My God...the genius of that (or, on the Jordan bombings)

[alcibiades_mystery]

Way back when this war still seemed young, when we barely knew the letters IED, when an American killed in Baghdad was still a breathtaking event rather than the steady horror of morning news, some group - presumably insurgents - detonated a truck bomb outside the undefended UN headquarters in Baghdad. Killed in the attack was Sergio Vieira de Mello, head of the UN's humanitarian mission in Iraq. Also killed was that first innocence of the new war, and any illusion that the war was over. The UN pulled its people out shortly thereafter. This bombing was followed close upon by a bombing of the Red Cross/Red Crescent building, and that organization soon pulled its non-Iraqi staff as well. T^he goal was obvious: make presence in Iraq extremely "expensive" for anybody coordinating with the Coalition Provisional Authority. I said at the time, arguing against those who supposed both bombings to be CIA or US plots, that they were in fact brilliant moves by the insurgents. They effectively began the international isolation of the US Iraqi mission, stripped it of its humanitarian pretentions, and left it afloat with little international legitmacy. Obviously, to say this by no means endorses these attacks. One can marvel at an evil strategem for its strategic acuity at the same time that one condemns its for its evil means and ends. I was reminded, in any case, of the famous Brando monologue at the close of Apocalypse Now, thus:

It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face, and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and mortal terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies t o be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces--it seems a thousand centuries ago--we went into a camp to inoculate it. The children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us, and he was crying. He couldn't say why. We went there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile--a pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it, I never want to forget. And then I realized--like I was shot...like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, "My God, the genius of that. The genius. The will. To do that." Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized that they were stronger than we. That they could stand that--these were not monsters, these were men, trained cadres, these men who fought with their hearts, who have families, who have children, who are filled with love--that they had this strength. The strength! To do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, then our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral and at the same time were able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling, without passion, without judgment. Without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.

I argue today that these bombings in Amman are part of the same strategy, now extended. A much strengthened insurgency has just put the world on notice. We have reach, they're saying. So why Amman? For the same reason they hit the UN building in Baghdad. For the same reason they hit the Red Cross building. Before those heady days of August 2003, foreign workers may have felt some security in Iraq. Now they have to be paid in the tens of thousands, and truck around with all manner of soldiers of fortune.

Before today, one could travel to Amman, live in relative comfort in a world city, hit the cocktail party circuits (yes, they have them in Amman) - almost relive the glory days of Western colonialism...all the while servicing and shuttling into and out of Iraq. Those days are over. As of this afternoon. Now, if you want to do your business from Amman, you will watch over your shoulder, if your husband or wife let's you go at all. Or perhaps you will not have the fortitude. Amman - a resting place - is now Amman, a theater of operations. I suspect we haven't seen the last of the attacks on the city, unfortunately. And again, the only thing to say here is My God, the genius of that. The genius. The will. To do that....

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

1. The sheer will to face down a horrific enemy

is what lost the war for us in Viet Nam. They truly would have fought to the last person.

The horror. The horror.

[WiseButAngrySara]

2. I'm weeping and speechless. K & R ....n/t

[GrpCaptMandrake]

3. A geuninely brilliant, thought-provoking post

Is it possible that the Busheviks were, in a sick, sad, twisted, misguided way, correct?

Is it possible that there is a very real hunger for change in the Middle East? That they yearn to be free of the oppression of old, outdated artificially, externally supported monarchies?

Could it be that what we see in the genuinely "selfless" acts of the suicide bombers the same desperate urge to throw off a tyrant that we recognize in the U.S. in Nathan Hale's comment "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country?"

Is it possible that there can be self-determination WITHOUT the guidance of the West? Can democracy develop outside the Athenian/Roman/American model?

Could it be that, ever since the first CIA-backed coup, the Dulles Boys affair that overthrew Mossadegh in the early 1950s in Tehran, we've developed an ugly, rotten, deadly, worldwide habit of backing the wrong horse?

Had we anything approaching a "moral" intelligence service, might we be truly fostering the urges for freedom of people who labor under the Wahabist lash in Saudi Arabia?

All these things your trenchant comments engendered. Thanks.

[SoCalDem]

5. What we needed to do was help them develop their oil, and GTHO

The middle east is thousands of years old cultures, all rubbing up against each other..like a dance.. they know the rythym...the beat..

