I am so sick of DU hating on doctors (DU bigotry)

[Bread and Circus]

I am a doctor.

I grew up on welfare.

I used free lunch tokens a kid.

I was fed on food stamps.

I was insured by medicaid.

I was homeless at times and lived in subsidized housing at others.

I put myself through college and medical school working and taking loans.

I graduated 3rd in my class at a major university.

I went into family practice.

I started my own medical practice in the town I grew up in.

I worked hard to get where I am and I work hard to take care of my family.

That's my story...

And yet...

As a progressive, anti-war, pro-environment, pro-choice,
anti-death penalty, pro-fair trade, pro-labor, independent
who gave over $4000 to Democrats in last election cycle...

I feel despised on DU.

I am calling DU a bigoted place.

I am sick of it.

Get a clue.

Do you need links to the various "doctors are pigs" links to prove my point?

[meisje]

1. Link Please....Yawn

[meisje]

82. I'll take those links any day now?

[meisje]

84. Jeez, this is like waiting at the doctor's office!

[elehhhhna]

108. lol he must be MY doc.

[Connie_Corleone]

2. What are you talking about?

Provide a link for an example.

On edit: Thanks for stereotyping all of DU as being bigoted towards doctors.

:sarcasm:

[whatever4]

49. Not to butt in, but, I think that's just silly

Why does he need a link to ask to examine a particular prevailing point of view?? If it is HIS perception that view prevails here, why in the world does anyone want to ignore it? Don't we care what he thinks? Why don't we care if he thinks that, what if a thousand people think that, what if twenty thousand people think that??

Too silly. He's got a valid point; picking on the elite, more wealthy is quite the thing to do here. I fight that battle constantly.

Dear doctor, I'm sorry, but I have to say, this is the shape of things to come. We're going to move away from this fascism to a socialism, and then, there will be NO pride in accomplishment or personal gain. If you got it, and other people don't have it, you must have stolen it and surely you don't deserve it. An extra house, and extra car, forget it.

Gee, by the time I finish this the thread will probably be locked. And, another issue left unresolved, feelings unchanged, opinions unshared. So, must hurry.

This is the direction DU is going, and it's the direction our nation is going. Be prepared to sacrifice, any time someone walks along and says you have something they don't. Doesn't matter if you worked hard for it, worked twice as hard as anyone else, or sacrificed other things to attain a goal. To them, YOU are selfish, YOU have more and it isn't fair, and no, there will be no pity for you.

It's the way of our world now, as I see it, and I think we'd better get used to it. Be prepared to own nothing. My very cynical opinion. Hey, I'm improving, I wrote that whole mess without spelling errors. For me, a milestone!

[Connie_Corleone]

53. What's wrong with posting a link for an example?

I haven't seen the doctor bashing he's speaking of. It would be helpful for him to provide a link so I can see what he's talking about.

I don't read every single thread on DU, so it's not SILLY to ask for a link.

But, since you think it's so SILLY to ask for a link for reference, then it's SILLY to generalize DU as being bigoted towards doctors when there are plenty of us here who haven't said a damn thing against doctors.

[whatever4]

57. No, I don't think it's silly to ask for a link

but I think it's silly to insist on a link, to a person that has PERSONALLY had to deal with the issue, has their OWN story and very strong feelings about it.

I think it ought to be enough. Links or not. I think you guys were slamming.

If you'd have done it to me over an issue, you'd have gotten a lot more than this, I promise. It's been rude, over someones hurt feelings. NO reason for it. NONE.

It does not help our cause. He has an opinion. He has life experience. Respect it.

[Connie_Corleone]

61. So, I can post a thread saying DU is bigoted towards black people,

and not give examples?

Uh, okay.

[whatever4]

67. Yeah, and when people put you down for those strong feelings

you'd understand what I'm talking about.

This is his perception, and if we can't value that, as much as we value many of the other pure feelings we throw around here, we're useless. With or without links.

If you were a black person, and posted that, and heard all this "links" stuff, might you feel a little slighted? Wouldn't it be okay to discuss HOW you felt, and the ideas you percieve to be "other" than yours?

Would you really want a dozen people screaming at you for links before even asking you why you felt that way, as if they didn't care in the first place, and as if the point you bring up is meaningless?

[Connie_Corleone]

80. Well, I am black and I would provide links to what I'm talking about.

I probably wouldn't post a thread like that in the first place because it's not fair to generalize DU like that.

We're talking about accusations here.
When you accuse a whole board of being bigoted, you need to provide proof or shut up.

[whatever4]

89. He feels generalized himself

and I think this is his way of confronting that.

Subtle issues of discrimination and bigotry are typically difficult to confront. A lot of people won't come right out and say what they think. Hatred of the elite is a strong and growing trend, right or wrong, and I think he feels caught up in it. Unfairly caught up in it.

I say, it's my opinion, that he IS his own example, and we should listen to what he feels. It might be typical, it might speak to what a LOT of people feel. Seems like a bad idea to insult him with his lack of proof and write this off.

If he didn't feel that way, if it wasn't his perception...he wouldn't be here saying it.

[Connie_Corleone]

98. Using generalizations to denounce being generalized.

:freak:

Okay.

[whatever4]

103. look, we can defend jumping on him all we like

but what I saw was a lot of worry about links, otherwise we just don't care, and a lot of "that's bs" to go with it to defend DU. As if, without proof, his statement was meaningless. As if, without proof, Iraq really DID have WMDs? Come on. Opinions matter.

I think it was insulting, and it didn't help anyone. All it did was make some DU'ers feel better. And others worse.

[Connie_Corleone]

111. There's nothing insulting about asking for a link.

People ask for links all the time here. We don't ask because we're demanding proof. We're asking because we want to see some examples so we can discuss it. If he had provided examples, the thread would've been much more constructive.

If someone thinks asking for a link is insulting, then they have some issues that need to be worked out. I can't help them.

[whatever4]

116. There is when it's ALL we care about, over him and his opinions

In any case, he gave up. He left the thread.

Apparently he didn't have a link, or a will to find one.

Guess it's all okay then.

Guess he got his.

[Jackpine Radical]

214. I'm sick of all the prejudice on DU against Danes.

[Mojorabbit]

235. I agree with the op

Last night there was a thread that bashed doctors. It was not the first I have seen here. I almost posted to it but decided to blow it off.No need to raise my blood pressure.
My husband is a family physician from a lower middle class family. He came out of medical school with 60,000 in school loans which took us over ten years to pay off. Many years of lean times when he was starting out.

[DistressedAmerican]

54. Hey, He Offered And Has Since Hid And Refused To Provide.

I have not noticed these supposed posts as apparently haven't most posters to this thread. IF this really is an issue here at DU, I would like to know who is the source. Otherwise I am left thinking the Doc my be a touch oversensitive about it.

Hello Doc? Link?

[whatever4]

58. Yeah, but other people put up half a dozen links, so when ya gonna stop?

[DistressedAmerican]

59. When The OP Shows Me What Set Him Off And Caused Him To Accuse

us all of bigotry.

[whatever4]

71. Yes, when he can show you a link, you'll show you care. how generous

[The Doctor.]

225. I must be missing something...

Where are those 'Half a dozen links'?

Seriously, this is a big thread and I've scanned it for links and must have missed them.

[whatever4]

93. Are you kidding? I'd have bailed too

I'm really not out to insult you, or anybody. I have no vested interest in this argument, past a vested interest in DU.

But, had I been him, I think I'd have bailed too. Leave this thread and move on. Maybe start another. Maybe leave the board for a day. Maybe leave the board forever. Maybe leave off talking to any liberals for a while. Maybe leave off giving a damn what we think altogether.

Just because we didn't listen? I don't like it.

[whatever4]

101. See???

This was his last post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5252134#5252217

A lot of us aren't even trying to work with him or converse in a friendly manner. I'd have just bailed.

We just pushed someone away, someone registered on this board.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

104. I don't understand why it is so hard to provide context

you can't undesrtand someone's perception without being able to observe what they are perceiving.

a little context would have helped this thread a lot.

if i claim that you are a bigot and say mean things about me i would assume that you would like to know what i believe you said that would make you me feel that way. if i truly wanted to discuss the issue i would provide you with examples that cause me to preceive you as a big meany.

i feel the requests for context are totally appropriate if this matter is to be seriously discussed.

[whatever4]

113. Yes, but my point is he IS his own example

and given time, he likely would have provided examples. What I saw was him being jumped on, and I don't think it's fair, because in his position, he has valid and real opinions on the subject he discusses.

Links and examples would have been good, but I don't think it was fair to blow him off without them. It seemed very insulting to me, as if, without proof, you don't have anything to say.

But why? He's a doctor, he has something to say, who are we to believe he is wrong? Can't we just take his side for a second, listen to his feelngs for a minute, maybe get to the bottom of what he's saying, without being overly critical of his lack of proof? Maybe he has a dozen examples in the back of his mind, maybe to him it's SO obvious...he's insulted we even need insults. You know? Like proving racism in this nation. Do we REALLY need ANY poster here to provide proof racism exists right now? No. It's a given. Maybe he feels that way.

I don't know. But what I do know is, all I saw immediately were demands for a link, and it felt heartless and unfair. It looks like he abandoned the thread, the thread he started, and if we do that enough with enough tricky, insulting issues, we just aren't worth anything.

Now I think I'd better bail from this thread, I'm just repeating myself. Hope no one thinks I'm being rude and insulting, but all I really wanted to do pull some fire away from this poster, because I don't think the responses were fair or constructive when ALL they cared about was links.

[zanne]

129. I think you've lost your argument, whatever4. Suck it up. nt

[whatever4]

146. *snort*

Have not!

No, have I? I can't tell. Wasn't really my argument. Though, I did argue that he wasn't being handled diplomatically, and he did abandon the thread. So was I wrong? In it not being constructive for him, I think I was right.

He didn't put up a link. Okay. But I think his opinions on it were worth discussing without a link, because he is part of the overall example. DU attitudes toward doctors and how it's made him feel, and pervasive attitudes he wanted to address.

What more meaningful would it have been if he'd have been able to link half a dozen example of times posters had put down doctors? Maybe they didn't say anything meant to be insulting, maybe they didn't use any curse words or name calling. If it were a case of an attitude he perceived, even the words themselves might not mean the same thing to him as it did to the posters. It was the attitude that mattered, and, I think it would have been more fair to let him use his own examples. At least to a point. It wouldn't have been fair to characterize DU as being that way, but if it has been that way to him, it was worth at least some discussion. Not outright derision. Didn't seem fair.

Wouldn't be the first time I lost though, you're too kind to keep score ;) Peace :)

[Rich Hunt]

92. convenient scapegoat

They're well-paid professionals, just like some teachers and any other professionals who aren't corporate executives...I guess anyone who earns a healthy living doing something responsible is a convenient target for misplaced class hostilities.

Apparently in some people's minds, no one should make a good, secure living except corporate types.

[kath]

200. Why does everyone assume the doc is a HE?

There are plenty of she-docs.

Including me.

[tx_dem41]

220. In subsequent posts, he talked about his wife.

Now, I guess that wouldn't necessarily preclude a lesbian marriage, but I'm going with the odds.

