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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:22 PM
Original message
Every time you gain a dime it should be income....
....and all income should be taxed once at the same (indexed) rate.Wages (if legally included),capital gains, and dividends.Every bit of income allows the recipient to spend or save them in the manner they decide.Why on earth we allow wages to be targeted is beyond me other than looking at the income of our senators and representatives- oh yeah- that would explain it,right???
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. could you clerify the question?
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's not a question..
Just saying that all "income", wages, capital gains, etc. should ALL be taxed. Not just place the burden upon the wage earners as is the current scenario.
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. it is all taxed, I believe
Dividend and Cap Gains are at a different rate, yes? and wage income is on a progressive rate scale bt is any income tax free? I believe even lottery income is taxable.

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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. On a percentage basis
the less you make, the more you pay.
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Isn't that the other way around
Rate of taxation increase. guess: 0-10K - no taxation, 10-25K - 20% and so on.....

I could google for the real rates

Consumption taxes and sales taxes would have some effect, I guess.

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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. SS/Med tax are capped at 60K, sales taxes are only on what you spend.
So, those that make mid-income or lower wages do end up paying more. And, the wage increases are more of an exponential growth on the curve, not linear. So, some small end CEO making 100 million, even taxed at 99% rate would have more disposable income at the end than most every wage "working class" citizen of this nation.

I say "Tax the shit out of the rich!"
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. SS/Med tax are capped at about $90,000 this year .
It is an indexed scale, which increases every year.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. No - the all tax rate for lowest 20% and highest 20% is about equal -
the scaling is the 20 to 40% being less than the 40 to 60 which is lower than the 60 to 80%.

The game is to pretend income tax does not include tax on wage income under the payroll tax.

Even these numbers - put out by the IRS - do not tell the whole tale which is hidden by trust work, offshore games, and interest conversion to non-taxed capital gains.
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brmdp3123 Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I don't think so.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Shouldn't that be the other way around?
The more you make, the more you pay? I'd gladly pay more in taxes if it meant I were making more. No complaints from me on that score.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. It is not all taxed.-The Estate tax is a feeble attempt to capture untaxed
capital gain and interest, but it fails unless you find trust and off-shore non-taxation to be "zero tax rate" taxation - just a different "rate".

Indeed "GREAT" tax planning has had folks selling deductions cross border that they could not use because their tax was near zero already.

The new savings rules - if enacted - will allow below 4% rate taxation of dividends/cap gain income mutual funds (See your New York Broker for details).

Even the rich that avoid tax planning will be unable to pay a rate higher than 8.25% on capital gains under the new Bush tax reform ideas.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The trickier problem...

...Is identifying what qualifies as a "loss." :-)

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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. How Can be Indexed If It's Taxed at Once?
You need to do a tax return to come up with your yearly income. A big paycheck might be offset by big deductions. It might not be representative of the entire year -- for example, if you're unemployed for 11 months. Or your income might be a lot higher than your paycheck would suggest due to having two jobs, a working spouse, social security, or rental or investment income.

Establishing tax brackets and deductions is not that hard. What IS hard is defining income. Any definition will immediately be tested by folks trying to legally minimize their taxes. Any there are very creative people out there.

In general, though, I agree that there is a case to be made for taxing other income at the same rate as wages.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here's one of my favorite charts ...
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. What about municipal bond dividends
They're tax free.

Do you want to make them taxable?

That would drive up the cost to school districts trying to borrow money. That's probably not the best idea.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. Nah, lets not tax wages at all
There've been several movements out there, with some success, who desire to completely untax income and property (ie the various sales tax movements).

Fuck Them.

Let's completely untax wages, all the way down the chain.

First, let's look at the payroll tax. I'ts 15.3% total on the first $90K or so. It only applies to wages. Most families pay more to this than they do the income tax. It raises the price of labor - which means, all else being equal, producers (employers) would rather substitute capital for labor (automation), cheap labor for expensive labor (skilled v. unskilled, domestic v. foreign), or not produce at all (going out of business).

Then we look at the income tax, the lower brackets act as a tax on wages: as we find other sorts of tax revenue, lets keep the top rate at 33% or so, and steadily increase the personal exemption, so that one day we have an income tax of 33% on income over $250,000.

So, if we eliminate the payroll tax, and increase the personal exemption, labor will become 20-30% cheaper in the US. Cutting the rate by 25% means that at least 5-7% more people are employed right? Something like that anyway. That pretty much takes care of unemployment, which reduces the amount we have to spend on welfare, medicare, public safety, etc. etc. Now, with near zero unemployment, employers have to recruit employees, rather than employees competing for jobs. Wages and working conditions go up. They go up nearly as much as the wage taxes go down.

So, what can we tax then, if not the wages of our working population? Investment? It's not quite that simple. Some of that investment is worthwhile: the guy who lends you the money to buy the shop, or the machine, or the tractor, or the network; that's good investment. We don't want to discourage that - plus, if you'll note, when you buy a machine, that's evidence of increased demand for machines - which means that down the chain somewhere, a guy gets hired to mine the ore for that machine, refine the ore for that machine, move those raw materials to a factory, work in that factory, deliver that machine to the dealer, sell that machine, and service that machine. Plus all the guys needed to feed, clothe, house, and entertain the first set of guys.