We are the two-steppers who come in and stomp all over their feet, and then wonder why no one asks us to dance.

We should ahev just been their willing customers. They have oil, they cannot eat it. They MUST sell it.. WE need it..end of story

Their culture changes verfy little in a very long time. ours changes at a breakneck speed, with no looking back further than last quarter.

We are NOT a "fit", and we do not belong there...in any capacity.

Never did..never will

[madeline_con]

8. "Their culture changes verfy little in a very long time"

They got roads, schools, hospitals, cars, malls and cell phones about the same time we did.

They're suffering from the same trhing we are. Religious zealots out to rule them.

"... all rubbing up against each other..."

Good Muslims don't rub up against each other. ;)

[SoCalDem]

13. ...

:rofl:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

12. The saddest part is

that the U.S. took the single sanest tack toward the Middle East of any western government for about 125 years. Witness the Treaty of Tripoli. Look at the U.S. response to the arabic peoples following WWI.

And it's only taken a generation to chuck it all in the toilet.

A single fool can ruin the work of a hundred geniuses.

:nuke:

On edit: sadeest? Gotta quit typing with my, er, um, nose.

[SoCalDem]

15. A lot of what we are suffering today can be lain on thedoorstep of the UK

They were instrumental in the structure of today's middle east..waaaay back in 1918 (I think that was the year)..

Tribes of nomadic people (then) did not readily accept western-made , artificial boundaries..

and we never stopped meddling.

[madeline_con]

4. "... bombings to be CIA or US plots ..."

Interesting timing.

The WH has it's ass in a sling over its crimes against the world.

The horror indeed.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Timing is everything with these people

From 9/11 to this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. I argue against such readings

They are self-indulgent and strip away any agency on the part of other cultures. It is colonialism and racism through the back door.

[knowbody0]

6. a star burst epiphany

[ChiciB1]

9. Great Post....

And THIS is what THIS Administration brought forth upon the world!!!

Sheer MADNESS.... King George!!!

[countmyvote4real]

11. The US needs to GTF out of there ASAP.

That doesn't mean that the US can get off monetarily free, but it would at least stop the priceless blood drain from our side.

The humiliation by the insurgency is equally priceless, but they seem to value their lives in a way that an invader cannot begin to understand.

Layer upon that the lies that the * administration in conjunction with MSM sold the post 9/11 stupid public. That's all we were to them: Viewers and voters that they could cower and marshal.

I was not there with them and I continue to resist their lies.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. Nor was I

This catastrophe, unlike some others, was perfectly predictable and anybody with the slightest understanding of the region knew exactly what would happen. The neocons are not only criminally corrupt, they're incredibly ignorant. Fucking pipedreamers. Well, neocons, I think the Iraq insurgency would quote that movie that best fits your weird fantasies: Welcome to the desert of the Real...

[geek tragedy]

14. How do you know this was done by Iraqis?

If it's Islamist terrorists who aren't Iraqis, then it's just AQ waging war against us and decent Muslims.

Same stuff they've been doing for over a decade.

This wasn't the work of insurgents or resistance fighters. It was the work of terrorists.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Well obviously, I don't

Although I suppose that's the answer you're looking for.

It may be just that. But even then, you'd have to see one of the strategic objectives of this particular attack to be coordinated with efforts in Iraq (on the part of Islamists or whomever). It is, of course, true, that the Islamists have been at this for years. But it doesn't follow that each particular attack doesn't also have local functional purposes! That would be a bizarre non sequitor, yes? So, even if there is no direct coordination with those who bombed the UN and Red Cross, the idea would be the same - call it coordination in spirit, if you like. The point remains the same. Amman is a choke point that can be utilized to squeeze the pressure on Iraq. Whether we narrate the planning as old maps rolled out under candlelight in Norman farmhouses or otherwise...