[zanne]

205. Do you feel better now?

I've been told by certain people that I don't have enough sympathy for the rich. Even though I've worked just as hard as any of them, and tried to get ahead, I'm still poor. I'm SO tired of being told by wealthy people how much they DESERVE what they have because THEY WORKED HARD FOR IT. That just assumes that poor people don't work hard and consequently don't deserve to enjoy the same things you do. I think this argument is used like a salve for your conscience. You're very good at rationalizing greed. And yes, if we don't sympathize with you, we must be the enemy. So, why are you here?

[Jackpine Radical]

212. I see more straw men in this post than I did in all the front yards

in town on Hallowe'en.

[SeanQ]

247. LOL! How did this thread get out of the lounge?

I've been sticking to the LBN and greatest threads, and rarely have to wade through this anymore. For which I am extremely grateful.

There are nearly 80,000 members. By and large the fact we are here tends to indicate we have some strongly held opinions. It is functionally guaranteed that any strongly held opinion (other than perhaps our dislike for B* , PNAC & the GOP) will find someone here, or probably a few, that will heatedly disagree with you.

I'm a programmer and really enjoy technology and my geek toys. Without a doubt there are a few people here who think I'm contributing to the worlds ills based just on that knowledge. I also eat meat - don't get me started on some of my interactions with PETA. But frankly I don't give a damn.

I agree with 85% of what %95+ of the people here have to say, at least at a basic, functional level. I try hard to ignore flame-bait threads (they don't do any of us any good), try to remember to take three deep breath before I post (and usually manage to), and walk away from any thread/topic/poster that is obviously so entrenched in a view contrary to my own that no amount of discussion will bring a useful resolution.

I'm sorry the OP feels slighted in some way. If this thread had not made it to the greatest page, I would never have known they felt that way. But then, I've never seen a thread or even a post knocking doctors globally as a profession until now. Doesn't mean they haven't happened - just that I avoid those types of discussions when possible.

I'd recommend everyone else do the same. It's better for your health. ;) And for those who can't seem to help themselves. Please try to keep the noise down, OK? I have some reading to do.

[BeTheChange]

221. DU is not indicative of the broader world in many respects.

I used to think that. Then I got my ass off the computer and realized that sometimes, in the deep dark of night, predjudices and bigotry come out of the abyss of the internet that rival freerepublic.

Either:
A.) The radical on both sides feel safer to express that radicalism anonymously on a message board.
B.) The world we live in represses bigotry amazingly well. Cause if boiling inside of the majority of Democrats is some of the crap I see here, that is uber scary to me and it makes me question my affiliation with the party that has been sold as "progressive".

Hate will never be progressive. Jealousy isnt either.

[jeanarrett]

228. How do you know "he's" a "he?"

[Occulus]

239. Oh, you are so, SO very wrong...

I hardly know where to begin, so I'll relate my own personal experiences.

My mom tells me they- my parents, that is- knew I had lots of musical talent by the time I was five, and in fact were going to start me on the Suzuki violin method at that time. Unfortunately for me, my parents wanted a "normal" kid who would apparently have been nothing particularly special.

During my entire childhood, I was growing up thinking the entire time that I couldn't do anything right, didn't have anything to offer anyone, etc. This was because my parents had me playing sports instead, something I was terribly unsuited for. I hated it; they knew I hated it. The only reason I didn't come right out and tell them is because I didn't want to disappoint them.

Fast forward some years: when I was thirteen, I got a couple hundred bucks from my parents. Now, any "normal" thirteen year old would do something cool and fun with the money, or save it. Instead of either of those things, I asked my parents if they would pay for half of a piano I saw for sale in the newspaper.

A piano. *My* decision.

Shortly thereafter, I taught myself how to play it; by the time I graduated high school, I was playing through portions of Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue", neve having had any lessons at all. The reason I never had lessons is because, even though I asked for them, my parents wouldn't allow it.

At that same time, I was also in choir, performed in four musicals during high school, earned more solo & ensemble competition medals than I care to go and count at the moment, successfully auditioned for both the regional and state honors choirs, performed as first chair oboe in the invitation-only Michigan Youth Arts Festival, AND graduated with a 3.85 GPA, both National Honor Society cords, the Sousa award for musical excellence and an oboe scholarship to Western Michigan University.

Less than two years later, my parents having found out I'm gay, would yank all my school funding and any further help ad cause everything I had been working toward to crumble; they would claim poverty. No music career for me! I had to go to work, because before they kicked me out of school, they took me back into their home, and a job, after they forced me away from my education, was a requirement for living there.

My mom currently controls more than $400,000 in funds, bonds, and about twenty grand cash at all times.

The lesson here? Some of us work harder, and have more talent, than any three rich people or controlling interests (such as parents) put together, and ended up with nothing at all for all that effort. Years of work, down the drain, and for no other reason than open and devastating bigotry.

So, yeah, some of us do legitimately resent those who have less talent and more connections or "better" support. It's the effect of bitter betrayal by a system and a society that's supposedly rewards hard work.

I have some news for our doctor friend: you may not even know it, but somewhere along the line, somebody decided NOT to destroy you. Somebody decided NOT to do horrible things to you and your career. Don't have the hubris of thinking that it was all you. It wasn't.

It ISN'T all "hard work". Some of it is sheer luck. The people I get angry at are the ones who should know they got lucky in some way, yet lord their "deservedness"- whatever you want to call it- over the rest of us.

So, to answer you,sometimes it really isn't fair, or right, or whatever, and I no longer accept the "get on with it" and the "put it behind you" crowd. I'm owed a debt.

I deserve to be able to try and collect.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

can't find the "doctors are pigs" thread

What forum is it in? I did a search in GD and the Lounge and I can't find it.

Secondly I have no problem with doctors and I doubt most of DU does either.

[rooboy]

3. Physician, heal thyself. n/t

[Skittles]

4. WHO HATES YOU, DOC ???

do you want I should kick their ass? Some context is necessary I believe!

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

5. From a seven-generation physician family asks: WHAAAAT?

[wildeyed]

6. I probably do need the links.

I read a thread earlier that was about health care reform that probably cracked on some doctors pretty hard. But I don't think that the majority of DU'ers "hate" doctors. Or at least speaking for myself, I don't hate doctors.

I have my own issues with the health care system in this country, but I have the highest respect for my family's doctors. In addition to being highly competent in a clinic sense, they are caring and committed human beings.

[OKNancy]

7. It seems everyone gets their turn

Try not to pay attention to it, or better yet, answer posts that are hateful with a calm and reason that disarms the other posters who try to stereotype.

[Spinzonner]

8. Sounds like a place where people express their opinions

Even stupid or bigoted ones sometimes.

You want to be the censor of the ones that offend you ?

Allow the power to censor others and you grant it to be used against you.

Ignore it or protest it and perhaps consider the source and that maybe you are not the object of people's frustrations with a system which neither of you has much control over.

[papau]

9. DU is not biased against Doctors - but some DUers are - But congrats on

getting through the system.

In my family the loans required to become a Doctor for the latest Doctor were over $250,000 (and they had major family help undergrad).

That is nuts.

MD pricing is all about paying back the loans.

Plus any family - if there is a family - comes late in life.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I'm so sorry you have been trashed

I have read some threads here where people automatically assume that a physician is rich and cares only about his pocketbook and not his patients. I am the granddaughter of a doctor and good friends with another doctor, and, like you, neither one fit the stereotype that is, sadly, sometimes presented here. I feel for you, as I understand how difficult medical school is, much less all the other hardships you have endured in your lifetime.

Just know that there are some posters out there who support the efforts of physicians and who try their best not to make sweeping generalizations about them.

Bless you in your work and in your life.

[Bread and Circus]

16. Thanks, you get it perfectly.

You have noticed the same thing as my wife and I.

[annabanana]

83. I guess I've missed those threads...a tiny minority, surely.

Most of the posts I've seen about (or by) Doctors are thoughtful discussions about how best to get healthcare to those who really need it whether or not they can afford it. Also I've seen many threads about how Doctors are being squeezed by the HMO corporate model, and are being forced to see many more patients per hour than is good for adequate health care...

You'll have to provide more than one link to convince me that DUer's dislike doctors...

[LostinVA]

107. I've never seen anything like that.... just my perception

Lots of stuff about trashing teachers, though!

[mattclearing]

131. I thought most of DU was more anti-pharmaceutical companies and

against the current state of health care policy. I know I don't blame doctors for the current state of affairs.,

Even so, they are the true heroes, and the only real heroes in this country that seem to be paid well, unlike police, teachers, firefighters, farmers, truckdrivers, and social workers.

[mzmolly]

187. Right. My beef is not with Doctors but with big pharma and their

cozy relationship with drug companies.

[brainshrub]

How do DUers hate doctors? Got a link?

I hate the privatized health-care system in this country, especially the insurance companies, but I have no beef with doctors.

[Bluebear]

11. "I am calling DU a bigoted place." Is that why you won't donate, doctor?

Kidding, I kid the doctor!

[mzmolly]

238. You kidder you!

;)

[Lochloosa]

12. Huh?....

What are you talking about?:shrug:

I love my doctor....she is really cute. And what a bod!

[Coexist]

13. What in the world are you talking about?

[sandnsea]

14. Doctors vote Republican

Not our fault is it??? I've had occasion to deal with two doctors in the last month. One was very caring and concerned about my finances. The other said bring $350 or don't bother showing up, oh, and we don't do workman's comp. For my son who can barely walk and they know it. Doctors didn't used to be that way, but they are now. It's unfortunate that you are getting brandished with the anguish some are experiencing. Tough times for many people right now.

[foreigncorrespondent]

33. Gee! That is a sweeping generalization!

Not all doctors vote repuke.

[kikiek]

48. Vast majority of the doctors I know don't vote republican! They are

aghast at the healthcare system and on the frontline of the battle to improve it. For every Frist there are 10 Deans. Also as someone who does work with doctors I can tell you they work very hard and earn every penny they make. I am surprised that we have people willing to do this work still. The HMO's are trying dictate the care people receive and the meds they get. It is a continuous fight for them to provide the proper care for the patient.

[mondo joe]

62. Where did you get that stat?

[Swamp Rat]

15. OK, I hear ya, but I disagree.

:)

[cynatnite]

17. Get some links out...

I've never read any anti-doctor posts here at DU. I have complained about two of years ago and in the many times I've worked with doctors 99% were competent good people who worked hard and cared about their patients.

[htuttle]

18. I do not hate doctors...but have been accused of being an anti-dentite...

Hey, my sister was once mugged by a dentist. He charged her $400 above the deductable. It took weeks of negotiating with the HMO to recover any of it. The experience sort of turned my whole family against dentists.

It was sort of common in the town I grew up in for people to be anti-dentites, too. Just one of those cultural things. If a dentist had moved into the neighborhood, I'm sure people would have eventually gotten to know them and looked past the white smock and the drill...

[Horse with no Name]

25. I can agree with that

I am anti-dentite as well...because well...they just hurt.:silly:

[drbtg1]

79. Hmmm.....

Hey, my sister was once mugged by a dentist.

Mugged? Gee, no "DU hating on doctors" there (I know, I know, it's just one poster)

He charged her $400 above the deductable.

That makes no sense. Most dental procedures will cost above the deductable. Hell, most anything that any insurance would cover would be above the deductable.

It took weeks of negotiating with the HMO to recover any of it.

