US Navy JUDGE; Iraq war ILLEGAL.

[LynnTheDem]

"I think that the government has successfully proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."

-- Lt. Cmdr. Robert Klant, presiding at Pablo Paredes' court-martial

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051305X.shtml

Gee, that's the same thing the top Judge in the UK just said, too. Actually, that's what most judges and international lawyers in the entire world say; ILLEGAL INVASION.

Gee, that makes bush a war criminal.

International legal experts regard Iraq war as illegal

The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) in Geneva expressed its “deep dismay that a small number of states are poised to launch an outright illegal invasion of Iraq, which amounts to a war of aggression.”

The rule governing self-defence applies only when an enemy attack has already taken place or is imminent. There is no legal sanction for a preventive war. Should a state regard itself as threatened by another a state, although no hostilities have taken place, the threatened state is obliged to call on the Security Council—the only body authorised to legitimise military action in such a case.
http://www.icj.org/IMG/pdf/Iraq_war_18_03_03_.pdf

Canadian law professors declare US-led war illegal

The US-led coalition’s war against Iraq is illegal, declared 31 Canadian professors of international law at 15 law faculties.

A US attack “would be a fundamental breach of international law and would seriously threaten the integrity of the international legal order that has been in place since the end of the Second World War,”
http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg01357.html

Australian legal experts declare an invasion of Iraq a war crime

Forty-three Australian experts in international law and human rights legislation have issued a declaration that an invasion of Iraq will be an open breach of international law and a crime against humanity...

...the indictment of the German Nazi leaders at the 1945-1949 Nuremberg War Crimes Trials was precisely for carrying out preemptive military strikes against neighbouring countries. They were tried and convicted of “planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances”.
http://law.anu.edu.au/cipl/Media/Waging%20war%20crimes%20Feb03.pdf

War on Iraq was illegal, say world's top lawyers

-Professor Philippe Sands QC Director of the Centre on International Courts and Tribunals, University College London

-Professor Robert Black QC Professor of Scots law, Edinburgh University, and architect of the Lockerbie trial in The Hague

-Professor Sean Murphy Associate professor of law at George Washington University, Washington DC

-Professor Vaughan Lowe Chichele Professor of Public International Law, All Souls College, Oxford

-Professor James Crawford Whewell Professor of International Law, Jesus College, Cambridge

-Professor Mary Kaldor Professor of global governance, London School of Economics
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/law/2003/0525warillegal.htm

Iraq War Illegal, Lawyers Say

Most experts in international law say they are not convinced either by the argument that military action against Iraq is authorized by earlier U.N. resolutions nor that the U.N. Charter allows self-defense against a perceived future threat.
http://middleeastinfo.org/article2270.html

War would be illegal

We are teachers of international law. On the basis of the information publicly available, there is no justification under international law for the use of military force against Iraq.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,909275,00.html

Lawyers Tell Senate: Use of Force Against Iraq Without New Security Council Resolution Is Unlawful; Urge Congress to Uphold U.N. Charter
http://www.wslfweb.org/docs/iraqpr.pdf

Iraq War was Illegal and Breached UN Charter, Says Annan
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/sep/16iraq.htm

One of Britain’s most senior judges last night accused ministers of producing “half-baked” criminal justice reforms and then blaming judges for the failings of the system. Lord Steyn, a law lord, also launched a scathing attack on ministers over the Iraq war, accusing them of “scraping the bottom of the legal barrel” to justify their case.

He said it was a “fairytale” to suggest that the Iraq war did not make London a “more dangerous place”.

Lord Steyn echoed the views of Lord Alexander of Weedon, QC, his predecessor at Justice, with a robust attack on the legality of the Iraq war. Lord Alexander’s view that the war was illegal “reflected the overwhelming view of international lawyers and was undoubtedly correct”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1832270,00.html

Jack Straw admits case for war in Iraq is weak
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9126.htm

How about Mr. Tony "I'm a big fucking liar" bLiar himself!

