So I just got up and walked out of a lecture.

[antigone382]

Attending this thing, "Creation and DNA" or something like that, was three points extra credit on our last Chemistry exam...and I need all the help I can get in Chemistry. But I don't come to college to be preached to, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit there and listen to some buddy of Tim Lahaye's try to convince me that I'm an idiot if I don't believe that DNA is conclusive evidence of intelligent design. I don't care how many books the dude has written, what degrees he has, where he has taught or who he has debated.

I'm really dissapointed in some of the science teachers at my college, and I'm pissed that I would be pressured into attending this in order to maintain a grade in a difficult class...I better not lose those three points or I'm going to complain. What a crock.

[Chimichurri]

1. what crock, indeed!

Sorry to hear that. Boy things have changed in the 10 years since I've been in college. Shameful, really.

[antigone382]

20. Yep..a huge disappointment, IMHO...

I lost a lot of respect for some of our science professors today.

[Benhurst]

2. I admire you for walking out. You should not be denied your

extra credits, since you did make the effort to attend the lecture in the first place.

[antigone382]

12. It looks like I got them...I should have left at the beginning.

I wasn't sure what the lecture was about, but as soon as I walked in I figured it out...my urge was to leave right then, but I rationalized...I thought that maybe it was better to know thy enemy (never mind that I heard all these arguments before, back when I was a sort of pseudo-fundie myself and believed them)...but in the end, I just couldn't put up with the bull.

[Benhurst]

17. Great. And I think you were right to stay for the first part, since there

was always a chance, no matter how slight, you might have been mistaken.

Good luck with you chemistry!

[antigone382]

27. Thanks!

:)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I'd have doodled

Darwin Fish and left the paper behind......hope you survive chemistry (it was my nemesis, too!)

[antigone382]

13. Oh, I was thinking lots of little snide remarks to myself.

He tried to act as if he wasn't presenting any particular religious viewpoint (though he's good friends with Tim LaHaye and he quoted Romans during his spiel); he included a slide in his little power point presentation offering potential causes of this intelligent design, like Aliens, or humans, or a transcendent God...


I thought to myself "or spaghetti..." and tried to picture all the smart ass things DUers would say if they were with me. You guys must have been with me in spirit, or I would have thrown something.

[Talismom]

4. As a former chemistry major, all I can say is that you have my sympathy!

I'm so glad that I didn't have to put up with such lunacy! I think you have all the right in the world to earn those points without being subjected to a theology lecture. It's probably difficult to stand up for those rights, but very important and admirable. Good luck!

[antigone382]

18. Thank you...I need all the help I can get in this class.

I love biology, anatomy, micro...any of the life sciences. But the more mathematically based ones, like chemistry and physics, have been an extreme challenge for me. Last year I had a 4.0, but I'll be extremely lucky if I can pull my chemistry grade up to a B...that's why these points were so important to me, and why it angers me that I had to sit through a theology lecture to get them.

[Lowell]

5. Good for you!

Now I hope you complain to the head of the science department. If you want to hear that kind of drivel then go to Sunday school. It has no place in a university setting. This is why we are becoming a laughing stock in the eyes of the rest of the world. Religion should never interfer with science. Even the catholic church has endorsed evolution. Sounds like the Taliban is taking over your college.

[antigone382]

19. I did get the three points, and I'll definitely say something...

I will at least talk to my Micro professor...he fell in love with me last year for my straight A's on his very challenging tests, and for my Kerry/Edwards pin, and I'm sure he'll sympathize...or at least give me some rationale as to why the science department thought this lecture would be appropriate.

[eek]

6. how was the lecture presented?

was it meant to be considered as "here's what some people are into, draw your own conclusions" - y'know, like a compare /contrast thingy?

[antigone382]

11. No, it was one guy (Dr. Gary E. Parker, IIRC) claiming...

...that evolutionary theory was full of holes, and that you could scientifically determine intelligent design. I don't know all the points he made, because I left before he was finished...but it involved claiming that the Miller Experiment was flat-out wrong and effectively contributed nothing to theories of chemical evolution, and claiming that Carl Sagan believed in Aliens.