First, most HMO's generally don't cover dental. Do you mean dental insurance? Second, you admit that "It took weeks of negotiating with the HMO", not the dentist. So, it sounds like it wasn't the dentist's fault but rather faulty insurance coverage.

[ms liberty]

19. I don't hate doctors...

Not all doctors. There are some doctors I really like. I don't blame doctors for today's health care crisis, or for today's health crisis. But some doctors are crappy jerks, just like a certain percentage of every profession.

[sendero]

100. Pretty much sums up....

... my experience and opinion.

[raccoon]

119. Amen to that.

SOME doctors are arrogant jerks that have the attitude, especially toward women, "How DARE you question me!"

I remember an orthopaedic doctor who came into the examining room to see me. I must have been frowning, for he pulled a face such as you'd do to tease a pre-schooler. That was very disrespectful behavior. I wish I'd gotten up and walked out.

And it chaps me the way doctors will schedule 4 people to come in for an appointment at the same time.

But as Ms Liberty says, a certain percentage of every profession are jerks.

[DistressedAmerican]

20. Bullshit. Link Please?

Nice pointless broadbrush you have there...:puke:

[Horse with no Name]

21. Yesterday I am familar with two posts that dealt with physicians

One about Frist's behavior in the OR
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5241146

and another about defensive medicine
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5240777

I must have missed the one you were talking about. However...I have seen some members on here bash both docs and nurses (Of which I am one).
But then again, they also bash drinking stuff with aspartame, eating fast food, and shopping at WalMart...all of which I do.:)
Does that make me less of a Dem? Nah.
It doesn't even bother me.
Take it for what its worth and don't sweat the small stuff.

[drduffy]

22. I'm a doctor of the

clinical psychologist type. I haven't felt excluded particularly but I haven't seen the references made above and would be equally pissed if I encountered them.

I was a radical long before many on this forum may have been born (though not all by any means), lived on the streets in 67-68, was in SDS at Kent State and demonstrating near the 'grassy knoll' in '70. I mostly put myself through school too and have spent many many hours providing service to those in need but without $$. Part of all I do in my practice in a southern bible-belt town is pro bono. But I try to contribute to various progressive causes as well. And I try to remain active politically. A growing number of residents in my area are becoming more aware because of the many copies of 911 In Plane Site, Confronting the Evidence, and Outfoxed, that I have made and distributed. I also have a network of friends and family across the country to whom I regularly send email articles and op-eds (some found on this site) to promote the progressive cause. I recently converted my oldest sister (a chemist, reborn Christian) to the progressive view and now she is doing the same as me.

We all do what we can do. None of us should thow stones at any others on this list. We have too much work to do if we are going to help save this country.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

121. bravo, doc!

You are of my generation, and I applaud your efforts. I especially appreciate your last paragraph, because it is very very true.

[ClintonTyree]

23. Another persecuted "minority" here at DU............

last week it was Christians, this week it's Doctors? :shrug: So now ALL DUers are saying that "doctors are pigs"? I don't think so, skippy.

As I stated to the persecuted Christians last week, I spend a lot of time at DU and haven't seen any of these numerous examples of persecution you speak of. I'm sure there are cases of some DUers who have done exactly as you've said, but painting all DUers with that same wide stroke is disingenuous and damned insulting.

Holding all members of DU responsible for the actions of a few is disgusting. Perhaps if you'd PM'd these people that have so brutally assaulted your integrity you wouldn't have to post such broad generalizations. Did you alert the Mods to these affronts? DID you PM them and ask why they so grievously insulted you? Probably not, you'd rather insult all of us instead.

You're calling DU a bigoted place. :eyes:

You're sick of it. :eyes:

We need to get a clue. :eyes:

If you're so miserable here, leave. No one is begging you to stay.

[tx_dem41]

155. Actually, I would like him to stay. n/t

[The Doctor.]

219. I'M FED UP WITH DU'ers BEING PERSECUTED BY DU'ers....

Just because they post on DU!!!

I've been a DU'er for over a year and I can't stand that I'm SO PERSECUTED for being a DU'er and posting on DU by DU'ers who Post that THEY HATE MY KIND!!!



(oh yeah... almost forgot... :sarcasm:)

[crispini]

Uh, try being a TEXAN or a SOUTHERNER here on DU.

Everybody gets their share of poo thrown at them (or their group) from time to time on DU. Kind of not out of the ordinary. And, fwiw, I haven't noticed any anti-doctor bigotry.

Now, anti-health care system, YES. We pay far too much for health care in this country and it's largely because the system is set up in a for-profit manner. We need to push for socialized medicine.

[Bread and Circus]

29. Point well taken...

also, I am pro National Health Care - single payer system...

I forgot to mention that in my original post.

[crispini]

41. Dig this, my mom is going to France for a heart procedure.

They invented it there and it's the best place. She's had it done here and it didn't work. She actually managed to get the insurance to agree to pay for it by telling them that if they didn't agree, she'd go to the Mayo Clinic and have it done (which they would automatically pay for.)

Cost in France for the procedure + a WEEK in hospital? $15k.
Cost at the Mayo for the procedure + 1 day in hosp? $60k.

I'm going with her. Should be very interesting to get a firsthand view of the French system.

[Horse with no Name]

50. How cool is that

I expect the difference in the hospital will be fairly extreme.
But I know one thing...in Dallas I have worked with nurses from Australia, England, Canada, Africa, Phillipines, Thailand, and other points in between...however, I have never worked with a nurse from France.
I guess they are happy--which is good.:shrug:

[crispini]

130. I am so proud of her.

She got this idea in her head all by herself, did all the research on the internet, figured it all out, and planned the whole thing online. She now has dozens of friends in her "heart" forum. Since she is not naturally a computer person I think it's wonderful she was able to figure it all out. The internet really is a wonderful place.

[Joe Chi Minh]

252. I believe it's wonderful, particularly, compared to the UK.

People from here have got the NHS to pay for treatment and ops abroad, including France.

It's not that we don't have good doctors and surgeons. On the contrary, they tend to be in the forefront of criticisms of these corporatist governments. It's the waiting lists.

The leader of the British Medical Council or some such (I have the cutting stashed away somewhere) came right out and stated that they should openly state that they wanted to have people put down, euthanased, instead of just tacitly acting as though they wanted such a routine culling - to save NHS money. (Just as I wrote NHS, a talking-head on the box said "NHS". Happens regularly).

[Horse with no Name]

30. Ohhh I forgot about that particular persecution

So I have to edit myself to describe myself...

I am a proud Healthcare worker--aspartame drinking--fast food eating--Wal Mart shopping--Texas living DU'er!
:toast:

[acmejack]

40. Walmart? Horse tell me it's not so!

I magnanimously am willing to give you a pass on the fast food, aspartame and yes, even the health care work (shudder, you probably give SHOTS too!). But Walmart? OMG...

[Horse with no Name]

44. Well it is a necessary evil

Because it is an almost 2 hour drive to the nearest "big" city...which is veryyy red...and offers no progressive choices and over 3 hours to the nearest Costco.
When you live in a rural area of bright RED Texas, sometimes you gotta just bite the bullet and walk through the doors.
However, I don't go hog wild. Just buy what I NEED and get out.:shrug:

[crispini]

42. Wow, you're a nurse?

I had no idea, I just assumed you were in the media field since you are so expert in all of that. :D

[Horse with no Name]

45. Yep..almost 20 years now

Media was my life before nursing,lol.
It never really gets out of your blood.

[w8liftinglady]

254. Hehe-me,too

...well,I Do work out,but I love my beer and junk food...Been a nurse 25 years in the Dallas area.:toast:

[mtnester]

105. I will do you one better crispini - being from Ohio

I usually come prepared with a flame retardant suit (hell, I will even flame my own state)

As for doctors, there are good ones and there are bad ones, just as in any other line of work. For the most part, I have only met the good ones, with the exception of two who were bad. One of them was so bad it did (and still does somewhat) taint my opinion for a while, but that was from the trauma of the event resulting in the death of my mother through extreme arrogance of one doctor, and the other being a pediatrician who told me when my son was 10 that I had better watch out since he has an earring in his ear he is heading toward gayness and I ought to nip it in the bud.

I did, I switched to another pediatrician.

As far as the other episode, I harbor only extreme malice toward that ONE doctor, not every other doctor I meet. Just like I harbor extreme malice toward anyone else I know that caused my family some harm. That is only human. But I would never paint the broad picture that all doctors are bad, just like the OP should not paint the picture that all DU'ers are doctor bashers/haters.

[crispini]

124. O yeah.

I feel sorry for ya. :hi: I like OH, fwiw! :7

[tx_dem41]

149. Try actually having...

"tx" in your user name, Crispin! Oy vey, what was I thinking?!?

:)

[crispini]

193. Hee hee hee! Exactly!

[wryter2000]

209. Oh, hey

I hate the anti southerner threads and say so. I also hate the religion bashing threads, even though I'm an agnostic.

If you're talking about for profit HMO's, I'm with you. The profit motive shouldn't determine what kind of health care people get. :mad:

I work for a non-profit HMO, and I get my care here. I wouldn't go anywhere else. My husband died here last year (from an uncurable disease that no doctor on Earth could fix). He received excellent care, and it cost me $20 (yes, one 0) out of pocket. Anyone who disses my HMO gets a fight from me :). But the for profits -- they ought to be outlawed.

[Vinnie From Indy]

24. DAMMIT Jim! I'm Only A Doctor!

Is little boo boo bear cranky?

Kind of hilarious that you paint with such a broad brush Doc. Except for Drs. Mengele, Frist and Demento, I got no beef with Doctors as a group.

[DemBones DemBones]

76. What have you got against Dr. Demento???

Mentioning him with Frist and Mengele is totally unfair; Dr. Demento is far more professional and ethical.

:spank:

[KitchenWitch]

26. I have no issue with doctors!

Most doctors are decent human beings with care and compassion as their defining attributes.

[sandnsea]

27. Another denial thread

I love these threads. Somebody posts something on health care and greedy doctors almost every single day, but when somebody complains about it, total denial. Hysterical.

[DistressedAmerican]

36. Well I Will Ask You For A Link Then Since The OP Does Not Want To Provide

one.

If so common, it should be easy to find a few.

Link or links please?

[Vinnie From Indy]

46. Let's see how many extreme generalizations we can fit onto one thread

Between the bigotry claimed by the Doc as being a view shared by ALL on DU to the TOTAL denial observed by SandnSea, I think we have an outbreak "generalization flu".

[mondo joe]

78. I missed the OP saying "All on DU" share the view.

[annabanana]

91. hee hee

"By George, He's got it"

[EFerrari]

128. lol n/t

[foreigncorrespondent]

28. Gee, I am so sorry for this!

I haven't actually come across any threads like the ones you talk of. And just because I haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Unfortunately the world is full of bigotry, as is the Internet, and DU isn't the exception by any means. Sadly, there is all types of bigotry here.

There are a few bad apples in a bunch of really good ones. Don't let the bad ones give you a sour taste for the rest. If you do that, then those bad ones have won.

Be proud of who and what you are. You worked hard, and you earned the right to be proud. :)

[acmejack]

31. Some of my best friends are Doctors!

Seriously, I think there is a very high level of frustration with the increasingly out of reach costs of care. Lets face it, America's health systems have some extremely serious problems. An ever increasing number find themselves priced out of health care and they are naturally resentful.

