Are Illegal Immigrants Criminals? Not hardly

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0503h.asp

I hear it from some of the nicest people one would ever meet. Some dear friends of mine, whom I respect very much, say that all illegal immigrants are criminals because they broke the laws that control who may come into this country. And since these immigrants are criminals, we don’t want that kind of person here.

Such accusations confuse what is legal with what is moral. American history is filled with people who broke unjust laws and were morally justified in doing so.

The American Revolution was fought by men and women who broke the laws of England and of King George III. Had they been arrested, they would have been hanged for treason to the Crown. If breaking the law makes one a criminal, then the Founding Fathers were all criminals. But no one still believes that today.

Dred Scott and thousands of other slaves defied the Fugitive Slave Act and ran away, “stealing themselves” from Southern plantation masters in the early and mid 1800s. Those who were arrested were returned to their slave “owners,” and anyone found trying to help them escape to Canada was prosecuted as well.

Many juries exercised jury nullification. Declaring that the law was unjust, juries often refused to convict participants in the Underground Railroad. No one today would claim that a runaway slave was a criminal.

In the 1930s there were hundreds of Jews who came to American shores aboard the SS St. Louis, forcibly rejected under the guise of immigration quotas, many of whom ultimately perished in Hitler’s concentration camps. Countless potential immigrants watched in desperate disappointment.

[YouthInAsia]

1. They "illegal" so therefore, they are ciminals. They are here ILLEGALLY

[patricia92243]

4. Amen!

[gardenista]

8. So escaped slaves were criminals too, right? nt

[EFerrari]

9. So were voting women. n/t

[YouthInAsia]

29. totally different scenario.

[EFerrari]

30. How so?

It's about power and control to the cabal.

If we lose jobs, do you think they care?

Undocumented workers are natural allies of the progressive movement. Really, think about it.

Qui bono?

[YouthInAsia]

28. totally different scenario. Slavery was IMMORAL. Illegal immigrants

are here ILLEGALLY. Thats not an IMMORAL issue, its a LEGAL issue. If you want to come to our country, do do LEGALLY

[EFerrari]

39. So, hunger is not a moral issue? Please. n/t

[YouthInAsia]

42. what the hell does that mean??? Im not trying to be smart, I just dont

understand what you're trying to say

[EFerrari]

43. Hungry people look for anyway they can to feed themselves

and their family. That is what undocumented workers are all about.

They don't come here to take my job. They come here hoping to survive.

How much do you want to deny another person the food they need to live?

I'm not trying to be smart, either. I live in CA where there are many, many undocumented workers.

As long as we attack "them" and not the root problem, the corporatists who deny me a job and exploit "them", we're screwed, "they" are screwed and the Cabal is nice and fat and happy. :(

And I just broke my word by posting again. Sorry.

[fishwax]

48. escaped slaves were free ILLEGALLY too

it was a legal issue then ...

[Telly Savalas]

46. In some jurisdictions oral sex was illegal.

Does that make its practioners criminals?

(Edit to correct to past tense.)

[wakeme2008]

2. And just remember

to one part of the Repugs they are "Illegal Immigrants" and the other parts wants them as "Guest Workers"...

[sam sarrha]

3. we must protect our boarders from criminal elements in the Mexican Governme...

..t that are driving out the native populations and in effect criminally exporting their poverty to raise the standard of living for the "Have It All's" in mexico.. whose standard of living is second only to France. This program is just short of Genocide. 10% of the population of Mexico has migrated to the US, where do you draw the line, 25,000,000 jobs to NAFTA and about 20,000,000 migrants who do take jobs... and lower wages and benefits.. been there experienced that.. in 3 differint states. It is a big problem in many areas. because it isnt one where you live dont be a naysayer.

a couple of years ago the UN declared Mexico "Morally Bankrupt and Democratically Irretrievable"

[TahitiNut]

5. Question: What does Mexico do to "Illegal Immigrants"??

What would happen if a retiree, for example, merely moved to some coastal Mexican town, bought a house and lived there permanently ... without formal permission?

