Today we got a debate they didn't want to have!! It was excellent!!

[Mr_Spock]

For those who thought this would end the war or that a symbolic vote by the Dems was something they needed - oh, well - it wasn't a good day for idealism.

Politics rarely intercepts with the ideal however - this was a door the Repukes didn't want to open - and now it's open and the beginning of the end of the Iraq war is in motion. You do realize that the Repukes need this war thing to be wrapping up before next fall don't you?

Murtha forced their hand - and they are now in deep doodoo! How are they going to justify backing away from an unpopular war next fall when up for re-election?

Anybody who thought they would vote to bring the troops home with any sort of timeline was not being realistic IMHO :smoke:

[NightOwwl]

1. Thank you Mr_Spock, for putting it in perspective.

I was so proud of my party tonight. :patriot:

[FreedomAngel82]

20. Me too!

I loved watching and love the video's too! I'm really proud of them. :)

[Rodger Dodger]

28. My only regret is that I didn't watch it on C-Span

are listen to the debate. I was all wrapped up in the sugar coating CNN was putting out all evening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. yep the stunt did not work

I fear Hastert will look himself in the morning and realize... I have been checked mated.

[Mr_Spock]

5. Yes, it was a very good play by the Dems...

And some are complaining that the debate was not good (as if in the little amount of time and over 200 Congressmen per side that a true debate could have occured). No, this debate was perfect - the Dems didn't overplay their hand, and they were just coy enough to have the Repukes singing the praises of Murtha by the end of the debate. Yeah, they got their usual RW talking points in, but the real strength was Murhta's remarks and his actual PLAN for ending this fiasco. The Repukes just offered hollow flag waving crap with no solutions - put that in your pipe and smoke it Repubs :smoke:

[joemurphy]

3. Well, what we saw was what we got. But it wasn't much of a

"debate". To me it looked like a "patriotism" contest.

[Mr_Spock]

8. Considering who's in control of Congress and how much they DIDN'T

want to talk about this subject, this was a BIG DEAL! When was the last time the Congress has debated any aspect of the "plan" for the war?

[joemurphy]

18. Well, I don't disagree that some talk is better than blind

acceptance. But I didn't hear anything shatteringly new. Murtha has now publicly come out against the war and he carries a lot of juice. That's something. But the Republicans just parroted their old "stay the course" and "why not victory" talking points and the Dems gave us more of "we need an exit strategy" without really giving us one. Murtha's "redeploy, create a rapid action force, and let diplomacy solve Iraq's problems" wasn't much of an alternative and the final "vote" was on a non-binding resolution introduced for the express purpose of being voted down. Maybe you're right. Maybe we've turned a corner. But it all mostly looked like the same old same old that we always get from the House blowhards to me

[FreedomAngel82]

24. Oh sure

The democrats were trying to really have a debate but the republicans kept spewing the bs about the troops and all their nonsense talking points.

[Midnight Rambler]

27. But you see, that's kind of the whole point

The Repugs don't have any issues that they can really debate on. All they can do is wave the flag, and for some, the bible. There's no substance there, and the Dems just let them hang themselves with their faux-patriotic drivel.

[TriMetFan]

4. And that is why there is going to be....

a Ethics Probe on Murtha. I just heard it on MSNBC.

[Mr_Spock]

6. I think they may want to keep that ethics probe quiet if they are smart

If they are seen as going after a critic "just like that", it could really spell the end for their party as they know it. This attack the critic thing is really pissing off all the Republicans I know. This "probe" will dissapear quickly I think...

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I am counting on it

and with the history of going after critics.. this is a nail in their coffin.

[TriMetFan]

13. I'm counting on it too.

I think the republican party still has a few more notches to go to hit rock bottom. I will not be happy until the republican party has no kind of pull in our Nation. In other words I think they are stupid enough to go after Murtha.

