Proposed Social Contract on the use of "Bitch" to describe a woman.

[benburch]

I propose that we all agree not to use that word to describe a woman, and that we all agree to put on ignore anybody who does so.

Who is with me on this?

[TimeChaser]

1. What if said woman is describing herself?

[benburch]

3. Just like a black person using the N-word. I'd give it a pass. nt

[beyurslf]

2. Can we use it to describe a man? I am fairly open to using it for anyone

regardless what they look like naked.

[benburch]

5. Civility would say "no".

But that is not in the scope of this proposal.

[Der Blaue Engel]

14. Honestly, I find it even more offensive to women when it's used on a man

as it implies a comparison to things feminine and therefore less/dominated/bottom/less than human.

[madeline_con]

21. When you're someone's (insert banned word here)...

you're a total loser!

BTW, "things feminine" are less than human? ???

[Der Blaue Engel]

38. That is the implication isn't it? To treat a woman as an object and

use a term for an animal to describe her? (Note, this is not MY opinion, in case you misunderstood me. I'm describing the intentions of the originators of the insult. As a woman, I most definitely do not feel I am less than human...I am the origin of life! :) )

[madeline_con]

40. Yes, it is, I suppose...

it's just that I was never that opposed to the word. I feel there are way worse, that are meaner.

[Der Blaue Engel]

43. It has dulled through hundreds of years of use

It doesn't bother me much, because I figure most people aren't using it that way, or don't realize its original intent. (Similarly, most people who say "you suck!" aren't actually implying someone is gay, or that being gay is a bad thing. The words have lost their bite.) I only find it more insulting when used to describe a man because I think the dehumanizing aspect of the term had a bit of a resurrection when it began being widely applied to men.

[Bluerthanblue]

50. your last comment

is at the root (i believe) of mans fear and need to dominate women-
Because they come out of us- and are reliant on us at their most vulnerable time in life- the very beginning.
(totally off topic, and i apologize, you just gave me an epiphany)

[RazzleDazzle]

84. Yes, and

I think their vulnerability and dependence on us continues through life, and they resent that. I think they resent our ability to give life (a necessary corollary to your hypothesis, actually), and I think they resent our inherently spiritual natures as well -- intuition, etc.

[Bluerthanblue]

47. no,

you are their best friend, in the true sense of the word-

And while we're discussing the 'sexist' words- bullshit is the excrement of a male cow- and is supposedly totally disgusting- bogus, worthless. Why is 'cow-shit' not a slur?

[TahitiNut]

53. Agreed. I believe cross-gender epithets are sexist.

Calling a male a "pussy" is demeaning to females in that it infers he's not qualified to be a (supposedly superior) male. (It also demeans an anatomical feature deserving of great respect.) Likewise, calling a woman a "prick" implies the same for females.

Here's a rather clear example: "Don't be such a girlie man!"

That's blatantly sexist and employs no vulgarity. It becomes sexist by the implication that the other gender is somehow, in and of itself, inferior. That's the core of sexism.

The word "bitch" becomes sexist only in it's cross-gender use, imho, or in ascribing it universally to all women. (Indeed, a blanket epithet applied to all persons of either gender is usually sexist.)

[Iris]

97. Yes. It's even worse when referring to a man.

[sproutster]

137. Actually it's used in my work...

To describe someone subservient and working under someone who has power over them.

"We are so and so's bitches"

...

Not sure how I feel about that, but we are not so and so's women, or so and so's wives...

Dunno. I'm a big one for slang at times.

[cally]

4. I'm with you. Thanks

[Rowdyboy]

6. I agree, so long as I can freely say sonovabitch, thats a bitch, etc....

When it really has nothing to do with women. Under those circumstances, I will use the word appropriately.

Words mean things.

[benburch]

7. Correct.

I am referring to the Epithet used in the context of a discussion with a woman or about a woman or the noun when used as an object of a sentence about a woman or grouping of women.

[Rowdyboy]

12. And in that case it would be crude and inappropriate...

I think we're on the same page.

[howmad1]

45. Oh C'mon.

I've seen dozens of bumper stickers on cars driven by women that say "I go from 0 to bitch in 60 seconds". We're making a mountain out of a molehill. Calling prez putz a MoFo or CS, now that's stepping way over the line. :sarcasm:

[Rowdyboy]

46. Sorry, man....There are some women I respect enormously who disagree

with you. I'm gonna side with them.