How about Nicaragua? Cost Rica? Belize? El Salvador?

[murray hill farm]

12. In Mexico...

probably nothing would happen to you...until u tried to leave the country...u could come into the country...as a visitor..and would be given a one to six month visa...there would be some limitations to staying longer without papers..such as opening a bank account or getting a drivers license, but that would be about it. But..when u tried to leave, you would be fined..usually hefty fines for overstaying your approved time in mexico..if you could not pay the fine...u would then be restricted from returning to mexico..usually a six month period. on edit....that would be with your "illegal" time being without incident....no problems with the law, automobile accident, etc.

[NNN0LHI]

13. I haven't researched the immigration policies of those governments

If you know what their policies are I would be interested in knowing them. But I don't see how that relates to our governments immigration policies or lack there of. I am winning you over on this subject ain't I TN?

Don

[TahitiNut]

25. Well, I have a position on this that's relatively unchanged.

I regard illegal immigrants/aliens as law-breakers, not felons. I regard knowing employers of illegal immigrants/aliens as criminals, no matter how the laws are currently written. I regard the spewage of "no Americans would take the jobs" as sheer fraud - lying. People will do work for adequate pay.

It's really detestable how the worshipers of "supply/demand" laissez faire "invisible hand" markets immediately abandon their religion when they're the ones on the "demand side" and they have to game the system.

So, I'd deport the illegals and ban them from returning for some time. On repeat offenders, I'd support jail time -- UNLESS they gave testimony that led to the conviction and imprisonment of a scofflaw employer. I'd make the employment of illegal immigrants a felony and I'd put the employers in prison. Hard time. Just as I could metaphorically call ten million illegal immigrants the equivalent of an invasion, I could call the employers traitors.

After, and only after, doing the above, I'd entertain legislation that created "guest worker" programs that varied according to our own unemployment rates.

Probably most important, I'd exert the maximum amount of pressure on Mexico and Central American governments to radically and rapidly improve their economic system, driving their Gini coefficient down below 0.40.

[NNN0LHI]

27. We are getting on the same page here

Although admittedly you understand the socio-economic implications of all this much better than I do. Thanks for your post.

Don

[TahitiNut]

36. Sure. It should be emphasized that economic powers, many of which ...

... are "American" companies, are exacerbating the inequities and impoverishment of laborers in Mexico, Central America, and Haiti rather than alleviating the political and economic conditions that oppress these people. They are doing so with impunity. The real 'racism' is in that exploitation - the greedy and malicious cynicism that props up market colonialism and plantation economics. We cannot 'solve' such conditions by permitting those who exploit these people to continue doing so. That includes the affluent San Diego householder who finds it easier to sit on his butt while an illegal immigrant cleans his toilets for $2/hour. (Yes, I'm very familiar with the hypocrisy there.)

[NorthernSpy]

33. thank you for your post!

Illegal labor hurts working class Americans.

It's not just about seasonal agricultural work anymore. Factory work, warehouse work, construction -- American workers are getting pushed out of solid blue-collar jobs in their own country. And no, these workers are NOT thrilled to have their livelihood taken away from them and given to the illegals -- though some people here seem to think that they should be.

[KittyWampus]

61. People will do work for adequate pay? BULLSHIT

Recent example to prove that's made up crap:

Local woman's son with lawn mowing/yard care business. Pays pretty well, prefereably on the books... trouble finding help. Settled for hiring hispanic immigrants off books

Me when I had a lanscape/gardening business- was willing to pay someone to essentially be my partner (make exactly what I charged customers), couldn't find anyone. Settled for Irish kids here for summer.

Local Garden Nursery where I used to work- pays weekly salary on books, can't find reliable help. They're still juggling.

Local Rubberstamp store- trouble finding help paying employees about as much as owner himself was making. Wonder if they found anyone.

