What would happen if Kerry said 'it': Presidential Election 2004 was

[IndyOp]

Stolen from the American People and I will take whatever actions are necessary to see to it that the state and federal election laws already on the books will be enforced. Laws were broken in the election - and that cannot be allowed to go unpunished.

If, if, if he believes the election was stolen, it would be hard - very, very hard for him to say so when many will ridicule him.

Virtually all dysfunctional families organize their lives around pretending problems don't exist. Massive amounts of personal energy is put into hiding, deflecting, lying, and remembering lies already told. Everyone in the family does this because they are afraid -- if we speak it aloud the family will fall apart, I'll be all alone. No one will believe me. You know what often happens when 'it' is finally spoken aloud? The world doesn't end. Things change. Sometimes the change is scary and painful. The individuals in the family come out stronger because once the truth is spoken aloud the problem can be confronted.

Everyone who is thinking right now - John Kerry CAN'T say it aloud - please pause from your political strategy thought process - and ask yourself why not? Really, why not? If - if - if he believes it why not say it?

Because people will be upset? People are upset now - more and more people are living in dire situations.

Because people will call Kerry names? He has already been swift-boated - what else could they do?

Because people will marginalize Kerry? Those who have already marginalized him, will continue to do so.

I am *not* disrespecting the Senators' many, many contributions.

While he would have to introduce the issue in terms of defending the Americans whose votes were stolen, I believe that he should do this because, in an important way, the people around Kerry are stuck until he stands up for himself. If Kerry seems to accept the situation, others won't take a stand. If he is not for 'himself' - who will be for him?

He should speak out, IMO, because he will be a lightening rod, he will shock his colleagues into looking at what really happened when they desperately don't want to look. He will have supporters - in the House (Conyers, Kucinich, CBC) and in the Senate (Boxer, Kennedy). He won't be alone.

Peace.

[texpatriot2004]

1. Great post. He won't be alone & he has data on his side. I think

the "sour grapes" screamers would not have much of a case because he conceded and it's a year later and he has the data, the facts.

Why is he the wrong person to bring this issue up? I disagree. Immediately after the election...true. Now, not so much.

I think he is uniquely qualified to face this issue head on and would win many, many supporters by doing so.

[stray cat]

15. Only if the facts are sufficient to prosecute.

I haven't seen that we have data that could be used to hold up a prosecution of anyone person or group. We have to have names and a conspiracy not what could appear to be independent acts.

[texpatriot2004]

17. I disagree. n.t

[IndyOp]

18. So, IF he believes the election was stolen - has names -

then he should step up and say it?

Also - independent actors can be indicted and prosecuted. Why does it have to be a conspiracy?

[blm]

34. Winer says it all right here to Robert Parry....

Winer, who is now a private attorney with a specialty in information security, said it’s conceivable that electronic balloting was hacked in Election 2004 but that – without a credible witness confessing – there is little hope to prove it.

“There are systems for one-time use that erase themselves afterwards,” Winer said. “You’d have to have a confession and anyone who would confess would look psychotic.”
>>>>>

The positive heare is that they KNOW about it now and can prepare for the future. Winer is good as gold...he is the guy who worked side by side with Kerry to uncover IranContra and BCCI. He KNOWS how to investigate and Parry now describes his work as information security.

People should be thrilled about the developments. They are just being careful.

There are 3 cases Kerry is involved with in Ohio and any intemperate talk from him can damage the cases.

[mod mom]

78. All he has to do is check with Conyers + the House Judiciary Dems Legal

Staff.

[KittyWampus]

67. LOL, 'sour grapes screamers wouldn't have much of a case' LOL

just out of curiosity... WHOSE CASE DO YOU THINK THE MEDIAWHORES WOULD FEATURE FAVORABLY? Sorry for 'screaming' but this is so obvious a point I can't believe it needs to be brought up.

Oh, and it'd require some real good luck getting the "data" a fair hearing. Americans just LOVE data :sarcasm:

Kerry might have a front and center role to play in dealing with electronic voting. But coming out and saying "I wuz robbed" ain't it.

Many DU'ers seem largely incapable of dealing with that nuance. Perhaps Kerry SHOULD say something, but "the election was stolen from me" would be counter productive and fruitless.

[texpatriot2004]

2. He has much to gain by doing so. nm

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

3. What would happen would be seismic

Because, finally, we'd have to get MSM coverage. The GAO report HAS to bust into the open. We HAVE to have the discussion about our crappy, insecure voting procedures. Now that the GAO has issued that report, EVERY election is subject to a reasonable belief that it may or may not be valid.