[madeline_con]

23. It also means "to complain" in some instances. eom

[mduffy31]

8. Gotta say no

I think if a woman uses it to describe herself I feel that it is her prerogative. Just like if I decide to refer to myself as a drunken mick, I can do that, but if you do it is insulting. Well not really, but I have a good sense of humor, but I digress. So if there is a blanket rule, who am I, a man, to tell a woman that she cannot refer to herself as a bitch? I can just see flame wars erupt because people don't like it, and we don't need to get bogged down with that kind of stuff when there are real issues. Now if some neanderthal is using it to describe a woman who stands up for herself then I would agree that is someone who is not worth listening to in the first place, but how often does that happen here?

[benburch]

13. As I responded above, I'd make an exception in the case of self-ID. nt

[lildreamer316]

Sorta agree.

My best friends and I will call each other this as a term of affection.
No, really. Helloooooo....
So, I would rather this not be an issue for censorship. Free society and all, ya know. If you outlaw it,it is gonna bite you in the end.

[benburch]

26. Which is why I am proposing we solve this SOCIALLY. nt

[lildreamer316]

32. Oh, duh on me.

You meant here on DU.
I'm an idiot.
I do agree with you.....sorry for the misinterpretation.

[Up2Late]

9. Testing the limits of TWO of the new rules I see...

...You're such a rebel Ben.

Me, I not gonna touch either.:hide:

[benburch]

11. Yes, but will you agree to the Contract? nt

[Up2Late]

39. Contract? I'm not signing any contracts...

...mainly because for someone to get me to call them that, they would most likely be tomb-stoned before I could reply, which I am sure I wouldn't.

I don't even know what they would have to do to get me to call in an alert, never done it.

The only time I put someone on ignore, is if they are being very disruptive to one of my threads or they follow me to another thread to hound me there too.

If they are just being an ass, I let the mods and the folks that have been here longer than me decide how to handle them. I found it's most effective to just unofficially ignore the morain and let the thread die a slow, but sure death (by dropping off the page).

Their are a lot of people here who feel they MUST have the last word, letting the thread die does that in the
most UN-satisfying way for those types.

[willing dwarf]

10. I'm with you, it's offensive and oppressive. Reinforces sexism.

[madeline_con]

15. Why's this paticular word getting so much press here?

I mean, to have its own rule and all.

There are worse. I never really considered it that earth shattering. Maybe that's just me. :shrug:

[benburch]

17. Honestly I am not sure!

But it gets so many people upset that I think we have to decide to do something to honor that fact without having to have a rule making us do it.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

34. Agreed

Bright line rules are for freepers. "Don't do your ironing in the bath." "Don't put antifreeze in your wife's Gatorade." "Don't look at kiddie porn on your own computer."

But is there a proscription against "teutonic twit?"

[Beelzebud]

16. Condaleeza Rice, Mary Matlin, Barbara Bush, Ann Coulter.

What do you propose we describe them as now?

No offense, but sometimes if the shoe fits........

[benburch]

18. Nazis.

Simple, no?

[Beelzebud]

20. Fair enough! :)

[femrap]

109. LOL...nazis...yeah, that is a much better description of those

women...

When referred to as the 'B' word by a male, I respond...' To you, Asshole, it's 'B' Goddess.'

I find the term insulting...and it is usually used by ignorant men...and I hope we don't have too many of those here at DU.

[arewenotdemo]

111. Judy Miller?

[madeline_con]

25. May I suggest "feces"?

[Beelzebud]

28. LOL

[benburch]

30. That works, too! nt

[trackfan]

35. I would think that would be worse.

[lukasahero]

57. How about calling them anything you would call shrub, chenney, rummy etc?

You've actually just proved the point that the reference is sexist because it's based on gender...

[noahmijo]

19. Can I call Dick Cheney a bitch?

[benburch]

22. Thug works better.

If Nazi does not appeal to you.

[madeline_con]

27. Not until he's behind bars. eom

[Cats Against Frist]

78. LOL

[NNN0LHI]

24. I don't like Ho no more either

You can tell the DU women have trained me pretty well over the years around here. They basically made me think. Which is good.

I would never criticize others for saying it but I won't use some stuff anymore.