All these instances included potential employees who demanded certain days and times off, expected unrealistic benefits or more money then small business could actually afford.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Illegal immigrants are "illegal" because they're poor and defenseless.

We sure don't want "their kind" in our egalitarian country.

[EFerrari]

10. Sure we do. We want their cheap labor and their legal limbo

because it lets the cronies off the hook.

[EFerrari]

20. Check this out. Proof positive that the corporatists want

the legal limbo:



By JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Writer 41 minutes ago

GULFPORT, Miss. - A pattern is emerging as the cleanup of Mississippi's Gulf Coast morphs into its multibillion-dollar reconstruction: Come payday, untold numbers of Hispanic immigrant laborers are being stiffed.
ADVERTISEMENT

Sometimes, the boss simply vanishes. Other workers wait on promises that soon, someone in a complex hierarchy of contractors will provide the funds to pay them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051105/ap_on_bi_ge/katrina_immigrant_workers

I don't understand why people don't understand this. :shrug:

[gardenista]

7. Thanks for your post. I have a story for you.

I have a friend who is here on a temporary work visa. His wife is a permanent resident, and his child is a US Citizen. He owns a home, is gainfully self-employed, and pays his taxes. He is devoted to his family, and volunteers in his community and has a large and supportive group of family and friends, with varying levels of legal status here in the US.

His mother died in Mexico. He is not permitted to travel to her funeral because if he leaves the US, his work visa will be cancelled, a three year application process will be cancelled, all the paperwork thrown out by the INS, and he will not be allowed to re-apply or even re-enter for 10 years. Consequently, he will not be able to support his wife and child, his house will be foreclosed upon, and his brilliant child, who is the best student in his class, will be forced to leave a school he loves and either relocate to Mexico, or go wherever his mother lands in the US once they've lost their home.

Anyone on this board who thinks that is fair treatment can kiss my ass.

[beyurslf]

17. MY roommate is 30yo, has lived here sincer she was 12 when her mother

brought her here legally. She has paid taxes ever since she had her first job at 15. She graduated high school here. She graduated college here. She has not gotten her citizenship yet. She can't vote of course but they happily take her tax money every year.

Didn't have a fight about tea and taxes without representation a long time ago? Who thinks that is fair?

[_testify_]

22. Out of curiosity....if she came here legally

and is obviously staying, why hasn't she become a citizen?

Is there a legal barrier I am not aware of? Because otherwise the ball is in her court - get your citizenship, then you can vote, which makes paying all those taxes worth it...

[beyurslf]

24. I keep telling her to. She is afraid she won't pass the test because

apparently it is difficult. It is alsoa little expensive. If I remember right, it is like $500. I honestly don't know for sure though. I am working on her though and am pretty sure she is taking it next summer.

[Mass]

18. This is a perfectly unfair treatment and the sad thing is that so-called

progressives dont seem to mind.

[gardenista]

26. I know, I don't get it.

The worst thing about it is that he's followed all the rules, filed all the right papers, but the delays in processing have put him in this limbo for 3 years. And now there is a tragedy in his family and he may have to risk it all to be with his family in Mexico.

My heart aches for him and his family.

[Dorian Gray]

58. Yeah,

it took my ex- three years. He came here from England, was allowed to legally work. But the immigration process is a joke, which is why most people choose to come here illegally.

When I moved to England, I had my work visa in one hour. When my ex moved from England to the USA, it took 9 months to get HIS work visa. And his Green Card (legal residency status) took two and a half years.

The system is all red tape and a bunch of bureaucrats who have no interest in doing a quick and easy job. Taking out all their 'busy work' makes their job seem less important.

[knitter4democracy]

41. I think everyone who hates immigrants should have a loved one

go through dealing with INS. The rules are arcane, the costs are high, and after awhile, you start wondering if anyone sane is running the system.

