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If globalization WAS about improving the world, rather than greed,

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:05 PM
Original message
Poll question: If globalization WAS about improving the world, rather than greed,
would YOU be in favor of it?
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. IF it was about RISING standards of living for workers and environmental
Edited on Thu Nov-10-05 08:09 PM by Vincardog
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Exactly.
If people in India and China earned a fair wage and benefits and had worker rights we would not have this problem. Our standard of living should not go down because of globalization---their's should go up.
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Alonzo Fyfe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Why Not?
Sorry, I have to ask this.

Why not?

I mean, we seem to generally be in favor of taxing the rich to help the poor. What would we say to a bunch of corporate executives who said, "Our standard of living should not have to go down so that the standard of living for the bottom 20% can go up?"

My guess is that our response would not be very flattering.

Alonzo Fyfe
Atheist Ethicist Blog
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I am not saying rich people should stop
Edited on Thu Nov-10-05 08:43 PM by calico1
being rich. We will always have rich people. I am saying that the middle class in this country should not have to see its standard of living (wages, medical insurance, etc.) go down because of globalization as is happening right now. The rich execs pay slave wages to people in Third World countries and very low wages American companies can't compete with in developing countries. If these workers were paid better wages and had better worker protections there would be less of an incentive for execs to export all the jobs they are sending over there. That's all I am saying. Globalization can be a good thing for developing countries with better worker protections and better wages. Right now, we are losing our jobs and they are getting exploited while rich execs get richer. I don't want Bill Gates and the like to be poor. I just want them to be fair.
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Alonzo Fyfe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I still don't get it.
You wrote, "If these workers were paid better wages and had better working protections, then there would be less of an incentive for exects to export all the jobs they are sending over there."

But, doesn't this mean that they will have no jobs, which means that they will have no wages?

How does depriving them of jobs help them in any way?


Now, don't get me wrong. I am very much opposed to the type of "corporate feudalism" that current advocates of "free trade" want to establish in other countries. I have nothing good to say where multi-billion dollar companies purchase the right to treat the citizens of other countries like serfs.

However, I do not see any merit in a solution that says, "Keep all of the wealth over here and leave none for them."

Both options, to me, seem equally problematic.

Sometimes, to bring equality, you need to redistribute the wealth. If a reduction in the standard of living in America can bring great benefit to the poor and starving people of other countries, then I find it hard to argue that it should not be done.

Alonzo Fyfe
Atheist Ethicist Blog
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. What don't you get? Slave wages are good for no one.
Edited on Thu Nov-10-05 10:07 PM by Vincardog
The present way "Globalization" is used is to enslave the whole world all to serve the purposes of the top one half of one percent of the wealthiest people.

Destroying the American Middle class so the richest can get richer serves no one but the richest. Free trade does not equal FAIR trade.

How does destroying the biggest market in the world for the sake of low prices help anyone in the long run?

You say "If a reduction in the standard of living in America can bring great benefit to the poor and starving people of other countries, then I find it hard to argue that it should not be done."

May be it it brought a rising standard of living to those starving people of other countries, but the reality is that it does not. The current system brings all the environmental degradation to their world with none of the benefit.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. For Alonzo Fyfe
Edited on Thu Nov-10-05 11:07 PM by davekriss
I don't know exactly where it stands as of 2005, but recent numbers show that the U.S. amounts to 6% of the world's population yet controls about 35% of it's wealth. Further, in the U.S., a thin sliver (the top 1%) own more than the bottom 80% combined. So, yes, I am -- and many here -- are in favor of leveling the benefits people everywhere gain from our social arrangements. Me, I say eat the rich!

(I add on edit that the preservation of this imbalance is what's behind American foriegn policy since WWII; preservation of advantage is what drives past and present policies in East Timor and Indonesia; Chile and Greece; El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and Nicaragua; Panama and Haiti; Iraq and Iraq and Iraq ... blood pours so the worldwide owning class retains advantage, advances still further, and feels secure.)

But the poll setup here gives a set of false choices. I mean, hypnotoad might as well have added a choice saying "what if George W Bush is all about finding a cure for cancer?" or "what if Saddam Hussein was really about advancing love for kittens, would we support him then?".

Globalization is NOT about creating more equitable outcomes over a growing prosperity pie.

What it is about is creating cover for a thin sliver of the planet to magnify and gain from their exploitative advantage over the rest of the planet.