Don

[cally]

90. You just made my day

After so many courageous women explaining to all of us why this is impoortant, it's wonderful to know that it made a difference. :yourock:

[femrap]

110. You should speak up....it's important that you stand up

for those that you respect....the world will be a better place when everyone shows respect and civility. Then I don't have to get all nasty and say mean 'feces' about men in defense of my gender.

[dweller]

29. nom'd

fwiw.


dp

[MamaBear]

31. I would like that

I cringe when I hear others use that word to reference a woman, and I'm not fond of it when used to describe a man. And maybe I can finally break myself of using it to refer to other non-canine beings.

Thanks, Ben.

[sleipnir]

33. No, not with you, sorry.

I don't favor the term, but I won't put people on ignore just because they feel the need.

[mondo joe]

36. No. I dislike use of ostracization to impose language restrictions.

In fact I'm pretty opposed to language restrictions.

[RazzleDazzle]

85. You oppose societal restructions aginst the use of words like

the N word, coon, kike, jap, wop, etc?

[mondo joe]

104. If those restrictions take the same form as this, yes, I do.

I'd rather see what someone says, and if I choose to, argue the points, rather than have them on ignore out of some pact.

[notadmblnd]

37. this is just silly...

I'm a female.. and it doesn't bother me a bit to be called a bitch. In fact it's more a badge of honor.

You see, when people have to resort to calling me or anyone else a name...then it gives me power over them. It means I can control their emotions using mere words over an anonamous internet.

Call me a bitch and my reply won't be some.... boo-hoo I can't take it, my feelings were hurt by some one I don't even know, I must hit alert... Nope...I'll say thank you!

[hiaasenrocks]

41. Nope. Any and all language restrictions are

off the table for me. I don't modify my speech for anyone, nor do I expect them to do it for me. People of any and all political stripes who want to have speech codes can forget it.

[lukasahero]

62. So you routinely use words like "n*gger" and "fagg*t"?

How about "Kike", "Spic", "Chink", "Wop", "Dike"? If you won't change your language to accommodate women's concerns, I can only assume you'd never change it to accommodate anyone else's feelings either. Just asking really...

[theboss]

73. I use Wop sometimes

Granted, it's generally used to descibe my family (and, well, Joe Paterno)....but still.

[DrunkenMaster]

103. not even close to the same thing

Your straw man is showing.

[drhilarius]

42. Could we also ignore people who use the word "prick"...

See, my prick is a good prick, and I think it is demeaning and stigmatizing to my prick to be associated with all the pricks that are bad. When someone uses the word prick is a general way, suggesting all pricks are bad, my prick is offended, my prick being good and having never offended anyone. Furthermore, to call someone a prick is to suggest that having a penis (being a male) is somehow inherently bad, thus "being a prick" is a negative prick. What has my prick done to deserve this?

Furthermore, let's eliminate use of the word "asshole"- men and woman are not assholes but rather total, self actualized human beings, not just a part, and, frankly, a lot of assholes are nicer, smell better, and more useful than a lot of the people I've met who have been described as "assholes".

also, let's ignore people who use "bastard". I don't want to be called a bastard because I have a father who claims me. That last sentence brings me to my next point: Those who don't have fathers are stigmatized by the word bastard and unmarried women who have children, I'm sure, would not appreciate the implication that their children are somehow less.

:sarcasm:

[sendero]

63. Why the sarcasm tag?

After all, the proposal, since it only included a word considered demeaning to females and not words demeaning to males, is sexist on its face.

I don't make a habit of calling women 'bitch' here, but I'm not interested in any concocted limits on my speech, the ones imposed by the board owners are plenty.

[jbnow]

120. Honestly

I think we use too many sexual terms as insults. Be it the male part, female part or saying someone is a fucker, cocksucker or can "kiss my ass".

They can't, I don't invite them too. Aren't these things all really, really good things? In the right company.
I like to save sexual comments and words...for the one I share those parts with in great delight. Not for the bush administration.

I must say I never considered your point on assholes, but you are correct. They are extremely useful.

[No Exit]

44. But wait... it's now an equal opportunity insult

First: I also find it very offensive when the word is thrown at a woman.

BUT nowadays the same word is used as an equally insulting epithet for men or boys.

PLUS: who the heck knows, on an internet forum, who is really a man, and who is a woman?

It's just an ugly word, no doubt about that. Yet, in some circumstances I don't object to it at all--for example, when it is used on a republican politician such as Bugman DeLay or Crying Billy Frist. Your mileage may vary; that's just my own point of view.