[MadHound]

7. It is sad to see our colleges and universities reacting the same way

As the media reacted thirty years ago. In reaction to the charges of "left wing bias" after Watergate, our media started to slowly but surely move increasingly to the right. The repeal of the Fairness Doctrine really caused a stampede after '85, one that we haven't recovered from since. And thus, we have ended up with a RW lapdog media that reports the spin and talking points from the right, and barely mentions anything from the left unless it almost literally slaps them in the face.

Now the RW is screaming about how much left wing bias is in our colleges and universities, and are attacking academia with unreserved zeal. Sadly, I'm seeing more and more of our colleges trying to placate and pander to the extreme RW much like the media did, and sadly it is going to produce the same result, a dumbed down RW system of higher learning, who despite its best efforts to pander to the RW will only result in even further demonizing on their part, and graduates whose degrees aren't worth the sheepskin they're printed on.

[antigone382]

21. You know what? We'll share our universities when they share their churches

n/t

[moc]

8. A chemistry professor supporting ID?!

:wow:

Both of my parents are retired chemistry professors, and they would be appalled. I saw them this weekend, and they gave me an article from their local paper that did a great job bashing ID from a scientist's perspective.

I'm sorry, but ID isn't science and has no place in a science class. Good for you for walking out. I'd even take it a step further and complain to the department chair.

[antigone382]

15. This was a guy who came to lecture us--it wasn't my professor

But my professor DID cancel Chemistry class so that we could go to see this thing...one or two of our biology teachers were there, too, and I don't know how aware they were of the subject matter which was to be discussed, though they must have had some idea. I noticed that my Microbiology professor, a raging liberal whom I love, was NOT in attendance...I might just complain to him about it, and see if it goes anywhere.

[no_hypocrisy]

9. Well, you gotta expect these things to happen at Liberty University . . .

KIDDING!!!!!

[antigone382]

22. LOL.

This is just a two-year school, but still, they should have far more respect for scientific reality than this.

[melissinha]

10. Did the prof do this on purpose?

I can also see the possibility that your prof made this extra credit and not a required lecture as a means to start a conversation on the merits of empirical evidence. I can see why being exposed to this drivel can also help augment and strengthen the argument for science....

[antigone382]

16. I don't think so.

He might have, but evolution isn't even in our course material at all...it's strictly classical chemistry. He hasn't offered up an opinion at all, and he certainly hasn't presented the accepted scientivic explanation of chemistry...it pisses me off because a lot of these students don't have biology or know little about it, and here this guy comes along distorting the facts to suit his agenda...and the students who are listening to his lecture don't know enough to challenge his assertions, out loud or even in their own minds, so they have no choice but to blindly accept them.

[spanone]

14. Science means nothing to the repukes. Something else to manipulate.

[antigone382]

23. Yep...just a tool for their own ideology.

And if they can't use it the way they want to, they'll remold it until it fits their twisted purposes.

[DURHAM D]

24. Are you attending a state or private college ? n/t

[antigone382]

47. It's a state community college.

n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Didn't any of the students challenge him?

Maybe things have changed since my days as a college student ('60s/'70s) but we would've been on our feet with challenges.

[antigone382]

48. I don't know, there was a question and answer session, but I had a lab

...chemistry, no less, with the same professor. All the students from my class that went to the lecture had to leave before they had the opportunity to challenge him.

[Neil Lisst]

26. Sorry, but you lose the extra points.

Science is about exploring possibilities, and you can't debunk superstition if you don't hear it out and learn how you can refute the points and pseudo points made in its name.

When I listen to Bush talk nonstop for 40 minutes, it's not because I like what he's saying or agree with it. I do it because I need to know exactly what he said, unfiltered by anyone else.

When you refuse to hear other viewpoints, you blind yourself to the avenues with which you can refute or enlighten them.

The deal was you'd go and listen. You left because you wanted to speak by action in rebuttal. If you had gotten up and walked out of a voluntary attendance, I've no problem with that. But you're looking for quid pro quo and you didn't do your part, which was sit through it.

Your teachers want you to be able to understand the arguments being made so that you can better understand how they are defective. You don't get to decide the curriculum, they do. Your job is to do the work assigned, and learn in that process. When you decide you won't do the work assigned as mandatory or optional, you decide whether you get credit or not.

[thinkingwoman]

29. I have to agree with Neil and Tierra above

you should have heard him out and then challenged his bs.