On edit to reply to your edit: As for "insurgents," "resistance fighters" and "terrorists," I'm not particularly concerned about such distinctions here (which is not to say that they aren't important generally speaking, although your edit seems to be deeply motivated). Rather, I'm looking at function. You present this as same ole same ole. I wouldn't say that. Yes, al Qaeda tried to hit the Radisson in 1998, but the conditions have changed so drastically since then that it would be foolish to lend the events the same meaning. It would be like assuming that a woman carrying an umbrella in the sun in 100 degree heat used it for the same reasons as when she carried it in the pouring rain, simply because it was the same umbrella and the same woman! The changed conditions require that we look at the event in its specificity. That is, if we're concerned about discovering its specific function here and now, rather than simply mobilizing it for ideological purposes...

[geek tragedy]

18. Too much can be made of AQ's motives and the consequences

of their acts.

They too make miscalculations and bungle things. If there is one lesson to be learned from their bombings conducted at Muslim targets, it is that such attacks dramatically decrease their support in the country where those attacks take place.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. I have no doubt that they bungle things

I also have little doubt that you very much want to push the line that al Qaeda attacks other Muslims and that this alienates other Muslims. I don't know if this is true or not. It has nothing to do with my point, in any case. But since you've chosen this for your mantra today, by all means respond with more of that...

[geek tragedy]

20. The point is that they're not going to drive people out of Amman.

They simply do not have the organizational wherewithal to conduct a significant campaign inside Jordan. Especially without the support of the local populace.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. Is that the point?

Wow. Now that I look back at your previous posts on this thread...well, actually, no, I don't see that point. Seems like a very mobile point, as it were.

That may be the case, but it did become more dangerous to work in Jordan, and we're talking slim margins here. I'm not even sure what your purpose is in this discussion, but more power to ya...

[geek tragedy]

60. The point is that they killed a bunch of Jordanians.

They didn't target US workers. They didn't target Israelis. They didn't target companies doing business in Iraq. They didn't target workers going into Iraq.

It was a textbook AQ massacre of civilians. There's nothing brilliant about it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

63. The slippage between what was being "targetted" and who was killed

says it all.

"They didn't target US workers. They didn't target Israelis. They didn't target companies doing business in Iraq. They didn't target workers going into Iraq."

No, they just targetted the hotels where US workers, Israelis, people doing business in Iraq, and people travelling to Iraq STAY! That they killed mostly Jordanians is beside the point. The targets were clear, if the results were not. Where do you suppose these populations (acdcording to you, NOt targetted, stay when they are in Amman, preparing to go to Iraq or doing business with Iraq? At the US embassy?!?

I understand that you don't want to attribute any intelligent strategy to this thing, probably for moral reasons. That's fair enough.

I'll only note that I brought up the UN and Red Cross bombings because they also killed Iraqis, but that doesn't seem to have lessened their positive impact for the planners of those attacks, either. At the time, there was much speculation that it must have been some sort of CIA black op, since the only possible result would be to turn the Iraqis against the bombers. But that wasn't the only result, and probably wasn't even the most important. As a functional operation (leaving morality aside for the moment), both bombs were extremely successful in the long run. I'd say the same intent was present here.

But you just think it's another stupid attack that will alienate the people from the bombers. Fine. Good luck with that position. It seems to fail every time, but if you want to claim it as your mantra, be my guest. At this point, only time will tell.

[geek tragedy]

69. Time for a reality check:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9979747/


<snip>
AMMAN, Jordan - Hundreds of angry Jordanians rallied Thursday outside one of three U.S.-based hotels attacked by suicide bombers, shouting, “Burn in hell, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi!” — a reference to the leader of Al-Qaida in Iraq, the terrorist group tied to the blasts that killed at least 56 people.

The protest was organized by Jordan’s 14 professional and trade unions — made up of both hard-line Islamic groups and leftist political organizations — traditionally vocal critics of King Abdullah II’s moderate and pro-Western policies.
<snip>

As I said, these guys are murderous fanatics, not geniuses.

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. You behave as if the two are mutually exclusive

I don't see any reason why they should be.

We also don't know what the long-term effects will be. The whoile world condemned the UN bombing in Iraq, including many Iraqis. the whole world condemned the Red Cross bombing in Iraq, including many Iraqis. That didn't make these any less effective in the big scheme of things.

The fact is that Western hangouts in Amman are suddenly more dangerous, and could get even more dangerous. Even universal condemnation by Jordanians wouldn't chenge the effects of that for Amman as a pipeline for the occupation.