My mom's husband has lived legally in this country since he was a young boy. His mom and dad came here from Germany legally (his dad works for Volkswagon), got divorced, and his mom got a worker visa and eventually citizenship. He went to schools legally as her minor and then to college up through his doctorate on a school visa. While he was in grad school, he met and fell in love with my mom (yes, major age difference, but it works for them), and once he got out of grad school, he got a work visa and started working on his application for citizenship after he married my mom.

I'm one of their references. This guy is an amazing scientist (soil sciences), a wonderful husband, and an even better grandfather to my children. The process they've gone through for his green card and citizenship has been painful and expensive. At one point, every one of the references had to all be at a meeting in Detroit (when several of us live two hours away and one in Kansas)--and then they just saw that we were there (after three hours of waiting) and said it was fine. Grrr.

The process is long, expensive, and silly. One could make an argument that it should be that way to protect us, but you should've seen that waiting room and all those people just trying to live here. INS is just awful.

Oh, and all the people they've been rounding up on trumped up charges who have lived here legally for often decades as productive citizens? How is that fair? We have a local man from Turkey (he's Kurdish) who spent ages in jail while his wife and daughter tried to keep his restaurant going (with much community help) because they changed their minds on the KDP and made it retroactive. You should've read the government's statements in our paper on how he was this horribly dangerous terrorist when it was all a bunch of crap. I've met the man myself, and no one was a more truly patriotic American than he. He agitated for Kurdish rights, did some time in a Turkish prison, came here afterwards and lived peacefully for decades only to get railroaded by the INS changing the rules. Disgusting.

Check this website for his story: http://www.freeibrahim.com/

[EFerrari]

62. Worse than disgusting. Inhumane.

My mom has been a citizen since 1955. She needed some docs from the INS in order to vacation in El Salvador and they treated her as if she was cattle. She's a little brown woman with an accent.

The smartest, hardest working person I'll ever know. I wanted to commit a felony, I was so ANGRY. I have no accent and am not brown and got the job done for her. And that also made me really angry.

And sad, as well, because we could be doing a much better job of all this.

[philarq]

11. Take it from someone who has actually been deported

It is against the law to stay in most countries without documents (visas usually). Somehow there is a group in America that does not understand this, and wants to ignore the legality of immigration. I welcome them to attempt an experiment.

Pick a country--any country--move there and stay past your visa end date...Now see how long you stay out of jail and un-deported. and when you are jailed and deported think to yourself how much better it seems that America is treating Mexican deportees.

I would welcome you to try this experiment someplace like Singapore, or Australia where you might be jailed and lightly beaten. Or if you really place no value on your life try it in Uganda or Zaire.

[Chicago Democrat]

14. My ancestor came here illegally and was hidden by relatives and

everyone changed their names.


It was the late 1800's and Norway and Sweden were at war. Christopher Wallen, my ancestor went AWOL from the Swedish navy while at port in NYC. Hidden by the relatives the whole family changes their name to "Johnson" the most common Swedish name, to keep the Swedish navy police off the track of relatives of the AWOL Sailor..



I say let em in!

[beyurslf]

15. Driving 75 in a 70mph zone is breaking the law. I don't want criminals

here either. To where should we ship them?

[Mass]

19. Breaking the law is not necessarily being a criminal

Either that or we are all criminals. Who has not parked his car where it was forbidden?

[beyurslf]

23. I know. I am making the point that everyone breaks laws. Who hasn't had

a speeding ticket at some point in their life--and is therefore a "criminal" under this logic.

[BuyingThyme]

16. Now let's compare rapists to slaves.

[MisterP]

47. or immigrants to rapists

[countryjake]

50. No, compare immigrant slave-masters to the rapists,

undocumented workers are looked upon very much as slaves were, after the Emancipation!

[Mass]

21. Excellent post -

[redherring]

31. Did the Irish who came here to escape famine

come here legally? All of them? Somehow I have a hard time believing that so was the case.
What about the Italian influx?

The problem that people have with illegal immigration(although they will never admit it) is that Mexicans are not White. Some people don't want demographics in America to change.