I keep thinking that if Kerry's aren't big enough, maybe John Edward's are.

[KittyWampus]

71. Media Coverage. If Kerry Said "I Wuz Robbed" He'd Be Pilloried Endlessly

You really think the Media would say Hey! Kerry's got a great point and even some lovely DATA?

Or you think they'd find a photoshop of Kerry with a tinfoil hat and laugh? Then, promptly forget the issue?

It's important to get this Issue addressed, and Kerry might have a role to play... but it'd have to be done with a lot more planning and strategy then either DU'ers or elected Democrats seem capable of producing.

For the record, I am not sure how to get the Issue traction. Kudos to the DU'ers who did have the idea of a Boston Tea Party with electronic voting equipement. Though why we'd expect the Media to put it on the air, I'm not sure. Maybe getting local attention is more important? Dealing with this district by district?

[pacalo]

4. I do believe that there would be overwhelming support for Kerry

if he did say it publically. The problem is, we don't know what's going on in the background that prevents him from doing so. Take Mark Miller's report about Kerry's "fight" with an "angry" Dodd when Kerry approached him about the election. Why was Dodd angry?

[Quakerfriend]

7. You are right about not being certain about what's going on

in the background.

However, how much more can we afford to lose, in this country??

WE THE PEOPLE would be out in the streets cheering him on!!

[pacalo]

10. I do agree, Q! I can imagine the support he'd get.

One glaring fact that Kerry has on his side is the fact that the so-called "winner" of the election is very unpopular, despite having been "re-elected" only 10 months ago! In fact, his approval ratings have been consistently going down since the election.

I pray for a Democratic majority in Congress after the '06 elections. Imo, it's the only chance we'll have for getting election reform.

[MissWaverly]

23. I don't understand the loyalty for Bush

He is a usurper, who has stolen 2 elections, started a pre-emptive
war, etc. I don't understand the intense need by both Dems and Repugs to kow tow to this man and his gang of thieves, is it because
it is so bad, that no one wants the dems to be in the hot seat of the
oval office right now to have to deal with these stinking piles of
crap that he has built up during 5 years.

[...of J.Temperance]

53. It's not loyalty, in my opinion it's FEAR, because they're PSYCHO

Bush Inc. are psycho's, and I do believe that people are terrified of them. That if someone speaks up or if someone crosses them, that Bush Inc. will do something to that person and/or their family.

Examples: Convenient plane crashes and the Anthrax letters.

I STRONGLY believe that the Anthrax letters, those threats were done by Bush Inc. to threaten Democratic Senator's to NOT even question the "official" 911 Government excuse.

On Edit: Bush Inc. threatens the so-called moderate Republican's too. I bet Lincoln Chaffee has been threatened ditto Susan Collins and I know that Olympia Snowe has been threatened.

I remember some article from last year, about how the so-called moderate Republican's were not going to vote yes on some extreme Bush Inc. bill and Junior invited them to the WH to "talk" to them. And the article said that Olympia Snowe left that WH meeting in tears and shaken. Yes, because Junior probably personally threatened her with death or something similar.

You ONLY have to LOOK at Junior's FACE to see WHAT this fucker IS. He's a psychotic THUG, he's got the heart and the INSTINCTS of a serial killer and he's surrounded by yes men who stoke this darkness that's within him.

The freak is a menace to normal society...he needs to be dealt with and pronto.

[MissWaverly]

55. US will not tolerate paying for Halliburton's corruption

US Should repay millions to Iraq, a UN Audit Finds: Inflated Costs are seen. Halliburton defends work by subsidiary-up to $208 million cited. story by James Glanz (Saturday NY Times/front page)

An auditing board sponsored by the United Nations recommended Friday that the United States repay as much as $208 million to the Iraqi government for contracting work in 2003 and 2004 assigned to Kellogg, Brown & Root. the Halliburton subsidiary. The work was paid for with Iraqi oil proceeds, but the board said it was either carried out at inflated prices or done poorly. The board did not. however, give examples of the poor work.

[...of J.Temperance]

58. Whilst I

Thank you for posting that about Halliburton. I must add, that it's a most curious choice of response from you in responding to my above response to your comments from yesterday.

