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FORGET OLD INTEL! It was inoperable the moment weapons inspectors went in

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:29 PM
Original message
FORGET OLD INTEL! It was inoperable the moment weapons inspectors went in
Edited on Fri Nov-11-05 12:36 PM by blm
Keep it simple, Dems.

It doesn't matter what old intel Clinton was reading, or what new intel Bush was fixing....it was all INOPERABLE the moment that weapons inspectors went into Iraq and started reporting back with ACCURATE, REAL TIME FACTS.

Bush invaded Iraq even after REAL TIME FACTS reported back to him every day for TWO MONTHS showed that military action was NOT NECESSARY.

Keep it simple. They have no answer for this fact - NONE.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. WHAT DID THE INSPECTORS FIND?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Hey underpants.....
I'm on alot of ignore lists. I'm afraid this point is being missed by the greater Du community.

Do you think you can repost it....since you are terminally popular? ;)
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. I really doubt that BLM
I find your posts mostly great and informative - even though I may not agree with you on everything. I have a hard time beleiveing that many DUers would have you on ignore.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. heheh...thanks...I wish it were as true as you believe.
.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Checks blm's report card
uh oh says here doesn't play well with others tsk tsk tsk


:bounce:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. heheheheh....sorry about that....but, I really do try to be nice.
really.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent point, blm. One we all need to repeat...er...repeatedly! n/t
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Repeatedly and then some.
.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great point and easy to understand - the op-research below goes
over the heads of our media, apparently.

Got to keep it simple - Bush lies - intel not the same!

========================================================

Shoring up his credibility, casting his critics as hypocrites, and I guess rejecting the (Daschle)Lawrence J. Korb plan (Center for American Progress) to withdraw 80,000 troops from Iraq next year, with most of the rest leaving by the end of 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/11/politics/11policy.html

November 11, 2005

His Image Tarnished, Bush Seeks to Restore Credibility

By RICHARD W. STEVENSON and DAVID S. CLOUD

WASHINGTON, Nov. 10 - <snip>In a Veterans Day speech on Friday in Pennsylvania, Mr. Bush will take on a new round of accusations by Democrats that he exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons programs, a senior administration official said Thursday, conceding that the Democrats' attack had left more Americans with doubts about Mr. Bush's honesty.

"It will be the most direct refutation of the Democrat charges you've seen probably since the election," the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to outline a strategy that has not yet become public and will play out over several weeks through presidential speeches, close coordination with Republicans on Capitol Hill and a stepped-up effort by the Republican National Committee.<snip>

<snip>
The White House's effort to stop the erosion is centered on defining the president's critics as Democrats who voted for the war based on the same intelligence Mr. Bush saw but have switched positions, often under pressure from their party's left wing.

"I point out that some of the critics today believed themselves in 2002 that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction," Stephen J. Hadley, the national security adviser, said Thursday at a news briefing. "They stated that belief, and they voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq because they believed Saddam Hussein posed a dangerous threat to the American people. For those critics to ignore their own past statements, exposes the hollowness of their current attacks."


====================================================================
BUT BACK AT THE MEDIA THEY HAVE A FEW FACTS THAT BUSH FORGETS
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2242127

When conservatives are asked about the "intelligence" used by the Bush Administration to convince Congress and the American people of the urgent need to fight the Iraq War, the response is almost always spin.

Blame George Tenet (and mention that he was a Clinton appointee). Point out that "everyone" thought that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Claim that Congressional Democrats were given "the same information" as the Bush Administration. Argue that there's been "no proof" that the Bush Administration manipulated or cherry-picked information in stating its case for a pre-emptive strike.

It's all a bunch of hooey. Wild flailing of arms and a wilder array of claims, all designed to throw blame on anyone but the administration's inner circle.

***

The subject of what the administration knew and when it knew it came up again a few days ago with revelations regarding Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a captured Al Qaeda commander whose claims about poison-gas training for the Qaeda group by Saddam’s government formed the basis for some of the most dramatic arguments used by senior administration officials in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.

Is it possible that the administration knew, as early as February 2002, that al-libi was a liar?

At that time, a four-page DIA Defense Intelligence Terrorism Summary stated it was “likely” al-Libi was “intentionally misleading” his debriefers and might be describing scenarios “that he knows will retain their interest.” The report was circulated at the time throughout the U.S. intelligence community and that a copy would have been sent to the National Security Council.

President Bush first referred to al-Libi's claims in his Oct. 7, 2002, speech in Cincinnati where he strongly emphasized Saddam’s ties to international terror groups in general and Al Qaeda in particular. “We’ve learned that Iraq has trained Al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases,” Bush said.

The claim about poison-gas training resurfaced four months later in greatly expanded form during a particularly dramatic portion of then Secretary of State Colin Powell’s Feb. 5, 2003, speech to the UN Security Council that refers exclusively to al-Libi — although he is not actually identified by name.