Now, I am an immigrant myself, and I am ambivalent on the immigration issue. Maybe we need to fix Mexico so that they don't see a need to come to America. I guess fixing the 14th amendment loophole(anybody born in the United States is a US citizen. So illegal immigrants try to get pregnant here) is a good idea.

In any event, I don't really know if I am for or against immigration of that type.

[Bridget Burke]

67. In those days, all you needed was a strong back.

If you had TB, you were not allowed in. Otherwise--just walk through immigration & go to work. No expensive lawyers to hire, no hoops to jump through.

If you were white, that is! Asians had it harder.

[PsN2Wind]

32. Check out the court dockets here in Southern Arizona

and you'll find a helluva alot of them are.
Exporting jobs and importing labor have the same effect on those trying to find work at a livable wage. I've personally worked in the construction and meat-processing industries but if you go to a construction site in the Tucson area you won't many Gringos now, or legal workers for that matter. The contractors all like to piss and moan that paying a livable wage to the laborers would make homes less affordable but neglect to mention that the CEO of KB Homes made forty-three million dollars last year.
Idealism increases by the square of the distance from the problem.

[EFerrari]

34. And so does reactivity.

Do you know why DUers talk about undocumented people as "them"?

Because "they" are powerless.

I'd dearly love to see us become exercised at the corporatists that keep this whole debacle going.

It's DANGEROUS to be undocumented. You can't report a rape. You can't turn in your employer for screwing you. This list gets long.

I used to do legal translations here in San Francisco County. Do you know how many of "them" I translated for who had been picked up and stuck in a jail cell and held there FOR MONTHS, incommunicado, without even being able to let their families know they were alive?

I'd like to see this stop, too. Because it's dangerous and only benefits the cabal.

[NorthernSpy]

35. "Idealism increases by the square of the distance from the problem."

Absolutely!

I have HAD it with these pseudo-progressives whose idea of generosity is to take jobs away from poor and working class Americans and give them to law-breaking foreigners. I always want to tell such people to please try to find a less destructive way of relieving their affluent-class "liberal" guilt.

[NNN0LHI]

37. Yes its all them "law-breaking foreigners" fault (Read MEXICANS)

Its never the fault of the innocent wealthy American corporatist and the American stockholders who get rich off of their labor by hiring them. Right?

Don

[EFerrari]

40. You know, Don, I think DU is going through a really cranky

weekend.

I'm not posting to this thread any more because all I'll be doing is pissing people off or being appalled myself. But I thank you for posting it.

Beth
/spellin'

[NorthernSpy]

51. where did I say that American corporations WEREN'T at fault?

:eyes:

[alarcojon]

55. Just a noticeable omission

[EFerrari]

38. Um, which progressives would those be?

How many DUers keep this policy going? Am I missing something?

Why so much animosity towards the powerless?

Really, I just don't get it. It must be me.

[NorthernSpy]

52. that's just it -- they *aren't* really progressives at all

Just clueless twits -- typically from the upperclass.

Why so much animosity towards the powerless?

Why so much animosity toward working class Americans who don't want to get pushed out of their jobs?

Really, I just don't get it. It must be me.

Or maybe you don't get it because you don't have to get it. It's one thing to have an opinion; it's another thing to have an actual stake in the matter.

[EFerrari]

59. We all have a stake in this situation but we all don't have power.

You're attacking the wrong target.

And, you don't know what my resources are. My husband was homeless in the Tenderloin for a year. You might want to google for the CNN transcript.

Geeze.

/typo

[Bridget Burke]

68. Do the court dockets identify "illegals"

Or do you just see a bunch of "Mexican looking"names?

[Drix]

44. Immigration Fantasies and Reality

Imagine you are a Black African living in Africa. Resources in your immediate area are scarce so you walk 100 miles to secure resources for your family to survive. You cross a border. You then encounter a White man who informs you that you are an illegal alien in "his" country and that you must leave.