[MissWaverly]

59. I am saying that people will fight for their wallets

George W. Bush is the master of fear, he has used it to control the
people and the congress. Your summation is correct, but the American
people do not like getting ripped off and if they feel that they have
been conned, they will rise up. Yes, I do think that he is a bully,
yes, I think that he is able to cow the members of Congress into
passive submission of some of the most ludicrous and bone headed decisions ever made since the creation of our country, the catered war and continuous tax breaks for the wealthy elite while gutting
the infrastructure of our government to name just 2. The break will come not from Senator X who can be intimidated but from the
American people standing up and sreaming. It is like the challenge
to the 2004 results in Congress; they did not want to do it, but the American people demanded it.

[...of J.Temperance]

60. Of course, that's 100% correct

I think I misinterpreted you earlier.

[MissWaverly]

61. Thanks, the only way to beat a bully is strength in numbers

[IndyOp]

12. Was Dodd 'angry'? I just tried to get to MCM's blogspot to

check the quote and can't get on. My take was that Kerry approached Dodd and Dodd didn't want to hear it -- he was frustrated with Kerry bringing it up. If so, Dodd's reaction seems to be the same as that of many Dems: It is bad form to bring this up. It won't help to live in the past, look to the future. It will hurt your chances to be the candidate for 2008...

I completely agree that we don't know what's going on in the background that prevents him from doing so/causes him to think that there is a wiser strategy to pursue. If there is something wiser that he is doing (but can't reveal right now) then that is just tough luck for me - I'll have to wait.

If he isn't engaged in a full-court press behind the scenes, then, IMHO, he ought to bust out and let us/others take the ball and run!

We are running out of time to get the situation in line for 2006.

[pacalo]

19. Here's the quote...

He says he argues with his democratic colleagues on the hill. He said he had a fight with Christopher Dodd because he said there's questions about the voting machines and Dodd was angry."

link

My patience has worn thin, too, but I do believe in Kerry. I have faith in his judgement.

[IndyOp]

20. Thanks. I did not doubt you, just could not remember and

wanted to see it again.

I don't have long enough experience with Kerry to have faith in his judgement.

I hope you are right.

[pacalo]

21. YW, IndyOp.

[...of J.Temperance]

5. I'm afraid that if Senator Kerry said that the 2004 election was stolen

The mediawhores would be on 24/7 calling him a conspiracy theorist and he'd get crucified.

He would have to produce hard, concrete evidence proving that Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada were stolen.

I've always believed that those states WERE stolen, I saw with my own eyes the late afternoon exit polls and Senator Kerry was way ahead. But he'd have to produce firm evidence...or else he'd be portrayed as being crazy and paranoid or something.

[seafey]

8. not to mention opportunistic

I could see people saying he's just taking advantage of this low-point in Bush's credibility/popularity. THen it would backfire and people would remember how Kerry was pro-war also, and they'd be in love with Bush again.

[IndyOp]

9. He'd be called a conspiracy theorist -- undoubtedly.

Is that enough reason why he should not do it? He's been called a conspiracy theorist before. The GOP has developed buzzwords that they use to scare Dems into silence - "If you question us we'll call you unpatriotic" "If you confront us we'll call you conspiracy theorists."

'He'd get crucified' - I am guessing you don't mean this literally. If you want to be more specific that's fine, otherwise, I'm not too worried. I would suggest that he stay off of private planes and jets!

[...of J.Temperance]

32. Well

Yes. I have to agree with Sandnsea, we need a Diebold voting machine (if possible an Ohio one) and we need to smash it open, to back up what WE and Senator Kerry ALREADY know.

Senator Kerry can't just call a press conference and announce "I won the election and the Bush bastard stole it off me, just like he stole the 2000 election off Vice-President Gore" Remember that the mediawhores are NOT on our side, they're on the Repukes side and they'd SLIT YOUR THROAT for the Bush bastard.

I'm sorry, I know and understand that this isn't something that a lot of people want to hear, but to me and other people it makes sense:

Senator Kerry would have to produce concrete evidence, and accompany that with a Diebold machine from Ohio...because the mediawhores would DEMAND that he do this, IF he didn't and he just said "I won and it was stolen off me", that'd be IT. The pigs would slice and dice him and by the time they'd finished with him, a great majority of the nation would never take him seriously ever again.