[tulsakatz]

17. yes they are that stupid!!! n/t

[tulsakatz]

15. whatever made you think they were smart?

we all know by now that they aren't smart.........and I doubt if the smear tactic will go away unless they think they can't dig up anything. But that won't stop them from trying. And I doubt that even if they don't find anything, they'll still try to make it into something bigger than it is.

Personally I don't see it going away.............of course, I could be wrong.

[libbygurl]

9. Scumbags. Is there no end to their sleaziness? They're fighting like

cornered rats - which is what they are - with apologies to the real rodents who look angelic next to these decrepit, corrupt and nasty Republican Bush loyalists.

[blue2helix]

7. Right On!

They would rather talk about nationalism and obedience to the flag, but instead they are being challenged on details!

[Mr_Spock]

12. I really think the Repukes were surprised at the fight in the Dems...

This is something we haven't seen much of from the Dems - they smell blood, and the Repukes were starting to soften by the end of the "debate". It was fascinating actually...

[tulsakatz]

11. I agree........it's a great day for Democracy!

yesterday when I heard about Murtha's comments, I never even expected something to happen so fast. But it looks like he certainly got the attention of everyone!!

Maybe I'm not thinking big enough but even as the debates began today, I really did not even expect them to vote on his idea let alone getting them to pass it. Well, they didn't actually vote on Murtha's proposal but at least they got them talking about it!!

I just saw Howard Fineman on Olbermann and he said he could not overstate Murtha's influence among Pentagon officials and Generals. And he said that Murtha has unified Democrats in this effort.

Now they're listening at least..........

[Mr_Spock]

14. This guy Murtha was like a secret weapon - he came out of nowhere

and had the focus of the nation for the past two days. The repercussions of todays "debate" will be reverberating all throughout the Thanksgiving holiday break. What a great play by Murtha - three cheers!! :toast:

[tulsakatz]

23. he did!

I've heard his name before but until now, I hadn't paid much attention to him or what he was involved in.

He certainly has my attention now!

[babylonsister]

16. Thank you, Mr. S, for clarifying!

The dialogue has been opened, and Mr. Murtha was so real and true. He spoke from his heart and knowledge.

[wanpete]

19. excellent summation of murtha's intent Mr_Spock!

we can't be too "pie in the sky" about this. of course they will not bring the troops home right away. this was total psychology and strategy on the part of murtha, and to a certain degree, the dems. politics is what it is and it is rarely instantaneously successful. however, the wheels are in motion and the debate is now on.

think of what a different place we are in now regarding iraq than even six months ago when a dem dare speak out against this quagmire. slow and steady folks...

[Mr_Spock]

22. Yep, slow and steady. No war is ended suddenly.

There is always a slow but steady erosion of support. First by the opposition party, then by the war party. The Repukes are trying to circle the wagons, but the Dems are seeming quite reasonable and there were two Repukes that spoke in favor of the idea of having a pullout plan tonight. There are more Repukes where those came from. Wars cannot last forever - even the Repukes know this. Getting out is ALWAYS a problem when a situation has turned into a guerrilla affair like Iraq.

[TahitiNut]

21. (Digging furiously) "With all this horse shit, there must be a pony here!"

:eyes:

[NightOwwl]

25. First sentence from tonight's WaPo article:

"Differences over policy on the Iraq war ignited an explosion of angry words and personal insults on the House floor yesterday when the chamber's newest member suggested that a decorated war veteran was a coward for calling for an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802896.html

This was a bad day for Republicans, and anyone who says that the Dems lost this battle is just plain wrong.

[wanpete]

26. totally agree nightowwl! any thought of a rethug win tonight is pure and

utter spin. we cannot fall for it and must stand strong in the face of what will surely be the repug attack machine and swiftboating that will surely come.

the difference this time is that over half of the country sees this for what it really is now. blinders are coming off and the reality of the human and ecomonic toll is finally hitting home.

[Mr_Spock]

29. This is bad for Republicans

They don't even want it discussed and now they are on a long Thanksgiving break and the last words were an angry debate about the never-ending war in Iraq. This was a victory...