I don't think it is a personal thing with medical doctors, but rather organizations like HCA and the rest of the profit mongers. There is a serious problem when fully 50% of the money is spent on health care administration.

[dweller]

32. DADU ?

doctors against DU ... sheesh.


dp

[Divernan]

34. I think there must have been some straw that broke the camel's back.

As the above posts indicate DUers like some of the doctors all of the time. There are some bad apples, as in every profession, but it is certainly unfair to characterize all doctors negatively on the basis of what a few do. I worked on professional licensure issues for state government, and I know that in every group of professionals - accountants, landscape architects, nurses, dentists, chiropracters, lawyers, etc., there are those who violate their professional code of ethics and have to be disciplined or may even lose their licenses. That's why every profession has licensing/oversight boards.

If you see a DU post indiscriminately trashing ALL doctors, per se, you should simply point out the "few bad apples" in every profession fact. Being a poster on DU gives you an excellent opportunity to correct anyone who does generalize criticism to a whole profession.

[Alamom]

35. I haven't seen the posts you're speaking of..

I have a low post count, but have lurked and read (here) for a long time and have not seen this. If I had, I would have posted.

My niece is pre-med, making it about the same way as you did. I think she will be a wonderful doctor because she truly loves and cares for people.

However, some doctors are pigs or worse....just as in any other profession, job or people in any walk of life.

I've seen several I wouldn't let treat my cats because the Vet we use is better qualified and more caring.

If there are posts like that, apply, "If the shoe fits, wear it".

I also know many wonderful doctors and they are an entirely different breed than the "PIGS" in the medical profession.


(Unwilling recipient of several chronic health problems that cause (some) doctors to act like pigs.)

[Gormy Cuss]

37. Here's the Rx for you, doc

Use the Ignore button. Once you can no longer see the handful of people who are flinging the broad brushed attacks on doctors, you'll be able to focus on the other more helpful responses.

No charge.;)

[H2O Man]

38. Who are the two that graduated above you?

In case we need a good doctor ......

[bowens43]

39. yes, you need to provide links to the 'docs are pigs' posts

[jus_the_facts]

43. "I'm sick of it...get a clue..."

.....there's more reason to hate on most Dr's these days than worship them...if you can't see why that is the case then I sure HATE IT FOR YOU that You feel so oppressed! :cry: :eyes: :nopity:

[DistressedAmerican]

47. Provide Some Links To Specifics Or Stop Wasting Our Time.

People have asked you repeatedly to do so. You pretty much offered to do in your OP. Why do I have the feeling that you had one bad isolated encounter that does not reflect DU?

Put up or shut up Doc.

[whatever4]

52. Other people have offered links now, so why don't you stop insulting? nm

insultling my spelling is fine though

[DistressedAmerican]

55. HE Offered To Provide Links. I Want To Know What He Is Talking About.

It was his broad brush accusation. I would like to see what set him off. When you offer to provide links but, then refuse to do so, it makes me think that the accusation if pure BS.

Doc? Link?

[whatever4]

64. so what

You're missing my point. There was no reason to slam him over this. So what if he doesn't have links. Other people have provided links since, but aside from that, he IS a doctor and has his OWN experience to share.

Why isn't it enough?

Why don't we care?

Why did anyone insult him, when, he already felt insulted??

Not good, not constructive and NOT fair. We always beat up on the elite on this board, and to deny it is to deny plain fact.

Here - let me bait one...

I'm a libertarian. I believe in the strength of the individual to gain what he wants, ethically, and that it is a good thing to do so.

Okay, who's first?

[DistressedAmerican]

72. It Was The OP That Asked The Question:

"Do you need links to the various "doctors are pigs" links to prove my point?"

Many of us have merely answered yes to that question.

Why so defensive about us asking for the proof that the OP offered?

I have no idea if the two links provided have any bearing on this person's feelings on the matter. I would like to see exactly what gove this poster that impression.

Why do you find that some sort of attack on elites?

I just asked for what was promised to "prove" the OP's point. Especially when the point in question is that we are all bigots.

[whatever4]

81. Don't misunderstand, links are good, insults are NOT

and that's all I'm saying. He was blown off unless and until he could provide links. I thought many of them sounded insultling, and while I can see defending DU, I can't see being so spiteful to someone who is already feeling insulted. He didn't provide a story, but, he is a doctor, he IS his own story. I agree it would have been good to see previous examples, but I disagree with how his feelings about said past vague instances were treated as meaningless.

I mean, he IS a doctor. His perceptions on this speak for themselves, and I don't think it was fair to ignore him without an example of what he was talking about, because, he IS part of the example.

[DistressedAmerican]

95. I Hear What You Are Saying. But, Asking Someone For A Link That Offered

to provide it as proof of a point is not an insult. Just because someone has an opinion, that does not make it correct. And when that person says that they will back up the opinion, the normal response is, "OK".

I do not know of the posts that the OP is referring to. I doubt that with all of the posting I have done here that there is a widespread enough undercurrent of "doctors are pigs" threads out there to justify such an impression. If there was I certainly would have noticed by now.

=======================================
Doc, I am sorry that you feel this way. I am sorry that whatever you read left you angry. However, I have never posted a word on any doctor besides Bill Frist. I'm SURE that most others have never said a word against them.

Please try to view whatever you have read in the far broader context of such a huge site. Weigh whatever was said against the entire site's contents. If you still think that this is a really huge issue for the site as a whole, perhaps you are focusing on too narrow a selection of posts to read.

I have read hundreds of thousands. In that tine, I may have seen something that attacks doctors. I do not recall. However, if you are still serious that DU on the whole "is a bigoted site", then I will be looking for the proof of that claim.

Hope you feel better about the whole situation soon.

[whatever4]

110. and I hear what you're saying too

"to provide it as proof of a point is not an insult. Just because someone has an opinion, that does not make it correct. And when that person says that they will back up the opinion, the normal response is, "OK"."

I would have asked for a link too, to ask why he thinks that, what brought about those feelings. But what I'm saying is, just because someone has an opinion doesn't make it incorrect either, and his perception may be wrong, but he IS a doctor, and it IS his perception. I believe that should have carried weight all on it's own. I believe we should have listened and appreciated his perceptions. There was no reason not to.

There was no reason to shut him down without them. That's all I'm saying. I think he was unduly attacked over lack of examples, when really, he is his own example. He spoke of his perceived bigotry on DU, and I know links and examples would have been good, but if those are his feelings, they're a valid enough example. I think so, anyway. Seems to me his feelings, right or wrong, are as valid and meaningful as any random insulting link he might have provided from another topic.

I didn't mean to jump in the fray, but I found myself wanting to tear people off him, defend him, and stop the insults.

[Coexist]

Those two threads are your only instances of the persecution of Doctors?

Give me a break.

Horse with no name - thanks for the links - I appreciate your providing them. OP apparently has no intention of doing so. I hope you enjoy your diet beverage at Wal-Mart! I don't shop there - but you are welcome to.

[MaineDem]

51. "Do you need links to the various "doctors are pigs" links ...?"

Yes, I'm afraid I do. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Celebration]

56. doctors, pigs

I did a search on this site for old and new threads with "doctors" and "pigs" in them. There was this thread, and some about various things--mostly non health care related, including a great one about the JFK assassination and the oil industry (say be glad you aren't an oil industry exec. on this board). There was a thread dissing drug reps (be glad you aren't a drug rep), and one about past experiments on humans that were immoral. I didn't really read most of the threads that I encountered because they weren't on topic for saying "doctors are pigs." However anyone willing to do the search might find the JFK assassination one quite interesting!! Oh, hey yeah I am southern and from a red state. Eek. And my dad was a doctor. And father in law.

I learned a lot from my search but it was about the JFK assassination. Glad I have my *star* now so I can search here, though I do it infrequently.

I have been personally attacked here for some of my posts. That goes with the territory--kind of like a red badge of courage. Haha. That is a better metaphor than chip on my shoulder (!!!??)

[seabeyond]

60. i didn't know du was bashing doctors and i read this site a lot. BUT

i am a business owner. i would like du to see the difference between a small business and the major corporations that are screwin people. i constantly hear how horrible employers are and how innocent and abused employees are. i hear often how business owners dont work, have too much money, are greedy and dishonest.

so i do have a clue what you talk

now...... i have a whole slew of issues with the medical field, doctors (though most all i have had i respect immensely) hospitals, insurance yada yada

[laureloak]

63. One thing I've learned from DU is to IGNORE certain attitudes.

Remember that sometimes those attitudes are planted by the opposition.

[bunkerbuster1]

65. I hate the usage of "hating on."

what kind of retarded English is that?

[MaineDem]

69. I have never heard that terminology

It was a new one to me.
:shrug:

[mainer]

198. could it be a regional expression?

[Pepper32]

242. It's slang

First used in the hip hop community.

Get with it! Wait, do you have a problem with that 'usage' also? :yoiks:

[bunkerbuster1]

248. I suspect it goes back to before hip hop

and I still say it sounds retarded. Like "painting out" or "changing out." It's adding words when they're not needed--it's filling space when you're fumbling for something meaningful to say, like an "um" or "uh."

The "on" is not needed. It's stupid to add it here.

And yeah, I hear all socioeconomic groups using similarly retarded English, and yeah, it annoys me.

yeah. um, uh-huh.

Ok, maybe not so much but you get my point.

[Pepper32]

255. Point to a credible source that suggest it was used before hip hop

I first heard the saying in the black community (more specifically the hip hop community), in fact I can remember it becoming popular when the show "Martin" was saying it all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slang_used_in_hip-hop_music
scroll down to see the phrase


If you think it's stupid, that's your opinion. Like A-holes everyone has one. :)

On edit:
1. hating

When one puts down the success or fortune of others due to jealousy.

See hater, hatorade
She is "hating" on me because I won the lottery and she didn't.
Source: Sonia, Mar 2, 2004
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hating

[mondo joe]

66. I've seen it too and I dislike it just as much. But it's not just

physicians - it's anyone who is believed to havve any economic advantage. Physicians, business owners, ivy league grads are all stereotyped as being republicans or uninterested in "ordinary" people.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. I am but a humble Resp. Therapist...but, I am sure I would have noticed

if there was any significant bashing of doctors. It would certainly have stood out to me. I would not say that there may not be some out of millions and millions of post. But, frankly I cannot recall seeing any. Although, I will take your word for it that there may have been some.

I just sincerely (and I do mean this) don't know what you are talking about.

But if there are individuals saying such thing, well what can I say, they should stop.

[mainer]

70. well, here's one link I just happened to see. And I wasn't even searching

It didn't take long for the topic to generate a few "evil rich doctors" posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1895886

[Douglas Carpenter]

75. well there are some...out of millions and millions of post

but, I don't see a trend and I don't think it represents an overall DU trend.

But those who engage in such broad generalizing should be ashamed of themselves and realize that they are a small minority here at DU.

[mainer]

87. It's perfectly predictable.

Every time someone starts a topic having to do with medicine or healthcare, there will almost always be a few posts about evil rich doctors.

If being a doctor is such an amazingly lucrative profession, why do women now make up more than 50% of medical students? Why have men decided to opt out? Maybe they've realized they can do much better financially by going to business or banking.