No, I don't mean they'd LITERALLY crucify Senator Kerry...but I remember election night last November. It was about 4am and Senator Edwards came out onto a stage with all his guns a-blazing, saying that we were going to keep on keeping on and we were going to keep fighting and nobody was conceeding defeat and that the campaign had dispatched thousands of lawyers to OHIO...then just HOURS later Senator Kerry appeared and threw the towel in, and his voice cracked up and you could see he was very upset and was on the verge of crying.

I was convinced then and I'll ALWAYS be convinced that Senator Kerry WAS threatened in-between Senator Edwards coming out raging and Senator Kerry throwing the towel in. The threat could have been many things, but knowing the Bush bastard he probably threatened to harm Senator Kerry's daughter's or Senator Edwards' young children.

So, whilst not a literal crucifixion, I could envisage a scenario whereby Senator Kerry had a Wellstone-type accident.

[IndyOp]

54. While I can imagine a Wellstone-type accident,

I don't suspect that Kerry's concession was due to having gotten a direct threat on his life. Maybe... I just didn't see/feel it that way.

I think your rhetoric 'crucify' / 'slice and dice' is hotter than it needs to be -- look at what the members of the Congressional Black Caucus and Kucinich and Sanders have lived with for decades -- ridicule; marginalization; quite probably threats of a variety of types -- they march on.

I am not so much worried about Kerry's future credibility with the American people -- I am worried about him doing the right thing -- I am worried that if we wait too long the consequences will be just that more dire.

I just want people to consider the idea that Kerry should be speaking more boldly about laws broken in the last election and making sure that those who break laws are punished --

:shrug:

[mod mom]

81. I am from Ohio. I personally know the attorneys who contested the

election. they believe the evidence is there. I have also heard from members of the House Judiciary Legal Staff that the evidence is there. WE NEED SUBPOENA POWER! Yesterday at a Free Press 1 year anniversary event, it was noted that NOT ONE SINGLE REPUBLICAN HAS GONE UNDER OATH TO SAY THE ELECTION WASN'T STOLEN!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. Kerry would also cement a place in history as being the person

who dislodged an illegitimate regime and saved our country. Our new street chant -

GAO! GAO! Diebold has got to go!

[Marnieworld]

11. It's a matter of courage

He clearly has shown great courage in the past. It remains to be seen if he'll show it in this regard.

Additionally I disagree with your assessment about what happens when one speaks the truth. I come from a dysfunctional family and I am well aware of the culture of lies within it. I was strong enough to break from those lies yet I did not experience the happy catharis you described, but actually "if we speak it aloud the family will fall apart, I'll be all alone." Actually I am all alone (at least from my family "of origin" that is)and the family did fall apart. This was very painful and unfortunate yet I do not regret my choice. Sometimes you have to be brave and suffer whatever consequence in order to speak and live in truth. There is no peace in living a lie and perhaps Kerry will find the courage within him to stand up once and for all, for himself and for all of us. Let's keep hoping.

Peace :hi:

[IndyOp]

14. Yeah, I was trying not to make the dysfunctional family analogy

seem like everyone would be happy after facing the truth, but didn't want to go so far into the 'reality' of that analogy that I'd lose track of Kerry.

"There is no peace in living a lie" -- that is what I should have said.

:hi:

[ClayZ]

24. The Great American Intervention! LOL

Complete with Pink Elephants with "ELECTION FRAUD" painted on their sides.

[stray cat]

13. What a gift to Bush and the repubs

Kerry would become the center of attention as a sore loser. It would be a great diversion for the republicans and Bush to get the media demonizing Kerry and democrats as an impotent group of wimps who whine instead of coming up with substantive policies. In the meantime, the media would not be talking about Iraq, Scooter Libby, and Bush's ethics and credibility problems or anti-torture legislation.

[IndyOp]

16. A great diversion - maybe for a while - until the next WH indictment...

The Repubs are bullies - they must be confronted on all issues at once.

'Kerry would become the center of attention as a sore loser' - unless the whole story came out and the WH was knocked flat by the truth.

Also - isn't the fear of being called a 'sore loser' another version of what if they call him a 'conspiracy nut'?; what if they call him 'power-hungry'? -- names, name-calling. That is not enough reason for me.

[Hissyspit]

22. He's got the GAO report...

He's got the Ohio Coin Scandal.

He's got Blackwell.

Much he can use to support his contention.

[MelissaB]

25. Does anybody have a list with links handy?

I'm sure it would be amazing to see the number of items.

