Music Class : should hymns and gospel be part of a music class?

[DanCa]

I was just thinking wether or not hymnal songs and gospel songs should be included in a public school class. Any thoughts? Note this is inspired by the lbn article about the choir dropping the song - pick a bale of cotton.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

1. I think it depends on the event, For example,

If it is a Christmas celebration, then absolutey, if not, then why?

[Swamp Rat]

2. Hell yeah!

:D

Domine audivi auditum tuum et timui consideravi opera tua et expavi in medio duorum animalium. :)

[Bru]

3. It would be a good Supreme Court question

Gospel songs SHOULD be allowed, because the primary purpose of having them would be their musical value, which in and of itself is not tied to the religious aspect. This differs from prayer in schools, where the religious aspect is the primary reason for the prayers.

Now, this issue could get sticky if a public school teacher taught ONLY gospel songs, because it would be harder to prove that a mere coincidence was the explanation for a lack of secular songs.

I have drifted away from Catholicism and Christianity as an ideology, but there are many many hymns and songs that I still love. In fact, I've gone to church and other religious gatherings on occasion just to have an excuse to sing them loudly. :)

[DanCa]

4. Hey Bru welcome to..DU that rhymed.

Well here's another question didnt all type of music evolve from gospel and hymns? Or is that just something I heard in error. The only thing i object to if a song or hymn is actually prayer based. Because no one has the right to force prayer on a person. It is a real stickey wicket aint it?

[Bru]

8. Thanks for the welcome, DanCa

I see music as co-evolving with poetry. The ancient poets would tell their tales in song, which may or may not have had to do with worship. But certainly religion was a big part of ancient music.

If the hymn is prayer-based, it is a stickier issue. One important point is that people don't hold a singer to the words he or she sings at a performance. They know, as in a drama, that the singer is in a sense taking on the persona of the composer. So on that grounds it would seem harmless for a non-practicer or a practicer of a different religion to sing a prayer in which he or she did not believe.

However, the question is whether they have a legitimate right to refrain from singing it, even if singing it wouldn't commit them in a social sense to the religion in which the prayer is based.

Definitely an interesting question.

[tjwmason]

10. Not really.

Hymns (in the common sense of the word) are quite a modern development in the history of Church music. There are more ancient hymns - the office hymns, things like the Te Deum - but these have music in plainchant.

Chant did give rise to later choral music - the earliest form of polyphony would be to anothing line over/under the chant line. This developed and 'enriched' over the years. Gospel has been a significant starting point for Jazz, and both Gospel and hymns have fed into much of the earlier development of many genres of popular music.

There is a problem with your line "The only thing i object to if a song or hymn is actually prayer based" - hymns are prayer based, the other texts likely to be studied (e.g., settings of the Mass) are the same. As a Catholic I do believe that consideration of the spirituality behind this does add to consideration of the music (especially where the composer had profound religious views - e.g. William Byrd) - however I also think that this can be contemplated in an abstract sense where religion is not forced onto people. When I was a young boy at school I sang Messiah by Handel, most folk in the choir weren't religious yet had no problems singing texts like "for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" because it was about a fantastic work of art.

If you are to exclude religious music from public schools, then in art classes you can't look at rennaissance master-works featuring religious imagery (i.e., nearly all of them) either - in fact consideration of all religious arts is to be excluded which removes a vast swathe not merely of western art, but of most art forms from around the world.

[longship]

9. I think that SCOTUS would not hear such a case.

It's not like creationism in the science class. It is entirely appropriate to perform sacred music in public schools because one cannot learn music without it.

I cannot imagine a music class without sacred music.
"Students, this semester we're going to learn all about the history of music but we cannot study Hildegard, Bach, and many of the most important influences because they wrote music about god."

[Ken Burch]

14. Gospel songs are also an integral part of African American culture

whereas "white" Christian music is not intertwined with cultural values to anywhere near the same degree.

[longship]

5. Sacred music is essential

Sacred music is inseparable from music education. If you are not doing sacred music you can't possibly be learning the whole story.

I am an atheist, but I listen to all sorts of music, including gospel and sacred classical. (You can have that pop christian garbage.) Some of my favorite music is large scale sacred choral works, e.g, Mozart or Verdi Requiem Mass. Bach wrote a couple hundred Canatas, many of which are stunning. And who does not like Hildegard von Bingen (12th century German abbess, mystic, and composer). All sacred music.

It is entirely proper and appropriate for public high schools to perform sacred works.

[DanCa]

7. I like choral music too -

and i agree i can't stand the christian pop garbage of today.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

6. especially if they would play the hymns in a rag-time beat

[Kindigger]

11. Was that a joke?

I just had a flashback to a boarding house I lived in for awhile. The owner was a 78 year old Catholic, spinster, ex-teacher. She gave piano lessons in the downstairs parlor.

She always cracked me up when she started a solemn Amazing Grace, and suddenly it was ragtime Amazing Grace. :)

Thanks for the memory!

[LonelyLRLiberal]

17. Not a joke - my father would do the same thing

He played by ear. I never heard him do it, but after his funeral, my aunts were telling stories and this was one of the stories.

[XemaSab]

12. Sure!

At my high school, we performed centuries of music-- black, white, Christian, Jewish.

All the way from "Lully, Lullay" to "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire" through "Lift Every Voice and Sing", "Magnificat", and "El Yivneh Hagaliel" (sp).

It was a public school, and the teacher knew that he had a lot of diversity in his class, so he'd make jokes about the song that said "tell all the world Jesus is King" saying "tell all the world Jesus was a Rabbi".

I think trying to go overly PC on this could be really sad. We sang a wide variety of beautiful songs, some secular, some religious, and I honestly don't think anyone was bothered by it. I'd be more bothered by a teacher trying so hard to eliminate the possibility of offense that all the kids sing is pop crap.

[mandyky]

13. I put yes because to me choir points to religious

songs, where chorus is more secular. I know it is semantics, but that is my basis for my outlook. For instance, if my child joined a chorus and sang religious songs I might feel differently.

No matter what the singing group is called, I think decisions on song choicescan be influenced by students and their parents.

[no_hypocrisy]

15. If you start banning music on its content like hymns because they're

religious, then when do you stop? Do you ban "Jesu, Joy of Desiring" by J.S. Bach because you will offend Jewish chorus members? Much great classical music, African-American songs from slavery ("Go Down Moses", "Kumbaya") revolve around the concept of God, Jesus, etc. and this music is valuable in terms of teaching harmony, counterpoint, musical history, etc.

I seem to remember this program nullification started with banning Christmas carols in public schools. This is unnecessary. I sang carols and Hannukah songs in chorus. Why not be "Unitarian" and sing all kinds of international songs that revolve around the holidays of different cultures and religions. Music can bring us together better than politics.

[BiggJawn]

16. 40 years ago....

We learned and studied what we now call "Songs of the Old South" or some other PC term.

This is a genre that is an important part of music history and theory. you have phrasings and chord progressions in "old spirituals" that you just don't have in other forms of music.