Listen, I've seen many of your posts here and I think I get your complaint. Any attempt to paint these murderers as anything other than bumbling fanatics is anathema to you. That's an admirable hobby-horse, and I think I understand the motivation. But in my opinion it is wrong, and quite dangerous. Fundamentally, however, we do not disagree. You should not read a certain understanding of their tactics as praise for either these tactics or the goal. I condemn them both utterly. But that's beside the point.

[geek tragedy]

71. My point, which you summarily dismissed, was that bloody massacres

against Muslim civilians aren't only wicked acts, but self-defeating.

There is nothing that undercuts a movement's legitimacy within a population faster than wanton massacres of that population.

The terrorists are assuming that the people of Jordan can be cowed by violence. Bad thinking.

[alcibiades_mystery]

72. I edited my response in post 70

You're too on the ball, so I think you beat me to the edit.

I think you're proceeding with optimism rather than analysis. I think many of the bombings that would, under your theory, have undercut the movement's legitimacy (the UN bombing, the Red Cross bombing, many of the bombings in Iraq) have actually served their purpose; they've been effective in accomplishing goals within a long-term strategy. I think these guys are always weighing the very question that you pose, and for that, I appreciate your responses here. You've helped me think through some of this. I do think that they make calculated wagers based on these factors (will the functional effects of the bombings outweigh the popular outcry, etc.). And I think, in the past, at least, these wagers have proved successful for them.

The mistake is in thinking them so stupid that they don't know exactly what you've said: that bombings in Jordan will cause a certain amount of backlash in Jordan and perhaps across the populations from which they seek support. Of course they know that. It's rather obvious, after all. The question then is: against what are they weighing these effects to set their strategy. You imply that they have no strategy, that they bomb this and that willy nilly, results be damned. I think that is a foolish assumption, and not borne out by the history of the last 15 years.

[geek tragedy]

73. Iraq is a much different theater than Jordan.

Isolated incidents of terrorism won't cause a population to capitulate.

Only when it's able to be sustained, as it is in Iraq, does it become a threat to achieve its strategic goals.

They can sustain bombings in Iraq. They can't in Jordan.

[alcibiades_mystery]

74. That's your position

And that's fine. It is not my position that they can sustain attacks in Jordan. I am merely saying that this seems to be the strategic upshot of this most recent attack, and we shall have to see whether it continues.

[No Exit]

83. "There is nothing that undercuts a movement's legitimacy within

a population faster than wanton massacres of that population."

That's why I don't consider PNAC/the neocons a legitimate movement.

Prove to me that they had nothing to do with 9/11 and its aftermath.

[Freedomfried]

21. You waaaaaaaaay overestimate these fuckwads.

I cant believe this bullshit worshipping of these animals has made it to the greatest page.

Its a blind strike at a soft target by a local squad of nut-cases. They lashed out at the biggest soft targets full of Westerners in the area. End of fucking story.

Go back to watching your movie.

[dutchdoctor]

22. If you underestimate your enemy you'll never defeat him

So calling them a local squad of nutcases is not got going to help much.

Suicide bombings are taking place every day all over Iraq. Can you imagine the number of people and the determination needed to pull that off? And even with the most powerful army in the world fighting them they manage to expand the battlefield to another country.
Aren't you the least bit curious why these people go to such lengths? That is the question the OP is trying to answer.

Go back to living in your simplistic "Good vs. Evil" world if it makes you more comfortable. Don't waste your beautiful mind on thinking of ways to stop the daily attacks on U.S. troops.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Nice False Dichotomy...

I don't have to buy into Bush's Manichean vision of the world to know that folks who blow up a wedding party are evil...

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. And yet notice that I explicitly called the act evil in my post

A nuance apparently lost on you.

Oh yeah. Nuance is "bad." Perhaps even evil.

And trying to "understand" the processes at work here is some crunchy, mid-70's California utopianism, always invoked in snarling tones. Check. Let me just point to it again, since one poster has falsely stated that I am "worshipping" this act, while you insist, simply, that it is evil, as if that disputes me in some way: One can marvel at an evil strategem for its strategic acuity at the same time that one condemns its for its evil means and ends. The difference is between pragmatic and ethical criteria.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I Fail To See The Nuance

People who blow up (innocent) people suck...

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. I agree

They suck.

I agree.

You fail to see the nuance. Utterly fail.

