Repukes today saying how oil is abiotic...

[Deja Q]

Okay. So why the need to drill Alaska anyway (which I'm all for at this point)?

Why the need to go to Saudi Arabia and other countries?

Or Venezuela?

If it's abiotic, where did it all go during the millions of years it's been developing? I mean, the Earth is not going to realize "*BURP* I'm full, no need to make any more for a while", now is it?!

And even if it is and the hydrocarbon process is regenerative, it is not replenishing fast enough.

I hope it's not abiotic because these corporate vermin out to exterminate us will get to live off of that. They made the mess yet they won't fix their mistakes and greed.

I don't know.

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. As long as you're asking questions:

When they remove the oil, what do they put in its place? Do they leave behind empty caverns? Has there been any seismic abnormalities in areas where they've drilled for oil?

[cornermouse]

5. I've been wondering about that too.

[sweetheart]

6. replacing it with CO2

It seems the new vogue will be to "sequester" co2 in to old oil wells,
and in future generations, they can breathe freely in the knowledge that
all those dangerous gasses are kept below ground.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Without really understanding the science,

what you described reminds me of something Jeb Bush tried to do in Florida. The ejit actually proposed to inject semi-processed sewage below the aquifer. I don't remember all the details, but he felt that because there was no oxygen down there, that bacteria would naturally die off.

This should have been a harbinger of things to come.

[northzax]

7. usually water

or saline is used to help force the oil out as the pressure equalzes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Sooo...how much oil do you suppose has been removed in the

last 50 years? Do you suppose it's enough so that this melt down we're experiencing due to global warming, may just have come at a timely moment?

[northzax]

38. I'm afraid I have no clue

what you are talking about.

Let's go with the USGS's assessment of Global Oil Endowment (the grand total of oil avaliable on the planet) in 2000, the most recent formal assessment, the USGS predicted a total of 3000 billion barrels. Since 1920 or so, global oil extraction has been 900 billion barrels.

a barrel, is, of course, 42 gallons for some strange reason. So that means 3.78 X 10^13 gallons of oil have been extracted from the earth. Even if every single gallon was replaced with an equivalent amount of water, it's a drop in the proverbial bucket.

another calculation shows that this is 1.43 x 10^11 cubic meters of water. the Ocean surface, on the planet, is roughly 3.61 x 10^11 kilometers. So if the entire mass of oil extraced from the planet is replaced by water, the sea level would drop by .39 meters. Only a fraction is actually replaced, maybe 5 percent (.39 * .05= .02) so we're talking about 2 centimeters. that's a lot of water, but not really, in the global scheme of things.

please note, many of these numbers are assumptions based on other research, it does not take into effect increased evaporation or other water issues. and I think the math is right...

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. My mistake. I put the decimal in the wrong place.

:-)

[northzax]

40. tsk tsk tsk

you lose half credit for not keeping your units in order. :)

[Jacobin]

8. Oil isn't in caverns

Its dispersed in sandstone sediments.

It is a minority view, but there are some geologists, mostly in Russia who actually explore for oil based on the abiotic theory and have had success.

There is one field in the Gulf of Mexico that appears to continually be re-filled and geologists can't figure out where its coming from using the normal biotic theories of how oil is formed.

I googled this issue a few months back for some reason and read up on it. Its pretty interesting, but not a widely held view in the U.S.

[Deja Q]

16. The will it up with water, or so I heard.

Water weighing more and all that...

[eallen]

29. Often there is water below the oil, pushing it up.

[kahleefornia]

2. well, it's biotic when you burn it

and every living thing sucks the exhaust into their lungs.

[eallen]

3. As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter how oil originates.

Geologists look for porous strata of sorts that are known to carry hydrocarbons, that are capped above by non-porous strata. Exploration companies drill down through the cap. They either find oil and gas, or they don't. Reservoirs produce then decline as the hydrocarbons they hold become less concentrated, and water beneath rises.

Even if oil is abiotic, what difference will that make to where and how it is found? As far as I can tell, the answer is, hardly at all.

[pitohui]

9. it would affect the distribution of oil

many in the the former soviet union once held to the abiotic theory of oil formation because of their large reserves in pre-cambrian strata

we now know that there was a great deal more life on this planet before the so-called cambrian explosion & the abiotic theory is no longer required to explain these reserves

i'm satisfied the abiotic theory is outdated but it wasn't originally dreamed of to placate idiots, there was once an actual scientific question at stake, it's just that the question has pretty much been settled

the flat earth society is still around too :shrug:

[Jacobin]

14. One field in the Gulf of Mexico keeps filling back up

That's how it matters.

[eallen]

28. That's complex subterranean structures, not oil creation...

Even if oil is abiotic, geologic processes are not that fast. If a reservoir is refilling, that's because it connects to another reservoir that replenishes it.

The formations below can be every bit as complex as the surface formations we see. That causes sometimes strange behavior of the fluids beneath. I'm not at all surprised that some reservoirs tap other reservoirs and replenish themselves. I don't think that much changes the overall exploration and reserves picture.

[BiggJawn]

33. That reminds me of a story when I was a boy...

This guy was digging in his back yard and "struck" GASOLINE. Not crude oil, but Sunoco 260 Premium, the blue stuff.
Dipped it out by the bucket-full for his cars and all his friends.

Well, the fire department was concerned, what with the possible fire hazard and all, so they went looking for The Source.

A gas station up the hill had a leaky tank. He had dug into a vein of sand that was connected to the tank.

[phusion]

4. abiotic?

Which means not from biological sources?

bahaha

What's it made from, then?

