Andrea Yates getting a new trial

[Nikki Stone 1]

This was the woman suffering from post partum psychosis who drowned her 5 children. The new trial was based on the fact that an expert witness lied about a Law and Order episode that never existed, saying that Yates actually watched a L&O on drowning children.

[Teaser]

1. Hmmm...

While I have no doubt that Yates is mentally ill, I have yet to be convinced that she could not distinguish right from wrong at the time of the crimes.

[mondo joe]

2. When the expert witness implies, through fabrication, that she made it up

then the jury can't tell either.

[Teaser]

111. No debate there.

New trial. If she's convicted, throw her back in the hole.

[Catchawave]

209. What about Randy?

I think I was pissed at him more than Andrea in that "uck" fair and balanced initial coverage. Wasn't he holding press conferences the day of the "murders" ? Creepy.

[dsc]

3. This could be a huge mistake on the part of her lawyers

A new trial could lead to a DP verdict instead of the life in prison she ended up getting.

[Orangepeel]

34. well, she might want that, actually

based on what I've read, when she's on the medication and realizes what she did, she wants to die

I just have a vague memory of reading that, but I believe it because I can't imagine living with that knowledge

[LostinVA]

113. She has said that

When she was medicated after her arrest, she realized what she had done.

[AlCzervik]

4. Did anyone ever find what the purpose of that lie was?

i never quite understood that part.

[mondo joe]

6. Wouldn't it be to imply that she "copied" the tv show excuse?

It would have to imply that.

[madeline_con]

8. I thought L&O was "ripped from the headlines" after the fact. n/t

[AlCzervik]

13. ok so it was an expert for the defense then?

[mondo joe]

14. Where did you get THAT? The witness for the prosecution implied that

she did a "copycat" of the L&O episode that never happened.

[AlCzervik]

15. i think that goes one above me

[mondo joe]

19. Let's start from scratch: Andrea Yates defense was that she suffered

from post partum psychotic depression, leading her to hear voices and believe she was saving her children by drowning them.

The prosecution expert said this was on a TV show just before she killed her kids - the implication is her story is BS - she's just copying an excuse from a tv show.

The intent was to cast doubt on her entire defense.

[AlCzervik]

20. ok, thanks for clearing that up, i understand now.

[Nikki Stone 1]

28. Post partum PSYCHOSIS--and she was on anti-psychotic meds until

2 weeks before she killed her kids. She was taken off Haldol and then not given ANY mental health backup. She was sent home to take care of her kids 24/7 (she was home-schooling them) and she was also taking care of an elderly father with Alzheimer's.

I have aways thought that she was taken off the meds too soon.

[raccoon]

136. I'm not familiar with Haldol, but some of those antidepressant

meds can be a real mofo to get off.

[LostinVA]

144. Haldol is one of them!

[raccoon]

167. Wish I could be on her jury.

It's incredible what coming off those meds can do to your mind.
And in combination with her having post-partum psychosis.

She didn't have a chance. And got NO SUPPORT from her husband and doctor.

[LostinVA]

173. I know.... Rusty Yates is a slimeball, imo

[...of J.Temperance]

175. Her husband's a slimeball and her doctor was a shambles

But these are still no reasons to kill your five children...SURELY?

[LostinVA]

181. WTF are you arguing with me about? Thought you had educated

yourself some.

Andre Yates didn't kill her kids because she was pissed at her doctor and husband. Because of their lack of caring and "caretakership," Yates spiraled into the deep psychosis that triggered her delusional episode that lead directly to her killing her children. Rusty Yates and the doctor are morally responsible in not stopping this triggering. This didn't have to happen, you know. And, if you had actually read anything about psychosis, you would know that.


You are very close to me putting you on "Ignore" here -- I don't mind a good debate, but I refuse to allow people to bait me.

[...of J.Temperance]

185. I wasn't baiting you, I was just asking a question is all n/t

[LostinVA]

187. No, baiting, because the question has been answered

And that's not what you're doing anyway... having a legit question you want answered. Please. I'm far from stupid, although I've let you blather on too long today. And, you're on Ignore as of right now. I won't see any of your posts. Have fun.

[...of J.Temperance]

174. Would you let Andrea Yates walk free back into the community?

Or would you at the very least vote for life in a mental hospital?

On Edit: I'll be surprised if this even gets answered by the person that I posed the two questions to. I suppose the answer is yes to the first and no to the second. This is how I interpret "wish I could be on her jury."

[LostinVA]

184. Why are you being so needlessly insulting all of a sudden?

I don't blame the poster for not answering you, if that's the case. Your posts have been very, very baiting and even hostile, and you continuously go back and edit "bad" stuff out of your posts.

Hav eyou read this thread? Really read it? If you had, your post would have been answered many times over.

I am putting you on ignore, because this is getting out of hand. I am not longer "feeding" you.

[...of J.Temperance]

190. I'm asking questions

Those two questions they are alright. I've taken the death penalty out of the equation for that poster. So we're left with only two other choices a)Andrea Yates is free and allowed back into the community or)Andrea Yates is given life in a mental hospital, where she can get the help that she needs.

I thought the "wish I could be on her jury" comment sounded like Andrea Yates hasn't done any wrong at all.

On Edit: Spelling error on "they are"

[mondo joe]

194. False choices.

This is a logical fallacy known as Bifurcation.

You ignoer choice c: Yates is confined to a mental hospital until such time, if ever, as she is found to not pose a danger to herself or others.

[...of J.Temperance]

197. Can people fully recover from psychosis and/or being psychotic?

God, don't jump all over me like LostInVa did...I don't think there's anything wrong with my question, it's perfectly straightforward in response to your above choice of C.

If a person is suffering from deep psychosis, are there cases where that person has managed to recover from that, to the point where they're no longer a threat?

[mondo joe]

200. Psychosis can be treated and managed and in

some cases people recover. In some they do not.

No one can know if a person who has suffered a psychosis will ever be a threat any more than they can know a person without a psychosis will ever be a threat.

But a professional consensus regarding their threat likelihood can be arrived at, which is more than most people get.

[...of J.Temperance]

202. Okay, I understand

Thanks. At the weekend I'm going to see if I can get a book on psychosis, so I might be able to understand it more.

I think perhaps you're working in the psychologist field, you seem to know a lot about it.

[mondo joe]

193. "Life in a mental hospital" is effectively a prison sentence

because it's based on a penalty (life) rather than diagnosis and safety.

[raccoon]

199. You read too much into things.

To your first question, I'd say no.

To the second, I'm not sure.

No way would I vote for the death penalty for her.

See again my message 136 and LostinVA's 144.
The withdrawal from these drugs is unbelievable.

edited to correct message number.

[...of J.Temperance]

204. Alright

I'll read your message of 136.

I'm going to say now, that after Andrea Yates' new trial, IF the new jury DOES find her guilty - I'm not saying that they WILL - but IF they do...I'm just going to hang out in the Pets Forum or the Book Forum or something ;)

[verse18]

208. Actually,

Haldol is a powerful antipyschotic, not an antidepressant. It basically turns people into zombies.

[LostinVA]

211. That's what I thought was posted - sorry!

A friend has tried to get off of Haldol for a while -- the withdrawal is horrible... totally unbelievable to em. And I thought quitting smoking was bad!

[Nikki Stone 1]

18. Here's the info from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/06/children.drowned/


"The Texas 1st Court of Appeals ruled that the convictions should be reversed because an expert witness for the state, Dr. Park Dietz, presented false testimony when he said Yates may have been influenced by an episode of the "Law & Order" television program. No such episode ever aired...

...Dietz, who worked as consultant for NBC's "Law and Order" program, testified that there was an episode dealing with a woman suffering from postpartum depression who drowned her children in a bathtub and was found to have been insane.