One can very easily say that they suck, and that they accomplished something valuable from their perspective. That they suck, yet their execution of an act was intelligent. Listen, I don't like serial killers either. But anybody tracking a serial killer should go in prepared to see all the genius involved in the process. This does not rule out being angry or relentless in pursuit. If your approach is merely anger, however, if it prevents you from seeing the intelligence required to plan and execute something, if it prevents you from understanding how the acts are connected to other acts and to a broader context, you put yourself at a significant disadvantage.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing against. You say they suck. I say they suck. What's the dispute. Unless by insisting again and again that they are evil, you're trying to impute that I think otherwise? Let me state unequivocally: I condemn this act utterly. Satisfied on that point?

[DS1]

65. You confuse lunacy and mental imbalance with genius

And such is the downfall of your argument.

In my humble opinion. People who target their own countrymen should be cut to pieces and fed to dogs.

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. No, I do not

I see past the lunacy of it to a coherent strategy, and we miss this point at our peril.

You have a moral claim to bear. I'm trying to suspend my automatic moral reaction (which is identical to yours, I might add), in order to get to the functional core of it. As long as we dismiss these people as simple lunatics, we will fall prey to them. We must suspend (which does not mean abandon) our immediate moral reactions in order to see how these events work in a goal and strategy system that is all too lucid within the enemy's logic. Saying they should be cut to pieces may be morally satisfying, but it gets us nowhere.

I also think, after reviewing these responses, that people are attaching a moral value to the term "genius." I suggest no such thing, and the Brando quotation is meant to indicate quite the opposite. Calling a strategy "genius" or "brilliant" is not moral praise. Genius is independent from moral judgment.

[dutchdoctor]

50. Nowhere in my post I said you had to

and nowhere in my post I said these people are NOT evil.
The false dichotomy you read into my post is not there.
The point of my post is that either you can call these people evil and stop thinking beyond that( a la Bush), or you can call them evil, try to find what motivates them and why they are so resilient (like the OP does)

[burythehatchet]

23. wow. you should be our next preznit. you figger things out just as easy.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Worshipping?

Ridiculous, and unworthy of response.

[Freedomfried]

79. Good, I've heard enough out of you.

e0m

[mike_c]

44. well-- that contributed exactly nothing to this discussion....

Yeah, and they're ragheads too. Sheesh.

:sarcasm:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Don't Get The Parable...

Call me simple but anybody who deliberately sheds the blood of the innocent is a monster and is no more human than than a viper...

[lakeguy]

26. are we innocent of the blood spilled in iraq even though some of us

aren't directly involved? if you pay taxes, you are paying for the bullets.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. When

When American GIs deliberately blow up wedding parties I'll accept responsibility for the carnage...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. When

When American GIs deliberately blow up wedding parties I'll accept responsibility for the carnage...

[Dunvegan]

42. When American's bomb wedding parties? How soon we forget...

Wedding Party Massacre

Iraqis claim more than 40 killed in US helicopter attack

Rory McCarthy in Baghdad
Thursday May 20, 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html
The Guardian

Iraqi officials last night said an American helicopter fired on a wedding party in western Iraq killing more than 40 people, including many children, in another damaging setback for the US occupation.

A senior Iraqi police officer told the Associated Press that a helicopter fired at the party early yesterday morning in a remote village close to the Syrian border, killing between 42 and 45 people.

Television footage showed a truck carrying the bodies of the dead arriving in Ramadi, the nearest big town. Many of the dead were clearly children.

In a written statement the Pentagon said last night: "Our report is that this was not a wedding party, that these were anti-coalition forces that fired first, and that US troops returned fire, destroying several vehicles, and killing a number of them.

(snip)

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. You missed the main qualifier: "deliberately"

Producing conditions whereby such acts are inevitable does not, apparently, rise to the level of deliberate action...

[canichelouis]

58. collateral damage is the term we use

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. I'm glad you're not in charge on anti-terrorism, then

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. You Struck Gold...

You discovered the goal of the terrorists is to to effect political change by using terror...

What's next....


Ummmmmmm


Water is wet...

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Wrong again

I'm not making a general point about terrorism, but a specific point about this attack. Your anger at me here is frankly a mystery to me. I think you just like arguing on internet boards.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Like Popeye

I yam what I yam....


