It's the Iraqi Civil War, now. And, 80 % of Iraqi's want us to leave.

[understandinglife]

Now that is simple enough for anyone to grok.

Just start calling it what it is -- The Iraqi Civil War

And, point everyone to the polls in Iraq showing that 80 % of the Iraqi folk want us to leave.

We have no legislation that authorizes our troops to participate in The Iraqi Civil War, so no one is doing anything unpatriotic by helping extricate our troops from The Iraqi Civil War, quickly.

In fact, a truly bipartisan resolution supporting and saving our troops from harms-way in The Iraqi Civil War should be something that every Congressperson, in both houses, could support. And, after today, would be eager to support given that more than 80 % of their constituents want our troops out in six months (or less).

Give it some thought and let's discuss this simple and truthful meme and resultant strategy.


Peace.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Yes

We're supposed to be giving them democracy and they are voicing so they should be heard too.

[understandinglife]

2. Precisely. The majority of Iraq citizens have spoken and they say - OUT.

We need to oblige them and leave them to solve THEIR Civil War.


Peace.

[Erika]

4. Iraqis can only have a W approved voice

The imperialistic W administration knows what is best for them.

[Aimah]

5. The problem is that Bush wants control not democracy.

Bush Administration doesn't care about democracy. They'll take whatever government that will make sure their plan is in order. The governments most favorable to this are dictatorships. "Democracy" is just used to scare middle eastern countries.

[McCamy Taylor]

3. I've been calling it Civil War for a long time. Has the press started?

[me b zola]

10. Last week on CNN Gen. McCaffrey called it a civil war!

And I said, well damn, there it is. Cats out of the bag.

[understandinglife]

15. Yes, and this August, 2005, DemocracyNow interview is interesting:

Our guest today writes that civil war has already begun in Iraq. He has the center spread in the current issue of the paper called, "Bush’s Exit Plan: Civil War." He says, "With the war stalemated, repeated deployments wearing down morale of U.S. troops and too few new recruits to maintain force levels, the Bush administration may be deliberately provoking civil war as its “exit strategy.” The goal is not so much to exit Iraq, but leave behind a skeletal military force that would maintain the network of permanent bases under construction throughout Iraq while maintaining access to massive oil deposits in the North and South. Breaking Iraq into a series of mini-states, a strategy being pushed by some White House allies in the media, is seen as one way to ensure these goals."

Arun Gupta, Editor with the New York Independent newspaper of the New York Independent Media Center.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/03/1419259

Peace.

[AntiFascist]

23. This is a microcosm of the neocon strategy in the ME overall....

maintaining a climate of war so that we can move military forces in and take over.

Look at what's being started in Libya:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x173741

[gordianot]

6. That's been my problem with this entire mess.

What do you call this war?

Who are the insurgents? Who is the enemy? What were the goals? What was accomplished on that aircraft carrier.

And after tonight, I want to know how fighting them over there is keeping us from fighting them over here? Just who are "them".

I guess I am just too concrete.

Maybe it should be the "Bush Iraqi Civil War".

[calzone]