Yates, now 40, apparently was a fan of the show and watched it regularly.

Dietz suggested that Yates might have been inspired to kill her children because of that specific episode. But on appeal, the defense said it contacted the producers of the show, who said such an episode was never aired.

"We conclude that there is a reasonable likelihood that Dr. Dietz's false testimony could have affected the judgment of the jury," the appeals court found. "We further conclude that Dr. Dietz's false testimony affected the substantial rights of the appellant.".."

[Nikki Stone 1]

21. No, for the PROSECUTION. They had one mental expert, but he was famous

and swayed the jury.

"According to an Associated Press report, prosecution witness Dietz is a nationally known expert who also took part in such high profile cases as those of Susan Smith, convicted of killing her two children in a South Carolina lake; serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer; and "Unabomber" Ted Kaczynski."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/06/children.drowned/

[Horse with no Name]

25. It went to premeditation. eom

[Catherine Vincent]

5. Why did the expert witness lie like that?

He should be indicted for lying to a jury yes?

[Nikki Stone 1]

29. I don't know why he lied, or if he just honestly got confused

There was apparently a script in the works for L&O, but it was never made into a show. Dietz, as a consultant for L&O, would know about the script but Yates would never have known.

[marbuc]

7. Who was the witness, Tom Shales?

[spindrifter]

17. The witness was Park Dietz,

a well-known witness who generally testifies for the government. He has been an expert in many very high profile cases, although since this came out--quite a long time ago, actually, I don't know how much he has raked in.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,218743,00.html

[...of J.Temperance]

9. I've edited everything

Because I'm decent. I'm sorry that upset you. You're correct, it was bad form.

[mondo joe]

11. Thank you for telling it like it's NOT. You ignored the crucial part

about having considerable documentation of her being psychotic. You furthermore ignored the lies of the prosecution.

Bad form.

[...of J.Temperance]

16. Okay

Well I'll wait for her new trial. Being psychotic doesn't mean she shouldn't be executed, I'm not sure 100% that she is psychotic. Also Ted Bundy was psychotic, so should that have been a reason not to execute HIM? What about John Wayne Gacy, or Betty Lou Beets...they were psychotic, so should we not have executed them?

I do think that there are circumstances where some people shouldn't be executed, Aileen Wuornos was one case...I'm conflicted on Karla Faye Tucker, so because I am, I probably would say she should have been given life instead.

But as I said, I'll wait for Yates' new trial...of course because she's white and a Born-Again means she gets a new trial. It's a good job Yates wasn't born black isn't it?

[mondo joe]

22. Ted Bundy was not psychotic. Try to say something accurate for a change,

would you?

Nor were the others you mentioned psychotic.

I can't imagine why someone would venture so much to say without being the least bit informed.

And when you say she wasn't born black, do you mean like this guy?

[...of J.Temperance]

26. So you're saying

That Ted Bundy WASN'T psychotic? So WHAT would you call his actions if they WEREN'T psychotic? Gacy's actions were psychotic and Betty Lou Beets got rid of more than one husband....they were ALL murdering more than one person...in the case of Bundy and Gacy they were murdering 30, 40-plus people...and this isn't the behavior of psychotics?

They weren't insane either and that was proven. But then if you're on trial and you know if found guilty you'll get the Death Penalty, they ALL plead insanity don't they? It's their last resort.

OJ Simpson, one cannot compare him with the hundreds of black people on Death Row, a lot of them probably innocent.

OJ Simpson LIKE Michael Jackson has MILLIONS of dollars and thus BOUGHT his way off by being able to afford a top-notch defense team. The average black on Death Row CANNOT afford that kind of luxury.

[mondo joe]

27. Please cite the diagnosis of psychosis for Bundy or Gacy.

You can't, since neither was diagnosed as such.

I suggest if you're going to mouth off you at least get a bit of a clue on the subject matter. You make dems look bad.

And as far as OJ is concerned, you made race an issue -- now you cange the standard. Try for consistency.

[...of J.Temperance]

33. The sheer horror of what they did

To other human beings, that did no harm to them, to me is enough proof that they were psychotic...normal people with good mental health just do not do things like that.

You gave the example of OJ Simpson, which in my opinion was a GREATLY lop-sided one...considering he had MILLIONS of dollars.

This is no different to say, Phil Specter, who is on trial for murder and Specter's white, but I don't expect him to get the Death Penalty because he'll buy his way off.

[mondo joe]

38. Then you don't know that psychotic is a particular medical diagnosis

and you certainly don't know what it means.

Again, I don't know why anyone would mouth off on a medical AND legal issue without bothering to be informed about either.

[...of J.Temperance]

41. I'm not going on medical diagnosis

What I'm going on, in Bundy's case shall I say. In my book, anyone who smashes another persons skull in, to the point where that person is unrecognizable ie. REPEATED heavy blows from a blunt instrument...the kind of person that does THAT to another person, in my book IS a psychotic.

I'm not bothered about medical diagnosis. And Bundy was running around hoodwinking all kinds of psychologists into believing he was insane...good job the last one proved that Bundy was sane.

I'm not into defending the Ted Bundy's of the world.

[mondo joe]

42. Of course not. Making shit up is a lot easier than going with

actual medicine or law when discussing medical or legal issues.

Really, it's a sad thing to see dems speak from such ignorance.

[...of J.Temperance]

46. I'm not making shit up

It's fact that Bundy repeatedly smashed in the skulls of 40-plus women...and this to MANY people IS considered psychotic behavior.

I'm not ignorant, I'm going on common sense and just because I'm a member of the Democratic Party, doesn't mean that I can't be pro-Capital Punishment, there are a lot of Democrats that support the Death Penalty.

[mondo joe]

48. You certainly are. Psychosis is a particular diagnosis. It is not

interchangeable with any or all mental illness diagnoses.

You're using your made up definition of "psychotic" because it's inconvenient to your BS argument.

You shame the democratic party not by being pro capital punishment, but by speaking so much on topics you choose to be ignorant of.

[...of J.Temperance]

50. Alright

Ted Bundy's actions were completely normal. I give in, he wasn't psychotic, he was a normal, mentally healthy man...he JUST had some not so good days now and then...bad day at work, argument with his girlfriend, that kind of stuff...so he'd go out and rape some innocent girl and smash her skull in...but Ted wasn't psychotic, I agree, he just had Bad Day Syndrome.

[mondo joe]

52. Go ahead and persist in made up definitions. No wonder you're so

frustrated.

Psychosis is a mental illness. There are many others. Not being psychotic doesn't necessarily mean one is mentallly healthy or "normal".

But if you dealt with the reality instead of making things up, you'd know that.

[U4ikLefty]

84. Excellent job holding to logic Mondo Joe

I'm impressed...I'm gonna use you tactic as a guide to dealing with off-the-wall BS like that. I used to stay focused like that & your post reminded me to hold steady when the argument gets twisted by a frantic/illogical person.

[mondo joe]

91. That's very nice of you to say, Lefty, but some people make it very

easy to appear logical in comparison. :-)

[...of J.Temperance]

94. This is now all about

Mondo Joe who is obviously anti-Death Penalty being against people who are pro-Death Penalty.

You're obviously anti-Death Penalty too. And I did learn a long time ago not to get into a situation with the anti-Death Penalty side, because everybody is innocent and everybody didn't know what they were doing because they were sick, and the Judge was wrong and the prosecution was wrong...and everybody was wrong except the person who did the murdering.

Should have remembered not to make comments to anti-Death Penalty people.

[mondo joe]

99. Please take responsibility for your own posts.

I have not said a word against capital punishment.

I am, however, opposed to poor reasoning and ignorance.