"If military action proves necessary, it will be to uphold the authority of the UN and to ensure Saddam is disarmed of his weapons of mass destruction, not to overthrow him. It is why, detestable as I find his regime, he could stay in power if he disarms peacefully."
http://www.sundayherald.com/print31827

OOPS eh Tony? The UN said HELL NO, so you in fact did NOT "uphold the authority of the UN", you VIOLATED it.

And here's your own Mr. Lord Goldsmith, admitting regime change would be ILLEGAL;
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=457242005

bush administration Richard Perle; War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal

...influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal. In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London:

"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

Mr Perle, a key member of the defence policy board, which advises the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said that "international law ... would have required us to leave Saddam Hussein alone", and this would have been morally unacceptable.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html

Oh yeah, it was illegal; by US law, by international law. And oh yeah, bush lied.

[bpilgrim]

1. thats how i see it, too

I m glad he also mentioned Yugoslavia.

thanks for sharing

peace

[rpannier]

6. Can't agree with you

Doing what we did in Yugoslavia was the right thing. The UN has dug up the remains of over 30,000 people that were slaughtered by the Serbs. If you think we were wrong I suggest you ask Simon Weisenthal who said to Pres Clinton that was going on in Kosovo was as bad as what went on in Nazi Germany. I also suggest you fly to Kosovo and ask the widows of the men who were murdered or the women who were raped by Serbian soldiers. Then come back and tell me you think what we did in Yugoslavia was wrong.

[bpilgrim]

12. Noam Chomsky on Yugoslavia

Print Interview, April 8, 1999

Max Boehnel: Let's decode some of the language we are hearing around this war. Can you comment on the use of the terms humanitarian crisis, genocide, and ethnic cleaning as they are being applied to Kosovo?

Noam Chomsky: Well for starters, the concept called "humanitarian crisis" has a technical meaning, which does not have much to do with what might reasonably be assumed to be the defining criteria of the term. The technical meaning of humanitarian crisis is a problem somewhere that threatens the interest of rich and powerful people. That is the essence of what makes it a crisis. Now, any disturbance in the Balkans does threaten the interest of rich and powerful people, namely, the elites of Europe and the US. So when there are humanitarian issues in the Balkans, they become a humanitarian crisis. On the other hand, if people slaughter each other in Sierra Leone or the Congo, it's not a humanitarian crisis. As a matter of fact, Clinton just refused to provide the relatively puny sum of $100,000 for a peace making force in the Republic of the Congo which might well have averted a huge massacre. But those deaths do not constitute a humanitarian crisis. Neither do the many other deaths and tragedies to which the U.S. directly contributes: the massacres in Colombia, for example, or the slaughters and expulsions of people in southeastern Turkey, which is being carried out with crucial support from Clinton. Those aren't humanitarian crises. But Kosovo is a crisis because it is in the Balkans.

Now the term genocide, as applied to Kosovo is an insult to the victims of Hitler. In fact, it's revisionist to an extreme. If this is genocide, then there is genocide going on all over the world. And Bill Clinton is decisively implementing a lot of it. If this is genocide, then what do you call what is happening in the southeast of Turkey? The number of refugees there is huge, it's already reached about half the level of Palestinians expelled from Palestine.

If it increases further, it may reach the number of refugees in Colombia, where the number of people killed every year by the army and paramilitary groups armed and trained by the United States is approximately the same as the number of people killed in Kosovo last year.

Ethnic cleansing, on the other hand, is real. Unfortunately, it's something that goes on and has been going on for a long time. It's no big innovation. How come I'm living where I am instead of the original people who lived here. Did they happily walk away?

more...
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XT00-lCHQ7sJ:www.zmag.org/chomsky/chomintyug.htm+zmag+yugoslavia+chomsky&hl=en&client=firefox-a

peace

[rpannier]

13. Odd that he would think it was an insult to the victims of Hitler

As Simon Weisenthal spent time in a concentration camp. In addition to which I used the term Ethic Cleansing.
As to his casual dismissing of the saerious nature of ethnic cleansing, I will reiterate what I said before, "Go and ask the widows and women who were raped about it."
If I have to pick between siding with Simon Weisenthal or Norm Chomsky I'll pick Mr. Weisenthal.

