Angels Were Watching Over Our Troops Last Night!

[goclark]

We have been praying for a moderate Democrat to step up to the plate and expose the truth about Iraq.

That happened!

We have been praying for the Majority to "allow" a debate on Iraq in the Congress.

That happened!

We have been praying that a Moderate force in the Democratic Party would be able to push/pull the other Moderates (like Harold Ford) to realize that they have to take a stronger stand.

That not only happened, Ford and all the other Democrats, were UNITED by the debate and all but 3(and Angel Cynthia McKinny was one of 3-that was a good thing IMO) stood together.

In fact, I wish I had the video so I could see Ford jump across that aisle when that Scum Woman smeared Murtha!:bounce:

My grandma taught me that the Moral of that story is, "God Don't Like Ugly."

If the Republicans had not felt the pressure from the Left they would NEVER have allowed the debate and that Swift Boat Trick last night.:bounce:

Now the debate goes on and I believe that our troops will come home just like Muerta said they should.

We have been praying that by some magical way, someone or something would get our troops out of there and BRING THEM HOME.

An O8) named Cindy was there for OUR TROOPS.

Last night,an O8) with two purple hearts, was there for OUR TROOPS.
He was joined by a lot of Democratic, and perhaps a few more than we realize, Republican Angels that had been sitting on their wings.

Let the TROOPS START MARCHING HOME!



O8) :bounce:

[MarvinBarns]

1. Let the Troops Vote

The time has come to let troops vote. Since they are the ones fighting and dying we should let them vote to stay or leave immediately

[goclark]

4. Wouldn't that be wonderful!

I wish they could take a silent vote over the internet so we could really see how they feel.

I bet it would be at least 90% want to come home.

[B Calm]

36. Yes! Let the military vote on Iraq!! Despite the right-wing spin,

I never been afraid to count the military votes..

[goclark]

37. Is there a military website

that the soldier's like to visit?

I wish someone had a place where they could answer a simply question like the polls that the MSM has on their websites.

I really want to know what the soldiers really feel.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. hell, lets take that one step further-

lets 'go back' to the way the original founders intended it to be- EVERYONE vote- no more electoral college- every single voice having EQUAL weight-
Screw the congress, and the house- How many reps. actually vote the way the people 'who elect them' want them to? HONESTLY???- If we have become too big a country to have every voice equally heard, then we have become too big a country.

Why should we encourage the other nations to make every citizens vote count, when ours don't??? Hypocrisy at it's finest once again.-

Let those who want to wage war, be the ones to actually do the fighting- then we'll see how eager to spread 'democracy' around the world 'we' REALLY are.

Sorry, I know this is off-topic- I agree, it's about time people started vocally and forcefully questioning the insanity-

[goclark]

19. You are not off topic at all, your words were right on the money!!

Bravo!

It is so ironic to me that for America to be the "leader of the Free world" we have a lot of work to do.

Every time that I see Bush talking about giving Iraq the right to vote, I want to puke.

I think you should start your own thread on this topic because it is something that needs discussion.

I have often wondered why the Democrats don't throw it up in the Chimp's face about the FRAUD in 2000 and 2004 at the so called "Election."

[Ladyhawk]

34. There are problems with a straight democracy, but I see where you're

coming from. The ones who want war the most are the ones sacrificing the least. In fact, they're reaping the benefits. That's why they wanted war in the first place, no?

[goclark]

43. They are not doing one bit of suffering

except when they have to go to the trouble to sign the deposit slip for their Stock Broker.

[mopinko]

2. oh please

god has no place in this shit, even if s/he does exist. stop that.

[BurtWorm]

3. rAmen!

:applause:

[goclark]

5. Leave God out of it and put in any other word

you want.... Magic, thinking, whatever.

The reference was not about preaching Christianity!

It was about our thoughts.

[rodeodance]

6. angels can be anything you want them to be--fairy dust, littel goddesses

gods ect.

let your imagination run wild.
i am thankful the angels are here.

[goclark]

7. I'm with you rodeodance ~

[BurtWorm]

10. How about rational human beings?

Like John Murtha.