Let's be clear here. Mexicans are direct descendants of Native Americans. They look Native American/Indian. Especially those lowest on the economic ladder. I'm not talking about the very European looking actors you see on the novellas on Spanish language television, I'm talking about the ones you see waiting on bus stops to do the lowest wage domestic work. Their ancestors have been on this continent thousands of years before American settlers.

As a person of color it is very disturbing to see people of European descent drawing borders on continents outside of Europe then telling the occupants that they are illegal and should "go back to where they came from".

And let's get real here. Borders are just imaginary lines drawn on paper. They are completely meaningless to the wind, water, the tide, birds, lizards, fish, earthquakes, etc. You are living in a fantasy world if you think North, Central, and South America will not be dominated, population-wise, by brown skinned people of Indian descent. It would be like living in the middle of China and complaining about all the Asians invading your space.

I realize that in the current political climate on the planet that borders will continue to exist. But the world is shrinking at a lighting pace and eventually the idea of patrolled borders will go the way of goat worshiping and witch burning.

People seem to like to focus on the symtom and not the problem. The problem is exploited labor and ecomonic injustice in Mexico and Central America. The symtom is Mexican nationals etc. crossing the border. All the hand wringing, bitching and moaning, increased border patrols, guest worker programs, etc. isn't going to do squat until there is political freedom and economic justice in Central America.

We can no longer put on blinders and pretend exploited labor in other coutries doesn't directly affect our standard of living here. The world is too small for that now.

The borders being violated is not imaginary ones on paper. It's not the imaginary differences skin color and racial characteristics. It's the rich exploiting the working middle class and working poor and pitting them against each other using imaginary non-tangibles such as as borders and race.

[EFerrari]

45. durn Mexicans

"It would be like living in the middle of China and complaining about all the Asians invading your space."

Precisamente.

My people have been going back and forth on this land since before the Brits were painting themselves blue and worshipping trees.

We always will. And criminalization won't stop us. So, instead of wasting your time demonizing us, you should think about what your corporate masters gain from keeping this mess going.

Yo adoro mi raza.

[alarcojon]

56. Que viva!

[countryjake]

49. Welcome to DU, Drix!

Excellent post! Looking forward to hearing much more from you!

[NorthernSpy]

53. ... and now for the *reality*:

Let's be clear here. Mexicans are direct descendants of Native Americans. They look Native American/Indian. Especially those lowest on the economic ladder. I'm not talking about the very European looking actors you see on the novellas on Spanish language television, I'm talking about the ones you see waiting on bus stops to do the lowest wage domestic work. Their ancestors have been on this continent thousands of years before American settlers.

You seem to be implying that an individual's Aztec descent entitles him to enter and remain in the historic lands of the Passamaquoddy, or the Oneida, or the Tlingit. I object to this. The people of the indigenous nations did NOT think of themselves as one lumped-together homogenous group with all the same rights to all the same territories.

Right now, illegal immigration places a serious burden on peoples such as the Tohono O'odham, whose lands abut the Mexican border. And they're sick of it.

All the hand wringing, bitching and moaning, increased border patrols, guest worker programs, etc. isn't going to do squat until there is political freedom and economic justice in Central America.

I say we try various measures and see for ourselves whether they work or not. Whether the subject is borders enforcement, or nearly anything else, the people who insist that certain ideas won't work are frequently the very same people who want us to fail anyway for reasons of their own.

The borders being violated is not imaginary ones on paper. It's not the imaginary differences skin color and racial characteristics. It's the rich exploiting the working middle class and working poor and pitting them against each other using imaginary non-tangibles such as as borders and race.

Aye, but if we ARE pitted against each other, let's get thing one straight: working class Americans are NOT morally obligated to lose. It is within our rights to demand effective borders enforcement and an end to illegal competition. We have as much right as any other group to seek to secure our own interests.

[EFerrari]

60. Or, you could simply give Mexico back the Southwest.

"We have as much right as any other group to seek to secure our own interests."

