their democracy."'

The above is the part which I think expresses the true feelings of all sorts of people of all parties.

But unfortunately, now that WE have helped to cause suffering to innocent Iraqis, I think most people would agree that we owe them something.

BUT just b/c we owe them something, doesn't mean that the way to pay this debt is to leave our troops there. Quite the opposite. I am one of those who thinks that the best thing we can do for Iraqis right now is to get the hell out of there. It's also the best thing we can do for our troops.

So we "lose a war"? Okay, we just have to live with that. (Thanks, Bush/Cheney.) Nobody can win all the time.

[RazzleDazzle]

49. We have to live with it esp. since it wasn't a just war to begin with

It was a mistake, an arrogant, imperialistic mistake. Better to end the mistake as quickly as possible than extend it for vanity reasons.

[Mme. Defarge]

54. This brings up another question I have

about Republicans in general. To what extent is all of this simply "a team thing." I think that element exists on both sides, but in the case of Republican, it is the dominant motivation. Right or wrong, they will support the team -- hence the win at ALL costs mentality.

[Festivito]

56. Chickhawk war ego, American war ego. Can't leave unless we say "win."

Inhumanity is only inhumanity if being inhuman is not normal. We, through RepubliCONs, have raised inhumanity beyond normal into a PR art form.

ANSWER: If the Iraq war were sold as democracy building, US would have said Korea is worse, not Iraq. Address fear of losing our democracy before building someone elses democracy.

[OnionPatch]

57. Yes!!! I always thought that!!!

Their ego is the driving factor in their whole mental-illness. (I think being extremely right-wing is a sort of mental illness ;)) It's evidence in the fact that they hate New Yorkers (in general) but were so angry when 9-11 happened. It wasn't the individual New Yorkers they cared about, it was that someone attacked AMERICA, and that's a huge blow to their ego. There HAD to be revenge! And now if we don't "win" the war in Iraq, our revenge will not be had! (The revenge is so important that they didn't even care when it was switched from Al Qaeda to Iraq. Someone middle-eastern had to pay.)

You can see the ego factor in their "Power of Pride" stickers, the flags everywhere, their pugalistic stance on foreign policy and anything they perceive as "soft" (gays, the French) etc.

You see this mentality sometimes in the brothers or husbands of rape victims: They are more concerned about getting revenge with the rapist than helping their sister/wife get through the crisis.

Yes, IMO, it's all an oversized ego thing that is very much a characteristic of right-wing mentality. Their feelings about Iraqis, innocent or not, are irrelevent.

[I Have A Dream]

59. I have thought exactly the same thing. It really p*sses me off...

that the right has been using the "bringing democracy to Iraq" argument when it's the exact opposite of their motives. Let me rephrase this -- I think that they DO want to bring "democracy" to Iraq so that they feel that the area will be more "controllable" by them, but I don't think that they give a rat's *ss about the Iraqi people or their well-being.