[Douglas Carpenter]

90. as you said

"a few posts".

[Rich Hunt]

102. well there you have it

There are always a few people around here who will use the well-paid as a convenient scapegoat. How sad, because being a physician is about as worthwhile a profession as any. I guess in some people's minds, no one should make good money outside of corporate America.

[Douglas Carpenter]

115. well, yes

My politics difinitely puts me on the Democratic Left, but I have no quarrel with someone making good money. Provided they vote and and support a progressive agenda O8)

[Lorien]

127. The GP's I know are all solidly middle class

making a five figure income. However, the GPs I know are also all Democrats who give their staff generous healthcare benefits and pay an enormous amount for insurance. It's surprising how little of that huge doctor's bill actually makes it to the doctor (specialists being a notable exception).

[ProfessorGAC]

133. You Might Want To Research That Further

Unless one reaches VP status there is no way that doctors make less than business or banking people. Look at the upper strata of incomes by profession, in the Statistical Abstract of the United States. It's available at any library in the country.
The Professor

[mainer]

183. All I know is, i never made much as a doctor.

Professor, I earn much more in my current nonmedical career than I ever did as a doctor. Maybe it's due to my amazing talent (tongue in cheek here) Or maybe doctors really don't make as much as the public seems to think they do.

M.D. income varies depending on specialty and geographic location. Yes, plastic surgeons make tons of money. But GP's in rural areas scarcely make enough to send their kid to college.

A survey of physicians reveals that abouy 50% of them want OUT of medicine, and would leave if given the opportunity.

[ultraist]

203. According the AMA, the average salary of general practioners is 200k

Specialists' average incomes go up from there, as you noted.

Of course, location makes a difference, as is the case for every profession. Cost of living is also very low in rural areas.

Doctors, on average, earn well above the median income. For MOST people, anything above the median, is considered a very good salary.

[mainer]

256. EXCUSE ME?

You got your information from WHERE? I've checked the AMA website (members only) and the most recent data I can find is below. These are median incomes for ALL physicians, including high-earning surgeons.


Please show me where GP's (primary care) earn an average of $200,000 per year.


Table 12 - Median Unadjusted Income of Physicians by Years in Practice-- 2000
e-mail story | print story
Years of
Practice Median Total Income Per Hour Income Per Visit
Males Females Males Females Males Females
1-4 $160,000 $120,000 $61.00 $51.80 $35.40 $28.40
5-9 $200,000 $129,000 $72.00 $59.50 $39.60 $29.50
10-19 $206,000 $125,000 $76.00 $54.70 $37.50 $31.70
20+ $180,000 $120,000 $70.10 $53.40 $37.60 $29.10
Source: American Medical Association Center for Health Policy Research. Chicago, IL.

[ProfessorGAC]

207. No Argument

But, what bankers and business people make is not tremendous either. That only happens as one approaches the top. And, in that case, it requires substantial abrogation of self, as in large companies, how you play the game is at least as important than HOW WELL you do what a company needs done to succeed.
The Professor

[Connie_Corleone]

226. 2 people bashing doctors on that thread.

How is that representative of DU as the OP suggests?

[jody]

73. You make a good point. Some DU members are naive and immature even though

they may be at an advanced age.

:toast: to you for sharing your background with those DUers who understand and identify with you. :hi:

[Punkingal]

74. Hey, just hang in there.

Being from the South, I have felt that way here from time to time. I don't like sweeping generalizations, and lumping people together. That is bigotry, IMO. But hey, Albert Schweitzer was a doctor! So there...you share a profession with one of the greatest human beings of all time! And congratulations to you for achieving your dream of being a doctor! :thumbsup:

[The Backlash Cometh]

77. Well, I really admire your history. But...

I lost 10 years of health due to one doctor's ill care, and the litany of doctors who followed who tried to cover-up his mistake.

In the end, they put the responsibility for his mistake on me. They asked, why didn't I question him? How could I question him if I relied on him for the diagnosis and the cure?

I find it hard to believe that at one time, I had reverence for doctors the same way that at one time society had reverence for priests. I don't anymore. The cynicism I learned from that bad experience applies to every profession. And now that I see how corrupt our government has become, I think that the degradation of professional careers was probably on the decline at the same time.

I think the best that you can hope for is that you will create a circle of patients who believe in you because they know you personally. But it's too late for many of us to believe in your profession based solely on one person's rather impressive history.

[sendero]

114. I had a similar.

.... experience - it did not cost me long term but it wasted a lot of time.

Doctors are human like everyone else and they make mistakes. Sometimes, the mistake is in spite of their best efforts, and it is a mistake anyone could have made.

Other times, it is a mistake borne of spending 5 minutes on a 30 minute problem.

I've learned from hard experience (not only myself but family) to question every diagnosis, research every drug prescribed, and take responsibility for my health. Luckily, I've found a doctor who does not take umbrage at my insistence that he convince me of a diagnosis.

The medical system in this country is spinning out of control, but the doctors are pretty much the last to blame. As I've said before here, my family doctor and I have had lengthy discussions - because of the squeeze the insurance companies have put on him (consisting of lowered payments and dumping more paperwork on his staff) he's not getting rich, in fact I think he is underpaid.

On the other hand, some specialists are raping the system IMHO. And don't even get me started on hospitals. But what can be done? We will not have a single-payer system until the one we have is in total shambles. And that might not be that far off.

[The Backlash Cometh]

135. Well, in my case, I fell into the HMO trap.

I couldn't stick with one family doctor because my husband's company would shop around year to year looking for the best HMO rates. So, I had to switch doctors when the plan changed. So one fateful year I had to leave my family doctor and go to a doctor that appeared to be nice, but who had hidden chauvinist tendencies. When I called him up each day after the third day of taking the medication because of agonizing pain caused by the pills, he would say the same thing in a huffy, impatient voice: I had to take the medication for two weeks in order to get over the illness. I was originally diagnosed with mycoplasma pneumonia. I only made it to the 9th day. I developed complications from the medication and after that, every doctor since misdiagnosed the symptoms in order to avoid tipping me off to the real cause.

I figured it out by researching the Grey's handbook. But, unfortunately, by then all kinds of things that I was predisposed for, like hypo-glycemia, were triggered and it was just too much. That, and raising two small children and a husband who was working for a company that was undergoing major cuts in the workforce.

I will never trust anyone again.

[Ravenseye]

85. Suck it up Doc

Every group gets slammed at some point here or there. I think most people on DU don't think doctors are evil or anything, at least not in general.

I bet everyone has been insulted or offended at some point on this board. I've felt attacked for being Arab, Non-Christian, Wanting more than 1 child, and on and on and on.

It's ok though. We're all equal opportunity offenders here. :) This is one big dialogue and sometimes you get a few pricks here and there. Just ignore em, or hone your responses against them to the point where they can't respond.

I don't despise you because you're a doctor.

[Douglas Carpenter]

96. now that I agree with...there are too many people who make

broad bigoted generalizations. Although they are in a minority.

People do get attacked unfairly for a number reasons.

Shame on them.

They really should stop

I do suspect that all of us (humans) have met someone of every identifiable group who lives up to the worst negative stereotype of that group; be they doctors or laborers, Arabs or Jews, male or female, gay or straight, black or white, American or non-American Christian or non-Christian or whatever. In our darkest and weakest moments, I suspect most of us have muttered, at least to ourselves, some unfair epithet about that group. But, when we put it in writing we should pause a moment and think.

[maximovich]

86. The Doctor Needs a Doctor needs a Doctor (nt)

[Surya Gayatri]

88. Maybe its the corrupt & inefficient system

that's the object of people's ire, rather than the practitioners? My bro is a doctor of the right-wing Republican persuasion. We have some knock-down, drag-out fights about universal health care, but I recognize his qualities as an excellent doc. Lacking in compassion, yes, but professionally irreproachable. BTW, your up-by-the bootstraps bio is really inspiring and admirable, Bread. SG

[Bridget Burke]

94. Take a pill & call us in the morning!

I know you have a stressful profession. Perhaps you ought to see a colleague who can prescribe something useful.

Rather than calling out all of DU, please respond directly & strongly to any messages that offend you. The offensive threads must have been long ago--a search reveals that your 2 recent posts had nothing to do with medicine.

I've worked with many doctors & found nearly all of them to be fine physicians & fine people. There are always a few creeps....

The problems with our health care system have more to do with the "suits" than the men & women in the white coats.

[CornField]

97. .

[William769]

99. Choose your Doctor wisely.

There are some great Doctors out there & then there are some that need to be burned in effigy.

We are all human, even Docotrs.

[kcwayne]

106. Hey Doc, when was the last time you had to negotiate your prices?

You provide a service, and are very, very, very well paid for it. Your customers don't question you on what you charge. You do not spend risk capital on advertising, or run sales. You are not asked by your patients to give them a special break, twofer deals, deep discounting, or make other financial concessions that jeopardize your financial ability to deliver your service.

My background, other than the medical part is the same as yours. I am very highly trained and knowledgeable on the products and services I deliver. And when I try to charge a price that provides my business with the ability to give me and my employees a decent wage, and a little profit to insure I can continue to buy materials, equipment, pay insurance, etc. many of the doctors I deal with, who live in lakeside mansions and have multi-million dollar investment portfolios insist that they can only pay a price that allows someone who is hiring illegal aliens and not paying taxes or using insurance coverage.

My clients don't treat me as a diety, or someone deserving unlimited amounts of respect. The fact that I spent years in school and got advanced degrees in engineering doesn't change this calculus. Why should it be any different for you?

In the past, doctors were treated with great respect for their life saving knowledge, and the fact that their primary interest was in providing help to the distressed. But medicine in this country has become a cruel and dispassionate delivery of a business service, with business as the primary initiative. It no longer deserves the adulation well deserved of a family doctor that rode 50 miles on horseback to aid someone in distress, and was paid with some vegetables and a chicken.

[mainer]

126. How often do you give away free products because it's expected of you?

Physicians are expected to provide a certain amount of charity care. My husband had a medical practice in a poor area of the state and he estimated that about 20% of his patients couldn't pay the bills, or were on Medicaid, with reimbursement so low that it didn't cover the cost of his paperwork. He took care of them anyway.

How often are you pulled out of bed in the middle of the night to drive through a snowstorm to see a client?

How many weekends did you miss away from your family because you had to make hospital rounds every Saturday and Sunday?

How many movies or concerts or restaurant meals had to be ended abruptly because your beeper went off?

How many phone calls do you get every night because one of your clients is in need?

How many tens of thousands of dollars in debt were you after eight years of schooling?

And did you finally decide (as my husband and I did) that it JUST WASN'T WORTH IT ANYMORE and walked away from your job?

[kcwayne]

163. You are truly clueless

I give away work on charity fund raisers regularly

I am pulled out of bed all of the time due to some emergency on a job, whether it be a sick or insured employee, failed machinery or a technical problem with a process. This week I am overseeing a job and working third shift, and haven't seen my daughter all week.

I don't make hospital rounds, but I work weekends all of the time and am away from the family constantly.

My cell phone vibrates constantly when I am out.

