A proposal: $5.00 a gallon

[question everything]

with tax credit for all cars with a mpg rating of at least 20 - to be applied when we renew our car registration.

I was thinking about it while reading that "consumer interest in SUV is showing some signs of life as gasoline prices ease" in the WSJ today.

I cannot think of anyone who needs and SUV for every day drive.

For the ones who need gas guzzlers for business - they can deduct these expenses as business expense. For the families that like an all terrain vehicle when they go camping - if this is the only use, that $5.00 a gallon will not break the family budget.

I like to read the "car talk" column and several weeks ago someone was wondering whether they would have to break and purchase an SUV, since they are building a home in the north woods someplace and have half a mile of sheer soil, that after heavy rain they had to get someone to pull their car from the mud. The reply was that since this was their property, they would be better off paving that half a mile to prevent future incidents.

I realize that creation freaks do not believe in fossils that generate our oil, and believe that a Moses like prophet will hit a rock with his cane and oil will continue gushing, but for the rest of us - we need to conserve energy, even if gasoline were $0.39 a gallon.

[MadHound]

1. Oh wait awhile, you'll get your wish

My best guess is somewhere around Labor Day of next year, or Memorial Day weekend of '07.

[electron_blue]

2. Good idea, but try mpg of at least 25

Last time I car-shopped, many SUV's had quoted mpg's of over 20. Not the huge honkers, but some of the mini-SUV's and medium-SUV's claimed that on the stickers and in their reports.

[LSK]

29. actually when I looked, none were over 20mpg

And what I want is a REAL 4x4 regardless of size. They just do not make this vehicle.

[electron_blue]

35. Okay, so maybe you wouldn't consider this a REAL 4x4

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/toyota_rav4_4door4x4_2005/16085/style_overview.html;_ylt=AmoPXxYYy2vqzN8wQEStXKK0fb8F

[LSK]

39. no, a real 4x4 has low range

What you are showing me is useless on Colorado jeep trails.

[obxhead]

3. how would the tax credit work?

Is it a flat rate refund or would you base it on mileage?

[question everything]

7. Probably would be based on mileage

as with sales tax credit - either use a standard of, what 15,000 miles a year, or if you can actually keep all the receipts, actual expenses.

[obxhead]

18. Well I can't really say I'm with you on this one.

Maybe a huge luxury tax imposed at registration time on SUV's would be in order though. The tax of course should INCREASE with the age of the vehicle as the mileage generally gets worse with age.

[kestrel91316]

49. Well, my 18-yr-old Honda Accord (automatic)still gets 30-35 mpg hwy.

That's WAY better than the new ones.

Disclaimer: My city mileage now sucks, but I put very few city miles on it as I live 3 miles from work.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. old cars would benefit

My husband, who is a mechanic, says that cars got the best gas mileage about 10-15 years ago; the fuel efficiency has gone down since then. All I know is our 1990 Geo Prizm gets over 30 mpg in the mountains, and it has over 230K miles on the engine!

[iconoclastNYC]

13. Wrong.

The average MPG has gone down because of SUVs but if you compare cars weight for weight they are much more efficient these days. If you have compare apples to apples the technology has improved and hybreds take it to an even higher level.

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. NO

And for one very good reason - The insane gas prices raise the prices on everything else, as it is all shipped by air, truck, rail, or boat, all of which burn some petroleum derivative.

The price gouging is hitting independent truckers especially hard. Sure, they could apply for a tax credit as well, but they would be hit hard in the meantime.

Personally I'd like to slap the living shit out of every person who drives a gas guzzler without a valid reason. But making the rest of us pay for their sins isn't right, especially when it's the greedy oil company bastard thieves who SHOULD be suffering.

[question everything]

10. Truckers, like other businesses file tax return quarterly

so they should be able to apply this credit sooner.

In addition, if trucks have their own pumps at their warehouse, these pumps would be priced at the correct, market rate.

Same for jets that do not fill at the corner service station.

[NorCalDem]

15. Most trucks do not operate from a warehouse

all those 18 wheelers you see on the highway are filling up at the same stations you and I use. Raising the gas tax to simply force people into a energy conservationist mindset would only backfire horribly!

Let us tax the automobile PRODUCERS until they make cars with higher MPG ratings, not the average american worker who needs to hit those pumps to get to work!

[wordpix]

22. the auto producers will just pass the tax on to consumers, tho

[NorCalDem]

27. True

but it's still a better idea than directly taxing the consumer, isn't it?