7. It's been this way for a year now...

And I bring up this point with every war supporter I debate, because it's a key issue. The vast majority of the ppl we're supposed to be helping want us out of their country. They don't like us, they don't trust us. It's their opinion that counts...not ours, despite the fact that the majority of Americans in every single poll want us to end this war and bring the troops home. We went in without their approval or invitation, now we've stayed without their approval.
The desires of the Iraqi ppl are paramount, they are the ones who's country we are occupying. If we occupy it against their will then the nature of the occupation takes on a specific definition that's quite different from the picture painted by the U.S. administration.
I really don't see this logic as being vulnerable to legitimate contradiction.
I'm not overly impressed with the dem politicians coming out now and criticizing the war and calling for troop withdrawal and an end timetable, they should've spoke up before the republicans and the admins popularity went south. They could've saved some lives by starting the row earlier. I trust only the few that've opposed this war from the start. I wasn't fooled by the admins spin of the case for war, the WMD and terrorist connections, and I'm no Rhodes scholar, so the protestations of the dems that they were misled leaves me crinkling my nose.
No matter what, we won't be able to bring the troops home right away, logistically it's going to take months, but of course the earlier we start the faster we finish. The Iraqis are quite good at security, I doubt there'll be a civil war and upsurge of violence after we leave...there'll be some violent power struggles IMO, but they'll be brief and decisive, then the Iraqis will govern themselves. The internecine animosity between the Shiites and Sunnis and to a lesser degree the Kurds is overblown from what I've read from Iraqi bloggers. What happens to the govt. cronies we installed doesn't concern me...they made their beds, they can sleep in them.
We certainly don't have to worry about Saddam and his henchmen escaping justice after we depart.
I'm happy the pendulum has started to swing back and I may not have to go back to Wash DC next yr. but it's already been far too long with too much damage to us & them for me to take any satisfaction in the direction of the support for the war. There's alot of blood on the pavement from this road rage accident that may not wash off in a thousand rainstorms. At least we can begin to remove the vehicles from the road so more cars don't pile up and crash in the fog.

[newyawker99]

19. Hi calzone!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[calzone]

21. Hi newyalker!

Thanks for the hospitality. I snatched a drink off the tray as the host went by. "clink"... This is a cool apartment, did you see that original John Lennon sketch?

[BikeWriter]

8. Recommended

[Historic NY]

9. Its been that way for some time now.......

the Americans have become the enemy, the occupiers, the source of anger. The Iraq people have now channeled their anger against us. Now is the time for the US to pull back, step aside and see just how this experiment develops.

[Moloch]

11. Where do you get the 80% figure?

It would fit in nicely with my next newspaper column.

[understandinglife]

14. Cited by Rep Murtha in his speech before Congress yesterday...

.... evening and I've read it elsewhere. Congressman Murtha, in his speech Friday evening repeated what he had said on Thursday, specifically:

...over 80 percent of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition forces, and about 45 percent of Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified.

Full transcript:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/17/politics/17text-murtha.html?pagewanted=all

In fact, as early as April, 2004:

...and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll.

<clip>

But while they acknowledge benefits from dumping Saddam a year ago, Iraqis no longer see the presence of the American-led military as a plus. Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers."

That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included. The negative characterization is just as high among the Shiite Muslims who were oppressed for decades by Saddam as it is among the Sunni Muslims who embraced him.

Link:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

I hope this is helpful and apologize for not having cited these resources in my OP.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

17. And, from the text of Murtha's resolution:

RESOLUTION
Whereas Congress and the American People have not been shown clear, measurable progress toward establishment of stable and improving security in Iraq or of a stable and improving economy in Iraq, both of which are essential to "promote the emergence of a democratic government";

Whereas additional stabilization in Iraq by U, S. military forces cannot be achieved without the deployment of hundreds of thousands of additional U S. troops, which in turn cannot be achieved without a military draft;

Whereas more than $277 billion has been appropriated by the United States Congress to prosecute U.S. military action in Iraq and Afghanistan;

Whereas, as of the drafting of this resolution, 2,079 U.S. troops have been killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom;

Whereas U.S. forces have become the target of the insurgency,

Whereas, according to recent polls, over 80% of the Iraqi people want U.S. forces out of Iraq;

Whereas polls also indicate that 45% of the Iraqi people feel that the attacks on U.S. forces are justified;

Whereas, due to the foregoing, Congress finds it evident that continuing U.S. military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the people of Iraq, or the Persian Gulf Region, which were cited in Public Law 107-243 as justification for undertaking such action;

Therefore be it

1) Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in

2) Congress assembled,

3) That:

4) Section 1. The deployment of United States forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is

5) hereby terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable

6) date.

7) Section 2. A quick-reaction U.S. force and an over-the-horizon presence of U.S Marines

8) shall be deployed in the region.

9) Section 3 The United States of America shall pursue security and stability in Iraq

10) through diplomacy.

Peace.

[fishnfla]

12. If it is a Civil War, and if the majority wants us to leave....

Who then over there wants us to stay? Point being: our presence serves a purpose for one, both, or all sides in a civil war, from the combatants point of view. As was pointed out in a piece in Newsweek magazine, the mullahs in Iran are in no hurry to see us go. We are doing their dirty work aginst their former enemy, nearly scot-free for them.