I only spent 6 years at univerties, so I was just slighly less in debt than you. But when I got out, I was paid $14,000 per year on my first professional job. After 10 years of industry experience I was making $55,000 per year. I averaged $37,000 per year over that time. I know a radiologist that made more in their first two years than I made in 10. Much better return. How did you do with your education invesment?

I have not walked away, because I need to make a living, and the amount of money I have made does not give me the option to make the decision you did.

[mainer]

192. You attacked doctors. And now you're OUTRAGED that you're challenged?

You threw the rock. And you think no one's going to respond?

I should HOPE people give to charity, as you do. But how many professions face the burden of giving twenty percent of their income in free services?

If medicine is such a great profession, I'd like to know why so many doctors are trying to flee it. And why so many young men are looking to other professions, to the point that medical school classes are now skewing female.

[kcwayne]

199. I am not outraged that I am challenged. I am bemused that after

landing yourself in the highest paid profession on the planet outside of sports or the highest levels of government, that you think of yourself as oppressed. And you act as though you are the only one out there that suffers inproportionately to your rewards.

Try pouring concrete, carpentry, food service, or any of the myriads of low paying, physically demanding occupations if you want to feel oppressed. Those people have compelling reasons to feel this way. Doctor don't. You have the financial flexibility after a few years to walk away. The minimum wage worker that has 2.5 jobs to eek out a living doesn't.

[mainer]

234. Nope, I don't feel underpaid at all anymore.

Because I no longer work as a doctor.

If you're going to bash doctors for being overpaid, why don't you go ahead and bash EVERYONE who earns over 100K? An amount, btw, that I never made as an MD.

[progressoid]

237. Huh? "highest paid profession on the planet"? Which planet are you on?

I can think of a few dozen professions that make more and actually live beyond 60 to enjoy their earnings because the stress of their profession didn't kill them.

And they don't just "land" in the medical field. They actually work to get there.

If you want to be pissed at someone in the medical field, try the world of pharmacy.

[Batgirl]

109. have a seat on the DU fainting couch

I spend several hours here each week but somehow managed to miss all the "doctors are pigs" threads.

I do have a certain compassion for those who accounce their feelings of being personally insulted or persecuted here. Some of the complaints are in fact valid, and some appear to be an overreaction. Then there are those where the hurting person insists on interpreting a few rude comments as being indicative of a sweeping, forum-wide bigotry.

Next step is a general public chastising and announcment of one's hurt and offended feelings. This is a pretty reliable way to get emotionally soothed and petted by good-hearted DUers hastening to reassure them that not *everyone* on DU is a cruel, bigoted jackass, so please, please give us a chance to show you how warm, giving and caring we are. It's almost a guaranteed consequence, because most DUers, even the tough snarky ones, are about as emotionally hardened as a jar of marshmallow fluff and have a hard time not offering comfort to someone who appears to be distressed.

It's not that I doubt that the hurt person is in fact hurting. It's just that sometimes, it looks like they are already carrying around accumulated feelings of being unappreciated, misunderstood, just plain wronged...and then playing it out here trying to get a kind of acknowledgement the real world, full of hurts and wrongs for everyone, will never provide us.

[IChing]

112. I feel like I'm at the doctor's office waiting to see the doctor with this

Post.
It's a long wait and I haven't seen him yet to give me a prescription to his links of discontent. I've read every post and still don't see the connection.

Wait, the nurse just said I can go to another waiting room.

I wonder if they have magazines in that room also?

[IChing]

123. My doctor's appointment was at 4:46 and signed in at that time.

It seems there are a lot of people in the waiting room ahead of me.
I wonder what time their appointment was for?
Oh well, might as well read the newspaper and see what's in the news.

[IChing]

132. I wonder if they will make me put on that little gown?

Why don't they have windows or interesting paintings in this room?
Damn my arthritis hurts....let's see, interesting, a magazine on golfing and how to improve my game. Oh and another on Yachting

[IChing]

137. Boy, wouldn't it be something to have a boat like that?

Why don't they have good music piped in?
Man, I wish someone would change that channel.
Who picked that station anyway?
Let's see what other magazines they have....Oh look, "We Magazine"
I wonder what Brad and Jolie are up to?

[Bluebear]

138. Hahaha! "Gofling" and "Yachting"!

OMG what a good catch. Talk about ordering magazines that only interest the house, not the customer!

[IChing]

141. Hey, Your'e not suppose to be in here are you?

This is my waiting room. Sorry, I'm cranky
I'll trade magazines with you, I've read all of these.

[Bluebear]

143. OK, here's a TIME from August 4, 2001

Ah, pre 9/11. An article about Condit and shark attacks. Those were the days.

[IChing]

151. Thanks, and by the way you have your gown on backwards

Nothing personal,
You can have Golfing Digest, Money Magazine and Yachting for the Time
Now, you better change that gown.

[Bluebear]

156. OOOPS!

:blush: Damn gown.

Who is that ultra-handsome guy who just walked by the room? That suit! Must have run him a grand.... oh yeah. Pharmaceutical rep.

[IChing]

177. The doctors in..but he doesn't look like my orthopedic surgeon

I go to for my arthritis and pain therapy (which is what I do in real life). He looks like he could be the real thing. Maybe he doesn't belong in this doctor's office that I have to go to.

[drbtg1]

191. As far as the aging of magazines in my waiting room goes...

...there is a wonderful gentleman from the local senior citizens center who comes to my practice 1-2 times a month to get magazines for the center. He started this and continues this task of his own initiative, not mine, but I'm happy to help out. Needless to say, at this rate, magazines don't age too long in my place.

It's funny how this post (#143), as well as post #132 and post #18, help support the premise of the original poster. I would think some folks might want to spend time trying to find historical posts that show some love and consequently refute the premise instead of posts that give ammo.

[IChing]

197. the wait for the doctor answer was a fact. So suck it up

As is my normal wait and experience of what I do at that doctor's office
. I must of hit a nerve with you Doctor-- (which is what my arthritis does to me)

Besides comic irony on the response time was what I thought this thread needed as a prescription to it.

This thread was purposely a flame baiting post by the OP.
hey, just put me on ignore...

[drbtg1]

208. I didn't say anything about the wait time for the doctor.

My comments in this subthread were related to comments about magazines.

No nerves were hit. After grad school, I've got thicker skin than that.

Most importantly, I'm sorry to hear about the arthritis.

[drbtg1]

180. I just renewed my waiting room's magazines last week

Here's the list:

Bon Appetit
Entertainment Weekly
Food and Wine
Gourmet
Harper's
Muscle and Fitness
Muscle and Fitness Hers
New Yorker
O The Oprah Magazine
PC Magazine
Premiere
Sound and Vision
Sports Illustrated
Sports Illustrated for Kids
US News and World Report

Sorry, no golfing and yachting magazines. You'll need to have that stereotype treated somewhere else.

[IChing]

186. Good magazines....you have

Those magazines are in my orthepedics surgeons waiting room. I was just recalling what I experienced every-time I have to go there.

"no lie".

He is the doctor I have to go through to get to my pain therapist.

My pain therapist has good magazines and I normally don't wait to see him.

[drbtg1]

202. Again, hmm....

Item #1: In post #132, you make a joke about doctors that embraces a stereotype that, at its core, claims a disregard by doctors toward patients. Some may consider that "DU hating", but we'll move on.

Item #2: In post #186, after complimenting my magazine selection (which I truly appreciate), you claim, "Those magazines are in my orthepedics surgeons waiting room."

In summation, you disregarded your personal experience in order to embrace a stereotype, all for a joke.

[IChing]

No, He really does have Golf Digest and Yachting Magazine

those magazines are in his waiting room.
Now you attack me?

doctor?

I gave you a compliment on your magazines not my doctors
Thank god, on you beside manners
You must not have many patients today in order to respond to my posts
or are they in your waiting rooms also?

[drbtg1]

222. Okay, I sincerely apologize

It was not clear to me which group of "those magazines" you were claiming were in your doctor's waiting room in post #186. Again, my apologies.

As for my patients, I had four this morning. No, I don't triple-book or quadruple-book and I had no emergencies so far. Consequently, there is downtime to allow local anesthesia ("novocaine") to take effect as well as for my assistant to conduct proper infection control procedures between patients.

[EFerrari]

117. I am so sick of the POS that passes for a health care system

in this country and I sometimes despise anyone who is complicit with the situation, whether you work in it or simply put up with it.

I'm sick of people dying or suffering needlessly FOR YEARS or being jailed or getting dead because the cannot get the tech we won't deliver.

Here's a link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5252134&mesg_id=5252730

And having said that, hope the rant helped you. It sometimes helps me.

[Lorien]

118. Name a profession or viewpoint, and you'll find someone online who will

hate you for it.

I come from a family of psychologists, and plenty of people dislike those in the mental health profession here. I was an animator for Disney for a while, and I've seen a huge number of Disney bashing posts here on DU-including plenty that bashed films that I worked very hard on. Much of the time personal tastes were the issue, other times the posts were misguided, to say the very least.Plenty were filled with extreme, disproportionate vitriol. Pity those posters; it's become clear that many of them lead secluded lives and feel no sense of personal importance or influence, so they scream and rant anonymously online, trying to attract attention, bully or give themselves a fleeting sense of power. Every discussion board has them. Just use the ignore feature; it's a useful tool.

[raccoon]

120. I haven't seen any DU threads about hating doctors.

But I am tired of the way SOME DU folks categorize the South.

[BiggJawn]

122. Hey!

If you don't prescribe based only on the "bonuses" and kick-backs and "sales contests" your PHARMA rep is running for a given month, then you'll get no lack of love from me.

I was seeing a guy like that. Had me on TWO "May cause weight gain" meds, which as we all know, translates from PDR-ish to "You're gonna pack on the poundage like a linebacker" and all the Quack could say was "Hmmmmmm.....Looks like somebody needs to work on those 'push-aways' some more...."

My current doctor is a sweetheart, listens to me, works with me, gives me high-fives for improvement...
You're that kind of doctor, right?

[zanne]

125. I call bull....

shit.

[Walt Starr]

134. Hit and run post

Links please, because I don't believe such posts exist.

[alcibiades_mystery]

136. Oh for God's sake

Now even "doctors" are the "victims" of "bigotry"!

Gimme a fucking break. Claiming of victim status has really gone too fucking far now. Hey, maybe I'm a "bigot" against dentists: maybe I'm a raaaaaabid anti-dentite! Next I'll be saying they should go to their own schools!

:eyes: :nopity: :eyes: :nopity: :eyes: :nopity:

[Walt Starr]

216. Exactly

The United States has become nothing but a victim culture. Christians are victims becuase they are criticized. Non-Christians are victims because there are more Christians than non-Christians. Democrats are victims because they are in the minority in federal government. Republicans are victims because the big bad Democrats won't let them have their way 100% of the time.

And you will be a victim after you get Punk'd because Rove is going down!

;)

[Bread and Circus]

139. "Doctors are pigs" was in quotes for a reason...

but what I often see amounts to as much. Don't take the statement literally. Furthermore, as I've been essentially been disrespected and have had ad hominem attacks strewn at me throughout this thread I dare not waste the time to "prove with links" what many of you will never see. Some of you see what I am talking about (and I feel vindicated) and some of you don't (or refuse to admit it). I'm not going to waste my time trying to build a case for those that have no intention of seeing my point of view.