[LostinVA]

118. This has nothing to do with death penalty belief

MJ hasn't mentioned one word about it -- nice try at side-stepping, though.

Study up on mental illness, then come back and chat. You, along with many Americans are functionally illiterate when it comes to understanding mental illness. People have two kinds of illnesses: mental and physical. I sincerely hope the former never hits anyone in your family, because it is devastating, partly because of attitudes like yours.

Being a sociopath like Bundy is not a medical illness, it's a personality disorder.

[raccoon]

138. I second that. nt

[LostinVA]

115. Mondo is 100% correct -- you don't know what you're talking about

Ted Bundy was a sociopath; Yates has/had Post Partum Psychosis. Oranges and apples, both medically and legally.

In layman's terms:


OUN:
pl. psy·cho·ses (-sz) KEY

A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.


o·ci·o·path (ss--pth, -sh-) KEY

NOUN:

One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.

[Ladyhawk]

53. You are 100% correct. Psychosis is a severe mental illness.

Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy were psychopathic, not psychotic. A person who is psychotic is disconnected from reality. Bundy and Gacy knew what they were doing and did it anyway. Psychopaths have no conscience. Psychotics don't realize what they are doing, or have no clue that what they are doing is wrong.

I think someone is confusing the two terms.

[mondo joe]

57. Yes, but why bother with actual definitions when they get in the way

of an emotional tantrum?

[...of J.Temperance]

63. An emotional tantrum?

Nah, I wasn't having an emotional tantrum.

Anyhow, I've got to go to bed now...but I did learn some things from your responses, don't think I didn't :)

[mondo joe]

67. You mean *let her die because she's white* wasn't an emotional tantrum?

Ignoring the law and science weren't emotional tantrums?

Very interesting.

[...of J.Temperance]

77. I NEVER said that

I said that there seems to be two laws: One that says if someone's white, a Born-Again Christian and killed their kids, they get a new trial. The other law says if someone's black, a Born-Again Christian and killed their kids, they just get executed.

THAT'S what I said and that DOESN'T mean "let her die because she's white"

Yes, I think Andrea Yates is guilty and I think she knew exactly what she was doing when she killed her kids, all five of them, in METHODICAL fashion and in the state of Texas the law is, you do this, you get the Death Penalty NO MATTER WHAT...EXCEPT if you're a white, Born-Again Christian, then you get a new trial.

What about the woman in Missouri that cut the baby out of the woman and then killed the woman...that's murder. But, her neighbors said "Oh she was a good Christian woman"...she's white and a Born-Again Christian so she gets a nicer sentence.

There's a pattern here.

On Edit: I'd better point out that I'm white myself.

[mondo joe]

80. Like I said, too bad you can edit a post after it gets a response. n/t

[...of J.Temperance]

I never said that in that post I edited and you know it

So now you're making things up, things I never said.

I edited that post because I thought I'd upset you, I edited it as I pointed out because I'm actually decent and feel bad if I've thought I've upset someone...obviously considering you're now making things up yourself SUCH AS:

That I posted: "because she's white she should die"

This to me says that you're probably not a decent person, or else you wouldn't be making up that someone said that when they didn't.

This will learn me, NEVER to edit anything again, if something upsets someone, then fuck 'em, I'm not caring anymore.

On Edit: For anyone reading, in my now edited original post. I stated that I thought Andrea Yates was guilty and that she should be executed already and I said that she should be strapped to the gurney. I also said that she's lucky she's been given a new trial, probably because she's white.

This does NOT translate as: "because she's white she should die"

She should die, because in a lot of peoples' opinions she's guilty of murdering her five children.

[mondo joe]

90. I didn't quote you nor did I say I was quoting you. But your

first post was quite clear that you felt she should die and you felt she shouldn't get an appeal BECAUSE she's white.

[...of J.Temperance]

93. I'm not

Even bothering responding to you after this post. You're not a nice person in my humble opinion, to say such a thing. I did what I thought was the right thing, by editing...and then knowing full well I didn't have that post anymore...you just went ahead and stated something false, something I never stated.

So I don't think you're nice.

Yates is getting a new trial because she's white and even better a Born-Again Christian as well. Yet the law is so biased, that were Yates black and maybe not EVEN a Born-Again Christian as well...she wouldn't even get a second look...and I think that deep down you know that too.

[mondo joe]

95. Since you fail to even recognize the basis for appeal, and since you seem

utterly unaware of the defining features of this case or several others, your opinions must be taken with an enormous grain of salt.

You were unaware that Yates never denied the killings, unaware that Newton's defense had nothing to do with mental illness, and you continue to be unaware of the distinction between psychosis and other diagnoses.

You're obviously very frustrated about some very real things - like bias in the system (not the law). But until you get a grip on what things are instead of letting your emotions get the better of you, you will not make a very compelling case against the things that frustrate you.

[LostinVA]

121. Like Mondo says, your response shows you no nothing

about what you're saying. Andrea Yates didn't know what she was doing, because she was in deep psychpsis... the worst her STATE doctors had ever seen (not her own doctors, the State's). Again, being educated on this subject and then we can all have a healthy debate. One can have their own opinions, but not their own facts. The legal and medical definition of psychosis is not up for poo-pooing.

The ignorance on DU of mental illnesses/health is appalling.

[...of J.Temperance]

70. So

I'm confused? Okay. I'll re-read your response tomorrow after I've had some sleep.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Ted Bundy was a sociopath

Sociopaths are not psychotic. A psychotic is not in touch with reality. Sociopathy is a personality disorder, not a psychosis.

[LostinVA]

112. Ted Bundy, etc. were sociopaths, Yates had Psychosis

She was delusional, and lived in an alternate reality. It's medically not the same thing at all.

[...of J.Temperance]

177. Psychopaths often are also delusional and mentally ill

They have delusions of grandeur. And the Oxford Dictionary defination of psychopath is:

1. A person suffering from a chronic MENTAL DISORDER esp. with abnormal or violent social behavior.

2. A MENTALLY or EMOTIONALLY unstable person.

This does sound like psychopaths are also suffering from a mental illness AS WELL AS a personality problem.

On edit: I now understand that there's a DIFFERENCE between a psychotic and a psychopath...but you know, it seems that there are some similarities between psychotics and psychopaths.

AND NO I'M NOT SAYING THAT I THINK THAT ANDREA YATES IS IN ANY WAY A PSYCHOPATH. I UNDERSTAND THAT SHE IS PSYCHOTIC BUT NOT A PSYCHOPATH.

Bundy was BOTH a psychopath and a sociopath.

[LostinVA]

186. A psychopath and sociopath are the same thing

The terms are interchangeable.

Bundy did not have psychosis. He was a sociopath. They do not have a mental disorder, which is a medical condition. They have a personality disorder.

[...of J.Temperance]

192. Even though the Oxford Dictionary states that

A psychopath/sociopath is someone with a mental disorder. Okay.

[kestrel91316]

92. Bundy was a sociopath, almost the very definition of

deliberate evil. They know what they are doing hurts others, and they truly do NOT care.

Psychosis is mental disease. Craziness. Biochemical mixup in the brain, so severe they can hear voices, and are very delusional and even can be a danger to themselves and others without true awareness of the fact.

[susanna]

98. Ted Bundy was actually sociopathic...

...or psychopathic, as it is sold to the masses (titillating, isn't it?). For the record, that is completely different from psychotic. Ted Bundy was NOT psychotic by any account.

Back to the thread topic: ANYONE lying about an episode of a TV show to convict another human being of murder should be prosecuted as well, IMHO.

[LostinVA]

122. I know -- why isn't Dietz up for perjury?

Or even worse?

[raccoon]

137. Psychotic? I agree Bundy was a sociopath,

but I don't know about psychotic.