Walking out on things you don't agree with is what the other side does. We don't need to copy their tactics. We need to challenge them.

A university setting is the perfect place to have such lectures and the debates that should follow them.

[Bouncy Ball]

32. From what I've read in this thread, this was not a debate, but a

lecture.

[thinkingwoman]

35. almost every guest lecture I ever attended

in college ended with a question and answer session.

The smartest students raked the dumbest lecturers over the coals during those.

[Der Blaue Engel]

34. No. When you go to a science lecture and find out it's church

you do not have to stay to be "open minded." A university setting is NOT the place for such lectures or debates. Magical thinking does not belong in education, period.

[thinkingwoman]

36. Based on what the OP said

I think you're mischaracterizing.

That aside...I completely disagree. A university is one of many forums where ideas of the day are debated, and debunked. The lecture described in the OP seemed to fit that perfectly.

Too bad the OP didn't stick around to participate in the debunking, and hand the asshat's head back to him on a platter.

[Der Blaue Engel]

37. Mis-characterizing how?

..."Creation and DNA" or something like that, was three points extra credit on our last Chemistry exam... I'm pissed that I would be pressured into attending this in order to maintain a grade in a difficult class....

I don't agree that it's appropriate when it is actually assigned and/or encouraged as being part of science education. Philosophical ideas can be debated, but this was presented as learning. Unless the professors had presented it as "how not to conduct scientific study," it has no business being used as science curriculum.

[thinkingwoman]

39. It sounds to me

like the professor offered extra credit to students who attended a guest lecture being held on campus.

I would appreciate it if the OP would correct me if I am wrong on this.

This scenario happened many times when I was in college...profs (often under pressure from their dept. chairs to help fill seats at guest lectures) would offer extra credit to students if they would attend said lectures. Some were then discussed (or cussed) in the next regular class meetings, others were ignored. At no time were these lectures part of the coursework or grading of the regular class (except for the extra credit points offered to students for laying off the bong and walking down to the lecture hall for an hour or two to hear someone speak).

The quality of these lectures varied greatly. I don't remember any of them (in any subject) being particularly good, as a matter of fact. But when I was busting my ass and still struggling to earn a decent grade, I appreciated the chance at extra credit just for filling a seat. I never thought any prof was endorsing those lectures and I was never brainwashed by ideas I didn't agree with (or which didn't hold up to scrutiny).

[Der Blaue Engel]

42. I wish the OP would correct you, too

Or me, if I'm misunderstanding. It sounded like a lot more pressure and endorsement than randomly filling a seat.

Antigone382...can you clarify?

[antigone382]

72. See below.

I would definitely say that we were pressured to attend.

[antigone382]

51. Yes...it was extra credit.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I posted that thread hastily and had to head to another class, intending to return later.

I've now been able to explain in a few other places in this thread that I couldn't stay for the question and answer session anyway, because I had to go to my chemistry lab...I wasn't given the opportunity to challenge this guy with my words, or even to hear others challenge him. So I challenged him the best way I could, by refusing to acknowledge a viewpoint that I know to be false and distorted.

My next chemistry class is Wednesday, and I don't know if we'll be discussing the lecture or not...but I highly doubt it. As far as I can tell, this guy's information was just puked out there without any information to challenge it or put it in context. I do intend to find out what happened in the question and answer session, because I would like to think that at least some of the biology teachers I saw there would have pointed out the errors in his logic.

[thinkingwoman]

76. Hey thanks

no problem on the time lag...life happens. :hi:

I'd be interested in hearing what you find out about other teachers challenging the speaker. Please update if possible.

And thanks for starting a lively discussion about something unrelated to Libby's bearchild fetish, Bush's delusions of grandeur, and various other dead horse topics that have been flourishing lately. I, for one, appreciate it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. San Diego State for many years RAN a debate between

our local creation people and the biology department. Last I checked the universtity called them off because they were not leading anywhere, in any way shape or form. Moreover they were giving a platfrom to people who desperately need validation from the science community

[thinkingwoman]

40. well I can see how that would happen. nt.

[Neil Lisst]

46. Sigh. I think the free and open exchange of ideas is on the wane.

It is my sense that people in universities today are much less willing to hear the outrageous, in the name of free and open debate.