Some of you point out that I haven't posted here in a while or that I don't have a star by my name. Well, I have contributed to DU in the past but my star was removed when I changed my handle after the primaries were over. It is true I haven't given money to DU since. On the other matter, I can only say that I have not posted on DU for a while because I haven't had anything to say. Lately though, I see so much bigotry and hatred on this site against all sorts of people that I am worried DU will poison itself out of being relevant. Doctors are but just one punching bag. I am on DU nearly everyday but my wife is moreso. It is her that noticed the anti-doctor bias more acutely than me.

Some of you say "physician, heal thyself" (what ever that means here).

I'm saying, DU take a good look in the mirror.

[Bluebear]

142. "I dare not waste the time to "prove with links">>>

Well, you know, you did offer the prospect in your OP, to be fair.

[MaineDem]

144. Please tell us where the bias is

And why the blanket statement that DU is biased? That's as bad as saying that all doctors are rich and only out for the money and the glory. You can't have it both ways.

How can we share your point of view if we can't SEE your point of view?

[whatever4]

154. Good to see you back on it, wish you'd throw them something nm

[rman]

157. How about putting "DU is a bigoted place" between quotes?

Why do you judge all of DU as the same, based on statements by a few DU-ers?

[Connie_Corleone]

158. When you make a blanket statement that "DU is a bigoted place"

you need to put some links up proving your point. Otherwise, you're just as guilty of generalizing as people who hate doctors are.

[Misunderestimator]

165. "Do you need links to the various "doctors are pigs" links to prove my..."

"point?"

Um... did you ask that question in your original post because you never intended to provide any? :shrug:

I have a hard time believing that doctors are persecuted here since I have not once EVER seen ONE single post doing that. I'd love to see a link. (And my dad's a doctor too... he's not a pig.)

[mainer]

174. I provided a link above. Got told: "well, that's just ONE example."

If we bothered to provide ten links, we'd be told, "Oh, well, that's just TEN examples." or 'that's just a hundred examples.'

I agree with Bread and Circus. I've seen again and again the bashing of "rich doctors" or "rethuglican doctors". It's an attitude like this that makes me think DU is not the place for me anymore. Or for anyone with wealth. Or any professional who happens to make a good living.

[Misunderestimator]

182. That sounds like they are bashing certain doctors and not all.

And being a professional who makes a good living... this place has never offended me that way. I don't get how people of privilege can be offended by the complaints of those who don't have what they have. It's like reverse racism. Makes no sense to me.

[Bluebear]

189. First of all it's not a "place"

It is a virtual grafitti wall. I've seen again and again the 'bashing' of gays and atheists here but don't say it's not the "place" for me anymore. Consider the source and move on. If it's not an appropriate post, alert on it. If the poster is a jerk, put them on ignore. Works wonders.

[tx_dem41]

168. Hear, hear, Doc.

I agree with your sentiments about the poisonous, intolerant environment that has been brewing on this board in the recent past. I hope you don't become too discouraged. Stay and fight.

[Walt Starr]

210. If you provide no links, you're complete statement can be dismissed

out of hand.

you have given me no compelling reason to agree with you.

[libertypirate]

140. Dude it's simple and I feel for you

Americans + News = Stupidity... aka. Sheeple

Why I don't know...

They hate me too...

See you tell someone that you don't believe things and for some reason your not trustable.

[Horse with no Name]

147. I think you're wayyyy off base

The OP didn't just say it was his opinion.
He OFFERED to show links proving his position.
However, he has yet to produce the links when asked for many times.
That is what makes him "untrustable", not his unsubstantiated position or his opinion.
Even trolls can have over 1000 posts.:eyes:
In fact, many of them brag about it on other sites.

[brentspeak]

145. There are some left-wing posters on DU

that have the pathological need to throw random attacks on groups they believe are part of the "establishment". Occasionally, I might see something nasty posted about physicians within a thread about some completely different topic. So, the ones here who say "B.S., show me a thread", are just being disingenuous.

Same thing happens with insults thrown against Red staters and Christians. When called on it, the response is always the same: "Yawn. Show me the thread."

on edit: In addition to some far-left posters, there are a few Freeper-types who sign up here, pose as far-lefters, and try to stir up the pot. Their goal is to alienate the moderates.

[Bluebear]

148. But in this instance the OP offered to show links

'Do you need links to the various "doctors are pigs" links to prove my point?'

Who is being disingenuous? If there is some DU injustice, many would like to see what the OP offered up as "proof".

[brentspeak]

153. You're correct

In this case, Bread and Circuses has an obligation to show examples.

[Bread and Circus]

166. Wrong, it was a rhetorical question.

Used as a rhetorical device.

I did not offer to put up links.

I asked if people needed links to see my point.

Many here know exactly what I'm talking about, because they have seen what I see all the time on DU.

Frankly, I'd like a DU senior moderator like Skinner to weigh in on the whole issue of bigotry on DU.

[SidDithers]

179. I'd like to see a DU Senior moderator weigh in...

on the issue of a poster using a broad brush to smear DU'ers by calling DU a "bigoted place". {actually, I wouldn't. I respect your rights to free speech)

Truthfully, though, attacking the DU community without providing any evidence, and then whining to the Mods after being challenged to support your claim, is pretty weak.

Sid

[wryter2000]

206. I need links

I don't care if your offer was rhetorical or not, I haven't seen such posts.

I work with doctors and respect them very much. In fact, I work in medical legal and I hear about all the bad outcomes and all the frivolous law suits (and there are lots and lots of them). If I saw doctor hating here, I'd sure notice it.

If you're talking about the "I hate rich people" thread, I don't consider doctors rich.

[The Doctor.]

223. I really would like to see an example

of a DU'er saying 'All doctors are -blank-' and no one disagreeing with it.

I'd bet what you speak of are quotes that being 'I can't stand 'doctors who' or that doctors -blank-.'

Let's see an example of such a blanket statement or an admission that this thread is merely a social experiment.

[mondo joe]

152. I agree - there is a diffuse class hostility not limited to physicians.

Months ago I posted a question about What do you consider rich?

What it came down to a lot of the time, in my understanding, was "anyone who makes more than me."

And this week there was a thread about reporter Matt Cooper which for some reason linked his weakness as a journalist to attending an ivy league school.

[brentspeak]

160. I just checked that thread out

The one about Matt Cooper. Going completely off topic, I have to agree with Mookie Wilson on one point: graduates from elite schools (like Ivys) definitely are overrepresented in papers like the NYTimes and Washington Post, and magazines like Newsweek and Time.

(look at me: now I'm being the anti-establishment, disruptor type) :blush:

[mondo joe]

164. But whether or not they are overrepresented doesn't mean they'll be

pro-repub or even simply unconcerned with Americans or journalistic integrity.

[brentspeak]

170. You're correct

If that was Mookie's opinion (that being Ivy League means one is pro-Republican or anti-average American, etc.), it's completely inaccurate.

[rman]

150. Yes, always supply evidence to prove your point,

if at all possible.

also
Unless the posts you refer to are prevalent on DU (which i'm sure they are not, or i would have noticed), calling DU a "bigotted place" is a gross exaguration.

[porphyrian]

159. Cry me a river.

I'm sure your feelings are hurt all the way to the bank.

[mondo joe]

162. What's the income threshold one must pass to laugh all the way to the bank

?

[porphyrian]

184. It's a simple formula:

Where i=total income, t=time, and e=total expenses,

If (i)t - (e)t > 0 Then laugh all the way to the bank.

[tx_dem41]

224. Assuming that "laughing all the way to the bank" means you're rich..

your formula would show if you are saving 1 cent a year, you are rich.

Ummm...no.

[porphyrian]

229. Why would you assume?

Anyway, anyone who makes more than they pay out is rich in my book right now.

[Bread and Circus]

171. Here's one.....

For you doubters, here's one of the bigoted posts which is typical and very stereotypical.

For starters, I make 50K a year. I'm also a quarter million dollars in debt due to educational and business startup expenses. Does this surprise you?

Hell, this whole thread is littered w/ the very crass prejudice that many of you act does't exist. Have any of you read the thread or just my OP?

[brentspeak]

178. It appears to be a minority

that's angry at physicians. There's no way to root that out. Some posters (the ones who aren't serial disruptors) may be bitter because of crippling medical bills or health insurance. I can see where they're coming from, though I know it's not always the doctor's fault.

You just gotta take the good with the bad, I'm afraid. ;(

[wryter2000]

215. Grow an epidermis

If I had a hissy fit every time someone was called a bitch here, which is a slap against women, I'd have to leave the place. If someone makes an ignorant statement about doctors, point out it's ignorant and move on.

[Az]

161. You will hear no such complaints from me

I have known Doctors that are incredibly humane individuals and I have known callous profiteers. Doctors are humans and can be expected to have the entire range of traits of humans.

It has been my pleasure to work with many that give of their time and safety to provide women's treatment. I have been witness to doctors that are the first to place their life on the line to save another.

If there is a villain to be had in any part of the medical industry it is the insurance companies. That and the very notion of health care for profit. I am personally for nationalized health care. And I am quite aware of many Doctors that agree.

You have my thanks and my appreciation. And I will stand with you to face down any that say otherwise about Doctors.

[Little Star]

167. Defending yourself is one thing

You may be the smartest and loyal Dr. on earth.
But 'some' of your brethren are not. I speak from personal experience. Same goes for lawyers, teachers, cops, etc. Just depends on what we have individually experienced. Defending a group may make you venerable and rightfully so. Lets look at each individual case and discuss that. Surely you are not defending all Dr.s. I believe there are some wonderfully gifted Dr.s. The truth is there are also some that are not to bright.

[MsTryska]

169. I know what you mean.....

I've seen it too, and i'm sensitive to it, because my dad's a doctor.


lots of stuff about how doctors are jsut trying to get rich because insurance rates went up, or they are part of the republican agenda or whatever.

it is pretty insulting.

[Bread and Circus]

173. Yet another sees where I'm coming from....

I didn't think I was crazy for starting this thread.

[MaineDem]

175. Sorry, doctor, I think your blanket statement was wrong

I don't think you're crazy either but you started a thread that's received many responses; you haven't offered any proof; you made a statement about DU that, frankly, I find offensive.

Was this your point?

Edited for typos.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

181. if you are still here...........

can you please provide some context.

it is impossible for me or anyone else here to have an decent discussion concerning your beef with DU if there is no context.

as i stated previously i have nothing against doctors (i work for several).

edit: spelling

[Connie_Corleone]

185. Don't hold your breath for a link.

You'll pass out.

[kath]

211. there was a link upthread to a thread from TODAY that contains a

fair # of anti-doctor posts.

[Connie_Corleone]

230. I don't know if I looked at the link you're referring to but,

the one I saw posted on this thread had 2 people bashing doctors. The OP said that DU was bigoted towards doctors. How is 2 people bashing doctors representative of DU?

[MsTryska]

253. well i was going to post soem examples, but

it seems advanced search is turned off.

[sepia_steel]

172. Some doctors suck.

Some are wonderful.

Some are so-so.

I've had all three. I hate going to doctors who dont' seemt o give a rat's ass about me. But I haven't seen much anti-doctor senitment here. Some are crooks (I've dealt with that) but I certainly don't 'hate doctors'.