[Catamount]

26. Stolen election--

After last year's debacle, I have learned one sad fact about elections in America -- (god knows about other countries).
It is this:
It is actually well known among politicians and journalists etc, that it's common practice to steal any election that is close!
Apparently it's been going on forever, by both parties!
I have heard many conversations on AA and read many blogs about this, and it makes me sick.
How can this be so?
How can this ever be resolved if everyone is involved?
I hope that someone has a good answer for me, since it's hard for me to understand.
:mad:

[RazzleDazzle]

27. I'm with you. He marginalizes HIMSELF by his silence, and

imperils democracy in the process -- and that's not hyperbole.

[paulk]

84. that's the stupidist thing I've heard all day

Kerry imperils Democracy because the election was stolen by Bush??

and who is he marginalizing himself with?

The handwringers here at DU?

LOL...

[sandnsea]

28. Give me ONE machine

Just ONE, where there is proof that it was tampered with and how it was tampered with. Until then, he can't say stolen election.

What he has said though, is that election fraud that targets minorities has got to stop and he's been saying it since the beginning of the year. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence to prove that.

[texpatriot2004]

30. There were several incidents reported last year...machines

counting in reverse, machines that "lost" hundreds of votes, machines that counted Kerry votes as * votes...you must not have read through the compilation of incidents or the news articles on these machines.

In fact, there were several thousand incident reports gathered and compiled not all of these were machine issues but many of them were.

[sandnsea]

31. Hacked, Hacked, Hacked

Have you got one machine that you can prove was hacked and how it was hacked? Just one?

Listen, I'm the one that started screaming "Glitchgate" within days of the election. I wanted to point to all those wacked out machines, all across the country not just in Ohio. But noooo, everybody else ran off on the stolen election Diebold conspiracy "it's okay to say the f word" rant.

How do you think it feels to watch things stay fucked up because conspiracy theorists are more interested in their conspiracies than change??

[texpatriot2004]

33. From the GAO Report

Data files containing cast votes are not encrypted to protect them from being viewed and modified.
• Other computer programs can access cast votes and alter them without the system recording this action in its audit logs.
• Some ballot definition files can be altered on some models so that votes shown on the touch screen for one candidate could be counted for another candidate.
• A regional vote tabulation computer could be accessed via a modem connection.
• Using altered memory cards an optical scan system could be accessed and modified without leaving any record in the audit log.
• Security examinations revealed inadequate password protections, including easily guessed passwords, or IDs usable by all supervisors.
• Smart cards or memory cards are not secured on some voting systems, making them easily accessible to vote multiple times, change vote totals and produce false election results.
• Reliance on telecommunications or networking services, including wireless communication, exposes electronic voting systems to risk of intrusion.
• Source code information is inadequate, hard to detect or contains hidden functionality.
• Current tests assess functionality, while security flaws can escape testing.
• System failures and malfunctions during elections have led to polling place disruptions, disenfranchised voters and vote-counting errors.
• Because of poor version control of software, uncertified software was installed in California and Indiana.
Although there is no consensus about the pervasiveness of these problems, if the security weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the electronic systems currently in place are exploited, “changes in election results could go undetected.” (38) There is evidence that these weaknesses and vulnerabilities “have caused problems with recent elections, resulting in the loss and miscount of votes.” (38)

[sandnsea]

36. "could be" "can be"

This is NOT PROOF. This is not what I asked for. ONE MACHINE that has been HACKED and HOW it was hacked. Thats proof. That's evidence.

Yes the machines have problems. Glitchgate is proof of that and something EVERYBODY would have understood. Stolen Election requires a conspiracy theory across the country with machines where it wouldn't even make sense to hack them.

[texpatriot2004]

41. There are reported incidents and combined with the GAO there

is enough.

[sandnsea]

44. Beyond a reasonable doubt?

No. There isn't enough.

[texpatriot2004]

47. I disagree. n.t

[eridani]

94. We hav PROBABLE CAUSE--

--and that's all we need. The proof, if any will come with a thorough investigation, which we haven't had.

[texpatriot2004]

35. I am not sure what you mean about "conspiracy theories"

and "conspiracy theorists."

[sandnsea]

37. Of course you do

But how fun to put your integrity aside and try and play the game.

[texpatriot2004]

39. No. I am not sure what you mean and I resent your tone. nm

[sandnsea]

43. And I resent yours

So I guess we're even.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

29. Yes he needs to say out LOUD AND CLEAR and Host a March

in Washington - WOW can you imagine how many would turn out for that? It would make Sept 24th look like the small gathering the news media tried to spin it.