Was that his defense at his trial?

[...of J.Temperance]

171. He tried to say he was insane...The Visionary Type

There is what they call The Visionary Type of killer, this person feels compelled to murder because he hears voices OR sees visions ordering him to kill certain types of people. This type is often psychotic.

This is where I read that - it's the FIFTH paragraph down and the intro to the fifth paragraph begins: "Ronald Holmes, a criminologist at the University of Louisville..." Holmes has identified FOUR sub-types of serial killer and the first is The Visionary Type:

http://www.criminalprofiling.ch/character.html

Above in one of the posts, somebody said that Andrea Yates was taken off her medication, and that she was hearing voices in her head telling her to kill her children because she was a bad Mother.

If one goes on this, then Yates, could very well constitute the Visionary Type of killer...hearing voices ordering her to kill certain types of people, her children.

On further reading, I've found that Ted Bundy was found NOT to be a psychotic, although I believe that him claiming to be psychotic and insane was a part of his defense.

On further reading, I've found that I did CERTAINLY confuse the terms psychotic and psychopathic and also sociopathic. Which I've previously admitted and apologized for confusing these terms.

I'm not entirely sure if psychopaths and sociopaths CAN tell the difference between right and wrong. I'm informed that psychotics cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. So I'm going to read up on whether psychopaths and sociopaths also CANNOT tell the difference between right and wrong.

You know, I'm perfectly open-minded and I'm perfectly willing to LEARN more about this subject.

[Horse with no Name]

23. But why judge HER because of other people's prejudices?

Judge HER by the law...just as everyone should be judged. Attack the system when it fails a black person--Andrea Yates has nothing to do with that.
A key prosecution expert witness perjured himself on the stand. She deserves a new trial on that basis alone.
She was and still is mentally ill.
What she did was horrific, however, she is mentally ill.
She is being medicated for her psychosis, and when she is mentally "well", she grieves for her children and is horrified at what she has done.
She doesn't deserve to be a free woman, but she doesn't belong in prison, she belongs in a mental institution.
Her husband should have been considered an accomplice in the murders as well...instead, he is divorcing her and trying to find another broodmare to birth all of his spawn.

[...of J.Temperance]

30. Alright, let her have a new trial...Frances Newton MIGHT have liked one

And lets see where the chips fall.

But I hope that some people can see that if Andrea Yates were NOT white, she wouldn't have a snowballs hope in Hell's chance of being given a new trial.

What ABOUT Frances Newton? Frances Newton, she murdered her children, she became religious on Death Row...she was executed. And she was black.

So, maybe Frances Newton deserved a new trial too? Maybe she had mental problems too?

[mondo joe]

32. Since Newton said she didn't do it, what difference would "mental

problems" make?

[...of J.Temperance]

35. Well they probably executed an innocent woman

Andrea Yates hasn't said she didn't do it, and yet she gets another chance.

I'm pro-Death Penalty, but I'm NOT for possibly innocent people being executed because they can't afford a proper defense team or because of the color of their skin...and then other people buying their way off ala OJ Simpson and being given another shot like Andrea Yates.

Were talking life and death here, they ALL therefore should be given the same chances.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[...of J.Temperance]

43. So you admit that she is a murderess

She murdered five innocent children and I think she knew what she was doing.

[mondo joe]

44. She admits she killed her children.

Murder is a legal finding - one that is now in appeal.

But you've established you don't care about actual law.

[...of J.Temperance]

56. I do care about the law...what I don't like though

What I DON'T like is that there's ONE law for a white, Born-Again Christian woman who murdered five innocent children...and there's ANOTHER law for a black, Born-Again Christian woman who murdered her children.

One law says that one gets a new trial. The other law says one just gets executed.

This is what I don't like. It's not that I don't care about the law, it's that the law is biased in terms of race.

[mondo joe]

60. You've established that you don't care about law or medicine when

you disregarded both.

And how is the LAW biased in terms of race? Where in the law do you find that?

[Nikki Stone 1]

100. So the psychotic Yates should not receive justice because some juries are

racist?

Each case should be decided on its own merits. Instead of desiring the death penalty for Yates simply because she is white, you should ask some people who know about psychosis why Yates is a good example of an insanity case. Judge the case on its merits instead of hating Yates because she is a white woman.

[Bridget Burke]

117. Let me tell you about another Texas woman who killed her children.

In 2003, Deanna Laney bludgeoned two sons to death; a third survived, blind & brain damaged. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity and faced "confinement to a forensic psychiatric facility for an unspecified period of treatment."

www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/05/laney/

Ms Laney was a highly religious woman & attended church; her brother was her pastor. Randy Yates followed the teachings of traveling evangelist Michael Woroniecki but the family did not attend church. Churches can offer social support--but there was none for Andrea. Deanna Laney had no history of mental problems, but Andrea did.

However, all of Ms Laney's psychiatrists testified that she had been insane, so she got the better verdict.

Race is not the only consideration.

[LostinVA]

124. The law is often based on race, but not in this case

This white, Born Again woman was pillored in the press and across the nation, because of ignorance of mental health issues and because of a lying "star" witness. And, the cases you're commenting on did NOT have the mental illness issues that exist in the Yates case.

And, all of this is a frigging moot point, anyway. Yates shouldn't eb penalized because of some other DA or jury making a decision on race. Give me a break.

Butt, as Mondo says, you don't seem to give a good damn about either the law, medicine, or justice.

[Nikki Stone 1]

47. "I think she knew what she was doing" ; That's how a lot of people FEEL

But only trained mental health professionals could actually testify one way or the other as to that.

[...of J.Temperance]

49. Okay

Yates has been granted a new trial, so she's permitted under the law to a second chance and she's very lucky in a lot of peoples' eyes.

[Nikki Stone 1]

61. Lucky? I don't know about that. Is it lucky to be psychotic ?

And be inadequately treated medically? Taken off your meds with no backup therapy or social support? And then, to have the psychosis take over again so you kill the children you love because the voices are telling you that you are a bad mother?

I don't know if that's lucky.

A new trial will do what the old one should have done--actually take her medical state seriously.

[LostinVA]

125. And is it lucky to have a lying "star witness" who seems to have

tipped the jury scales toawards conviction?

[LostinVA]

123. She killed them, she didn't murder them

Their is a legally and moral distinction that goes towards intent, extenuating circumstances, and mental stability.

[...of J.Temperance]

180. Could you elaborate on this please?

"She killed them, she didn't murder them"

Thanks.

[mondo joe]

182. Murder is a legal finding. Killing is an action.

It is possible to kill without murdering.

Yates was found guilty of murder once, but that is now being appealed.

If found not guilty, she will necessarily be not guilty of murder.

[LostinVA]

188. MJ -- thanks for answering , I have the poster on "Ignore"

[...of J.Temperance]

205. I'm not bothered that you do n/t

[...of J.Temperance]

206. Okay

I understand the difference now, thanks.

Oh and I'm not bothered that LostInVa has me on ignore, I wouldn't respond to any of their posts for all the tea in China. I gave Oxford Dictionary definations and LostInVa ignored those too.

[Nikki Stone 1]

31. I think her doctor also bears some of the blame. Malpractice for taking

her off Haldol too soon and leaving her without ANY therapeutic support: no therapy, no social worker, nada.

[mondo joe]

24. Too bad DU doesn't prevent you from editing after responses have

been posted. :eyes:

[...of J.Temperance]

36. I thought my first response

Was a bit too close to the knuckle...I admit that, and you yourself told me it was in bad form.

So I re-read it and I agreed with that too. So, I edited it.

[Jacobin]

10. Its very sad.

Her life is ruined, her children were murdered, and the judicial system and prosecutor are playing parlor games with which angel dancing on the head of pin is the reason to keep her in jail...which is where she will undoubtedly remain.