[bpilgrim]

15. the biggest threat in todays world is US.

trying to cover our MASSIVE death and destruction up with the propaganda of 'humanitarian' intervention is the real insult.

i don't give anyone a pass on cures worse than the disease, no matter the party. look at were it has gotten us today for that kinda folly which the world can no longer afford.

peace

[rpannier]

18. Ahhh...

so stopping ethnic cleanising is now a disease is it? I see.
You can hide from it all you want. Try getting out in the world and living in it sometime.
I have and still am. I was MI in the army. I was in Prague working for OMRI from 1994-1996.
I am now working for the Korean Government and have since 1997.
The greatest disease in this world is turning a blind eye to tyranny and greed because it's easier. There is a tremendous amount of evil and not all of it can be contained within its borders. Military intervention into other countries should never be taken lightly. Because of our intervention the majority of the killing in that region ended. Milosevic is in the Hague and Yugoslavia, as well as the rest of the region, is better for it. Tensions decreased dramatically.
I look at what it got us in SE Europe and I can say it's a lot of positives.

[bpilgrim]

20. whats that, Klingon for "Errand of Mercy"?

"When one Klingon dies, a thousand Organians will be executed."

anyways...

i happen to take the long view of history in helping me to decide what is really going on from the cheap seats and i have come to the conclusion that since wwII (and before but not as an empire) the empire acts only in it's own SELFISH INTERESTS so i don't buy into the 'Errand of Mercy' role for our empire, sorry.

btw: thank you for your service :toast:

xBM3/pilot rescue swimmer & world traveler ;->

peace

[rpannier]

23. Peace to you too

It has been a pleasure talking to you. Open and free debate is always good.
BTW I am impressed with your resume. Is xBM3 a kind of plane? To be honest, I've always wanted to learn to fly planes. So I'm curious.
I know I've totally changed the topic, but I've had my say and you've had yours.
I like to end these kinds of conversations on a positive note.

[bpilgrim]

24. thank you rpannier

xBM3 = 'x' as in former, Boatswain's Mate 3rd class on the USS White Plains AFS4 (the orient express)

it was a pleasure chatting with you, too :toast:

peace

[rpannier]

25. Your service is also appreciated

My apologies for the "You should get out in the world" crack. It's obvious you have.

[leesa]

19. Does Mr Weisenthal have a problem with Muslims? Just asking.

[rpannier]

21. Since it was Muslims that were being ethnically cleansed

in Kosovo and Bosnia-Hercegovinia I'd have to say that "No, he doesn't have a problem with them." He was telling the President to save them.
But, it's a fair question to ask. No sarcasm meant in the reply if it sounded like I was being such. It's 11:50 here in Bucheon and I'm kind of tired.

[Festivito]

10. War in Yugoslavia violated the UN Charter.. how?

If, if it did violate the charter, certainly we went into Yugoslavia with most of the important nations of the world. Not just a coalition of the BILLING and needy of attention as countries go.

On cross-examination, Navy prosecutor Lt. Jonathan Freeman elicited testimony from me that the US wars in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan also violated the UN Charter, as neither was conducted in self-defense or with the blessing of the Security Council. Upon the conclusion of my testimony, the judge said, "I think that the government has successfully proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."

This smacks of Dem bashing. Trying to placate stupid CONs by giving Clinton a jab.

[bpilgrim]

22. as neither was conducted in self-defense or with the blessing of the SC

On cross-examination, Navy prosecutor Lt. Jonathan Freeman elicited testimony from me that the US wars in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan also violated the UN Charter, as neither was conducted in self-defense or with the blessing of the Security Council. Upon the conclusion of my testimony, the judge said, "I think that the government has successfully proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."

hope that helps :hi:

peace

[stevietheman]

31. Disagreed... intervention in Kosovo *was* self-defense for Europe.

Clearly, Yugoslavia's ethnic cleansing incursions into Kosovo were provocative to the region and if they were successful, would have caused great instability that most likely would have led to wider conflict. The call to strike Yugoslavia was absolutely correct.

Sometimes, war is the only answer. Sad, but true.