Of course. And the progressive move would be to make common cause with undocumented workers as labor is doing in Los Angeles. It's an effective strategy, doubles your influence and puts a LOT of pressure on management to clean up their act. It's a win-win.

Border enforcement is just a silly solution to a labor problem. Security I see as a different issue. We're not in any danger from Mexican nannies and gardeners.

[Maestro]

54. Great reply and echoes much at what I say in these threads.

Just some of my thoughts

The girl who the piece in the link is still with me at my school. She didn't pass fifth grade because of *'s insistence that all kids no matter what pass a standardized test to be promoted. The girl didn't pass because she is dumb. She didn't pass because she has many more things to worry about that Dumbya never has had to face.

[MojoXN]

57. As long as illegal immigrants are law abiding and paying taxes...

I don't have a problem with how they got into the country.

MojoXN

[nomatrix]

63. Did you write that article?

Employers who pay "off the books" are part of the underground economy.

Definition of "Underground Economy"

"Underground economy" is a term that refers to those individuals and businesses that deal in cash and/or use other schemes to conceal their activities and their true tax liability from government licensing, regulatory, and taxing agencies. Underground economy is also referred to as tax evasion, tax fraud, cash pay, tax gap, payments under-the-table, and off-the-books."


http://www.edd.ca.gov/taxrep/txueoind.htm

[nomatrix]

64. From the same CA link

"What Does It Cost You?

The Internal Revenue Service recently estimated that the federal government is losing $195 billion per year in revenue due to underground activity. In addition, it is estimated the size of the underground economy is anywhere from 3 to 40 percent of the aboveground economy. Based on this estimate, the California underground economy is estimated to be $60 to $140 billion.

Reports on the underground economy indicate it imposes significant burdens on: (1) the State of California, (2) businesses that comply with the law, and (3) workers who lose benefits and other protections provided by State law when the businesses they work for operate in the underground economy.

Business:

When businesses operate in the underground economy, they illegally reduce the amount of money expensed for insurance, payroll taxes, licenses, employee benefits, safety equipment, and safety conditions. These types of employers then gain an unfair competitive advantage over businesses that comply with the various business laws. This causes unfair competition in the marketplace and forces law-abiding businesses to pay higher taxes and expenses.

Workers:

Employees of the businesses that do not comply are also affected. Their working conditions may not meet the legal requirements, which can put them in danger. Their wage earnings may also be less than those required by law, and benefits they are entitled to can be denied or delayed because their wages are not properly reported.

Consumers:

Consumers can also be affected when contracting with unlicensed businesses. Licensing provisions are designed to ensure minimum levels of skill and knowledge to protect the consumer.

The ultimate impact is erosion of the economic stability and working conditions in this State."

[ktlyon]

65. The companies and people that are hiring them are criminals

If there were no jobs, there would be no workers risking their lives to get to the "promise land". How can you blame someone for wanting to improve the future of their family.

[markus]

66. The ugly battle coming to New Orleans

I believe it was intentional to wait I-9 requirements and allow the undocumented to flood into the Gulf Coast region.

Contratry to the polls (which usually focus on those people stranded in shelters, the poorest of the poor, who will treat Katrina as a chance to try and make a better life elswhere), most people want to return home.

When they do, the battle will not be the people of New Orleans against the carpetbaggers and scaliwags who've invaded their city. It will be the largely african-american population versus the undocumented who've been brought in to do the work.

Once again, the elites will have succeeded in pitting the poorest working people against each other, as they have in the south for generations, to escape any blame themselves.

The worst part is, I've always been sympathetic to the undocumented in this country, but this time I'm going to have to choose sides, and it's not theirs.

[entanglement]

69. I fear the RW will exploit this issue if things continue to go

badly for them. Xenophobia always thrives in tough economic times, and all the historical counter-examples and liberal arguments in the world are not going to convince angry people who hold immigrants responsible for their problems.