[Arkana]

176. Wha...?

I don't hate doctors--the physicians I've been to are some of the nicest people I know. I also don't blame them for the current state of the health care industry.

I haven't seen a single post on DU that bashes doctors. Honestly.

[mzmolly]

188. If you see a bigoted post, alert on it. I'm sorry if you've felt

isolated here. Dr. Dean is a Doctor and we love him!

:hi:

Stick around ~ and use the alert key.

[No Exit]

190. My father was a doctor, and I always liked them.

But since then, I've seen a doctor commit treason against America--Charles Krauthammer.

I've seen a doctor lead a senate that refuses to perform its role of being a check/balance for the other branches of government--Bill Frist.

It's enough to make you not like doctors, or at least not like them in public office.

Doctors have gone from being important helpers in protecting our health, to being mere cogs in the big business that is medicine today.

There are a few bright spots: Dr. Dean, and my cousin who's a doctor who knows the Bush cabal for what it is, and my aunt, a doctor's wife, who also knows the Bush traitors for what they are.

I grew up thinking the republican party was a friend to doctors. But that is not the case. All the doctors I've known are intelligent, and they should therefore be able to discern this, and vote and act accordingly.

And finally, if you are sick of people "hating on doctors", try being a lawyer for a day. Trust me, the whining will cease.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

194. link to clear evidence of doctor bashing here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5250984

:silly:

sorry i couldn't resist dragging Dr. Phil into this.

[Amonester]

195. Honestly, I know the feeling of "words that hurt" but I just cannot

understand any good use of this method:

Hurt back as many people (99% of them probably innocent of any wrongdoings in that matter) as possible because without offending back as hard as being hurt by a few will bring proper revenge and everything will have been avenged properly...

That method never worked/works. Please use another one than "fighting fire with gazoline"...

Merci.

[bmbmd]

196. I am proud to call you a colleague, Sir.

And I agree with you completely. Not to paint the saints at DU with a broad brush, but I have also seen my share of doctor-bashing here. It is my nature to be a healer, so I seldom comment or fight back. The best revenge is to practice your craft, to enjoy your patients, and to offer a fair service for a fair price. My hope is that you enjoy your career as much as I have.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

201. Yeah, I do need those links.

I haven't seen a damn thing said about doctors, unless you take what's said about Dr. Frist to be true for all docs.

[kath]

217. See post #70 for a link to a current thread.

Also, the frequent discussions here by the anti-vaccine folks often state or imply that evil docs, in cahoots with BigPharma, are knowingly injecting people with hazardous substances.

I'm a homeschooler and a doc (currently not practicing) -- the anti-homeschooling bigotry is *quite* intense here.

[WiseButAngrySara]

204. K & R for now, to get it to the gratest...I'll read and post later....n/t

[nini]

213. I need a clue... you said "Get A Clue" where is it?

I have yet to see doctors blasted here. :shrug:

Do you need to talk to her?

[Patiod]

218. He's right - some DUers attack any conventional medicine

I've seen it, and because I do work for "big pharma", I notice it.

Lots of folks here are hostile to conventional medicine, some I'm sure with good reason, and take any opportunity to bash traditional pharmaceuticals and those who Rx them.

It's not really a "doctors are pigs" thing -- it's more a "doctors are dupes of the evil pharma companies who do NOTHING that's not pure evil".

And by the way, Bread & Circuses, I just had my life saved by uterine artery embolization, without which I would have bled to death and likely died of shock or anemia. No herbs, neutraceuticals or therapeutic touch, however useful in other instances, would have done me a damned bit of good. Nothing short of regular old conventional medicine was called for.

I interview docs all day about everything under the sun - from cancer to hypertension to pain management to schizophrenia. By and large, they are overworked, good folks who are looking out for their patients' best interest, not my (big pharma) clients' best interests.

Good for them. And good for you, B&C!

[ElectroPrincess]

227. Suggestion

DU is a HUGE message board. If you feel that you are being picked on, then I'd suggest you look inward.

In other words, DU doesn't have ONE SINGLE MESSAGE about any issue.

Respectfully,

a NON-MD

[K8-EEE]

231. What's Up Doc?

Peace on ya! I have to say that I haven't seen any doc-bashing on DU but I myself have nothing against docs. I think we all get frustrated with the general state of things (med bills, insurance hassles, being uninsured, etc etc) but hating doctors? Not me! Sorry if you or anybody else (except BUSHCO) ever felt despised here. Have a nice day and congrats on all your accomplishments, I'm really impressed!

[Czolgosz]

232. At least here in Texas there has been a falling out between the medical

community and large portions of the Democratic party over the issue of taking away Texans' rights to legal relief for careless and avoidable medical errors. Here is a link to a very good article that discusses the tension <http://www.texasmonthly.com/preview/2005-11-01/feature4>. I, for one, would like to have a dialog with doctors about how we can bring more of them to the Democratic side.

PM me or reply here if you want to discuss this.

[mnhtnbb]

233. I confess to trashing surgeons yesterday

in a post about Frist's meltdown over Reid's closed door maneuver. I'm a retired hospital administrator and I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly in physician behavior. And I've lived in towns where
95% of the MD's are Republicans. I'm married to a psychiatrist; my brother is an OB/Gyn who now works for Glaxo developing oncology drugs.
My brother is a Republican and my husband is a former long-time Dem now unaffiliated having given up in exasperation over the spineless Dems.

There are increasing numbers of MD's who support national health insurance. Boy, do we need it. It will never happen as long the Repubs are in control

Ever heard of PSR? Physicians for Social Responsibility? Check out the organization. http://www.psr.org/

[mnhtnbb]

236. PS-my husband worked nights as a janitor

to help put himself through medical school at UCLA. One doesn't forget that sort of experience. My brother had his education handed to him, even though he also worked in a lab--but not cleaning up.

[Jed Dilligan]

240. It's part of being a doctor

Live with it. Is there any profession that's 100% safe from bashing? I've had bad experiences with professional activists and public school teachers. I wouldn't bash them on the whole, but I can see how a more emotional person who had had my experiences would. Can't you just be satisfied that you HAVE done right? Or is there guilt and doubt inside yourself that gives the "bashers" power?

Also, the whole up-from-poverty, "I had a hard childhood" stuff counts for nothing in my book. Plenty of people are born rich and grow up good, others who struggled up out of poverty turn out to be assholes. Go figure!

[Deja Q]

241. To answer your question, yes. Thoug the aren't pigs.

Given all the docs I've seen in my life and how I can only respect THREE of them, something is not right. (I am not impugning your integrity...)

The insurance companies are a load too.

But the insurance companies have a vested interest to get people hooked on their products. And I've heard the stories about doctors needing quotas. So the doctor has to say you're sick to get you on drugs. Then the insurance company says you're a higher risk and ramps up the premiums. The vicious circle is self-serving and never ends. Until you die via the drug's side-effects, of course. But it's just business.

It's just business. Maybe THAT is the real bigotry, and the only bigotry that's deserved. People are people, but it's the greed that topples common sense and topples societies too. Even back to Biblical days.

[Pathwalker]

243. HEY! My doctor turned me onto DU in 2001!!!

I had seen the sign during the installation, but my own Doctor turned me onto DU, something for which I am STILL grateful.
Thought you'd like to know.

Silly me, I assumed most Doctors were as fed up with our current "Health Care" system as the ones who've made it clear to me they HATE our current system.
That being said, not all Doctors are all that great; I had one doctor order a script to which I have a life-threatening allergy and is marked in RED ALERT on the front of my chart and in my hospital file.
I also had a Doctor REFUSE TO ACCEPT my prior diagnosis of Diabetes and said I had to prove it by undergoing another Glucose Tolerance Test - just for him. Not only did I refuse to take that test, but..he's no longer employed in my area. There was one other incident, which I don't want to detail - let's just say...he sang soprano for a while. :evilgrin:

These three examples are the minority though, since most of the ones I've seen through the years have been extraordinary, with TWO being what I consider TRUE HEALERS.

[MissB]

244. Congrats on your success.

The rest of it, I don't get. I'm sure some small percentage of doctors are assholes, but I haven't seen anyone have a "hate-in" on all doctors. We usually frown on broad brushes around here. :shrug:

[DemExpat]

245. I have had fabulous and horrid doctors.....with most somewhere in between.

Just tell yourself that the bashing probably refers to those crappy experiences, and be proud that you are one of the good guys!

:hug:

DemEx

[Pepper32]

246. Damn, this thread is long.

Wow, I think this thread beats the "all Duer's hate Christians" thread.

I wonder if the "Hating on Thin Blonds" thread will tie with this one?


Divide and conquer is that the mission of these threads? I really have to wonder. Perhaps we are just bored and feel a need for drama. :popcorn:

[NNadir]

249. I don't hate doctors. Several of them teamed up to save my life.

I would be dead without doctors.

Thank you doctor. You sound like a very fine man. Thank you for your sacrifice and may you derive great success from it.

[lostnfound]

250. Doctors are my heroes.. The vast majority are A-ok

hardworking, intelligent, incredibly valuable members of our society.

They have been exploited by a greedy system of insurance/HMOs and squeezed too much with a burdensome system.

They spend years learning icky stuff ;-) and end up being on-call to sick patients. Most of them well deserve the money they make and many deserve more than they make.

Good for you for your contributions to your fellow human beings. Don't worry about a few attitudes here and there, they are not representative.

[nashville_brook]

251. to everyone: it's not DOCs -- it's healthcare management

i have almost the exact same personal history as Bread and Circus only went into creative work after college. as a Creative Director with many healthcare clients, i can tell you it's not the DOCS who deserve the heat.

as a creative director i'm the one who works closest with the client to get their message straight to their many audiences. i've worked for almost all the big corps in one way or another and many hospitals and management groups.

the problem lies with these folks who are putting the screw to the DOCs. right now any half-literate white collar criminal can go into healthcare management -- buying physicians groups and hospitals -- with the ONLY intention of LOOTING. if doctors want to build their proactice they usually have to sign on with these robber-barons in order to have access to patients, hospitals, etc. Doctors have to play by the management's rules.

i've had more than my fair share of medical tragedy. it would be easy to blame the doctors because they are the face we see on our treatment but that's like blaming your nose for your cold.

one other thing -- Family Practice docs aren't the privilaged, economically advantaged people you think they are. it's the specialists -- GI, cardio -- who make the big bucks. Family Practice physicians are on the lower rungs.

there's plenty wrong with healthcare delivery, but our family practitioners are on our side, by and large. cast your venom toward the likes of HCA and all the little wannabes. they are the real problem.

breadandcircus -- i'm sorry for your experience with the heat here. please stick with us and HELP us better understand where to place our frustration. :pals: we need to work together and the level of critique suggests the level of motivation that can be cultivated for positive change.

[mainer]

257. Link: about physician income. To clear up misconceptions:

The data is for the late 90's, but trust me. Physicians' income has not grown significantly since then.


"If income statistics are any indication, demand remains strong for family physicians but is faltering for internists and pediatricians. While pay for family physicians rose 2.69% in 1997 to a median income of $136,002, internists saw their pay drop 0.09% to a median income of $139,879 and pediatricians saw their pay drop by 0.18% to a median income of $131,803."

http://www.acponline.org/journals/news/nov98/stagnant.htm

[Avalux]

258. Locking.

Making a point can be done without attacking others.