I'm a lawyer and I hate our fucking criminal 'justice' system.

[Nikki Stone 1]

12. The woman had a long term history of psychosis

She had been off Haldol less than 2 weeks with NO MENTAL HEALTH backup (therapy, social services, etc.) when she drowned her kids. Her history was known, so in my opinion, there is some medical malpractice involved.

The case should have been a slam dunk Not Guilty by reason of insanity.

[FyurFly]

37. Perhaps i'm biased...

But she needs to die. She killed 5 kids, I wont except anything but the death penalty.

[mondo joe]

40. So you don't believe in a fair trial?

Or the law?

[FyurFly]

51. She needs a fair trial

But i'm sorry I don't accept the whole "i'm on meds, i'm fucking psycho" excuse.

SHE KILLED HER 5 FUCKING KIDS!

[mondo joe]

54. I missed the "I'm on meds, I'm fucking psycho" defense - can you

explain a bit more of how that went?

Which meds was she on, per your argument?

What does "psycho" translate into in an actual diagnosis?

[FyurFly]

58. No medical condition

no matter what it is, excuses the murder of 5 children.

[mondo joe]

62. So you don't believe in any diminished capacity no matter

how psychotic or mentally incapacitated a person is?

[Lex]

68. These are the same kind of people who want mentally retarded

people executed too.

They don't understand the concept that civilized societies don't punish people with diminished capacity the same as those who don't have diminished capacity.

Fry the mentally ill, the retarded, the 10 year olds is okay with them, I suppose.

[FyurFly]

71. If they murder then yes

A murder is a murder. Man or women enough to take a life, man or women enough to loose your life.

[Lex]

72. Okay then. I assume even if it's self-defense? A rule is a rule, right?

You "take a life" then you "loose" (sic) your life.

[FyurFly]

74. Are you equating SD to murder? n/t

[Lex]

76. You said you "take a life" then you "loose" (sic) a life.

Your rule.

Your words.

[mondo joe]

78. You've already established that you'd accept no legal defense. n/t

[FyurFly]

85. No, I cant accept a insanity defense

I cant and never will. If there is no physical evidence to support the case that's one thing. I need to read up on the case, but does she deny physically killing her kids? Or is her defense based totally on this insanity nonsense?

[mondo joe]

87. Sorry, but since you have no regard for law or science I don't see

a point in continuing this.

[FyurFly]

88. your right

I'm going to research postpartum psychosis to inform myself, but i'm stubborn on these things.

[Ikonoklast]

97. Insanity is a legal term

Not a medical one.

My ex-wife suffered from schizo-affective disorder, severe depression with paranoid delusions. She put my three children enough risk that the guardian ad-litem appointed by the court (at my request) had her removed from my home. She had been on Haldol to control her delusions and then without my knowledge her psychiatrist took her off it, stone cold. Within two weeks she had a psychotic break from reality.

She thought airplanes were sending her messages when they flew overhead. She thought our house was bugged with listening devices. She thought she was being followed by the police and other government agents. She heard voices and secret messages from the radio. She endangered the lives of my children, the details of which I will not go into here. Now you tell me that a person SUFFERING from this hideous sickness is just bullshitting everyone. She had absolutely no idea of what she was doing at the time. It destroyed our marriage, and her life. It damn near killed me.

You are speaking from ignorance, but are proud of it. You and the other poster that have NO CLUE as to what the difference between a psychosis and a sociopath is make me furious.

[...of J.Temperance]

101. Can I just admit

That unfortunately I did confuse psychosis with being a sociopath and a psychopath (Bundy, Gacy et al) And it's shocking to me as well that I did.

I do have great concerns about what constitutes fairness in Capital Punishment cases, so I must stand by the comments I made regarding those concerns of fairness. I do still believe that Andrea Yates is guilty and that she did murder five innocent children.

However, I'd like not to be lumped in with that other poster. That other poster has posted some extreme things, things which I do not believe in or condone...turning over Andrea Yates to the other prisoners for example.

You know, it's not a good idea to revert back to being savages.

[LostinVA]

130. You're right -- they're proud of their ignorance

And that's the worst part. *sigh*

I hope your ex-wife is doing better. That's such a horrible thing for people to have to deal with... especially when you get no understanding nor compassion from people... like some of the posters on this board.

[...of J.Temperance]

134. I actually did apologize

For my ignorance over confusing psychotic with psychopath and sociopath. And NO, I'm NOT proud that I confused those things.

But you know, I'm ALSO not proud enough, that I CAN'T admit when I make a mistake and fuck-up big time.

However, I stick by my other comments re. the racial bias in Capital Punishment cases and I stick by my supporting Capital Punishment.

And I do possess compassion and understanding.

[LostinVA]

142. I was referring to some other people on this thread

And, no one argued with you about capital punishment or racial bias in capital punishment. I am firml;y anti death penalty, partly because of the racial and classist bias in arrests, convictions, and sentencing. (because rich people, regardless of race, don't tend to go to Death Row)

[Beelzebud]

178. I hear you.

I'm actually anti-death penalty.

Read my post and down. They jumped all over me too. To the point where I just ignored them.

They claimed I said she should be executed, when I was saying she should get life in prison.

They said I was "freeperesque"

they said I was "Bush Like"

They said I was "Like the poeple that supporte invading Iraq based on 9/11"

All because I think that if you murder your children you should be in prison for life...

[mondo joe]

183. Acting on emotion rather than science and law is, of course,

Bush like - it's the entire basis of support for the war on Iraq.

[...of J.Temperance]

195. They refuse to consider another side of the argument

They even refuse to agree that a psychopath has a mental disorder, even though I gave them the Oxford Dictionary defination of psychopath which directly states that it IS a mental disorder.

I'm then informed that psychopaths DON'T have a mental disorder, which is a medical condition, but they have a personality disorder.

I read up today on these terms and I can now tell the difference between a psychopath and a psychotic.

It seems to me that a lot of the people in this thread, don't even seem to think Andrea Yates should get even life in a special hospital, they wouldn't even answer that when I asked it...I was attacked over EVEN asking would they set her free or give her life in hospital.

Oh and the suggestion was also made that I'm a troll "I'm not feeding you anymore"

Well I'm not a troll. It's very sad when if you have a differing opinion you get beaten up on and called a troll.

[mondo joe]

196. Your argument has been considered, and has been found sorely

lacking.

You already made itclear you didn't care what the science or law said on these matters. In several posts you demonstrated a remarkable ignorance of the basic facts of this case and others.

Why would anyone take your argument on a legal matter seriously when you don't understand or care about the law involved?

A differing opinion doesn't make you a troll. But an uninformed opinion doesn't make you much better

[...of J.Temperance]

201. And almost bullying people

When they're asking questions could be considered "bush like" too, jumping all over people like LostInVa did with me.

I was trying to learn about this psychosis thing, it's not like I can do that overnight, but at least I'm willing to learn.

But I bet there's some people in this thread who would literally physically beat someone up over Andrea Yates...and that's not right and it's not fair.

[mondo joe]

203. One tends to get a better response why they wait until they

understand a topic to make a few dozen posts about it.

[...of J.Temperance]

207. Yes well,

LostInVa was slightly out of order to the point of being a bully.

[Beelzebud]

198. Agreed.

They said I was reacting emotionally, and unscientifically about this...

Then they called me Bush like, freeperesque, and said I was like the people that supported the Iraq war...

Not very consistant.

See. You and I actually disagree. I don't believe in the death penalty. But that is not going to cause me to attack you.

To be perfectly honest, it's cases like these that test my anti-death penalty view the most. My "emotional" reaction is to put her to death. My "rational" reaction is to say she should be in prison for the rest of her miserable life.