I don't see anything unique about this attack....


You don't need a PHD in International Relations from Johns Hopkins to see what the goal of the terrorists in this instance are...


Their goal is too make it costly and dangerous to be an ally of the United States....



I am more concerned about how we can simultaneously imprison or kill the terrorists, address their legitimate grievances, and not lose our humanity in the process....

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. I share all of your concerns

I think this attack was aimed not just at making "it costly and dangerous to be an ally of the United States...." in an abstract sense, but in concretely affecting a major supply line into and staging area for Iraq. And I'm arguing that this follows a strategy that has been successful in the past. These are specific claims, not general claims about terrorism. And I'm sorry these claims don't rise to your high standards, but you do seem to represent them at a rather abstract level: (1) terrorists terrosize (not what I'm saying) 2) terrorists seek to make it more costly to be an ally (also not what I'm saying, or at least posed at a more general level).

[mike_c]

47. that includes a significant number of U.S. military personnel...

...and likely some proportion of the folks staying at those hotels on their way to and from Baghdad. It's really time to stop dismissing these struggles as the work of "monsters." That's way too simplistic a discription, and more to the point, it isn't going to offer many insights into how we can improve the situation.

[Clark2008]

27. Why Amman?

I can answer that.

The Jordanian Intelligence is one of the best in the world. I would say it more than rivals the Israeli Mossad. They thwarted the Millenium bombing. They thwarted another planned master-terrorism attack in the Spring of this year. In short, they rock when it comes to stopping terrorism attacks. We all could learn from them.

So, why Amman?

Because, now the terrorists have found a way to thwart one of the best intelligence agencies in the world. They beat them.

And, yes, we are all now on notice. If they can beat the Jordanian Intelligence, they can beat everyone, everywhere.

Very sad and very, very scary.

[xchrom]

30. well said...well thought out, but of more concern is your point

{understated} that this was an intelligent move -- and it's implications are not understood.

as evidenced by some of the responses here.

we have in our leadership people as incapable of understanding the width and breadth of what is happening as a result of our ''war'' and ''acts'' in the middle east.

the worst thing that could happen to aq is that they were treated as criminals and were subject to good international police and covert work.

the insurgency in iraq has to be understood as seperate from that if we are to ever understand what is happening there.

[Marie26]

54. This might be off-topic,

but I've been wondering this. Exactly who are the insurgency in Iraq? Are they mostly oppressed Iraqis who hate the invasion, or are they mostly foreign Al-Queda who simply hate America? If the insurgents are Iraqis, why do they seem to be actually targeting other Iraqis? Are Al-Queda & Iraqi groups coordinating all this? Do they tend to be Sunnis (Saddam supporters) or Shiite (Iman supporters)? Or is it just one horrible mix of every kind of bad guy? What are they trying to accomplish anyway - American withdraw, or the end of democracy in Iraq? There's been a lot of news reports, but I've yet to see one that actually explains who these guys are & what their goals are. (Sorry, I know the answers could probably fill a CIA guidebook, but I'd appreciate any "nuances" you can offer). Thanks!

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. There are and have been several insurgencies

That's one of the problems, I think. There is not just one insurgency.

So, for example, for the better part of 2004 we were engaged with a Shiite insurgency in the Sadr City section of Baghdad, and - of course - in the Battle of Najaf. This was led by Moqtada al-Sadr, the so-called "radical cleric." He's now part of the Shiite coalition that will probably rule Iraq. We've always been engaged with a thriving insurgency in the Sunni heartland, at least from the very early days of the occupation. This began primarily as Sunni tribal resistance to the US invasion, and has spread and multiplied and transformed to become a movement of its own. Whatever they might tell you, the Sunni "Triangle" is still, for the most part, ruled by this insurgent network, with the puppet Iraqi government and US troops only running minor intereference, even when they rev up the machine and "retake" some town. Basically, the Shiite insurgency won, and the Sunni insurgency will have steam as long as the US continues the occupation, whatever farce of a Shiite dominated government is installed. Finally, you have the foreign fighters/jihadists who are in league with the Sunni insurgency (al Qaeda is Sunni, after all) for reasons of their own.