[SoCalDem]

6. Just have two prices at the pump with a scale for the cars

The heavier the car, the more you pay.

If the vehicle is a "legitimate" work vehicle, you pay the lower price.. If it's a Hummer or another megabeast SUV, you pay the higher price.

That would pretty much insure than samller (more efficient) vehicles would pay a lower price, and the big 'ole gashogs would be parked more.

[onenote]

21. and who is going to enforce this?

Attendants at the gas station?

onenote

[SoCalDem]

23. The pumps would only dispense according to the weight

and if you had a "waiver" it could be handled through a card inserted into the credit card slot :)

[onenote]

28. so there would be scales installed in front of every pump?

I don't know how many retail outlets sell gas, but I'll conservatively estimate it to be 100,000 (2000 stations per state) on average. Let's assume each only has one pump (an obvious underestimate). If it costs $1000 to purchase, install, and maintain the scales (a wild guess on my part) -- that's $100 million dollars.

So, I don't see that as the answer.

onenote

[SoCalDem]

30. Most of those stations are owned by oil companies

I seem to recall that they have TONS of extra cash laying around..:)

[onenote]

37. I'd be curious to see the numbers on gas station ownership

You may be right that most gas stations are oil company owned, but there are a lot of independent gas retailers, either operating full service stations or convenience stores with one or two pumps, etc. These stations operate on very slim margins.

onenote

[pitohui]

41. whoo hoo i'd support this

someone close to me is heavily in the scale business

truck (vehicle) scales are way more than $1,000 -- try $100,000 per

why should b.f.e.e. get all the gouging gains?

<but seriously>

if you support $5 a gallon gas, you support tearing up the entire rocky mountains, drilling offshore california & florida, etc. because suddenly these options become not just economic but highly profitable

$5 a gallon gas will destroy what makes america america -- our landscapes & our wildnerness

won't do the canadian rockies much good either

even $3 a gallon is too high if prolonged to save our wilderness, ask wildlife officers in the rockies, they will tell you the drilling is getting crazy

cheaper gas plus investment in alternatives is the only way to save the future of our wilderness, some say alternatives won't work, well, in that case, there is no hope & we might as well all gouge each other for the few scraps remaining, but i prefer to advocate hope

[valerief]

8. MPGs on SUVs would zoom up on manufacturer reports

Of course, this would be on paper only. They'd still be only 15 MPG in real life (for those people who believe in infidel science).

[Fescue4u]

9. No thanks

Doubling the profits of the oil companys, wrecking our economy, and bankrupting millions of familes doesnt sound like a good way to make us less dependent on oil.

[question everything]

17. It would not go to the oil companies

everything above market price would go to the taxing authority that Will also issue the refund.

Basically, if anyone wants to drive a gas guzzler, fine, but they should realize the cost of it. The less you drive, the less it would cost you.

I admit, I have not thought this in details, just a general idea. We do not have to add special sales tax and be accused of "taxing the rich" (not that anything is wrong with it). We will not eliminate the use of these monsters, and thus being accused of interfering with the free exercise of using one's money as one wants.

All it will be - the more you drive these, the more it will cost you.

I cannot see how families would be bankrupt if they get whatever they pay back. At least the tax portion of it.

The real market price is a different nut altogether.

[NorCalDem]

20. Thank you, someone else who is reasonably intelligent

Raising gas to $5.00 just to limit our uses of it and to "punish" SUV drivers is such a horribly bad idea.

As I've said in this thread 3 times now, tax the automobile producers until they produce vehicles with high MPG ratings, and get an independent study to confirm that the MPG ratings quoted by the manufacturer are indeed correct.

All sales taxes hurt the poorest in our economy first because it's a fixed percentage of what you BUY, not what you EARN.

[iconoclastNYC]

11. Anything like this must include low-income offsets

Otherwise it's the low income people who can't buy new efficient cars who get screwed.

[question everything]

19. Agree. Especially with the recent cuts in food stamps

and the possible elimination of deductions of mortgage interest and local taxes.

But this will have to wait to the 2006 elections. Unless by some miracle some republicans will see the writing on the wall.