Think about it. Globalism would state that free and unfettered flow of capital across national boundaries is a greater good. We should, it posits (to oversimplify), build factories in nations with the lowest production costs, period. But to who's benefit? If, for example, I can build a factory in country x where the right wing dictator ensures me there will be no onerous penalties for polluting the local waters and air, where labor will be content to work at 1% of wages required in my country, and said dictator tells me he will be sure to squash any pesky populist aspirations (by applying the skills he learned at SOA in Ft. Benning, Georgia, no doubt), then it is my fiduciary responsibility (ahem) to sharpen my pencils, calculate the additional costs of managing distant operations and shipping product over wide distances and, if the numbers work, then close my factories in Detroit and Knoxville and Cleveland and build them in the distant Peoples Republic of Sadistic Greed.

But wait a moment. Where is the policies that state labor can freely follow capital, go where the jobs are? No, labor is stuck in so many livestock pens ready for exploitation by the owners of capital. The latter can and indeed do pit one nation's labor pool against another, force them to compete on price, and by so competing it becomes a race to the bottom -- the least if any benefits, the lowest wages, the worst working conditions.

The thin global sliver (the owners of capital and the sliver of managers and magistrates that do their bidding) benefit by greatly reducing inputs into the cost of production (thereby increasing profit), but the many lose. It's taking standard of living from Joe Sixpack and giving it to capital and management, though leaving some crumbs (sometimes substantial) to the desperate in various exploited nations.

(Yes, the pie grows, economic production becomes more "efficient", but it is setting us up, all, for a horrendous crisis in effective demand -- aka, another Great Depression. It's just around the bend, there, up the road...)

So: I am all for advancing global change that does raise most boats even if the top tiers of our societies have to be a little less prosperous, but that is NOT what globalism is designed to do.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Compared to the execs, the rest of us make peanut brittle...
Edited on Thu Nov-10-05 11:25 PM by HypnoToad
Not even peanuts.

It has to be trickle down; from the top. Not from the middle. And in the name of altruism, not petty greed.

Most of us have to make due with $30k/yr. The execs have anywhere from $300,000/yr to $30,000,000,000 OR MORE.

Indeed. $25 million, aka the typical "golden parachute" an exec gets once he's asked to leave the company he fucked it up, is $30k/yr for 833 years. Eight hundred, thirty three years. Boy, I wish I got that amount when fucking up the company I work for...

Your question is most valid, however. But once you add in real-life numbers, your point falls flat.

The middle class need not be exterminated just so the undeveloped countries can be exploited at 1/10th the cost of what the comparable American makes.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Who would be saying it was 'improving the world'?
I mean, right now the people/corporations who are globalizing think it is good for the world, they make their arguments for it and I am sure many of them truly believe it (bringing technology to primitive people! YAY! :sarcasm: ).

So in hypothetical HypnoToad world, who's version of 'improvement' are we using?

I just can't see this as a simple question, because I think it is all relative...
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Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why call yourself "anti-globalist"?
Are you against a global and more integrated and connected world, or are you against the imperialism and economic structure of the current one?

There's a difference, you guys know.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Imperialism, naturally.
:7

But the "globalization" afoot is about imperialism. Not integration or connection. I know that. Most of us DUers know that. The media (the one that's bought and paid for by the highest bidder because they don't want the consequences of freedom, which is having a viewpoint that's not friendly to their goals) can shovel out the "integrated and connected" bushwa all it wants. The callous truth is that it is about imperialism, period.

And not just imperialism. They want the benefits of this crude exploitation while remaining here in the USA at home.

It's the usual disgusting "We want everything for nothing" scenario. The want of everything but refuse to pay a reasonable price.

BTW: Eschew semantics. :evilgrin:
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. Possibly, as long as it wasn't detrimental to being able to live
well or to local culture
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. I voted "Other" because it's the effect which counts,
not whether there are good intentions.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Same here...
The road to hell is paved by good intentions.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. No good deed goes unpunished either.
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nguoihue Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. Globalization
and "free trade", if it were actually free trade, will be the great equalizer. There will be winners and losers. The winners will be the developing countries, the losers will be the already developed consuming countries.

At present a factory working in a developing nation might earn the equivalent of $200 to $300 per month while someone in a high-tech, developed consumer oriented country might easily earn 10 times this doing the same job.

Why would people willing work for such low wages? Because before having the opportunity to work for a multi-national company they earned much less. They lives have improved and they can take better care of their families. Investment will flow to the countries with lower production costs and their living standards will increase.

We have already seen this in the US in recent decades as manufacturing has departed the Rust Belt and fled to the Sun Belt states or out of the country.

Is this good or bad? I guess it depends on where you are.
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