[goclark]

11. Sounds RATIONAL to me :)

[Bluerthanblue]

12. how about

letting others feel free to speak as they do without being silenced?
The OP wasn't asking you to do anything-
They were expressing their relief that they saw a glimmer of hope-
Regardless of what their version of how that hope manifested itself-

Tolerance is a two way street. Don't like the OP perspective? thats absolutely fine- No one is asking you to adopt it- but don't try to take it away from them either - OK?

No on is trying to push anyones perspective on anyone here- unless you tell them they can speak their 'truth' because you don't hold their same belief system- Sometimes silence is golden.

peace-

[ncgrits]

26. well said. . . .

sometimes I come away from here feeling like we are nearly as closed-minded as the right. I wish everyone could cut everyone else just a little slack. The original post used a metaphor. If I don't like it, I can just choose one I _do_ like. Or move on. . . .

I'm striving for as much tolerance of EVERYBODY (Republicans included) as I can muster without compromising my core beliefs. Seems like that's an important component of being "liberal." And ever since 2000 it's been harder and harder to be generous of spirit.

Anyway. My two cents from a long-time lurker, infrequent poster.

[goclark]

31. A compassionate welcome to DU ncgrits !

Your words were so beautifully put together.

Sometimes I wonder "where is the slack" too.

I refuse to let George Bush take me to his level.

[mopinko]

13. really

magical thinking is what created this mess. the sooner humanity outgrows it's need for a big daddy or mommy, the better.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. I love you Mo-

and i understand you- but without hope- without 'magical thinking'- many of us would be dead-

If i only believed what 'rational' thought would allow- i'd kill myself,- (been there more than once, and should not be HERE, but for 'magical intervention')

Without hope- without believing 'against all odds' that something good can actually still happen in this fucked up mess of a world, why do any of us bother?

( "look Toto, I think we're back in Kansas"- but my ruby slippers can always carry me home, if i need them to.-)

[JNelson6563]

41. Hope doesn't mean magical thinking

Hope can surely be based on rational thinking. One can rationally hope against all odds by working against those odds.

Emotion can be what drives us, emotion based thinking can be what drives us over the edge. Even us unbelievers can believe there is good in the world since it is up to us as individuals to create it.

I too by all rights shouldn't be here but somehow the basest and strongest of instinct overcame and here I am. No magical thinking and yet strong will to live and thrive.

Julie

[Bluerthanblue]

42. magical thinking

is a term used by mental health professionals to denote 'irrational thought'-
You call your 'magic' the "will to survive"- or "instinct"- neither one can be proven or quantified- How does one explain things that happen that are completely un-explainable- (those things DO happen, albiet rarely)-

"You may say I'm a dreamer- but I'm not the only one- I hope some day you'll join us, then the world will live as one"- not to say you have to abide by 'my rules' just don't tell me i can't believe in what you can't see, or grasp- and i won't shove my hope down your throat.

We have not reached the zenith of life- there is much we have yet to discover- learn- experience and explore- if we don't leave room for what some would call 'fantasy'- we would have doomed ourselves to carrying our women around by the hair, using clubs to kill our food, and living in caves....

Instinct would have me hit back when someone hits me- have me kill your child, because you killed mine- Progress, and faith, and hope tells me, that if i fight the compulsion to hurt back as hard or harder, then maybe, others will look and see that instead of two dead kids, there is one- and that we can learn to control our base- selfish instincts, and use our words, and our lives to help make a better tomorrow.

i need to shut up-

[Ladyhawk]

35. Normally I'm for letting people believe what they want, but

fundamentalism was a HUGE contributor to this mess. Magical thinking was part of what got us into this mess. People looking to some magical being outside themselves got us into this mess.

To the poster below, let me say that a loss of faith IS very painful, but so is much of growing up. A loss of faith can be the worst feeling in the world. I've been there. I know. BUT, it doesn't mean an end to hope. It just means that hope must be focused elsewhere: belief in oneself, for example. I've come to realize that the faith I put in a higher being can be placed on my own two shoulders. I'm still working on that, BTW. Luckily, I also realize I'm a finite being with limitations, so I don't, say, invade another country because I think I'm omnipotent.

To those who still have faith in something beyond yourselves, that is your choice, but remember that carried to an extreme, it has caused more suffering than anything else in history. How do you plan to curtail that in your fellow believers? BEWARE of that which you want to believe.