What about taxing wealth? That's got the same pitfalls as taxing the capital in the above paragraph. If i buy a 4,000 s.f. house, a bunch of people get employment in the process of building that house. Same with fancy cars, gourmet foods, and expensive toys.

What's left? Plenty. Mostly, land. If I buy $1,000,000 worth of land, that doesn't signal some corporation to crank the production of land, does it? No one down the chain is employed creating it. All it does is fatten the pockets of the last guy to own it, so on and so forth, past the Europeans killing the natives for it, back till the first guy bashed the second guy to show up. So taxing land doesn't reduce the production of it. Heck, most of that $1,000,000 value is due to public spending on roads, transit, police, fire, and schools.

Does taxing land make buying land more expensive? No. Just the opposite, really. First, the guy selling it today gets exactly what people think it is worth, and can afford: what the market will bear. Putting a tax on it doesn't improve people's ability to afford it, it doesn't increase what the market will bear, so it doesn't increase the price. In fact, because the ownership of that land bears a greater cost, through the increased taxes, people will calculate that it is in fact, worth less than it was before. They'll capitalize the future tax payments and subtract that from the present value. And, because land has a higher carrying cost, fewer 'investors' will see the profit from merely holding land (or barely covering land with some taxpaying enterprise like a parking lot, or an urban 'taxpayer'). These guys will be forced to build, or sell to someone who will build, at least in urban areas. So more lots become available, reducing purchase prices in the local area.

What about aunt sally, on retirement, who owns her home outright, but is on fixed income? Well, first, the same thing that always happens when property taxes go up - they exempt seniors. Second, all the aunt sallies and the brother jimmies and the joe sixpacks of the country own only a small fraction of the land values. Most of the real valuable land is owned by corporations, which are in turn owned by a relatively few wealthy people. In other words, the distribution of land wealth is even more skewed than the distribution of income. A property tax on land wealth is inherently a progressive tax. it could be made more so by exempting a small amount per household - though this really is only a tax on renters.

What else besides land? Broadcast rights, Water rights, Timber rights, oil righs, mineral rights, utility monopoly rights, limited competition licenses (taxi, fishing, etc.), de facto pollution rights, and even patents.

How much can this generate? Hard to say. At full collection - and property taxes generally fall to the states, maybe 4-5 Trillion. However, untaxing labor and productive investment would increase land values - probably for another 3-4 trillion. Full collection isn't likely, or even warranted off the bat - it would be disruptive to say the least. But incrementally, it could begin to offset other, more harmful taxes.

What's the first step? Get your local or state government to change your property tax, such that the rate on land is higher than the rate on buildings. Generally, a good first step is changing the rate such that 50% of the revenue comes from land values, instead of the 20-40% that most places collect. Generally, a 1% property tax would change to a 1.67% tax on land values, and a 0.7% tax on building values. Most taxing athorities already assess these values separately.

What's this do? First, it generally reduces the tax on 70% of homeowners. It encourages absentee landlords to improve their properties, or to sell them, increasing homeownership. Most of the shifted revenue falls on the owners of valuable commercial properties, corner lots on the main road and the like. Most of these property owners then lease the land to businesses. Economists state that the increase in land taxes cannot effectively be passed on to the tenant - for the same reasons that they don't increase land prices.

Then what? Try and shift a bit more of the property tax, and then start reducing other taxes and shifting their revenues to the land-only property tax. Make improvements to the community: better schools, transit, etc. - they raise the property values. Once the land tax is high enough, they more than pay for themselves.
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drb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. How does that work when your retired mother's house....
...goes up $50,000 in value in a year?
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. #1 See paragraph 11
plus, if a significant portion of the land value is taxed, say 5% or more, speculative values are severely suppressed.

Most places have clauses for reducing the burden of taxation on retired persons. Furthermore, most places have a constant-revenue type of property tax: it's not merely set at 1.5% and left there, its set to raise the the same amount as was raised last year. If everyone's house goes up by the same percentage, everyone pays the same as they did last year. If this is the case, more than likely, under a tax shift off of buildings and onto land, your mother would probably pay less in taxes, as most homeowners benefit under such a shift. If she is one of the few who don't, more than likely she has a large lot and a small house - perhaps she could sell a portion of her lot so that someone else can have someplace to live, simultaneously reducing her tax burden while gaining a chunk of cash.

Alternatively, what about all the people who can't find jobs, because of taxes. Or can't buy a house, or even rent one?

I'm not suggesting they throw your mother on the street - I think some level of accomodation should be made for her and for those like her.

On the other hand, if you are retired and living in a half million dollar house that you own, and can't afford to pay the taxes on it, maybe it's time to sell and move someplace cheaper.

I'm not a fan of first come first served - and neither is any progressive who dislikes the disproportionate concentration of wealth in this country and the world.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. it already is, unless you are rich enough to afford offshore
accounts- or to pay people to hide your money and make you 'legally' in name only- less accountable.

When the rich are the ones to make the 'rules' you can be sure that it won't be them that get screwed- and rich to me is a pretty low bar.

When our family was 'rich' our income for a family of 4 in 1994 was $32,000 gross.

We've been reduced to less than a quarter of that most years-
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