Perhaps The Iraqi public who are against our presence and the American public who are starting to turn against our involvement are both way ahead of the politicians on this one. The warmongers and people who think problems are only solved by bloodshed are dragging their heels, and the conflict is prolonged and the war only escalates.

Its the same sad song of armed conflict throughout history, IMO.

[AntiFascist]

13. This meme cannot be stressed enough....

and it can be played in a variety of ways. If we really care about the democratic will of the Iraqi people then we will start moving out. The only ones who really want us to stay are some of the profiteers, who are assured of a reward, and the extremists, who need us there to fight against. If we really support the troops then we will take them out of a situation where we have now become the enemy which the country we have invaded is united against.

The neocons will argue that if we begin to cut out then it will embolden the extremists, who will then become more agressive, and the system may revert to some form of theocracy or desintegrate altogether. The problem in all of this is the use of propaganda, namely via Al Jazeera, which the Republicans love to site in demonstrating when the terrorists are taking the upper hand. My theory is that the neocons, the Islamic extremists, and Al Jazeera are all cooperating to help promote WAR. This plays right into the Republican leadership's desire to prove that we are doing the right thing and don't need to change course.

[understandinglife]

16. Larry Johnson: "A civil war is already underway."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5402895


Peace.

[buddysmellgood]

18. It's a Today/CNN/Gallop poll. More than 3,000 Iraqis surveyed. WHY would

anyone want their son, daughter, neighbor, friend to risk their life for people who don't want us in their country?

[Marleyb]

20. Murtha's info comes from secret British poll that was leaked....

The survey was conducted by an Iraqi university research team that, for security reasons, was not told the data it compiled would be used by coalition forces. It reveals:

• Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;

• 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops;

• less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;

• 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;

• 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;

• 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.

The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/23/ixworld.html

This pretty much debunks every argument the republicans have left

[cilla4progress]

22. Who has seen Gunner Palace?

Watched it last night. Please watch it to see what's really going on in Iraq, and why the calls for us to leave should be heeded.

[Critters2]

24. We had the opportunity to vote to leave

last night. We didn't. Republican trick, maybe, but the House was asked whether troops should come home. 403-3 voted to leave 'em there. Against the will of the American people. Against the will of the Iraqi people.

But we sure did show them 'Publicans!

[Karenina]

25. The simple truth is

American troops and *monied interests will withdraw voluntarily or they will be driven out. So einfach ist das.

[AuntPatsy]

26. It is simple, as someone pointed out earlier, the world did not end when

we left nam, enough is enough, we need to get out now.

[Disturbed]

27. Iraqi opinion is not relevant.

"The terrorists want to control the oil. Our way of life will be at risk". George W. Bush

[AntiFascist]

30. Very powerful photo and quote...

I wonder if they would wipe out 80% of the population if they had to?

[Leopolds Ghost]

32. To misquote an apocryphal Lenin: "What does it matter of 80% of the Iraqis

die, so long as the remaining 20% are pro-Western capitalists?"

[AntiFascist]

33. Sounds like quite a "Final Solution"...

the new anti-Semitism (based on the broader definition of Semite).

[Savannah Progressive]

28. NO, We voted 403-3 to KEEP THE TROOPS THERE FOREVER

AT least that is how it's already being spun. Get used to the Iraq War, it's going to be with us forever now thanks to our SPINELESS and Brainless elected

[understandinglife]

29. NYT: "Sectarian Hatred Pulls Apart Iraq's Mixed Towns"

Lead, front page article, November 20, 2005:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/20/international/middleeast/20sectarian.html?ei=5094&en=c8e4f36647d884a9&hp=&ex=1132462800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all

We will be out in six months or less if for no other reason than no Republican will want to be campaigning in the second half of 2006 with our troops still dying in The Iraqi Civil War.

By the way, It IS Tribunal Time in the United States of America.


Peace.

[hiley]

31. It is a Civil War now

We must leave