Not your ordinary smoking ban thread.

[skids]

This one's going to start out with the elephant in the room, so noone can ignore it.

Where's the smoke? You can't see it. You can't smell it. But people are smoking. It is a remarkable sensation at Sunset Station Hotel & Casino, the newest of four Station casinos in Las Vegas. When you walk through the 80,000 square-foot casino, you could swear you were in a non-smoking facility. It didn't happen by chance. Comfort and ambiance were the primary goals of Station's management and they couldn't be happier with the outcome.

...

While extraordinary results suggest that new technologies may have been used in Sunset Station, the fact is the success is based on good, sound engineering practices. Finnegan describes it as, "...simply taking a common sense approach to achieving good indoor air quality. For example, we used 95 percent filtration which we found works as well as active smoke removal systems and electronic filtration in many applications. Combined with high levels of outside air, we created the indoor atmosphere we were looking for. The fact that we're modulating outside air with indoor air quality sensors is another big plus. It's a good system for enhanced indoor air quality."

...

Air filtration is only part of the story. The central station air handlers are fitted with an integral, factory-mounted air monitoring and control system called Traq™ that modulates the amount of ventilation air entering the building. With the help of the Tracer Summit® building automation system, the Traq system is able to dynamically adjust the outside air to satisfy building ventilation requirements. An active part of the system uses volatile organic compounds (VOC) sensors to detect organic materials. It senses a broad field of particulates and responds by increasing the amount of outside air brought into the building. Outgassing of VOC's is especially prevalent in the casino, with all of the special materials used to carry the theme throughout the complex. Another active part of the system polls each of the more than 450 variable air volume (VAV) terminal units looking for the most open variable air volume damper. The data is collected at the Tracer® system which adjusts the duct static pressure setpoint for each air handling unit. The supply fan then generates only enough pressure to get the required flow through this "critical" VAV terminal. This assures that no zones are starved for air, yet allows the central station air handlers to operate at the lowest possible energy level.

http://www.trane.com/commercial/library/sunset_casino.asp

Would you ban smoking in this establishment?

[niyad]

1. gee, I wonder why it took them so long-but not surprised that a group of

casinos would lead the way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. What's practical in Las Vegas might not be so practical

... in Minnesota or Seattle.

[skids]

5. But might be...

...in Southern California.

[Codeine]

2. I've been in Vegas casinos

and this one would have to be *worlds* better to impress me.

[GrumpyGreg]

3. I like smoke filled rooms---this place sounds too healthy for me. LOL

[Selatius]

6. To be frank, I'd leave it up to business owners

I'd just request a seat in the non-smoking section, or I'd not patronize the establishment.

[merwin]

7. There's an old saying: Sitting in the non-smoking section of a restaurant

is like sitting in the non-peeing section of a pool.
:toast: :hide:

[Verve]

12. LOL! Love that analogy, Merwin!

:rofl:

[skids]

13. Yes. That is an old saying.

Very old.

So old it might even be obselete.

[MisterP]

14. only if we've invented entropy-free cigarette smoke

[skids]

15. Care to explain?

How entropy allows you to claim that it's impossible to acheive acceptable air quality, in the face of it actually having been done in an establishment that doesn't even have non-smoking areas?

Sounds like a faith-based argument to me. What's the Church of Entropy up to these days?

:eyes:

[MisterP]

20. eh?

[TahitiNut]

16. Don't swim in the ocean ...

... fish pee in it.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Yeah, and a lot of gamblers smoke

The 2 activities seem to go hand in hand. This might not be practical for other types of establishments, but it would be a great thing for casinos.

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. I'd definitely have to see it to believe it.

If it works as advertised, I'd guess the system would be so complex and expensive that only a Vegas casino could afford it. I don't see it being applicable to much smaller bars or restaraunts as an alternative to a smoking ban.

[skids]

11. RTFA.

The system is nothing special, not horribly more expensive, and doesn't do anything that shouldn't be done this day and age in any modern building, for reasons other than smoking (VOCs, particulates, etc.)

Maybe voters should pass "minimum air quality" standards instead, with spot tests (and a reasonable phase-in for old construction.) It would be a heck of a lot more productive use of their time.

[Carolab]

10. How do they handle it in Europe?

I have read there are nonsmoking establishments but many countries/cities in Europe still allow smoking.

Seems it would be a bit difficult to engineer adequate venting in centuries-old buildings there.

[TahitiNut]

17. It's no accident that the first smokling bans on airplanes ...

... started following the airlines cutting down drastically on outside air ventilation (and heating) to save fuel during the first "oil crisis" in the 70s. Pilots were generously incentivized to save fuel.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. If you can fix the smoke problem some other way

I see no reason for a ban.

[drhilarius]

19. A perfectly reasonable compromise...

1)Cigarettes, across the board, are taxed to an insane degree. That revenue should be used for prevention (keep kids from smoking)and subsidizing ventilation systems. Large/ popular bars that make x amount annual would have to pony up 50% of the cost, the state covers the rest. Restaurants would remain smoke free, and small bars (i.e. ones that could not afford the ventilation system) would be exempt.

2)a little anecdotal evidence to the efficacy of ventilation systems: My girlfriend and I went to a small restaurant during the week of it's opening. My girlfriend lamented the lack of a smoking section (I, however, don't smoke in restaurants). About a month later we went back and saw a row of people smoking at the bar. We asked when did they start allowing cigarettes. Bartender said they always had. We then commented on the fact that the place didn't smell of smoke, wasn't the least bit hazy. Bartender pointed up at the ventilation system. Now this is a small restaurant, the distance from the bar to the other end of the restaurant is about 15 feet, and you couldn't smell a thing (and this was not a consequence of "smoker's nose", our non-smoking friends couldn't smell it either). These systems work.