I know an enormous amount of people who basically believe the fraud happened, but because the leader doesn't believe it, it must not have been as bad as WE think. All it would take is for him to stand up and say, "Damn, I had no idea the fraud was this vast, I had no idea I won the election!" Then, we could indict the clan, make a deal for pardon's provided they name John Kerry as Vice President prior to the Bush resignation. Think I am crazy? YES this plan could work! I have often wondered if this was part of the ultimate plan, and that Kerry was just waiting for the proper moment.

I hope I am correct, call me a dreamer if you want, without dreams - what do we have?

[mzmolly]

38. Here's what would happen. We could kiss voter reform legislation GOODBYE!

We NEED Republicans to support various legislation requiring a paper trail etc. in order to pass said legislation. We will not get THAT CRUCIAL SUPPORT if Kerry starts yelling "they stole the election!"

Kerry has to work on CEVA and/or similar acts in order to be certain they don't steal the election from us again in the coming years. We are in the minority currently, and like it or not, we NEED Republican support on voter reform.

[texpatriot2004]

40. I think you are reaching with your conclusion. n.t

[mzmolly]

42. So you think we'd get Republicans to support voter reform if we claim

they stole the last election?

I think THAT is a reach.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

46. And please, we are not trying to reform VOTERS we are trying to

reform the ELECTIONS! Sorry, but voter reform is not the intent of the ELECTION REFORM community.

Additionally, do you really think they will reform it if no one calls them on the fraud? Won't happen without something massive happening like a revelation by Kerry. We have documentation, countless affidavits and studies. If the only thing our case against the fraud hinges on is a technician speaking, then get a National Dem to put up some reward money! The only reward money I have heard of is $100,000. This is not enough for a corrupt tech working for a corrupt computer company to risk his job, etc. for! Look at what has happened to those who have spoken!

[texpatriot2004]

49. Exactly. I agree 100% nm

[mzmolly]

64. Parsing words are we? Election-Voting reform is the obvious subject here.

Note the title of this entry by Kos:

"VOTER REFORM" :eyes:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/8/11406/1935

And, I KNOW that reform is on the way as it currently has bi-partisian support.

See here for legislation pending:

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?list=type&type=13

Unfortunately as I said, we need Republicans to effect change on this front, and we won't have them if we cry "STOLEN ELECTION!"

[texpatriot2004]

48. You won't get support from Rethugs on this issue. There is no

reason for them to change what is working for them.

[mzmolly]

56. We already have some Rethugs on this issue.

:hi:

[texpatriot2004]

62. Who? nm

[mzmolly]

63. It depends:

There are several things in the works. Check here for more specifics:

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?list=type&type=13

HR 550 has bi-partisian support for example:

H.R. 550 is the "gold standard" of voter verifiability legislation, incorporating not only a requirement for voter-verified paper records but also mandatory manual audits to confirm that voting machines are working properly.

A voter-verified paper record (VVPR) is the "bottom line" without which we cannot have reliable elections. But the voter-verified paper record must be audited too. Although more than half the states have now made VVPR an official requirement, many states still do not have adequate audit requirements. H.R.550 provides that minimum standard.

The bill also has increased security requirements, prohibits undisclosed software, and more. It continues to gain momentum, with 156 Republican and Democrat co-sponsors to date, but more co-sponsors are needed. VerifiedVoting.org supports H.R. 550 in the strongest possible terms, and we urge its immediate passage.

Additionally ...

Rep. Steve King (R-IA) introduced a bill that seemed headed in the right direction, but although it calls for a voter-verified paper ballot, it misses the critical point that in the event of a discrepancy, the paper ballot must prevail over electronic. Therefore we cannot endorse that bill as written. We are encouraged, however, to see its 36 Republican co-sponsors demonstrate interest in the issue.

We are on our way to effecting change in this regard. But if we approach this from the position of "they stole the election" we can kiss bi-partisian support goodbye. If we lose credibility with them, when we need it to make a difference, we lose - period.

[texpatriot2004]

66. Pete King was privy to the fraud...any relation to this King? nm

[IndyOp]

72. I think it was Peter King (R-NY) who was infamous for

saying that he was sure that they would win once all the votes were counted and that 'they' (rethugs) would take care of counting the votes...

[mzmolly]

74. Not sure. But, I am encouraged that we will see a change.

I hope it's soon.