Don't believe the hype that killing Iraqis alienates the Iraqis. The Sunni insurgency remains extremely popular in the Sunni heartland in the Sunni areas around Baghdad. The Shiites are geared up for the civil war they know is coming, and have already engaged in raids, kidnappings, and assaults on Sunnis (the opposite is true as well). This is an extremely complex and dynamic situation that the neither the US government nor the US media is being totally forthright about, either because they know it will scare the hell ouyt of Amnericans, or because they are too fucking ignorant to get it.

[Marie26]

78. If what you're saying is true, how could we possibly win?

So there's many different insurgencies floating around, each with it's own agenda; many with conflicting agendas. So if we appease the Shiites, we'll just anger the Sunnis, & vice versa. If we start seizing towns in the Sunni triangle to stop insurgents, we'll just radicalize more townspeople. But if we do nothing, the insurgents can keep growing. It seems like a lose-lose no matter what you do. And the final lose-lose: if we stay there's civil war & if we leave there's civil war. I just can't see any way for a sucessful outcome & I can't imagine where we'll be five years from now.

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. Now you're catching on

That's precisely right. This thing is fucked in its root, and no matter of pruning will fix it. Fucked in its DNA, even. Fini.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. Brilliant and recommended! BTW....notice how quickly Zarqawi

was blamed (Emmanuel Goldstein)? Verified now because of a statement on a website? This is all too much like 9/11 when they had all the hijackers named and identified, including Bin Laden before the sunset on the smoke-filled sky... All too convenient.

[Marie26]

55. You're saying the US is somehow behind this? nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. Yes. I wouldn't put it pass the Bushco. Do you recall the incident

in southern Iraq where the Iraqis arrested British soldiers for posing as Iraqi terrorists? The British army then plowed down the Iraqi jail to get their soldiers out. I believe we do the same exact bullshit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. Ridiculous

People made the same silly argument after the UN and Red Cross bombs. They couldn't see how these bombings would benefit the insurgents. But they clearly did benefit the insurgents, as I outlined above. We need to cut the conspiracy bullshit and look dispassionately at these events.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

67. Is this not a conspiracy? Can you look at this dispassionately?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1791641

[populistdriven]

45. here is a partial video clip of that

http://texturespublishing.com/videos/brandoapocalypse.mov

[rolleitreks]

46. Nicely done, worthy of your namesake,

who, with Sir Henry Morgan and Simon de Montfort, forms a stellar triangle for those of us who appreciate the maverick.

Now don't go working the enemy!

[Junkdrawer]

48. Well...I agree *someone* has a will to do unspeakable things...

to advance their agenda.

The question is: Who? :think:

[elehhhhna]

49. You know, Brando improvised that soliloquy.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. I know

I saw Hearts of Darkness too. ;-)

[elehhhhna]

81. Good! I like the documentary even better than the movie.

And I LOVE that movie.

[xchrom]

52. kick

[wiggs]

53. Hussein said the same thing at the start of the invasion

He said Americans will leave because they won't be able to stomach the bloodshed, the killing.

Thanks for the insightful post. I wish I had the exact Hussein quote, because it dovetails with what you are saying. Maybe someone else has it.

[myrna minx]

56. What a thoughtful post.

I can't help but think of the Shriekback song Nemesis, which was inspired by Brano's soliloquy:

Shriekback
Song: Nemesis (Oil And Gold)

In a jungle of the senses
Tinkerbell and Jack the ripper
Love has no meaning, not where they come from
But we know pleasure is not that simple
Very little fruit is forbidden
Sometimes we wobble, sometimes we're strong
But you know evil is an exact science
Being carefully correctly wrong

Chorus
Priests and cannibals, prehistoric animals
Everybody happy as the dead come home
Big Black Nemesis, parthenogenesis
No one move a muscle as the dead come home

We feel like Greeks, we feel like Romans
Centaurs and monkeys just cluster round us
We drink elixirs that we refine
from the juices of the dying
We are no monsters, we're moral people
and yet we have the strength to do this
This is the splendor of our achievement
Call in the airstrike with a poison kiss

Chorus
Priests and cannibals, prehistoric animals
Everybody happy as the dead come home
Big black nemesis, parthenogenesis
No-one move a muscle as the dead come home

How bad it gets, you can't imagine
the burning wax, the breath of reptiles
god is not mocked, he knows our business
Karma could take us at any moment
Cover him up.....I think we're finished
You know it's never been so exotic
but I don't know, my dreams are visions
We could still end up with the great big fishes

Chorus
Priests and cannibals, prehistoric animals
Everybody happy as the dead come home
Big black nemesis, parthenogenesis
No-one move a muscle as the dead come home

[Extend a Hand]

57. ...the will. To do that.

must come from a very dark place indeed.