[recoveringrepublican]

34. Not just low income, middle class families would be killed also.

[NorCalDem]

12. Let's not get to $5.00 gas just to screw SUV drivers

of which, I happen to be one. I would like to get rid of it (I've had it for quite sometime) but simply cannot afford a new car at the moment. I'm a broke graduate student, I couldn't afford a new car and $5.00 gas. Howabout we tax automobile producers who ONLY produce SUV's or do not produce a sufficient number of vehicles that get good MPG ratings. That way we can force the industry to accept energy conservation as well, and not screw any unlucky bloke who happens to own one of these vehicles!

Just because I drive an SUV, doesn't mean I'm a Jesus freak or a RW fascist, I'm just another progressive who would love to own a Prius, but doesn't have $30,000 right now.

[iconoclastNYC]

16. Prius invoice price is 19K and change.

And SUV's wern't exactly cheap either so how did you afford that then? You could sell it and buy an efficient used Civic too.

I think you are presenting false choices here.

[wordpix]

24. no tax on SUVs but tax credits for vehicles getting 30 mpg or better

[NorCalDem]

26. Fine, I'll break it all down for you...

When I went to college as a freshman I had been saving money from summer jobs for a few years and along with some help from my parents (I'll admit that) I was able to buy a Jeep Cherokee. I took it to multiple "Camp Jeeps" and enjoyed taking her off-roading as well as using it as an everyday vehicle (we can't all own two). When I moved out to Cali a few years back to come to graduate school (meaning I don't make any money!) I couldn't buy another car just to fit in with the rest of the liberal bunch out here. I'm stuck with what I got, and I would love to buy something new, but quite simply I cannot afford it.

Have you ever heard of buyer's remorse, well I have it 6 years after the fact. Apparently, the fact that I still own this vehicle makes me a world-hating, "global-warming is good" freak. I apologize that I don't have $20,000 (plus insurance) to upgrade to something more suitable, I guess that makes me a bad person!

[LSK]

31. i bought an S10 blazer in 98 for 12k

And havnt had a car payment on it in 6 years. Its worth about $3k now. So why they hell should I have to take a $16k loss??? Why the hell should I have a car payment?

[NorCalDem]

42. Yeah buddy, fuck you because you can't afford a new one

That's the message that I've been getting from others in this thread, and quite frankly I'm shocked at their lack of knowledge on this issue.

Methinks that many here feel as if owning an SUV automatically makes you a rethuglican!

[dcfirefighter]

14. High oil tax reduces consumption, hurts lower incomes

Make it not hurt by giving everyone some money every quarter or so.

Tax of $0.25 / gallon would raise about $75 Billion. Split it up 300 million ways, and it's $225 a year.

While the price of everything would go up, the poor, who consume less, would be hit with a less than average increase; they would receive an exactly average credit - boosting their overall income.

The rich, who consume more, would be hit with a greater than average increase; they too would receive an exactly average credit.

Next year make it $0.50.

[newportdadde]

25. How about letting market forces do their thing instead?

Your already seeing it. Saw on TV the other night and instead of bragging to me about how if I buy XYZ SUV I can run into another family and kill all of them while I'm safe they actually bragged about MPG. A whole list of vechiles that get higher MPG from that company. I can't imagine that occuring 4 years ago.

The idea of $5 gas.. as it funnels through our economy even with the 'credit/rebate' makes me sick to my stomach.

[dcfirefighter]

32. Markets in natural resources don't work

The oil in the ground will not increase no matter what the price of crude goes to. Simple.

Markets work where there is competiton and no barriers to entry. They work very well. I love them. I'm always dissapointed when people fail to see the beauty of them. BUT....

They don't work for everything. They don't work for things that are not produced. We try and make them. Well, not really, but some rich folks got the economists in academia to try and make them...and now the scions of those rich folks are reaping the benefits of our ignorance.

Tax the crap out of crude oil. Tax the crap out of pollution. Auction rights to limited but nondepletable / renewable resources: Aquifers, radio waves, fishing and timber harvests, grazing rights, and land titles.

[newportdadde]

36. Market forces will work with the auto industry.

They are working, just look around you, hybrids... lots full of SUV and trucks nobody wants. Thats how I took the original post to be going for, a reduction in SUVs primarily. In that case as fuel costs get higher as the gas runs out the market will move out of SUVS/trucks for day to day use and to more fuel efficient cars.

[dcfirefighter]

40. True, they aren't natural resources

And as oil prices continue to rise, more efficient vehicles will be sold. However, we'll still be driving fossil fueled vehicles 12,000 miles a year just to get to work and bring home groceries.

And we'll still be using oil like it's only cost is what we pay at the pump.