If someone wants to argue that whites are genetically superior, don't shout him down, hear him out! If they want to inveigh against Jews, let's hear it, then rebut it.

That's where I come from, and what I was taught. You can't rebut someone if you're howling in disdain. When we refuse to hear others out, we strongly imply that we cannot stand to hear their ideas, and rather than address those ideas intelligently, we will simply cover them up.

Folks, I've been in the streets in protest many times over the years, not so much recently, but over the years. The Rightwingers always try to cover our signs, shut us up, move us over, stand in front of us, shove us out of the way. I don't want to be like that. I want to hear the other guy out, THEN rebut him.

My dear old dad used to say "everyone is good for something, even if it's only as a bad example."

[antigone382]

52. If the guy wanted to give his lecture, fine.

It really isn't him that I'm angry at anyway...it's the fact that this is being presented to students who don't have the resources to challenge it, and that my college did not offer students those resources. Most of the students here are poor, juggling jobs and school, often with kids and spouses, and they're going to go home believing that the things this guy said have validity, when they flatly don't. I mean, I love my school in its way, but it's not exactly a well-spring of philosphical and scientific discussion; it's a community college...and the way this lecture was handled was careless.

[thinkingwoman]

79. looks like we're in agreement

pretty weird huh. :hi:

Like the quote from your dad...he's absolutely right.

[antigone382]

50. This isn't a university, it's a community college.

The kids here (myself included) are not generally biology majors, and they aren't going to be expert enough to challenge this guy; that's what makes me so angry: this was presented by the science department of my school as a valid way of thinking, when it simply isn't; and there was no adequately knowledgeable voice to challenge his factual innaccuracies. I caught a few, just because I have some knowledge of general biology, but I could never have stood up to this guy and refuted his claims point by point, because I don't have the same knowledge to draw from that he does. The college should have provided someone who did have that knowledge, and they didn't.

Besides, I couldn't stay for the question and answer session anyway, because I had to go to my chemistry lab; interesting how my chem professor set it up that way...

[thinkingwoman]

78. that's a shame

I can see why you reacted the way you did.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. Sorry, but the moment you introduce a deity

into a "scientific" explanation, you've lost all my respect. You cannot scientifically prove or disprove the presence of a deity.

Reminds me of this old cartoon:



So why exactly did he or she need to sit there and listen to "and then, a miracle occurred?" How in the world could that have possibly increased his or her knowledge of chemistry or made him or her a better scientist?

To know the other side? Just google "Intelligent Design." Or read the text "Of Pandas and People."

My God, I went to an extremely conservative university in the 80s and I cannot imagine them holding a lecture on this at that time.

I'm all for hearing every reasonable point of view. But do you go down to the corner and ask Lenny the Crazy Guy what he thinks of American foreign policy in the first half of the twentieth century? I doubt the original poster needs to sit through an entire lecture to figure out when something doesn't even qualify as science.

And sorry, but you don't get to decide if the original poster gets the three points or not. Sounds like they just had to sign in to get the points.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you with his noodly appendage, Ramen.

[antigone382]

55. Thanks, B-Ball!

You get it.

Like I said...I would be pissed if my history professor made me sit through a lecture given by a holocaust denier for extra credit. I've already heard all this bullcrap...in fact there was a time when I believed it (did you ever read a book entitled "The Face"? It tried very hard to disprove evolution...and I tried very hard to believe it, in spite of the leaps in logic).

I mean, the basic premise was "science can't explain everything. Therefore, God must have done it all. So there." That's not a scientific analysis, it's a leap of faith. And if you want to have that leap of faith, it's fine...but don't make stupid snide remarks because I choose to believe that this is something that needs to be explored and understood further, rather than something that just magically happened.

May your life be forever touched by his noodly appendage as well.

[antigone382]

49. This was not an assignment. It was extra credit.

And I should not have to be preached to for extra credit...particularly in a class where many of the students are vulnerable and must take the opportunity for those points. This lecturer was not just expressing his viewpoint...he was derisive and snide when discussing "evolutionists" (us "vitriolic" evolutionists), and his twisted reasoning should never have been supported by my college in the first place. I would be just as pissed if a history teacher forced me to listen to a lecture given by a holocaust denier.

And I did get the extra points, anyway.

[CabalPowered]

28. I hear ya.. but in situations like this, sometimes the best

thing to do is finish the class and then when evals come, hit the prof hard.