I find it easier to understand suicide bombers who would take innocent victims with them than those that could chop off the arms of children and then get on with life. I was afraid we'd see piles of purple fingers after the 'elections' in Iraq.

maybe ignorance is bliss...sometimes I want to go back to my blissful unawareness. To push all thoughts of badness out...to be glad it isn't happening here, to me and mine.

[DemoTex]

61. "The horror! The horror!"

Kurtz was right. We just got a chilling glimpse into the heart of darkness. We have sown the wind, and we shall reap the whirlwind.

:scared:

On edit: K&R

[northamericancitizen]

68. Horrifying but so true.

[Goldensilence]

75. kudos to you

alcibiades_mystery. very insightful post. I wish more people had the ability to stop and think critically what has happened there.

I am often confused about people who who don't see why the insurgents are insurgents. I try to explain it this way:

Ok so close your eyes for a minute you are at home with your family calm relaxed reading a book,eating dinner, whatevetr, then on the TV or radio(Insert country and party the person doesn't like like say nazi germany,communist china, etc etc) has invaded. Would you take to weapons and defend your home? Defend what you feel is your country? Defend your way of life as seen so long ago? Would you be willing to sacrifice it all in the name of your freedom?

[northamericancitizen]

77. Welcome to DU Goldensilence.

[maxsolomon]

76. Hey man you stole my favorite post!

this section of Apocalypse Now encapsulates what has always been needed in war; amoral brutality, and the will to do it, and that we are no longer willing to be that barbaric.

we could have fought this war with money & without violence. we could have bought the entire thrid world clean water with half the money we've wasted destroying iraq.

[Gloria]

80. Check out this article from A Times-Jordan Bombs a Terrorist Master Stroke

1//Asia Times Online, Hong Kong Nov 11, 2005

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GK11Ak01.html


Summary from the World Media Watch up now at URL in sig below...

1//Asia Times Online, Hong Kong--JORDAN BOMBS A TERRORIST MASTER-STROKE (… .The scope of the "war on terrorism", at least in this region, appears to be widening. … . The questions of the hour are why was Jordan targeted, and why now? The answers may not be straightforward, since they appear to be linked to Zarqawi's own interpretation of how the war should be waged. In that sense, the actions in Iraq, and now in Jordan, may be linked to what is also transpiring in Pakistan and Afghanistan involving al-Qaeda and Taliban forces. So, a good way to understand the role of Jordan in the "war on terror" is to compare it with the role that Pakistan plays.)


The article....


JORDAN BOMBS A TERRORIST MASTER-STROKE

By Ehsan Ahrari
(Ehsan Ahrari is a CEO of Strategic Paradigms, an Alexandria, VA-based defense consultancy.
His website: www.ehsanahrari.com.)

While Osama bin Laden has become a legend within the rank and file of global terrorists, he is living the life of a retired legend. Zarqawi, on the other hand, is fighting a two-front war: one in Iraq and a second one, as Wednesday's attacks on the Grand Hyatt, Radisson and Days Inn hotels in Jordan seem to indicate, in his native country.

Zarqawi is the "prime suspect" for the Amman bombings, according to Jordan's Deputy Prime Minister, Marwan Muasher. At least 57 people are reported dead and more than 115 wounded in the three almost simultaneous explosions.

Iraq's al-Qaeda, headed by Zarqawi, in a statement posted on an Islamist Internet site usually used by the group, on Thursday claimed responsibility for the attacks. In August, the same group claimed responsibility for a failed rocket attack on US Navy ships in Jordan's Aqaba port.

The scope of the "war on terrorism", at least in this region, appears to be widening.
MORE

[No Exit]

84. Guess what? The Jordanians are now waving flags and screaming

"Kill the Terrorists!" just as WE did after 9/11.

Now isn't that a coincidence?