It's better to just know one's own comfort level and to take steps to protect it. Each individual can do this alone. I do this when I read, for example, stupid rightwing nut sites. I don't post in those places; I just leave off reading when I can't stand it any more.

Let's just leave it at that. If we (talking about us posters--not talking about the administrators) make too many small rules, it might make people reluctant to post spontaneously.

Just my opinion.

[Cleita]

48. I dunno.

I actually liked being called a bitch in the bad old days when men ruled the world and couldn't rule me. It meant I was in control. I was running a business (very legal and no sex involved) at the time and some jerks thought they could intimidate me.

[Raiden]

49. I'm an equal oppurtunity employer when it comes to sex-based insults

I think it's stupid to impose a language restriction...words are just words


To attach a stigma to a word only gives it more power

[RazzleDazzle]

86. But this isn't attaching stigma to the word, that's already been done

ages ago.

The word has plenty of power, else it wouldn't be an insult, and a gender-based one at that, which makes it sexist, which makes it harmful to women whether they recognize that or not.

[neebob]

51. Gee, I'd feel pretty hypocritical supporting this

while I remain free to call men dicks, pricks, and whatever else I feel like calling them. And I'm just not willing to engage in that much verbal self-censorship - it makes me a bitch! Sorry.

[carolinalady]

52. but I am .... and proud to be one! It was almost 40 years in the

making.

[sandnsea]

54. All those years we were prim and ladylike..

waiting and waitng for the day when we hit middle-age and could say whatever the fuck was on our minds...

okay, I've always been like that, I just don't worry about whether anybody else cares anymore.

And they want to take it away. x(

[BlueIris]

55. Nice post.

I've very disappointed in the responses of some of the ignorant, immature and sexist in this thread though.

People? It's called: C-U-L-T-U-R-A-L L-I-T-E-R-A-C-Y. Just because our president doesn't know anything about not respecting women like other intelligent members of the human race doesn't mean you have any excuse for following suit.

Thanks for trying anyway, benburch.

[kalibex]

56. Works for me.

Obviously, just the fact that so many people here couldn't break themselves of the habit speaks volumes about our current culture...as does also the fact that the closest 'equivalent' slur for a male isn't really equivalent.

[femrap]

112. What if the male is referred to as....

'bitchless?' Couldn't attract a bitch with all the chocolate, money and liquor in the world? I am just thinking...how is a male in our culture viewed if he can't attract a woman?

I don't mean offense...I am just thinking about how we use gender-based language to insult.

[Loonman]

58. What if we're discussing dog breeding?

Nothing wrong with calling things by their proper names.

[annabanana]

59. What about S.O.B.?

I fear we have greased a slippery slope with this ban..Should I also not be able to call a prick a prick?

[Loonman]

61. Only fair

I think.

Bitch or prick both go, or neither

[femrap]

113. But what if I 'prick' my finger???? nt

[jbnow]

125. S.O.B.

was a standing joke in my family. Sometimes I'd get on a bit of a rant with my kid and then catch myself and say "Aren't you a son of a bitch today" Hey I was being a bitch and he was my son.

We would laugh and get on with life.

Actually I am puzzled that bitch is such an issue. To bitch is like to kvetch isn't it, only without the whine? Or is it we can say bitching, but not say someone is a bitch?

Or can we only say "bitching" if we mean it as a compliment?

Is the issue...that it's rude to the person we call bitch or because bitch offends all women (except possibly me)?

Well this bitch is bitching about this bitching bitch bitch. It has me confused.

[madokie]

60. These words I use to describe Women

Mother wife daughter sister Theres just something about a LADY

[kywildcat]

64. I have a pin that says

Bitch=
Boys
I'm
Takin'
Charge
Here


What else could it mean?

[Jamastiene]

144. I like it.

I describe myself as a Bitch on ocassion. I'm trying to figure out the need for some contract concerning this word. What's the big deal?

[burythehatchet]

65. Do you ever call a woman an "asshole"?

[Lasher]

66. DU rules are best left to the administrators

I consider myself a guest here, and respect the authority of my hosts. DU administrators have spoken to this issue in their most recent rule changes:

5. The word "bitch" -- We are no longer actively removing the word "bitch" from our discussion forum. However, we have added text explaining the objection some members have to this word and asking members to voluntarily refrain from using it. We still reserve the right to remove it if we think someone is deliberately using the word to cause trouble.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=announcement&id=188

In your attempt to organize a coalition to blackball those who use the word "bitch", you are not showing the proper amount of respect for our hosts' decision on the issue.