Is mental illness real? Of course it is. But when you drown 5 of your children in a bathtub, like I said, I don't care what the excuse is. It's time for prison. Putting her in a mental home serves no purpose. She will not be rehabilitated, and she should never see the light of day.

[LostinVA]

128. "Nonsense"??? Seriously, educate yourself on mental illness

WTF is wrong with people in this country? Why do they see mental illness as a moral/emotional failing? It's a bloody MEDICAL CONDITION. This isn't a personality disorder like being a sociopath, it's medical.

God. They need to start teaching some stuff in schools.

[...of J.Temperance]

139. But aren't some personality disorders also medical conditions?

Isn't schizophrenia also a personality disorder as well as a medical condition?

Schizophrenia: a mental disease marked by a breakdown in the relation between thoughts, feelings and actions, frequently accompanied by delusions.

This is what the Oxford Dictionary defination of schizophrenia is. Isn't it therefore a personality disorder and a medical condition... Risperdal and Lithium they put schizophrenics on I believe.

Please don't go off on me, I think I'm asking a legitimate question.

[LostinVA]

157. Personality disorders aren't a medical issue, no

Schizophrenia is a medical condition, notice it's called a mental disease. It can be almost always treated with meds, except in very, very severe cases, just like some physical medical conditions. Sociopathic disorders are an innate part of the person, like being left-handed, or straight, or prone to talking alot. It can';t be treated in a medical way.

See? I didn't go off on you!

Many people are really uneducated about this. I majored in history and English and am in an educational field, but this is something I've studied, because I was lacking the knowledge.

[FyurFly]

69. A killer is a killer

Mentally ill, ignorant, mentally retarded you name it. A killer is a killer. I know to many of you I must come off as a cold hearted sonuvabitch but this women killed 5 kids. She could have had enough "psycho rage" to have offed herself, but alas she did not. personally I would turn her over to the gen pop of her prison and let the other women inmates decide her fate.

[mondo joe]

73. I don't care how cold your heart is, only how inadequate your reasoning is

In fact you seem rather hot headed, not cold hearted.

It's one thing to be upset, as you clearly are. But another to be so out of control as to abandon law and science by ignoring both the meaning of psychotic, or the importance of men rea.

[FyurFly]

79. If she was found not guilty

for reasons of insanity, Do you think she should walk out of prison a free women?

And yes I am hotheaded. Yates angers me only slightly more than the Susan Smith women who watched her kids drown in the car.

[mondo joe]

83. Do I think that? No.

I think if found not guilty by reason of insanity she should be treated until such time as found safe to be released, if ever.

It's a good thing we have law based on reason instead of angry out of control people.

[LostinVA]

132. And that's why I'm anti death penalty

Because emotions should never be part of taking someone's life in a legal forum. All is does is feed some twisted sense of vengeance... it doesn't restore anyone's life.

"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord; I will repay." from Romans. I'm no longer Christian, but I believe this.

Also, people are often railroaded.

[Jo March]

176. I'm so glad you brought that up, LostinVA!!!

Fundies like to say, "An eye for an eye" but they don't realize that "an eye for an eye" actually tells us to never dole out more punishment than the crime is worth. You know - like if someone threatens your dad, you don't make up lies about WMDs and declare war.

And God did say, "I will repay." I truly believe that as well.

Of course, it's very difficult to argue with folks when the spelling and grammar is so...well, like that other website that I don't visit.

[LostinVA]

191. I know, threads like this make me think DU has a psychosis

Seriously... then, I just hope that all is means is that out of 80,000 users, some will not be progressive... does that make sense? I'm home sick and on serious meds today!

[Jo March]

217. Well, I can't take someone seriously who refers to

"that Susan Smith women." I mean, that is just too...whatever.
:eyes:
DUers, for the most part, are progressive but this case just really strikes a nerve with people.

Get to feeling better. :hug:

[Lex]

75. Why don't we just open up the stadium and let the lions tear her apart.

Would that be okay with you?

Or stoning her to death?

I mean, since you are okay with letting other inmates tear her apart.

Sounds like the Taliban-style rule would be something you might like?

[FyurFly]

81. I usually believe in justice...

Usually, not guilty for reasons of insanity is a big issue with me. I freely admit that i'm biased on this issue. If a person is insane then perhaps they should recieve treatment for their ailment, after they are healed then they can serve their sentence wetehr it be life in prison or death.

[Maddy McCall]

214. Can you, off the top of your head, name two cases where...

someone was found not guilty for reason of insanity? It's a right-wing myth that it happens so frequently.

Indeed, it is VERY VERY rare.

[Beelzebud]

189. How about we just put her in prison for the rest of her life.

For the murder of her FIVE children.

[NMMNG]

102. "A killer is a killer"

Not necessarily true. There are mental illnesses that can significantly alter a person's capacity to make informed and decisions on a short or long-term basis. If a person is not receiving treatment, or is receiving inadequate treatment they may not be responsible for certain actions they commit while influenced by their illness. Depression, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Disorder and Disassociative Identity Disorder are just a few of the illnesses that can affect a person in such a way.

[Lex]

65. No one is "excusing" the muder of the 5 children

by showing her state of mind and her mental illness.

[LostinVA]

127. She killed, she didn't murder

And yeah, it does legally excuse" her, to the extent that she'll be placed in an institution, not a prison.

On meds, she's aware of what she did and it tortures her. She isn't going scot free by any means of the imagination. She'll be locked up in some way for most of her life, I expect, but it should be in the proper place.

Please, educate yourself on what mental illness, especially psychosis is. Yates didn't blithely kill her kids. She was a time bomb waiting to go off, and many, many people helped light the fuse.

[Nikki Stone 1]

66. She actually had just been taken OFF her meds; that was the problem

She killed her kids within two weeks of being taken off the meds.

[Nikki Stone 1]

45. Yeah, you're biased. And a lot of people feel that way, but LEGALLY

she was provably psychotic at the time of the killings and deserves a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity.

She was 10 days off of Haldol and a had a history of psychosis.

What she did was heinous, no question. But arguably, had the doctor kept her on her meds and provided her with adequate mental health backup (talk therapy, a social worker, etc.), the crime would never have happened.

[FyurFly]

55. If GWB nuked soem folks

Then later in a war crimes trubunal was proven to be "not guilty for reasons of insanity" would you be ok with that?

[mondo joe]

64. If the evidence supported that defense, why would one be

opposed to it?

[blue neen]

82. The last time I checked GWB was not a woman, incapable of giving birth,

and therefore he would never have postpartum psychosis.

"Post-partum psychosis is very rare. It is not so much a variety of post-partum depression as it is an entity onto itself. It is characterized by homicidal and suicidal impulses, hallucinations, delusions, disorganized and bizarre thinking.

The dilemma is that these individuals usually refuse treatment. This is a medical emergency situation. If post-partum psychosis is suspected, families need to call 911 as emergency intervention is necessary. Medication most likely will be prescribed. The ultimate goal is to keep the baby and mother safe.

Research shows that approximately one woman in 1,000 births will experience post-partum psychosis.

As with treating any psychosis, we need to first rule out any physiological cause such as thyroid storms, seizure disorders or drug-induced psychosis. Once ruled out, treatment is crucial. However before individual or group therapy, medication must be given to alleviate the psychotic symptomatolgy. In many cases, anti-psychotic medication is administered only for a short period of time. Once the psychosis abates, couple counseling, as well as individual counseling, can be of benefit."

http://www.peaceandhealing.com/psychosis/postpartum.asp

Who was calling 911 to get emergency intervention for Andrea Yates and her children? No one, not even that pinhead of a husband she had.
This woman had no one supporting her. Hallucinations are very common with this illness, and it's very likely that she had no idea what she was doing.