[Jacobin]

11. Here's a pretty good discussion of it

"OCTOBER 4, 2004: 1300 PDT (FTW) -- For the past century or so, the biological origin of oil seemed to be the accepted norm. However, there remained a small group of critics who pushed the idea that, instead, oil is generated from inorganic matter within the earth's mantle.

The question might have remained within the limits of a specialized debate among geologists, as it has been until not long ago. However, the recent supply problems have pushed crude oil to the center stage of international news. This interest has sparked a heated debate on the concept of the "production peak" of crude oil. According to the calculations of several experts, oil production may reach a maximum within a few years and start a gradual decline afterwards.

The concept of "oil peak" is strictly linked to a view that sees oil as a finite resource. Several economists have never accepted this view, arguing that resource availability is determined by price and not by physical factors. Recently, others have been arguing a more extreme view: that oil is not even physically limited. According to some versions of the abiotic oil theory, oil is continuously created in the Earth's mantle in such amounts that the very concept of "depletion" is to be abandoned and, by consequence, that there will never be an "oil peak."

The debate has become highly politicized and has spilled over from geology journals to the mainstream press and to the fora and mailing lists on the internet. The proponents of the abiotic oil theory are often very aggressive in their arguments. Some of them go so far as to accuse those who claim that oil production is going to peak of pursuing a hidden political agenda designed to provide Bush with a convenient excuse for invading Iraq and the whole Middle East."

More:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100404_abiotic_oil.shtml

[Bushwick Bill]

37. More from FTW - A Thorough 3-Part Debunking

Send these links to those freeptards

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/102104_no_free_pt1.shtml
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011205_no_free_pt2.shtml
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012805_no_free_pt3.shtml

[Ezlivin]

41. What sort of unreal world do economists live in?

The concept of "oil peak" is strictly linked to a view that sees oil as a finite resource. Several economists have never accepted this view, arguing that resource availability is determined by price and not by physical factors.

What part of finite do they not understand? Do they think that just because it's needed that it will magically appear?

[pitohui]

13. where did methane come from before we had cows to fart?

:-)

the question wasn't always as stupid as it sounds in 2005, see my other post upstream

[phusion]

15. decaying plant matter? n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. That is the most childish and naive thing I have ever heard.

[Jacobin]

12. Actually, there are some some legitimate geologists

who ascribe to this theory, although its a minority position.

In Russia, most geologists ascribe to this theory.

[Deja Q]

20. I believe there is a grain of truth to the concept, but...

but... while repukes are grinning saying it's renewable, none of them even wants to admit it's not replenishing fast enough.

And repukes say only liberals make their stances on "I feel".

It's funny to observe people. They often are the same as those they critcize. And I'm just as bad at times too, but it's more fun to see them stumble.

[The_Casual_Observer]

23. Come on, oil is a carbon based substance. It isn't like salt

It had to come from organic matter.

I'll change my mind when they find oil on the Moon.

[Jacobin]

27. Oh, I know what you are saying

The possibility that this is real is no reason to ignore the problem.

I wasn't talking about the political implications, just the scientific interest in that possibility.

[punpirate]

21. And a lot of Russian geologists also...

... think it's made from dead dinosaurs... that was a prevailing opinion in Russia prior to the `50s, as I recall.

[screembloodymurder]

34. Minority of one.

A very, very small percentage of legitimate geologist believe in this theory. If all you have to do is drill deeper, why haven't the Chinese, Japanese, and American big oil just done it?

[Deja Q]

18. Blaming me or the repukes?

I'll admit I am often naive, but I'm just the messenger for once. :7

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. Not you!

[Lisa]

17. excellent point, HypnoToad ...

"And even if it is and the hydrocarbon process is regenerative, it is not replenishing fast enough."

You put your finger on it, perfectly -- our record, as far as "regenerative" types of resources are concerned (groundwater, forests, fisheries, etc.) pretty much sucks. "Abiotic oil", if it were true (and most geologists doubt this), would not solve this problem.

Even when there are definite cause-effect patterns and known quotas ("if we overpump the aquifer, the water table drops ... if we catch more than XXX salmon per year, the run size diminishes), we don't seem to be able to come up with long-term, equitable management strategies.

[Deja Q]

19. And all due to greed and lack of control. And for the stinging commentary:

And if you ask me, I'd rather have been born in a country that did regulate its resources than to be born in the final age, right at the cusp of its demise.

[Lisa]

25. and if the resource regulation is actually part of the culture ...

... it doesn't have to involve big government, or top-down enforcement, or things that most people in the US would feel uncomfortable about. A lot of aboriginal groups figured out fair ways to distribute resources -- it was done through ridicule of greedy or inconsiderate actions. In fact, native Americans don't have a monopoly on these practices. My mom was taught how to harvest clams by an old lady from the eastern seaboard -- "you must leave the babies, and don't fill up your entire sack even if there seem to be a lot".

[Ksec]

22. So they dont really know how oil is made?

What a bunch of dumb fuks.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. All of them? Their leadership? Just a few nuts?

Surely you can't mean it's noe an official Republican position, like "taxes are bad".

[Ganja Ninja]

32. It can't be abiotic.

Remember the earth is less than 10,000 years old according to the great scientific minds of the right. And even if it was abiotic it wouldn't matter because the rapture is just around the corner and there won't be enough time for it to be replenished.

[baldguy]

35. If the oil bastards found an unlimited supply

They'd stil say there's a shortage & charge an arm & leg for it.

[hatrack]

36. More magical thinking from the party of Unmitigated Bullshit

Why am I not surprised? Why am I not surprised in the slightest?