Hope you don't put me on your ignore list.

[femrap]

114. I hadn't seen that rule change.....are other words monitored?

Such as the 'N' word? As many agree with John Lennon...Women are the N's of the world.....the last 'ism' that keeps the 'Kick the Dog Syndrome' alive and well.

[VelmaD]

67. Thanks for trying...

I suppose from the responses you've seen just how attached people are to their right to be obnoxious without suffering any consequences.

As for me personally, if we're going back to the old rules...I'm going back to the old way of dealing with things. I will be highjacking every thread I see where that word get used. Wheee fun. :eyes:

[Loonman]

68. It's just fucking words

For fuck's sake.

[Iris]

99. and words have no power?

Tell that to advertisers.


hell. Tell it to the Republicans: "death taxes" "welfare queens" "liberal" "judicial activism"

[femrap]

116. Just words???

Obviously you haven't been told what you look like when you wake up in the morning by a really angry 'B.' And I could go on and on and on with lots of other 'just words,' but my momma said I had to be careful of the 'fragile male ego.'

I am trying to make the point that everyone can be hurt/humiliated/debased by words.....but in a patriarchal system, our culture operates in such a way that derogatory words are used against those who are oppressed.

Do you realize that there is a really fancy word for women-hating? It's misogyny...Now that's a word!!!! I even have a hard time spelling it.

Man hating? Well, that is just impossible....who could ever hate a man...the ruler, the king, the almighty....no fancy word for man-hating. People have made some up....but last time I checked good old Webster....nothing.

Words are powerful weapons....just look at MEDIA today and what it has done to our world.

[gen_x_libertarian]

119. "misandry" is the fancy word for man hating. me - i'm a misanthrope. /nt

[femrap]

128. I checked Webster's and can't find it....guess it's slang.

Misogyny has a long standing relationship w/ Webster, OTOH.

[mondo joe]

140. Try again. Misandry is there. n/t

[Stuckinthebush]

I'll sign that

signed....Stuckinthebush

[buddysmellgood]

69. Asshole is a nice alternative...if you'd like to be more sensitive.

[RazzleDazzle]

87. Actually, what works the very best is

criticizing people for what they've done bad or wrong. You know, for substance. Ever try it? It's much harder, of course, takes more brainpower, but it's far more effective. And absolutely no one finds it offensive for the wrong reasons.

[buddysmellgood]

108. Well, one would think that course had been traveled by the time the

nasty words are vented.

[NashVegas]

70. Well, This Didn't Take Long, Did It?

:boring:

[BiggJawn]

71. Can I use it to describe the Governor of Indiana?

As in "Our Bitch Mitch"?

life's a real bitch with him in power...
Thanks for letting me bitch and moan about this.

I take it we will be resurecting the "Cee-Word" to describe a truly evil woman now?

[theboss]

72. What if it's used in a good way?

Like...man....that Hillary Clinton is one fine-looking bitch.

Also, can I use it on threads about athletes? Like...Jereom Bettis is such a bitch to tackle.

Finally, what if I am actually a black comedian?

[VelmaD]

74. Do you honestly think...

Hillary would consider that a compliment? :eyes:

[theboss]

75. She might

She's apparently a big Earth, Wind and Fire fan.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

98. Context

As with any word, it's all about the context.

After that, intent can usually be inferred.

But, I think all words are acceptable. They're only words, with as much power as we choose to give to them.

And I write for money........... :::: gasp :::::::

[femrap]

117. black female comedienne? nt

[Lilith Velkor]

76. I do not agree on this one

I'm comfortable with a much coarser level of discourse than most people, such as that of the Rude Pundit's. And I'm hesitant to put anyone on ignore.

Anyone is free to ignore me for any reason, of course. It's all good.

[Cats Against Frist]

77. HOLD UP

Dear Benjamin -- you're not trying to tell me that you object to the word "bitch," when you stand by videos of women getting TP (that's EVERY hole), from a work-release crew???

My head just exploded.