It's time for people who have not walked in the post-partum psychosis shoes to stop being so judgemental...especially when there is not even the most remote possiblity that you will ever get it.

[FyurFly]

86. I will research

postpartum psychosis to further inform myself.

[blue neen]

89. That would be admirable.

It is obviously a VERY serious mental illness.

[tallahasseedem]

107. You probably should have done this..

before you shot off your mouth. I had a mild case of post partum depression and it was some of the scariest stuff I have ever gone through. My symptoms were no where near Mrs. Yates. She had a long, unrelenting history of psychosis and both her Doctor and her Husband failed her. Should she be set free? Absolutely not. But her case and Susan Smith's are two totally different things. For you to even infer that is absurd.

[FyurFly]

116. If I offended you I apologize

However, I fell free to "shoot my mouth off" any god damn time I please, even if i'm out of line or wrong we live in a country with free speech. Again if I offended you i'm sorry.

[tallahasseedem]

179. By all means,

feel free to shoot your mouth off about something you admittedly know nothing about. :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

109. You said that a few posts ago.

You also need to read up on the Yates case.

[Nikki Stone 1]

96. IF * had a demonstrable history of psychosis and was left untreated

that would certainly mitigate. But it would be hard to sell the idea that the leader of the free world had no access to mental health care.

[NNadir]

106. Well, were she black and poor, she'd already be dead.

There'd be no new trial. And no one would give a shit about her, whatever her reasoning was. Probably there'd be some muttering about "welfare queen," but that would be all, and maybe some private giggling over the whole matter, along with the suggestion that she, like her children should had been killed by being pushed under water laden with feces and urine.

I really feel for you that state murder isn't even more perfunctory so that it could include well off white people convicted after sham trials with lying witnesses.

Maybe we should decide these cases with on line polls, so that complete strangers with no intimate knowledge of the case can decide it on its media merits. What say you?

[Nikki Stone 1]

110. Poor yes. Middle or upper middle class, I don't know.

Defenses like these take good attorneys, money and contacts. It's more an issue of class than color. And it doesn't mean that Andrea Yates shouldn't get a fair trial (without perjured testimony) because she is white and had some means.

However, I'm with you on suspending the death penalty. There are far too many people on death row being proved innocent after the fact.

[NNadir]

126. For me, the issue of executing innoncents has no bearing on...

...how I feel about the death penalty.

I would still regard it as being wrong if it were known that all of those subject to it were guilty.

As it is, the death penalty can never been abstracted from the question of class and race, since not everyone who commits murder is subject to it.

However even if the death penalty were universally applied to all murderers irrespective of class and/or race, I would still be against it.

I simply believe that the only effect of killing people under these circumstances is to make killing seem like an appropriate act. I note that the definition of killing as an appropriate act is precisely the notion embraced by murderers, whether or not their thought process is being thought of as "sane" or otherwise.

That the act committed by Ms. Yates was wrong, does not make the act of killing her right.

[Lex]

59. At trial, her husband said she got the idea from a CSI show

with a similar storyline.

But of course it was found out later THERE WAS NO CSI SHOW with a similar storyline.

Her husband is a POS, imho.

[Nikki Stone 1]

104. I think it was Law and Order. CSI isn't mentioned in the news accounts

I've seen. I don't even think it was on the air when she killed her kids, but I don't watch the show, so I'll let a fan correct me. :)

[Bunny]

105. It was not her husband who said this.

It was a witness for the prosecution. Not her husband. That is why she is getting a new trial - because a witness for the prosecution made an inaccurate statement, which could have unfairly influenced the jury.

[Beelzebud]

108. Drown you kids in a bathtub, you should get life in prison.

I don't give a shit what psychosis you had, or what God was telling you to do.

You drown your own fucking children in a bathtub, you are the lowest form of shit on the planet, and you should be in prison for the rest of your life.

Done...

[Nikki Stone 1]

114. So are you opposed to all insanity defenses?

That would be the natural consequence of your statements.

Some people are.

But mental illnesses like psychosis are mind altering to the extent that it is hard to assess a level of blame. Especially when the condition is so severe that it has been medically documented and treated with a powerful drugs like Haldol.

Don't get me wrong here: what Yates did was heinous. But, there was a clear history of severe mental illness. Her doctor and her husband were aware of the situation. The doctor (an MD, I think) placed her on Haldol temporarily and then took her off the drug: within 2 weeks of having been taken off the drug, she killed her children. One could argue that if the doctor had been doing his job--kept her on Haldol, got her backup therapy (which he did not), got a social worker to look in on her everyday (again, he did not)--Yates would have gotten through the bout of psychosis and not killed her children.

One could also argue that her husband could have insured that she was never alone with the children by hiring a nanny or some kind of help during the day. The presence of another adult would have also prevented at least some of those murders. The fact that Randy Yates left his 5 children with a known psychotic argues that he should been co-tried with his wife, at least for child endangerment.

Ultimately, we are responsible for our own actions under normal circumstance, but psychosis is so mind-altering that it is difficult to assess a level of responsibility. Let me ask you: if you were her doctor, would you send Yates back to her family with no backup and take her off her meds? If you were her husband, knowing her history with psychosis, would you leave your children alone with her all day? Especially knowing that she was just coming off her meds?

No matter how much you blame Yates, you have to understand that she was not her right mind, but that there were people around her who WERE and who did not act. If you are going to punish Yates, you should also punish her doctor and her husband who were responsible for leaving 5 children with a psychotic killer.

[Horse with no Name]

120. I totally agree

and this is the crux of the matter.
This is a woman who DID love her children.
She snapped and had a break with reality and during that break, she did something so horrific that even if society would forgive this, I doubt she could ever forgive herself.
Her husband knew her mental state.
He knew she was fragile at best, homicidal at worse.
He had the money to hire a nanny or babysitter.
He could have put the children in daycare.
He could have given the woman a fucking break.
However, he did not. He controlled the home and finances.
Yes we can argue that is insane in today's society, but blame it on the Christian fundamentalism that women belong in the home raising children.
He is as culpable--if not more so--than Andrea Yates.

[Beelzebud]

131. If you drown your kids in a bathtub, i don't care what the excuse is.

You're damn right she wasn't in her right mind.

Is that an excuse to give her a pass on drowning her children?

I don't think so..

[LostinVA]

133. No one said give her a pass -- she needs to be

institutionalized. She had severe psychosis. I'll say it again: your lack of understanding this medical condition is appalling, and I honestly and sincerely hope no one in your family is ever affected by anything like this. Like Alzheimer's, it is a walking death in a dark land of an alternate, delusional reality. In Yates' case, proper spousal and medical care could have prevented this.

Shame on you and everyone else on this thread for being so uncomapssionate about people suffering from this incapacitating MEDICAL condition.

No one on here is suggesting she get let out of prison with no qualifiers. No one.

[Beelzebud]

135. Lets put it this way:

If my sister drowned her children in a bathtub, she better hope the cops find her before I do.

Abortion comes BEFORE the children are old enough to take baths.

I'm appalling? No, the evil woman that drowned her children in a fucking bathtub is appalling. And people coming to her defense because she has "psychosis" are appalling.

When you drown children in a bathtub, I stop giving a shit about your mental stability. It's obvious she is screwed up in the head. Anyone who would drown their children is. Put them in prison where they belong.

I suppose Jeff Dahmer should have just been put in an institution? Afterall, no sane person would be a mass murderer...

[LostinVA]

140. Again, you showcase your ignorance

Dahmer was a sociopath; he had no psychosis.