And we'll still be pumping our earning back through exxon (who will take a big bite) and further onto the Saudi Royal Family.

[mduffy31]

44. That is already happening

there is a reason that GM has been posting huge losses in the last few quarters. They have only been producing "earthfuckyoumobiles" and many people cannot afford to drive a Hummer or Escalade.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

33. I take it you don't own a small business

where every penny extra put into your gas tank to get you to a client's site is a penny less profit on a job that's been bid at a fixed hourly rate.

So many pennies at so many miles driven means I have to raise my rates or get fewer jobs because it's simply not profitable to drive outside a certain (small, very contained) area.

Unless, of course, you're willing to pay me the difference out of your own vast funds....

[question everything]

48. No, I don't. However, we consider ourselves liberals because we think

beyond our immediate circles.

There are many liberals who are wealthy, who do not have to worry about their jobs, their access to health care, their retirement, or even the war in Iraq. Yet we, liberals, do not wait until we are hurt and then go screaming to the government to help us.

No, we think outside our immediate needs, our family and friends and our communities.

My proposal and, admittedly, just came to me when I read that people are starting to purchase more SUV now that price of gas has eased, is based on the fact that the supply of oil is limited.

We, in the U.S., consume a lot more oil than our proportional population. And we are alarmed when, all of a sudden, China starts consuming more.

The only way to slow the consumption, at least until we can come with alternative energy sources, is to limit it. And one way is to limit the use of gas guzzlers unless absolutely necessary for business or for rural area.

And, as we have seen in the past few months, the increase in gas price did caused reduction in purchasing of SUVs. Enough to get GM and Ford shaking. And is it possible that the reduction in consumption of gasoline caused the reduction in price? The good old law of Supply and Demand?

No, it is not punishing SUV owners for their excess. Such approach will never be accepted by the most Americans. It is just saying that if you are going to use more of the limited resource you will have to pay for it.

As I was reading through the posts I was wondering how we can exempt the trucks and those who really need to own these cars.

I think that I saw this in Europe someplace. Drivers of company owned cars had special codes that they punched at the pump to charge the gasoline directly to their employer.

We can provide truckers and business owners with such a code so that they would pay the market price. Oh, sure, it will be abused. What will prevent trucker Mike to use the same code for wife Penny's Yukon?

But nothing is perfect. System abuse are part of a society, any society.

Perhaps this proposal is not ideal. But we really need to think about the limited resources. Yes, we had something like that in the late 70s and this was when many switched to small, fuel efficient Japanese sedans, dumping the huge Detroit V-8s. But this was before drilling started in the North Sea.

I don't know that there are still unexplored oil fields. And this is one reason why the amount available from Saudi Arabia is a state secret.

On the other hand, it is possible that the gasoline used by the SUV and the Hummers is a drop in the bucket. Certainly around me sedans are in the minority.

[derby378]

38. It's essentially a big tax hike on poor people

The wealthiest 1% will just shrug it off while those on Skid Row who are lucky to afford any type of car will take a direct hit in the wallet.

[recoveringrepublican]

46. agreed. I love how people assume that if others

just bought a fuel efficient vehicle, $5/gal wouldn't effect them. I drive as little as I possibly can, even before gas hit as high as it is. That said I have a 80 mile commute (round trip) as does my husband. Don't tell me to move closer to work unless one is willing to fork over the $300K for a new house. Don't tell me to ride the bus, I get off at 4am, and unfortunately Tampa and Pinellas county don't start service until maybe 5am (I know pinellas is 5:15 for the earliest pickup in my town). Not to mention I have to be home in time for husband to leave for work. Don't tell me to get a job closer to home, trust me I've tried, NO ONE pays as much OR offers the kind of hours that allow for my husband and I to take care of our kids (I work night, my husband days)

$5/gal would kill my family even if I drove a freaking Insight. Right now we are doing "ok". Able to save a little, have shelter, clothes, and food. $5/gal would eat up any extra money and then some.

[mduffy31]

43. Tell you what

You make it $5.00 a gallon and you help me when winter comes here to Northern MN and I have to drive the truck to just get to the grocery store. Sometimes having a 4X4 is necessary.

[TX-RAT]

45. Don't tax him, don't tax me, tax that man behind the tree.

[Nikia]

47. It would hurt people in rural areas

Often there isn't public transportation. They may have long commutes to work. Activities or shopping may be a long distance away.