:nuke: :hi:

[johnaries]

79. Only if there is an exemption for my ex-wife.

:evilgrin:

[Nikia]

80. Good idea

I think some Duers forget that this is a public message board with all sorts of people on it. Duers differ in religion, ethnicity, race, geography, socioeconomic background, sexual orientation, and gender. Most of us know very few people on this board in person. We should all be sensitive about using words that are negative and used to describe any group. Just because someone might know many people of that group who are not offended by a particuliar word doesn't mean that others aren't offended. While I understand arguements against censorship, I am truly offended by the word "bitch" and know that several other DU women are also. Although I cannot censor people who use that word on DU, I can choose not to associate with them by putting them on ignore.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

81. What a scary notion

Self-censorship.

Why on earth would anyone agree to this? It's a matter of choice. People who take offense at someone's use of any word should take it up with them.

Imposing bans on speech is not a good thing, in my opinion. Free speech has to be free, or there can be no honest and open exchange of ideas. If you don't like how someone expresses himself, I'd say that would be a matter of personal taste.

It would be terrible if someone would decide not to post something here because of fear that they might be breaking some sort of rule.

Personal taste should not be translated to the greater body.

If you don't like certain words, don't use them.

[RazzleDazzle]

88. So that means you also object to self-censorship of words like

kike, fag, coon, jap, raghead, haji, etc.? (And this is the 3rd time this question has been asked in this thread.)

Imposing bans on speech is not a good thing, in my opinion. Free speech has to be free, or there can be no honest and open exchange of ideas. If you don't like how someone expresses himself, I'd say that would be a matter of personal taste.

It would be terrible if someone would decide not to post something here because of fear that they might be breaking some sort of rule.

All of that is just rationalization. Sounds noble, means nothing, matters even less.

You can be plenty open and honest and free in your speech without resorting to racial or sexual epithets. Plenty.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

91. The issue I was addressing ......

..... was not "self-censorship." Hell, we censor ourselves all day every day. That's normal.

What I was addressing was the original poster's idea that some sort of pact be made that the signatories to the pact would vow not to use a specific word.

You can call my opinion "rationalization," and then say it "(s)ounds noble, means nothing, matters even less." Those words, strung together as they are, are far more offensive, to my thinking, than "bitch" or "kike" or any other epithet one might imagine, simply because you chose to try to diminish and belittle my personal opinions.

It's a matter of personal choice, as I said, and if others don't like the specific words you choose, you have avenues to go down to address your issues. But, what you did, in your response to me, that's something beyond the pale - people lashing out at someone who has an opinion different from theirs.

Some might even call you a bitch for that kind of response, but I wouldn't. Not me. Nope. Not ever. Not gonna happen. No way.

[RazzleDazzle]

94. Calling your argument a rationalization is hardly lashing out at you

It's a characterization of your argument, not of you. I have some opinions about you based on what you've written, but I've not voiced them and don't plan to. Some people over-identify with their own words, and feel personally attacked when their ideas or arguments are merely disagreed with, or challenged and confronted. If I can't disagree with your words and argument without you claiming to be "lashed out at," then you are trying to restrict me to only agreeing with you, which would make for a pretty banal discussion forum.

You can call my opinion "rationalization," and then say it "(s)ounds noble, means nothing, matters even less." Those words, strung together as they are, are far more offensive, to my thinking, than "bitch" or "kike" or any other epithet one might imagine, simply because you chose to try to diminish and belittle my personal opinions.

Most people feel worse being attacked for characteristics they were born with than being challenged on their personal opinions, which is why there are societal prohibitions against using certain words "in polite company." Obviously, YMMV.

But you side-stepped my question, and not all that adequately:

"The issue I was addressing ......
..... was not "self-censorship." Hell, we censor ourselves all day every day. That's normal."

You can imagine my confusion since these are your opening words in your previous post:

81. What a scary notion
Self-censorship.

Why on earth would anyone agree to this? It's a matter of choice. People who take offense at someone's use of any word should take it up with them.

Again I'll ask you whether or not you feel similarly about the other words typically disallowed in polite company because they are racist or otherwise bigoted?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

95. Now, that's funny

You question my objections to your attempt to diminish my opinion, and then accuse me of somehow "trying to restrict you" to something.

I would never try to restrict you, simply because my whole thrust is that no one, no word, should be restricted.

Nothing should be forbidden. That's my stance.

We have different opinions.

In my world, all words are allowed.

That simple.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. And -----

how rude of me to have overlooked this:

Welcome to DU!