Yates is not evil. People with mental illnesses are not evil. That IS an appalling opinion for a progressive site like DU. WE who defend killing mentally ill people are not appalling, we are people who are educated in this matter and are true progressives. A civilized, educated populace does not imprison or/and execute mentally ill or mentally handicapped people. They can be institutionalized if they are a danger, yes. But not convicted or imprisoned because of THEIR MEDICAL ILLNESS.

And, if your sister had a severe psychosis and drowned her children, you should feel compassion for her suffering for her illness, at the same time you grieve for your nieces and nephews and for your desire to make sure your sister never inadvertently hurts anyone again. And, if her psychosis was so severe she would do that, then maybe you should ask yourself why you and your other family members never helped her, because mental illness that severe is not silent, si not hidden. And, if you murdered your sister for that, then you should be imprisoned for life without parole. If your sister murdered her sister in cold blood and you kill her, you should still be put away for life, as should she have been, because those who are mentally sane and murder someone have purposely taken a life.

I reiterate: your lack of understanding and compassion towards mental illness is appalling and not suited for 2005.

[Beelzebud]

143. My compassion for mental illness stops when they murder their children.

[mondo joe]

146. Compassion aside, it's unfortunate to see DU posters choose

to abandon basic legal principles like diminished capacity.

You don't have to have a compassionate bone in your body - but a reasoned one would help.

[Beelzebud]

148. What is unreasonable? Murder your children = Jail for life.

[mondo joe]

152. What is unreasonable is your abandonment of the legal principle of

mens rea, or state of mind.

The law is supposed to be dispassionate - not an out of control hothead.

I see the plague of Freeperesque "let's not think about it, let's just hit something to relieve our frustration" thinking has spread to DU.

[Beelzebud]

156. So I'm Bush-Like, and Freeperesque, because I think a woman

that kills her kids should be in prison for the rest of her life?

So be it. It makes no fucking sense, but so be it.

[mondo joe]

158. No - because you abandon law and science in order to act out

on your emotions.

[Beelzebud]

159. There is no science here. Kill you kids, go to jail. n/t

[mondo joe]

162. Of course - because you have no interest in the science, or the

law for that matter.

Documented psychosis? Ignore it. Mind altering drugs? Ignore it. Legal principle of state of mind? Ignore it.

Reminds me of people who want to go to war with Iraq over 911.

[Beelzebud]

164. Reminds you of ppl who want to go to war in Iraq over 9/11?

Ok. I'm ignoring you too.

Kill your kids you get jail.

Invade a country that didn't do anything to you, you should be impeached.

Suggest that I'm a freeper, Bush-like, or support our illegal invasion of a country that did nothign to us, I put you on my ignore list.

[mondo joe]

166. Yes - people who ACT OUT from emotion rather than any sort

of scientific or legal foundation.

[LostinVA]

147. Again, you showcase your lack of understanding

Murder and killing is not the same, especially done in the fog of delusion caused by psychosis.

When you wish to debate facts, I'll be eager to discuss. Until then, I am exercising the new rules and informing you I'm putting you on ignore. I do not agree with those who believe mental ill people deserve to be murdered by either the State, other prisoners, or enraged relatives. This is a Progressive site, not FR or some other backwards discussion board.

I pray, Beezelbud, that your sister or no one else you love is ever affected by an illness like this. I have seen it up close, and it is soul shattering. If it does ever happen, remember these posts of yours.

[Beelzebud]

150. I never said they should be executed. They should get LIFE IN PRISON.

Saying that "murder and killing is not the same" is about the most twisted logic I've seen in a very long time.

Tell those kids that are now dead, that there is a difference.

LIFE IN PRISON IF YOU MURDER YOUR CHILDREN.

[mondo joe]

154. Killing is an act. Murder is a legal finding. Why anyone would wish to

discuss a legal matter but choose to ignore actual legal definition is a mystery to me.

[LostinVA]

165. Murder and killing aren't the same

Either legally or ethically. Your thinking they are is what's twisted as hell. Murder has to meet certain legally definitions, one being mental capacity or the lack thereof. What Mondo Joe keeps referring to. Morally and ethically: is someone tries to rape you and you kill them, that is not murder. If an old man drives down a pedestrian mall running over and killing people, that could be murder. But not if he is senile. That's killing, and he was not imprisoned. Killing your kids while under severe psychosis is not murder.

I agree: if your murder your kids, life in prison. If you kill your kids while under severe psychosis, then you should be institutionalized. A civilized nation does not imprison mentally ill citizens.

If you have a problem with this, guess you better start emailing the courts and the APA.

[mondo joe]

168. I swear it's like trying to talk to a war supporter about how

there were no WMD's and how Iraq wasn't behind 911.

Some people just act out of emotion.

[LostinVA]

172. I know.... however, I love the "Ignore: feature

[Beelzebud]

161. Good. I'm putting you on ignore too.

[mondo joe]

163. On ignore - just like the law and science are on ignore.

I'm reminded of how Weapons Inspectors were on ignore.

[MamaBear]

141. Yes.

I'm still amazed that no charges were brought against the MD or the husband for leaving those children alone for extended periods with a woman who was in post-partum psychosis. That, to me, is the most incredible part of this whole story.

Yates is an educated man. His behavior here is, imo, inexcusable.

[Bridget Burke]

119. "Done...." for you, perhaps

But the story will continue.

[mondo joe]

145. Abandon concepts of law like mens rea - very very

Bush like.

[LostinVA]

149. Yes, calling mentally ill people the lowest sh*t on the planet

is very Bush-like.

[Beelzebud]

151. No. People that KILL THEIR CHILDREN are the lowest shit on the planet.

[LostinVA]

169. Nope, you called Yates the lowest shit on the planet

because she killed her kids. Even though she's a mentally ill woman. Same thing. Go reread your post.

[mondo joe]

160. Isn't it interesting that this woman was on a mind altering drug

but somehow there are people who feel State of Mind has nothing to do with the outcome.

[Beelzebud]

153. Bush like? If you kill your kids you should get prison for life.

That is now "Bush like"?

Sure...

[mondo joe]

155. What is Bush like is the abandonment of law and science in pursuit

of acting out on your emotions.

[gauguin57]

129. Will Tom Cruise testify as an expert witness for the prosecution?

This is gonna be a circus all over again. And we'll have to listen to that weird, holy-roller husband of hers, 24/7, on Fox, MSNBC and CNN. Rita Cosby and Nancy Grace will be flippin' foaming at the mouth.

Oh, man.

[LostinVA]

170. Too bad Redqueen's missing this

Her head would explode.

[Nikki Stone1]

210. Beezelbud, no matter how the trial ends up, this woman will be put away

for life. Either she will be put in jail or in a mental hospital. Either way, she'll be off the streets.

The more important matter is that people with psychosis are better taken care of by medical professionals and their families so that these kinds of horrific things don't happen. My fear is that putting Yates in jail for life ignores the role of others (doctor, husband, etc.) in creating this tragedy.

[LostinVA]

212. Good post... and btw Wecome to DU!

[...of J.Temperance]

213. Hold on...WHY are there TWO Nikki Stone 1's? One has 1000+ posts

And the other Nikki Stone 1 has 26 posts...and BOTH Nikki Stone 1's have disabled their user profiles?

*Scratches head*

[Nikki Stone 1]

215. There's only one Nikki. I registered a second time on my laptop at

school because I forgot my password. I would love to have them consolidated but I can't remember my password on the first account for the life of me. I am permanently logged in at home so I never have to worry about the password.

I guess I should just get a new password for the first account and delete the second.

[...of J.Temperance]

216. Okay, it's just that

That was very baffling :) I thought it was two different people with the same name...which had that of been the case, well that might have caused all sorts of confusion.

Anyhow, it's cleared up now, so there's no confusion.