And Afghanistan was U.S. self-defense clearly, so what's up with that?

However, I certainly agree that the Iraq invasion was illegal and unjustified.

[Festivito]

33. Yes, certainly an ongoing genocide is worse than a 10 yo killing field.

That's just somebody's testimony that has no bearing in a case, and therefore, even if it's an outright lie, there is no perjury.

The ONGOING genocide required a defense. Has the SC EVER sanctioned a war? Why would they?

[stevietheman]

36. You're right... SC isn't needed to sanction actual self-defense.

And NATO, the bulk of which is European, was defending itself. Further genocide in their backyard, especially given the earlier atrocities in the Balkans (most pronounced by the Serbs), had to be stopped cold before a wider regional conflict would be sparked.

[xchrom]

2. good.

[acmejack]

3. Ya think?

to the Hague with his war criminal ass! 2037 reasons for us to send him, >100K reasons for the Iraqis to be glad to see him there. I really want these fuckers tried in the International Court, whether they recognize it or not.

I believe it is the only way the American people can begin to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the world.

[rpannier]

4. Disagree about Yugoslavia

It was a war to stop ethnic cleansing. To those who wish to say what we did was wrong my suggestion to you is to..."Fly to Kosovo, go and see the remains of the 30,000+ corpses they dug up and then talk to a Kosovar about it."

[librechik]

27. me too- that was a NATO thing, not US led.

if only they had gotten invlved in the Iraq disaster--it might never have happened. Fortunately they had the sense to stay out.

[Spinzonner]

5. Option for Shrub

Resign and stay in the U.S. and you will retain the protection of the nation.

If you have to be Impeached and removed from office, you will be turned over to the Hague

[LynnTheDem]

9. Could we have that "resign & stay in US prison..."

Thanks!

:D

[Ikonoklast]

35. It's all set up with Bandar already

before the impeachment trial begins, * will leave U.S. soil in the middle of the night and fly to Saudi Arabia to go into exile. Like Idi Amin.

[dutchdoctor]

7. Thank you for this good compilation

nominated

[LynnTheDem]

8. Thanks!

:hug:

[Lasher]

11. I agree with what you say about Iraq

But I don't think the invasion of Afghanistan was wrong or illegal. That war was, and still is, sanctioned by the UN. It was the right thing to do because the Taliban was harboring Al Qaeda, who attacked us.

Too bad Dubya was so obsessed with the gospel according to PNAC, he let Bin Laden and most of his followers get away in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan.

[berni_mccoy]

14. Can we Impeach Now?!?!?!?

[indepat]

16. Although the Iraq invasion was illegal, it was the right thing to do

in the neocons' eyes?

[indepat]

17. When I wrote my local RW rag asking them to explain how the Iraqi invasion

differed in principle from the German, Italian, and Japanese invasions in the 1930s and why Justice Jackson's pronouncements at Nuremberg as to what constitutes war crimes were not applicable here, their response was to block my e-mails. Think I will mail them a copy of this phenomenal post.

[pberq]

26. Nominated - outstanding post!

It seems like they knew it was illegal and have planned all along how to deal with any attempt to hold them to account.

Getting that Supreme Court Judge in place is one of the last pieces. In any case, if things get out of hand they can always create a crisis and then declare martial law.

[Floogeldy]

28. I have argued this from the beginning

And * HAS committed an impeachable offense.

Article VI of the US Constitution states:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;"

* violated both the Nuremberg and UN Charters by invading Iraq and, thereby, violated the supreme Law of the Land.

[EuroObserver]

29. Hi LynnTheDem and others: I'm working up an essay

on this and related issues, a first draft-of-a-draft of which is posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1901392&mesg_id=1903073

I'd much appreciate any contributions and comments...

[EuroObserver]

34. No comments so far. Many thanks n/t

[oregonindy]

30. cool!

[Hissyspit]

32. Great catch, Lynn, not that we needed the Lt. Cmdr. to affirm it for us.

But he is a judge, so it carrys "weight." (Not sure how I missed this back in May.)

Lately nominated.

[ROH]

37. K&R (n/t)