[femrap]

118. What about the term 'jew boy?' nt

[OldLeftieLawyer]

131. What about it?

I said, in my world, no words are forbidden. Does "jew boy" have some special significance for you? If so, feel free to elaborate. My Jewish mother would be interested in your story, I'm certain.

If others don't see it that way, I understand that. It's a matter of personal choice, just like what a woman decides to do with her pregnancy.

Choice.

[femrap]

135. I asked about jew boy....wanted to know the reaction....on

another board, a person was banned for using it.

Just words, right???

[OldLeftieLawyer]

136. Right

You got it.

The words have as much power as we choose to give them.

Choice. It's always ours choice.

[RazzleDazzle]

141. I'm sorry, that's just

simplistic rightwing claptrap -- and yes, I'm definitely intending to denigrate your opinion, because it frankly stinks.

The words have as much power as we choose to give them.

Yeah, so feel free to think nigger has no evil meaning whatsoever and no power while the whole rest of the world knows better, especially the people who are its targets.

The whole point is precisely that: these words have already been given the power to harm, and they DO harm, on a daily basis. Your little bit of wishful thinking about some simplistic version (or vision) of freedom of speech will do nothing to change that. YOU CANNOT RECLAIM THIS WORD OR ANY OTHER, not even if you have an army of likeminded idealists to aid and assist.

Speaking of minds: You can create or insist on your own definitions and connotations, but you will be on the outside of the entire society looking in, and some folks might find you worthy of being in confinement for mental health issues if you insist on doing very much of it.

I hate to quote Limbaugh, but sometimes, damn! it's just the right thing to do: Words mean something.

[Jamastiene]

145. I agree with you on this one.

Censorship is censorship. Either way you slice it, it's wrong.

[MrSlayer]

82. Not I.

I reserve the right to call a spade a spade. I never put anyone on ignore and I hate censorship.

Besides didn't we have this argument a year or so ago?

[femrap]

121. That picture of Wesley reminds me of W....don't you

have one where he isn't doing the 'W Sneer?'

[SmokingJacket]

83. I'm a woman, and I like the word.

It's very specific; it describes a person in a way than no other word does.

I also adore using the word "prick." In Britain "prat" works well, but isn't so good here.

Please, no censorship, self-imposed or otherwise.

Put me on ignore if you must... but Ben, after I gave you floaty hearts???

[OldLeftieLawyer]

92. There are times

when all I can say to my husband is "You big bitch."

It's usually when he's done something so utterly nuts and wonderful, no other phrase works. I picked it up from my cousin's wife, who grew up in Amish country, although she's not Amish.

It just breaks me up when said to a man.

[Zynx]

101. I'm a little torn on this.

I think that the way most people use the word is derogatory towards women, but I think it has its place as a descriptor of certain types of activity that both men and women engage in. For instance, I call Sean Hannity a "bitch" just like a call Barbara Bush a "bitch" because they are both cold, unfeeling, arrogant, nasty little punks.

[RazzleDazzle]

89. Obviously,

I approve. And applaud.

And after some of the anti-woman nastiness I've seen here the last couple of days, I'm stunned by your suggestion but pleasantly so.

Salud!

[Pachamama]

93. When someone refers to me as a "bitch" in an argument, is when I know I'm

winning.... :hi:

That's why I don't care when I'm referred to being a bitch...it becomes a badge of honor....

[StopTheMorans]

100. well, fist, i think it would do to have an internal discussion on the

merits of various usages of the word.

[DrunkenMaster]

102. Do I have your permission

to use other "obscene" words? How about the phrase "fuck censorship"? or "I shit on political correctness" or when I want to call someone (perhaps someone who wants to control dialogue and debate)an "asshole"?

Just curious.

[femrap]

122. Everyone has an asshole....just some are uglier than

others. Get it?

[NorthernSpy]

105. sorry, no deal!

I'm a woman, and I don't feel oppressed by the word "bitch". Those delicate blossoms who do -- well, if it would make them happy to put me and most of world on ignore to honor their sensibilities, then they should do that. By all means.

[StopTheMorans]

106. SNAP!

[Maat]

107. I won't be using it (n/t).

But I wasn't using it before.

[gen_x_libertarian]

115. i think you'll have an uphill battle with this one - it's a popular word.

