Where's the line between Schadenfreude and Vindictiveness?

[northernsoul]

Ok, there's another thread here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1933778) that describes a reservist who has returned from Afghanistan, only to find his two sons shipping out to Iraq and his drywall business in shambles.

One poster, based on the facts that he lives in Virginia and is in the military, surmised that he voted for B*sh in 2004. This poster further implies that anyone who voted for B*sh in 2004 deserves whatever misfortune befalls them.

Aside from the fact there's no genuine evidence about how the man in the story voted last year, this discussion raised an interesting question in my mind: What is the line between schadenfreude (a "shameful pleasure" in the misfortunes of others, especially self-created misfortunes) and sheer vindictiveness?

Now, I accept a certain level of schadenfreude as being natural and even proper, especially when a genuine malfeasant gets their just deserts. Heck, I even enjoy the Darwin Awards. But how much of such an emotion is proper for rank-and-file B*sh voters, some of whom are experiencing genuine pain and hardship thanks to Dear Leader?

I have my thoughts on the matter, but I'm interested in hearing what my fellow DUers think.

[DrDebug]

1. Schadenfraude is happiness for somebody loss

but it is not vindictive. So if you watch Bush slipping and hitting the floor and that makes you burst into laughter, it is schadenfraude. However you did not take revenge or intended Bush to hit the floor. So if there is no intention it's schadenfraude. With intention it is vindictiveness.

[OKNancy]

2. I know it when I see it

:-)
and there is way too much vindictiveness and non-liberal hearts and minds around here sometimes.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. The situation you cite,

about the guy and his sons - that's just plain vindictive. Vindictive is, to me, ugly pleasure in the misfortune of someone who's somehow pissed off the vindictive one for no rational reason.

It's hateful.

Schadenfreude is a malignant delight in the misfortune of another. See, with schedenfreude, there's a kind of twisted upside, which is the pleasure the actor feels in those perceived bad breaks, in part because the actor was jealous of the person to whom those bad breaks are happening. So, it's a kind of cosmic payback, as the actor sees it.

Vindictive people take no delight in the misfortunes, not really. They're too busy looking for the next thing to be ugly about. With schadenfreude, the subject is more subjective and personal.

What a great topic! Thanks.

[northernsoul]

5. related thought: karma

As someone who rougly believes in the idea of karma / what-goes-around-comes-around, I sometimes feel a certain not-quite-happiness (but more like an internal resonance) when I see tangible examples of karma working itself out. Maybe that is a milder version of schadenfreude....

Where does the impulse to say "I told ya so!" fit into this spectrum of emotions?

P.s. I'm youngish leftie law student, so I love the oldleftielawyer moniker - are you still out there raising hell?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. Karma's more complicated than that

I say that as an OldLeftie married to a Chinese Buddhist. (Don't ask.)

My personal religion comes from what my old Sardinian grandfather used to tell me: "You spit up in the air, it lands in your face."

That's worked for me all these years. The older I get, the better it works.

I think the "I told you so" line is reserved for mothers, watching their children discover fire, and wondering if they're really raising vegetables. Or was that just me?

Yeah, this OldLeftie is still kicking it, but as a novelist now. The law is an occasional thing, although I maintain an office at my firm, but I write, mostly. And, of course, the lastest novel is about COINTELPRO and things like that, so, YoungLeftieLawyer-To-Be, you now know that your truest heart will never be denied.

I wish you all good luck - the best times are waiting for you, really.

[BJW]

4. well vindictiveness

is taking active steps to enact vengance or insure a comeuppance from spite for perceived prior wrongs by that person. Schadenfreude is stepping back and enjoying watching karma bite somebody in the ass for their own wrongdoing and bad choices--not actively attempting to bring it about.

[northernsoul]

8. where does our purported B*sh voter fit in?

I gut reaction is that the misdeed of having voted for B*sh last year isn't bad enought to warrant any satisfaction in seeing someone who did that experience such serious suffering. My feeling is that as liberals, we need to be on the side of everyone whose life has been upended by this repugnant regime, and trying to win them over to our side through compassion, rather than rubbing their past bad decisions in their faces.

[northernsoul]

11. another thought: does proportion matter?

My thought is that watching karma bite somebody in the ass is only enjoyable when it's proportionate. It's the diference between snarking at your college roomate's hangover after doing tequila shooters and taking pleasure in smoker getting lung cancer. Both hangovers and lung cancer are foreseeable results of such common and unwise behaviors, but hangovers will go away with much serious consequence - not so with the lung cancer.

[The Sleeper]

6. Depends on whether you are the driver or passenger ...

in the car driving Dick Cheney off to jail....

[sui generis]

7. you can be more than one thing simultaneously

It IS an ironic half-truth that voting for this imbecile would lead to trouble for everyone, not just the terrorists, and so there is a grim satisfaction that we were proven right.

And we can experience that satisfaction and still also feel for the guy. That IS what makes us different from them after all; we don't check your voter registration before checking our hearts and wallets.

[northernsoul]

10. well put, sui generis

"we don't check your voter registration before checking our hearts and wallets."
That's a great quote!

[WHAT]

12. Schadenfreude: a version of justice...

experienced personally with satisfaction?

Vendictiveness: satisfaction in the furtherance and retaliation of a grudge?

The two seem quite different to me...

[durrrty libby]

13. Schadenfreude? I think not.

When W took office the first time, I was angry that people could be so ignorant, selfish and clueless, to let this dope into office. The second time…Oh Boy…I wanted to sue every damn one of them for trying to ruin my country.

As you can see, I’m no sympathizer of W voters; however, I have empathy for that man and his family. Anyone that is happy for his misfortunes has a very black and hateful heart.

I truly believe this administration has contributed to bringing out the worst of people, because they feel hopeless and doomed. We need a kind, great visionary asap.

Interesting discussion...Thanks

[pitohui]

14. the line is clear -- vindictiveness requires action

while it's disasteful to me that people are taking pleasure in the pain suffered by this family, it is clearly a case of that-german-word-i-can't-spell and not vindictiveness

to be a vindictive person, you need to actually get off yr butt, stop cruising the internet, and do something hateful to someone you don't like -- not just sit back and let the body of your enemy float by on the river

so it's a pretty clear line

one's passive, the other is active

neither is pretty but while schadenfruede is an understandable weakness we all share, since we can't control our thoughts, getting involved in vindictiveness is something we can avoid, since we can control our actions

my take on it anyway, admittedly i speak no german

[jokerman93]

15. If you believe the 2004 election was stolen...

If you believe the 2004 election was stolen, then any kind of pleasure at a Bush supporter's suffering is merely spite from a small heart.

If fraud has been perpetrated on the American people by the Neocons, complicit corporations, and the corporate/state media, then Bush supporters may be misguided, selfish or ignorant of history, but they aren't responsible for the state this country is in. The responsibility lies with the liars on high, and at Diebold.

Because we don't have enough facts to even understand the context, our interpretation of another's seeming karma is always speculation. Our schadenfreude says more about us than it does about them.

Just my thoughts on it.