But according to the newly declassified documents, the credibility of those statements by Bush and Powell were already in doubt within the U.S. intelligence community. While the DIA was the first to raise red flags in its February 2002 report, the CIA itself in January 2003 produced an updated version of a classified internal report called “Iraqi Support for Terrorism.” The previous version of this CIA report in September 2002 had simply included al-Libi’s claims, according to the newly declassified agency document. But the updated January 2003 version, while including al-Libi’s claims that Al Qaeda sent operatives to Iraq to acquire chemical and biological weapons and training, added an important new caveat: It “noted that the detainee was not in a position to know if any training had taken place,” according to the copy of the document obtained by Newsweek.

As Newsweek first reported last July, al-Libi has since recanted those claims. The CIA “'recalled and reissued' all its intelligence reporting about al-Libi’s “recanted” claims about chemical and biological warfare training by Saddam’s regime in February 2004 — an important retreat on pre-Iraq war intelligence that has never been publicly acknowledged by the White House," the magazine reports.

***

This is not the first time that Americans have learned that the administration made urgent claims about the need to go to war -- claims not backed up by the National Intelligence Estimate.

As the Washington Post pointed out nearly two years ago, President Bush and Vice President Cheney on several occasions made what were later learned to be questionable claims in 2002:

-- On Sept. 24, 2002, at the White House, Bush referred to a British government report that Iraq could launch "a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order" is given -- and went on to say, "Each passing day could be the one on which the Iraqi regime gives anthrax or VX -- nerve gas -- or someday a nuclear weapon to a terrorist ally."

But in repeating the British claim that Iraq's chemical weapons could be activated within 45 minutes, he ignored the fact that U.S. intelligence mistrusted the source and that the claim never appeared in the October 2002 U.S. estimate.

-- On Aug. 26, 2002, Cheney said: "Many of us are convinced that Saddam will acquire nuclear weapons fairly soon." The estimate, several weeks later, would say it would take as many as five years, unless Baghdad immediately obtained weapons-grade materials.

In the same speech, Cheney raised the specter that Hussein would give chemical or biological weapons to terrorists, a prospect invoked often in the weeks to come. "Deliverable weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a terror network, or a murderous dictator, or the two working together, constitute as grave a threat as can be imagined," Cheney said.

It would be more than a month later that a declassified portion of the NIE would show that U.S. intelligence analysts had forecast that Hussein would give such weapons to terrorists only if Iraq were invaded and Hussein faced annihilation. "The probability of him initiating an attack . . . in the foreseeable future . . . I think would be low," a senior CIA official told the Senate intelligence committee during a classified briefing on the estimate on Oct. 2, 2002.

-- On Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney said of Hussein on NBC's Meet the Press: "We do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon." Cheney was referring to the aluminum tubes that some analysts believed could be used for a centrifuge to help make nuclear materials; others believed they were for an antiaircraft rocket. Such absolute certainty, however, did not appear in the estimate.

-- The October 2002 estimate said: "We had no specific information on the types or quantities of weapons, agents, or stockpiles at Baghdad's disposal."

But Bush, in his 2003 State of the Union, said: "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents."

***

Which brings us to the spin. CNN reported on Nov. 8 that White House aides, speaking anonymously, said they hoped to increase what they called their "hit back" in coming days. One main theme: to say that Democrats had access to the same information as the Bush Administration.

This bit of spin has been ongoing for almost as long as it's been known that there were no substantial ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, and that our inspectors could not find evidence of WMD.

For example, Fox News Channel's chief Washington correspondent, Jim Angle, reported as fact on Nov. 2 that the Democrats saw "the same intelligence reports" as the administration.

ANGLE: Democrats charge administration officials exaggerated the intelligence in order to sell the war, but in late 2002, Democrats, using the same intelligence reports, issued statements almost indistinguishable from the president's.

A Nov. 3 Wall Street Journal editorial claimed, "The scandal here isn't what happened before the war. The scandal is that the same Democrats who saw the same intelligence that Mr. Bush saw, who drew the same conclusions, and who voted to go to war are now using the difficulties we've encountered in that conflict as an excuse to rewrite history."

But this claim is bogus.

As The New Republic reported in 2003: "Senators were outraged to find that intelligence info given to them omitted the qualifications and countervailing evidence that had characterized the classified version and played up the claims that strengthened the administration's case for war."

According to Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D-PA), many House members were only convinced to support the war after the Administration "showed them a photograph of a small, unmanned airplane spraying a liquid in what appeared to be a test for delivering chemical and biological agents." The magazine reports that the U.S. Air Force told the Administration it "sharply disputed the notion that Iraq's UAVs were being designed as attack weapons." But Congress didn't know the USAF opinion at the time it voted.

And what about the spin that "everyone" thought that Iraq had WMD? Not true.

The Washington Post reported in 2003 that the International Atomic Energy Agency and the United Nations each repeatedly told the Administration it had no evidence that Iraq possessed WMD.