"bitch" along with all of it's variants ("biatch", "ho", "skank", etc) are popular slang words with both post-Boomer generations (X and Y) due to the rise of rap music and hip hop culture. We - niggas and ho's - grew up hearing and using these words - not in a derogatory way - but in an affectionate, trendy way. So whenever these discussions come up, it's difficult for us to see things the way the Boomers and older generations see it. It's not that we reject political correctness or social sensitivity - rather it is that the words we view to be sensitive/off limits are different. This difference in cultural rules is different among all generations.

[femrap]

124. The only reason X and Y's use those terms to refer to

women is because the rich, white, powerful males who run Corporate America (and that includes the music industry) said it was OK for you to go shit on your mother, your sister, your wife, your daugher, and your girlfriend.

So everytime you use those words, just remember how proud the rich white man is of you....got that?

Wake up....! The white boys gave the rappers some $...said go ahead and debase your mothers. And you did.

Not smart. You just gave your power to the rich white corporate boys.

[ObaMania]

123. Nah..

.. IMO, the little yellow star next to my name gives me permission to say what I want here.

I rarely say (or write) the word, but if I get the urge, I would like to exercise my right.

[DefenseLawyer]

126. Yes! What a great idea

And we should single everyone who uses words we don't like by making them wear specific pieces of flair which identify their particular offending word. I guess it shouldn't surprise me to yet again see such a large minority of my fellow travelers here eager to ban something. I promise you that words cannot hurt you. Even ignorant hateful worthless words cannot hurt you. If someone is offensive to your sensibilities, you can ignore them. If they hurt your feelings, you should do what my mother always said- consider the source. You don't beat a bad idea or an offensive point of view by banning it. Beat it fair and square right out in the open view of the forum. If someone has resorted to namecalling, it probably means you have already won.

[mongo]

127. Well said

And the fact is that some people here who rail against language can be condesending, demeaning, hurtfull, etc - to fellow DU'ers and whole groups of people at times.

But as long as we don't say that baaaad word, things are just rosey on
DU.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

134. Well said

Very well said.

:applause:

[RazzleDazzle]

142. So it's a lawyer thing?

I knew a feminist lawyer once who said that law school screwed her up royally. I got her aside and asked what she meant and she replied that it made her see things differently, changed her whole worldview, and what was implied by her tone was that the change wasn't for the better.

I think I begin to understand.

Here's something you may find useful sometime in your life. What may be true or agreeable or laudable or preferrable or admirable in legal circles or even among legal minds is NOT necessarily what is good and proper and agreeable or laudable or admirable, etc. for the rest of society.

And of course all the anti-woman bigots will appreciate this line of thinking as well.

[Ariana Celeste]

146. Hardly a lawyer thing.

I'm a woman. A highschool dropout. A housewife.

The word "bitch" doesn't offend me. I've always laughed when people have resorted to that crap. But then again, I was raised not to take words so seriously and I was raised that men and women are equal. So gender specific insults roll off my back. And I don't know anyone who is offended by it. Maybe it's just my social circle.

[mondo joe]

138. Beautiful. Thank you. n/t

[-..__...]

129. "I'm Rick James..."

O8)

[Dances with Cats]

130. I object

under my 1st Ammendement rights. Sorry to be such a sonofabitch, but....

[McCamy Taylor]

132. Is the verb ok?

[NNadir]

133. I want to bitch about this.

Nah, never mind. I don't have a dog.

[lonestarnot]

139. I use the word as non-gender based description depicting more than

an annoyance, so no not in.

[wildflower]

143. Ben, I have noticed more than one post from you...

in defense of women's rights lately. And I just want to say thank you. Personally, that word feels like a punch in the stomach to me.

wildflower

[thinkingwoman]

147. I propose we value free speech

I've had it up to here with political correctness. Seriously.

This bitch thinks everybody needs to get thicker skin.

thinkingwoman

[livvy]

148. I have not ever used it here, because I know some are...

sensitive to it. Personally, I don't have a problem with the word. It makes me think of a of a person who can be a bit of a problem to work with or be around. In fact, there have been times that had I known that some considered me a bitch, I might feel like I've been successful in meeting my goals. I don't see it as offensive, but I understand that to others it is important. I'm not real word sensitive in general. They are only words after all. However, to answer your question, I'd be happy to refrain from using the term here, if it would make others more comfortable.

[oregonindy]

149. I got bigger and better things to worry about then sematics