"Indeed I am an avowed atheist. Maybe more so now than ever. You never hear about meta-righteous militant monsters attacking anyone in the name of, you know, skepticism." -Mark Morford

[goclark]

38. You certainly have a right to your beliefs

One of the reasons that I support the Democratic party is so that people of all beliefs have a right to them.

One of the other reasons that I belong to the Democratic party is that I want to believe that they are able to see all sides of an issue and that they are not rigid in their ability to be aware of the differences in others.


I think of the Democratic Party has having their eyes wide open.

I think of the Republican Party as having its eyes wide shut.

[Mutley]

39. Not all Christians are fundamentalists.

I know Christian fundamentalists, and then I know Christians -- people who actually want to follow the teachings of Jesus and not just line their pockets or rule the world or tell everyone around them how they should live their lives. There are a lot of Christians on DU, and in the Democratic Party as well. Would you call them fundamentalists?

[Bluerthanblue]

40. hope i'm

right in thinkin you meant me Ladyhawk- when you said 'poster below'-

I don't want this to turn into a 'bluer' thread- suffice it to say i understand more about this than i want to express.

Fundamentalism isn't something only applicable to religion, or god- it can be applied to 'self' and 'human ability' and 'logic' and 'science' too- And while what we are presently dealing with in Iraq has without question been fueled and twisted to represent some kind of 'godly' mission- what it is at heart, is selfish, fear-based, PEOPLE who believe they not only have the 'right' but the 'might' to do whatever they want- and then couch it in 'pretty' clothing or robes.

I disagree that losing faith is part of 'growing up'- and losing faith DOES mean losing hope. We as a people will never progress- (move forward- change old established entrenched beliefs) unless we retain a measure of faith.
Something that doesn't 'seem' logical, or likely, or even plausible- something people laugh at us for even giving voice to- but which we hold close, refusing to relinquish or abandon- against all odds, against reason - with that 'childlike innocence' saying "I don't know why- but I STILL believe"- is the 'logic' of some of the greatest minds, and lives that ever lived among us- Who would have thought Gandhi could have ever really have 'logically' made any difference in the world? Who called Leonardo Da Vinci insane? Martin Luther King Jr. believed in something he couldn't see- he couldn't prove- he had no reason to think would ever come to fruition, (and still hasn't fully) but someday, some-how will. Not through 'his' single efforts- but by sharing his hope, his vision for something better with others, and by people working together in community- people of all 'faiths' and of no religious affiliation- black, white, rich, poor, southern, northern, people with no other connection other than they 'believed'- and wanted better for all.

Alone, i can do very little- having 'in myself' took me places i wish i'd never gone- but the power of community, working TOGETHER not for 'self'- but for the good of all- is sometimes quite 'magical'-

Although Andy Stephenson's life didn't end the way i so wished, prayed, and hoped it would, and although much was done by people to destroy the 'hope' the 'good' and 'the faith' this community here at DU came together with- it was not in 'vain'- It was not a waste.

It was, from my perspective a demonstration of the power of community- a small island of hope and support, despite being attacked in all sorts of ways- a proof, that there is still a force in this world, which when brought together for good, can and does do the unlikely- even against all odds.

sorry- i'm really needing to remind myself this world has value- that despite how everything appears, all is NOT lost- and hope is not just a word that we feed on so that death can harvest our carcass.

life's been particularly challenging- as i know it is for so many of us- i need to fly- broken winged birds sing songs of unending sorrow....

i should go have myself a good long quiet time now-
sorry for the rant Ladyhawk- i mean no offense. I thank you for your point of view.

[Clark2008]

16. Oh, please.

Most of the troops believe in God - take a poll.

Maybe you don't and that's fine, but don't tell others how to believe and we won't tell you.

GoClark - this was a nice post. I'm sorry someone decided to anti-preach to you.

[afdip]

8. his name is murtha, not muerta . . . .

[goclark]

15. Thanks for the correction

Sometimes my computer keys don't reinforce what my beautiful mind wants to enter.

[Binka]

22. Muerta Means DEAD In Spanish

Freaky.

[JNelson6563]

14. Skip the magical thinking

Keep applying political pressure.

Give me a pair of working hands over a thousand pairs of praying hands any day.

Julie

[Clark2008]

17. I can do both.

I'm tired of the anti-Christian rhetoric on this board.

Most Christians AREN'T fundies.