[texpatriot2004]

68. So which Rethugs exactly are supporting this? nm

[mzmolly]

75. You'd have to scour the information I gave you or contact Verified Voting

to find out the specifics.

You can click the link for VV that I posted above and look at the various legislation. HR 550 is the act that VV supports, HR 450 is the Kerry act and there is a companion in the house for both.

I started to list them specifically but I'd have to do the same work anyone else can.

As I said the good news is that NOW we have bi-partisian interest, and I'd personally like to keep it that way.

[texpatriot2004]

77. So you can't name any besides Steve King? nm

[mzmolly]

80. Dup

*

[mzmolly]

82. No YOU can't name any. If you'd have bothered to "click" the links

I provided you would have found this bit of information on the King Bill for starters:

There are 27 names here for the record, and this is ONE piece of legislation offered on this issue.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR00278:@@@P

Rep Akin, W. Todd - 4/12/2005 Rep Bartlett, Roscoe G. - 1/20/2005
Rep Bass, Charles F. - 1/20/2005 Rep Bradley, Jeb - 1/25/2005
Rep Burton, Dan - 2/1/2005 Rep Cubin, Barbara - 1/25/2005
Rep Diaz-Balart, Lincoln - 1/25/2005 Rep Duncan, John J., Jr. - 1/25/2005
Rep Feeney, Tom - 10/19/2005 Rep Franks, Trent - 4/25/2005
Rep Gingrey, Phil - 5/10/2005 Rep Green, Gene - 2/8/2005
Rep Harris, Katherine - 6/23/2005 Rep Issa, Darrell E. - 2/1/2005
Rep Jones, Walter B., Jr. - 2/1/2005 Rep Kline, John - 2/1/2005
Rep Linder, John - 2/9/2005 Rep Myrick, Sue - 4/14/2005
Rep Norwood, Charlie - 1/25/2005 Rep Paul, Ron - 1/20/2005
Rep Pearce, Stevan - 2/1/2005 Rep Pitts, Joseph R. - 4/19/2005
Rep Sessions, Pete - 4/12/2005 Rep Shays, Christopher - 2/1/2005
Rep Upton, Fred - 2/8/2005 Rep Weldon, Dave - 2/1/2005
Rep Wilson, Joe - 1/20/2005

I'm not going to bother to format this. Again, YOU are capable of researching this yourself right?

[texpatriot2004]

86. FYI I did click the links nm

[mod mom]

83. TOM NOE WILL SOON BE UNDER OATH! His wife was chair of Lucas County

BOE-a county with so many election problems that Balckwell was forced to investigate. His trial is the perfect chance to get a connected rethug under oath to testify!

[NoBushSpokenHere]

45. We cannot rely on Democrat support for election reform

how do you expect to have Republican support? We have to indict the corrupt members, come out strong against the fraud just as Harry Reid did regarding the pre-Iraq investigations. Crucial support does not happen with silence.

Look at the Bush approval ratings..........how low can they go? Do you think the amount of people that DISAPPROVE would not APPLAUDE KERRY for taking a stand? They would LOVE HIM TO DEATH!

The cheers throughout the nation for him would resound through the congressional doors! The leader and the massive numbers supporting him would result in a change, a change desparately needed in this country.

[texpatriot2004]

50. Yes. Kerry has much to gain here. The people are waiting, they

are eager to rally around and support a leader who will fight on this issue - election fraud.

[mzmolly]

57. Apparently you are another DU-er who is not familiar with pending

legislation?

I love the idea of a "revolution" folks, but revolutions happen in the Senate/Congress in this nation.

We are in the process of a SLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOW, revolt as we speak. It's coming. But, we have to be aware and encourage those who are fighting for change.

[texpatriot2004]

69. You are wrong about me, you have no idea and you speak

too quickly in your judgment of what I am aware of or not aware of.

[mzmolly]

76. I was not replying to you TP.

And, I was not speaking specifically about anyone per se.

[texpatriot2004]

70. Revolutions used to happen there before it became defunct. nt

[mzmolly]

79. I think were on our way to becoming relevant again.

2006 is around the corner, and new attention is being given this issue.

I have signed up with Verified Voting and I hope everyone here will.

[texpatriot2004]

87. 2006 will be no different from 2000, 2002 or 2004 nm

[mzmolly]

88. Oh I beg to differ. In 2006 we'll take back the house/senate.

;)

[texpatriot2004]

89. Are we going to cheat? Nothing has changed. Still the same

broken voting system used in the last 3 stolen elections.