[antigone382]

56. Oh, I will.

He's really not a very good professor.

[ArkDem]

30. How can you keep an open mind listening to stuff like that!

[antigone382]

67. I'll keep an open mind, I just don't want religion dressed up as science.

They just aren't the same. A lot of people see one as a threat to the other, but I just don't understand that way of thinking...IMHO, they are totally immaterial to each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. The right runs these report your lub'rul profesor scam

how about reporting this piece of crock? Time may be ripe for us to maintain our own databases, and I am not kidding here... and by the way, you may want to complaint if need be to the dean of the college

[antigone382]

68. I'm considering exactly what I'm going to do.

I have to be careful, because my chemistry professor is the type who just might hold a grudge, and my grade in there is delicate as it is...but I'm not going to let fear stop me from doing what needs to be done.

[guruoo]

71. There may be some safety...

in numbers. I'd say if you were to check you'll likely
find that you're not alone. Talk to some of the
others that were there and see if you can recruit some
concensus support.

[Tactical Progressive]

41. You did the right thing in the right way.

If you hadn't even gone to the lecture, like your bio teach, it wouldn't have sent a message. If you'd waited to ask a question it would be like endorsing their thinly-veiled religion-is-science attack on reason as worthy of consideration, which it isn't. It is politics ramming religion into the minds of impressionable students as science.

What they are doing is intellectually unethical. Walking out was exactly the right thing to do. Did anyone else follow suit?

[understandinglife]

54. I agree.

And, antigone382, as a Professor with 30 + years as a biologist, I want you to know how much I respect what you did.

I hope you send this thread to the administrators of your college and to the Regents/Trustees in whatever state your college is located.

What happened in that classroom is a disgrace to education and science.

What you did is honorable and under no circumstance should you be penalized.


Peace.

[antigone382]

58. Thank you, understandinglife!

I should clarify that this lecture wasn't just for our class, it was held in the auditorium and open to the public. But I really appreciate your support.

Wow, a *real* biologist is proud of me! :blush:

[antigone382]

57. Yeah, four or five guys on my row, though I think they were just bored.

I told them as we were leaving "I don't come to college to be preached to," and one of them was like "I don't either." They said they were just waiting for someone else to leave, to give them an excuse. And a few people also left before I did.

Thanks :hi:

[hunter]

43. I always sit in the front row and stare at them like they are bugs.

But in college I'd always go for the extra credit, even if it was stupid.

If there is a discussion at the end of the lecture you can raise your hand and say something like, "Well, that's the damndest thing I've ever heard! Where did they find you?"

Try to pin them down on who is sponsoring them, if they are getting paid, and which agency is sending them out.

Or not. I got kicked out of college and had to beg and grovel before they let me back in.

[antigone382]

59. You know what was weird? One of his slides had these brochures...

...for this "creation research expedition" to Florida that he teaches...good for college credit at Christian schools--oh, and home school. I know that he's supposed to be coming out with a book, along with Tim Lahaye :puke:

I guess he's another one who uses Jesus to draw a fat paycheck.

[hunter]

69. A creation research expedition to Florida sounds appropriate.

These creation researchers are worshiping the cockroach god; the god that does his miracles in the dark and scurries away when you turn on the lights.

Florida has many cockroaches. Perhaps they are looking for this:



The Florida Woods Cockroach (Eurycotis floridana) is a large species of cockroach, which usually grows to a length of 1 1/2" to 2". It is black in colour, and has a wide, glossy body, and appears at first glance to be wingless, however it does have very short wings just beneath its head, which are useless for flying. The cockroach, when disturbed, often emits a strong, disagreeable odour, somewhat reminiscent of amaretto. The Florida woods roach looks remarkably similar to the female Oriental cockroach, and the two could be mistaken for each other to the casual observer.

[antigone382]

70. Oh god! I wasn't prepared for that, lol.

Cockroaches are one of my only two irrational fears. I guess fear and irrationality make them fitting representatives of that guy's God.

[hunter]

75. It does have very short wings just beneath its head...

...therefore it could be an angel!

[patrice]

44. A fact about teachers: Many become teachers for their Own Agenda, rather

than that of their Discipline/Content-Area. I taught Writing, Literature, and Social Science/Psychology. I loved it, because I love writing, reading, and people. Schools are Troubled though, to say the least.