[Roland99]

20. The good Christians don't wear it on their sleeve either.

Oh well...I'll leave my comments there. The rest belong in the Religion/Theology forum.


But, I agree with the sentimant that leaving religion out of the debate is the proper thing to do.

[mopinko]

21. just for the record

christian has nothing to do with it. i am against all religion. at best it is a waste, at worst, it is the rationale for crimes against humanity every fucking day somewhere on this planet.
i repeat, the sooner humanity outgrows it's need for a big daddy or mommy the sooner we will have peace on this planet for every person.

[Clark2008]

29. Good... be against all religion

but don't slam someone for a heart-felt post.
The sooner YOU outgrow your need to force your beliefs on the rest of us, we will have peace on this board.

[Catrina]

24. Yes, how sad

Someone writes something from their heart and it can't just be accepted for what it is.

Thanks to the OP for a beautiful post ~ I hope this is the beginning of the end of the war ~

[goclark]

25. Catrina thank you ~ sometimes I wonder

Sometimes I visit DU and wonder if I am on the wrong website.

Sometimes I wonder if we have allowed George Bush to control our compassion button.

Sometimes the anger here, over even the smallest thing,is surprising and disappointing.

I refuse to let George Bush and his evil ways control my ability to be civil to people that I believe have my basic political views.

Sometimes I wonder.

[ncgrits]

27. I agree and understand, goclark. . . .

See my post 26, above. I feel much the same way.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. i love the way

i see a difference in this interchange- one not of "either you believe as i do, or you are a jerk"- and those of us who have been told that feeling very ... vunerable.... and ..... wary-

No preaching is being done here- what i hear, and applaud, and support is honest to goodness freedom to speak one's heart- and not be condemned for it- or to condemn others for not embracing it- that isn't too much to ask- and it isn't too much to give-
There is room for all in this 'big tent'- and we CAN be the change we wish to see in the world, without crushing those who don't share our perspective. In my opinion, only those who are unsure, or uncomfortable with their own stand, feel the need to push others off their own personal piece of ground. I'm not threatened by those who oppose my perspective- but i'll no longer allow them to silence me- even if it means standing on slippery rocks in a strong current.

We can learn alot from each other- even when we don't agree. Especially when we don't agree.

Thanks for renewing hope.

[goclark]

32. Awesome statement Bluerthanblue,simply awesome!

"I'm not threatened by those who oppose my perspective- but i'll no longer allow them to silence me- even if it means standing on slippery rocks in a strong current."

Sometimes the rocks get mighty slippery. Even when you are on a beach that you believe to be friendly.

When I posted this thread,in no way did I believe that it would go in this direction.

My thoughts were expressing my hope that the events in the Congress last night were good for our Party.

But, many times we find gems, like your posts and others, that give us strength to face a new day and a new battle with THE REAL ENEMY, the Neocons that have taken over the United States of America.

[goclark]

23. These hands have been working everyday

I worked the polls in Los Angeles for 12 hours to put Arnold in his place.

I understand WORKING for what I believe in.

I'm not hardly trying to take anyone to church here, I don't go myself.

Perhaps you missed the point of my message.

My post is about the WORK that Cindy and others are doing everyday to get us out of this mess in Iraq.

Let's WORK for PEACE

[Bluerthanblue]

28. if rational thought, or experience- if logic

was all we allowed ourselves to live on- we'd all starve- and die in despair.

How can we fight against this machine this mess, without HOPE? without hanging onto the desire that our actions, our efforts, our work can do what 'logic' would say cannot be done?

It takes effort to hold onto hope in this world,- it takes work to keep hope alive- believing isn't sitting back and waiting for change-

Rational minds would say "give it up"- "you are screwed"- "it's over" "hold fast to hope" in whatever form that embodies for you- And sip from it's cup when despair or 'logic' threaten to tell you to give up- because reason and logic on their own, are cold, cruel masters- devoid of emotion, and "life". What would life be without emotions? existence for the sake of existence- ?? devoid of joy, sorrow, love, anger, compassion etc?-

Living in community is a rich, painful, wonderful, awful experience. And living means more than just existing-

I enjoyed your post- and even as a former fundie- (worse than an ex smoker) i was not in the least offended, or annoyed.-
Thank you for reminding us all is not lost- UNLESS, we give up hope.

[goclark]

33. You made my day Bluerthanblue! nt

Keep hope alive!