[mzmolly]

92. The hope is to change the system before the 06 elections.

We have a variety of different systems being used around the US, some are not as vulnerable to tampering.

[buddysmellgood]

51. You're being very kind. You're bending over backward to explain how

how hard it would be for Kerry to do the right thing. But let's not forget that we were talking about a candidate for POTUS. I believe he won. I don't think corupticans can prove that Bush won. There is such a thing as integrity. Some things are worth fighting for. If this wasn't worth Kerry's career, then he didn't really want the job.

[ignatzmouse]

52. Holding back discredits any future candidacy

Indeed, the truth is that nationally he is politically dead. He's seen a loser and won't get another chance UNLESS the crookedness of the election is exposed and proved as stolen. The public sentiment would then shift to take his side as someone who was cheated and deserved the office. It's the only thing that can resurrect him at this point.

[KittyWampus]

65. Yeah, Well, There Are Different WAYS To Say "It". Kerry Saying 04 Was

STOLEN wouldn't be helpful and, in fact, counter productive.

Because your analogy neglects to mention the Mediawhores who would enable all those "family members" still trying to keep status quo.

So while you make ONE point, which is the necessity of changing the dialog to move it forward and reframing the debate... you LOSE THREE points for not recognizing the importance of language, timing and finding strategies to do end runs around a complicit, traitorous Media.

[mod mom]

73. TO PARAPHRASE DR. MLK: "it is not the actions of bad people, but the

appalling silence of the good people.”

It would greatly help the image of the Democratic Party in the eyes of African Americans, many who feel betrayed over the lack of support for their vote. I believe now is the time for Kerry to take the political risk because it is the right thing to do. The issue here is truth. The lack of response by the Dems (with your noted exceptions) is beyond comprehension to many progressives. 2000, 2002, 2004 no more business as usual! The GAO report speaks for the case that can be made!

[yurbud]

91. John Conyers is the leader of the Democratic Party, not John Kerry

[stepnw1f]

85. Some Trolls Would Attack Him

That's for sure.

[yurbud]

90. What Shrum-ish consultants over-look: even if you are being called a kook,

the idea would be getting into the public debate.

The idea that Bush at the very least ignored warnings before 9/11 was called a nutty conspiracy theory until the public testimony before the 9/11 Commission, most famously, Richard Clarke's and Condi Rice's.

There would be a short term loss in stature, but a long term gain for democracy.

[Totally Committed]

93. He Won't say it, and this article says why:

Robert Parry/Consortium News: Kerry Suspects Election 2004 Was Stolen
Article Backs up Mark Crispen Miller Assertions

The Massachusetts senator conceded to George W. Bush on Nov. 3, 2004, the day after the election when it became clear that the uncounted votes in the swing state of Ohio were insufficient to erase Bush’s narrow lead.... The move infuriated some Democratic activists who felt Kerry should have lived up to his campaign promise that he would make sure every vote was counted. In January 2005, as Bush’s victory was being certified by Congress, Kerry also refused to back a resolution challenging the fairness of the Ohio vote.

snip>

Miller and Winer said Kerry suspected possible tampering with electronic voting machines, but that he was persuaded by his campaign’s top advisers, including veteran consultant Bob Shrum, that contesting the results only would lead to accusations that Kerry was a sore loser.

snip>

On “Democracy Now,” Miller said Kerry bent to the will of his campaign advisers to concede, even though his vice presidential running mate, John Edwards, favored holding out until more information was in.... Based on reporting for Fooled Again, (Mark Crispen) Miller said Kerry told Edwards in a phone call that *Shrum and other advisers insisted that a concession was the best course. “They say that if I don’t pull out, they (Kerry’s political opponents) are going to call us sore losers,” Miller said, recounting the substance of Kerry’s phone call to Edwards.... Miller said Edwards responded, “So what if they call us sore losers?” But Kerry pressed ahead with his decision to concede.

snip>

“Kerry’s caving in like that gave an enormous gift to the right wing,” Miller said. “They (the conservatives) could now claim, ‘well, even their (the Democrats’) candidate doesn’t think it was stolen. And they (Kerry and his advisers) left … the American people hanging out to dry there.”

Entire Article here:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/110505.html


* imo, Bob Shrum should never be allowed anywhere near another Democratic Campaign again as long as he lives.

TC