I love Research and the Arts. I'm starting a business as a local Tutor, in my home, soon. My certification is current.

[antigone382]

61. I would love to have you for a teacher, you seem to have cool interests.

Right now my major is in science (at least a little bit because I'd like to piss off the president of Harvard by excelling in the science world); but I'm one of those students who is equally inspired by both art *and* science. My favorite subjects in high school were English, theatre, and biology.

[patrice]

73. Thank you, I thought it was best for my students to be able to think

about anything for themselves.

I think I may be a frustrated Scientist of somekind. I love naturalistic research. I loved introducing students to Psychological research abstracts in databases, where they could "graze" on topics of human behavior and mental processes, until they found things they were interested in.

[mwb970]

45. We had police in the classrooms at Ohio State in 1970, after Kent State.

Now they've got preachers in the classroom. Can't a guy just go to college?

[antigone382]

63. Apparently not.

I wouldn't have minded so much if they had provided someone to rebut his arguments (and I know there would have been no shortage of qualified professors to do it), but instead it was presented as this rosy, scientifically valid idea.

Ugh, and what was really bizarre was that they had this at least five minute long spiel on all the things he had done and how great he was, just to prove that he really was a real scientist. I don't know why he would have made them say all that stuff about him before he went on, unless it was just to feed his own ego.

[flyarm]

53. i sure am proud of you , that you walked out!!..

it takes character and alot of self esteem to walk out in a class you are pushed to take..and it takes alot of self worth ..and it seems like you have all of those wonderful ingredients!!

As mom..i am so proud of you, as i was proud of my son who fought for what he believed in...

never ever give up what you believe in...its what make you extraordinary..instead of ordinary!!

i applaud you!! with my greatest sincerity!!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

i would be proud to call you my son or daughter!!

fly

[antigone382]

64. Aww, you are too sweet, flyarm!

:hug:

[Squatch]

60. So you walked out of a lecture because you didn't want to be lectured to?

Doesn't that kinda defeat the whole premise behind a lecture?

You come in.
Person lectures.
Person finishes lecturing, opens for questions, and then invites you to Tang and cookies.
You leave.

:shrug:

[antigone382]

65. I was pressured to hear some guy's religious spiel for extra credit.

This is a secular public school, not a private Christian one...and this guy was pushing a blatantly Christian agenda in a public school. I would gladly sit through even the most boring lecture if it was educational in nature, but this one wasn't. He was effectively trying to convert people...and I don't come to college to be converted. I come to learn. Either way, NO student should ever have to listen to someone's religious beliefs for the sake of his or her grade...unless perhaps that student's major is theology--which mine isn't.

[hunter]

74. Someone bought an audience for this guy spew on..

...and they probably paid him to do it.

What these guys preach isn't science, and it certainly isn't theology.

How does anyone get a masters degree in geology or biology when they believe the basic premise of evolution is false? The foundation of modern biology and geology is evolution. Might this same sort of extreme stubborness interfere with one's ability to understand one's own religious tradition?

I have a few friends who are very strict Creationists, who believe that man is created in the image of God, and that "evolution" as we percieve is merely the background of some unseen, and perhaps unknowable, tapestry. That's not the same as denying all the evidence of geology and biology. Fossils do exist, you can hold them in your hand, and they are all part of the deeper mysteries of time and space.

These friends and I hold in common our belief in the separation of church and state, our faith in God, and our understanding that most sorts of "Intelligent Design" have become a very toxic brew of bad religion and bad science.

I also have friends who are fervent atheists. It seems to me they have a better understanding and appreciation for this universe, even a brighter spiritual understanding of this universe, than those who preach the most common forms of Intelligent Design.

For the most part I find the preachers of Intelligent Design to be demeaning of God's Creation. Their deliberate ignorance of evolutionary biology and theology offends me.

[DanCa]

62. Well at least it was an elective imagine what happens when they start

putting that crapola in the curriculum. Hey can I change lead into gold too?

[antigone382]

66. LOL...*shudder*

Can't we PLEASE just stick to the facts, people?

[Swamp Rat]

77. Oi antigone382!

Aside from the creationist BS on your test, I hope you did well.

Good thing I wasn't at the lecture.