For example, in March 2003, the Associated Press reported that "U.N. weapons inspectors have not found any 'smoking guns' in Iraq during their search for weapons WMD." AP also reported, "U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said his teams have not uncovered any WMD." A month earlier, IAEA Director Mohamed ElBaradei said nuclear experts have found "no indication" that Iraq has tried to import high-strength aluminum tubes for centrifuge enrichment of uranium.

***

Who's at fault when it comes to pre-war "intelligence?"

Conservative pundits and administration spokespeople will spend a lot of time over the next few weeks flailing their arms and pointing fingers at anyone they can. Better to confuse the American people with empty conservative spin that face simple facts. Because there are plenty of facts that suggest that the White House inner circle played games with the "intelligence" at the time, in order to scare Congress and the American people into supporting this war.

***

This item first appeared at Journalists Against Bush's B.S.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Our Dem. representatives in Congress better start earning
their pay. This bush bunch is fu-king this country and some Dems are accomplices. We want our representatives to do just that, represent us that voted for them. Let the chips fall where they may, this may be their last chance. Bush once again is lying and trying to scramble the minds of the wannabes believers. Most of us can count approximately 10 dems in congress that shout out for us, what's with the rest?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. Thanks, papau...can you help spread it?
.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. The next point to make is that "they lied, and our children, brothers,
sisters, husbands, wives, and lovers are dying.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Exactly - we need to keep it this simple for the LAZY MEDIA.
.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. exactly, this is really about violating the IWR and finding no WMD
"SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."


http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686


Hans Blix report in March 2003:
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Hans Blix submitted the only ACCURATE INTEL REPORT to Bush and Bush
wiped his ass with it.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. thanks for posting from the IWR
We need reminding of what bush could or shouldn't do.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. problem is that media never acknowledges that Bush HAD guidelines to meet
and did everything he could to evade those guidelines.

He did not do his job to administer the IWR with any integrity whatsoever..
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kicking.
.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Helping
:kick:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Grazie.
As always.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. If we're going to put together DU talking points for responding to...
...the constant flow of NeoCon disinformation, this point needs to be somewhere near the top of the list.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I agree, get the truth out for a change
simle explanations, bush's intel vs. the actual intel from all our intel agencies - there are so many. Cherry picking was a good term to describe what bush did.

Need to repeat that bush ousted the inspectors to bomb Iraq before they were able to finish the job the U.N. sent them on.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Ok, Media Lies...we can do this.....
I really hope Dems get hold of this simple truth before too long.

Sometimes things are SO simple that they're easy to miss.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. kick
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. Absolutely true
And we need to keep driving home the point that Bush pulled the inspectors out when they were reporting that there were no WMDs.

He sent them there because he had to, then yanked them out in a huff because they weren't telling him the information he wanted to hear.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Exactly -- That's why the more Sadaam opened up, the more Bush resisted
Everytime Sadaam backed down and made a concession to allow inspections, the hotter the Bush administration turned up the heat.

"He's cooperating, so that means he really isn't cooperating" was the line they kept giving.

That seemed papently phony to me at the time. I think now it reinforces your point that instead of really wanting to find the answers, the administration did everything possible to hinder real objective inspections.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Agree and well put
As I read these comments they make so much sense in such few words. Keep the ideas coming. We need reminding of all the errors that were made by bush from the beginning.
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. That's right. But even then...
Just prior to 9/11, Rice and Powell are both quoted as saying that Hussein was not a threat, that inspections and sanctions had worked to contain him. That's intel which is not that old.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. and do you ever hear the media mention those quotes?
.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. And he refused to allow them to finish the investigation.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. I can make it much more simple, or even simpler, or the simplest.
The weapons inspectors were the best, most detailed, most current source of intelligence on WMD.

The Shrubs have convinced us that the weapons inspections were not a source of intelligence. They were the primary source of intelligence.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. And you did it well. We NEED to spread this to Ds before Sunday talkshows.
.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. Importantly, it was Bush who ordered the weapons inspectors last out...
They were on the ground performing their charge, when Bush called the start of the invasion. That, more than anything, proved the charade that Bush played around WMDs.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Absolutely, but Dem pundits get dragged into the intel debate WITHOUT
realizing that NONE of the intel mattered and it was ALL inoperable the moment weapons inspectors started reporting back with REAL FACTS.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
35. kick
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. and another kick
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
37. And, the moment special ops went into Iraq
They always go in before full scale military action. What did the special ops find? What sites did they recon that showed no WMD? How many locations did this happen with?

Any General whose war plan didn't include securing known WMD locations is guilty of dereliction of duty, at the least. Why didn't this happen?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Right, it wasn't JUST the weapons inspectors at that point.
.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
39. I use that response everytime some Freeper pulls out the 1998 quotes
I ask them, "So, we invaded on 5 year-old intelligence? That's pretty damned irresponsible of the administration."
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